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printshop

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weekendwarrior
November 10, 2014, 04:12:35 pm

Update: This thread was hijacked by weekendwarrior, and a series of other posters who have apparently been paid to come here and attack SafeHash. It is no longer supported by SafeHash. For news, updates, questions and answers please see the relevant threads on the KNS sub-forum.

-=+ SafeHash +=-

Welcome to SafeHash, a 100% owned and operated subsidiary of KNS.

With SafeHash, you cannot lose your initial investment. It's guaranteed.

Our mission statement is, "To Guarantee the Preservation of Investment Capital while providing a Competitive Return".



How we do this is not a trade secret at all. It's guts. Pure guts. Here's the plan:

1. Operations.
Goal: In the event of a collapse in the mining sector (for whatever reason) all investors will be able to get out at or above the IPO price of 1 NXT per share.
Plan: SafeHash will retain a minimum of 2 NXT in assets for every 1 NXT sold:
        a) We will initially back the company with NXT and dividend paying non-mining assets.
        b) SafeHash will sell shares into the bid at 1 NXT so long as it will always end up holding at least 2 NXT per 1 NXT sold.
        c) We will account for shares and backing via weekly announcements posted to nxtforum.org.
Conclusion: There will always be sufficient NXT to support a complete buyback at 1 NXT/share.



2. Profit from Operations.
Goal: Increase profits for shareholders and backers while continuing to mitigate risk.
Plan: 25% of profits from operations go to the backers (KNS and whomever), 50% will be paid as dividend, and 25% will back the sale of new shares into the future.
        a) The backers (KNS) profit on their investment once sales reach 4x our seed capital.
        b) Investors profit by retaining 50% of mining dividends, which is huge considering their capital is guaranteed.
Conclusion: Risk is mitigated by not selling more shares than we have capital to back.



3. Exit Strategy. Because all good things must eventually come to an end.
Goal: Everybody Wins.
Plan: Once the IPO has completed, we will change the 25% used to "back new shares" to repurchase shares of the company *at any price* they are listed.
        a) We will act to raise the bid if there are no asks.
        b) If there are no bids we will bid 1 NXT/share.
        c) Shares repurchased in this way WILL BE BURNED (sent to genesis block).
        c) Sunset Clause: Should we have bids outstanding for 100% of the remaining shares at 100 NXT or higher we will leave the bids standing, close the company and walk away.
Conclusion: Fun times.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2015, 06:38:55 pm by printshop »

printshop

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Re: SafeHash
November 10, 2014, 04:13:07 pm

FAQ

1. What is the official Asset ID?
--> Our Asset ID is 12699150877111554426.

2. Where can I see your financial statements?
--> We will update the financial statement for this asset in the post below, once per week, starting today.

3. I do not understand how is connected mining and SafeHash asset? I have read the IPO information 3 times and still I do not see the source of the profits. (From: blackyblack1)
--> We invest the NXT from share sales into mining assets. When those assets pay a dividend, we distribute the dividend 25%-50%-25% as stated in the OP. We also profit from holding non-mining assets as backing, even if we hold pure NXT (from forging).

4.  Can we trade existing assets into SafeHash for shares of SafeHash? (from: blackyblack1)
--> To keep things simple, this probably isn't a good idea. In the beginning there won't be many new shares available anyway, and we prefer to be able to leverage our in-house financial analysis to buy specific assets at specific prices.

5. Can't you just buy mining assets yourself and have 100% profits? Since profits are split 50%, the risks should be split too. But it looks like all risks are on the SafeHash issuer. (from: blackyblack1)
--> There are a number of ways to look at this situation, and it gets quite technical very quickly. The quick answer is, "yes, we are already invested into mining assets". Should mining collapse tomorrow, we will gain a significant amount of goodwill from the community, which we would not get if we didn't launch SafeHash. And, if mining is profitable into the future, we get to keep the assets and cashflow once all is said and done. If you're interested more in the technical side, opportunity cost discussion, etc. send me a PM, I can lay out various situations and outcomes. Yes there is risk attached, I am taking a calculated risk with this, but my experience tells me this should be a net positive for KNS and our investors.

6. What address can confirm the "SafeHash Financial Statement"? (from: futurist)
--> The SafeHash account address is NXT-X5EF-HTB2-RLYU-HW8E7.
--> We will update the SafeHash financial statement once a week (or once a month when we get larger).
--> Some transactions might be done in the KNS accounts for various reasons (internal accounting, transaction fees, repurchases, sales into high bids, adding and withdrawing backing, off-account bids, so forth).
--> We will make an effort to do all of the transactions inside the SafeHash account and/or to move the proceeds into the SafeHash account for transactions done off-account. You can expect around 5% variance.

7. Any questions?
--> Please ask questions! We will put the best questions and answers here into the FAQ, and you will receive one free share of SafeHash (when available) for your contribution to society.

8. How do I claim my free shares of SafeHash?
--> We will contact people from time to time and inform them when they have won their shares. At that time you can provide a NXT address where you would like the free shares to be transferred.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2014, 06:25:21 am by printshop »

printshop

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Re: SafeHash
November 10, 2014, 04:13:32 pm

SafeHash Financial Statement
Last Updated: November 17th, 2014
Next Update: November 24th, 2014


Mining > Backing > Shares Sold (Efficiency < %)

150,991 > 150,964 > 150,961 (Efficiency Rating < 0.02%).

Notes: Fund has been wound tight, no new shares till next Monday!
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 05:48:16 am by printshop »

weekendwarrior

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Re: SafeHash
November 10, 2014, 04:18:55 pm

this seems like a horrible asset.

as nxters we are all about proof of stake. why should we get involved in mining.

besides there are already many more mining assets around. why would we need another one.

as they say on 'shark tank'...im out!

VanBreuk

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Re: SafeHash
November 10, 2014, 04:56:25 pm

this seems like a horrible asset.

as nxters we are all about proof of stake. why should we get involved in mining.

besides there are already many more mining assets around. why would we need another one.

as they say on 'shark tank'...im out!

If you cannot bring anything constructive to a discussion (and what you say in this post is hardly constructive) I agree that staying out might be the best idea.

And this applies to any discussion you're posting in, not just this one.
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weekendwarrior

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Re: SafeHash
November 10, 2014, 04:59:25 pm

this seems like a horrible asset.

as nxters we are all about proof of stake. why should we get involved in mining.

besides there are already many more mining assets around. why would we need another one.

as they say on 'shark tank'...im out!

okay, so i have to bring 'constructive' opinions only.

is this a rule for everyone or just me?

btw, constructive means "serving a useful purpose; tending to build up."

i am pretty sure i followed that.
If you cannot bring anything constructive to a discussion (and what you say in this post is hardly constructive) I agree that staying out might be the best idea.

And this applies to any discussion you're posting in, not just this one.

VanBreuk

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Re: SafeHash
November 10, 2014, 05:30:17 pm


okay, so i have to bring 'constructive' opinions only.

is this a rule for everyone or just me?

btw, constructive means "serving a useful purpose; tending to build up."

i am pretty sure i followed that.

Yes, being constructive is welcome. Although not required for every single post. However, looking at your post history since you registered this noon, I fail to see the "useful purpose" in your posts, other than snide remarks. And the fact there is several, unrelated forum members reporting your posts in different threads also speaks by itself.

So maybe you can reconsider your way to be constructive, and come back after a few days if you want.
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JanSako

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Re: SafeHash
November 10, 2014, 07:10:26 pm

SafeHash Financial Statement
Last Updated: November 10th, 2014
Next Update: November 17th, 2014


Backing:
  • 50,000 NXT from KNS Holdings.

Assets:
  • 2,100 shares have been sold.
  • 1,140 shares of HRLTCGEAR have been purchased @1.
  • 16 shares of SAAS have been purchased @60

Shares Available:
There is backing available to sell 47,900 more shares

Note: We will perform special updates to this over the next few days as we sell our initial shares.

Man you beat me to the punch good... spent a few hours today working on an asset plan/description addressing the same issue of mining assets, but I must say your solution is better than mine :-). I did not think big enough, but I am glad I did not sell my assets to raise the 1 000 NXT to start my asset.

Now my main question:
c) Sunset Clause: Should we have bids outstanding for 100% of the remaining shares at 100 NXT or higher we will leave the bids standing, close the company and walk away.

I don't get this, could you please write a hypothetical example?

THX & Good luck.

BTW, aren't you spreading yourself a bit thin? If your NXT companies are your full-time job, maybe not yet, but are you also planning to teach at your new school?

printshop

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Re: SafeHash
November 10, 2014, 08:10:09 pm

Man you beat me to the punch good... spent a few hours today working on an asset plan/description addressing the same issue of mining assets, but I must say your solution is better than mine :-). I did not think big enough, but I am glad I did not sell my assets to raise the 1 000 NXT to start my asset.

Now my main question:
c) Sunset Clause: Should we have bids outstanding for 100% of the remaining shares at 100 NXT or higher we will leave the bids standing, close the company and walk away.

I don't get this, could you please write a hypothetical example?

THX & Good luck.

BTW, aren't you spreading yourself a bit thin? If your NXT companies are your full-time job, maybe not yet, but are you also planning to teach at your new school?

Right now I work about 3-4 hours a day on my day job, and I spend about 2 hours a day doing things for KPS. The rest of my time is free to engage in side projects like SafeHash. Luckily SafeHash is not time intensive. It requires very little time management so I am not feeling any time pressure right now.

About the sunset clause. Let's say at the very end we have 20,000 NXT a month cashflow, and there are still 500 shares that are being held onto -- not listed for sale or offered under 100 NXT. We will begin by placing a bid for 500 shares at 10 NXT a share (5000 is 25% of 20,000) and increasing that bid each month until someone sells the shares or our bid is 100 nxt per share. At that point our financial obligation is over and we can successfully close the company without any loose ends. If the money sits there forever, we might take it back and ask shareholders to contact us someday, but we would have to leave the bids up for a long time first (6 months or longer would be my guess).
« Last Edit: November 10, 2014, 08:15:01 pm by printshop »

JanSako

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Re: SafeHash
November 10, 2014, 08:26:46 pm

Thanks for the example, of course every answer raises more questions :-).

As I can see it, there are 2 types of mining assets, then ones that reinvest a portion of revenue, and those that don't. Let's leave aside the matter of LTCGear being a Ponzi or not (I know, you are protecting investors in case they turn out to be).

Your system works great for assets that do not reinvest, e.g. HRLTCGEAR. The payouts/share can be expected to go down week over week, and at some point it will not be worth to keep the asset. Hopefully long after ROI was achieved. Once the asset payouts go down, your investors can bail out and take one last payment of 1 NXT/share.

How about assets that reinvest, e.g. SAAS, or LTCShare2G? In theory the payouts from these assets should be increasing week over week. So it is conceivable that at some point in time your asset would be genuinely worth more than 100 NXT/share. Do you then "close the company and walk away"?

It is more a question of principle, are are you saying that I cannot make more than 100x my initial investment :-) (OK, + the dividends)

printshop

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Re: SafeHash
November 10, 2014, 08:46:10 pm

Thanks for the example, of course every answer raises more questions :-).

As I can see it, there are 2 types of mining assets, then ones that reinvest a portion of revenue, and those that don't. Let's leave aside the matter of LTCGear being a Ponzi or not (I know, you are protecting investors in case they turn out to be).

Your system works great for assets that do not reinvest, e.g. HRLTCGEAR. The payouts/share can be expected to go down week over week, and at some point it will not be worth to keep the asset. Hopefully long after ROI was achieved. Once the asset payouts go down, your investors can bail out and take one last payment of 1 NXT/share.

How about assets that reinvest, e.g. SAAS, or LTCShare2G? In theory the payouts from these assets should be increasing week over week. So it is conceivable that at some point in time your asset would be genuinely worth more than 100 NXT/share. Do you then "close the company and walk away"?

It is more a question of principle, are are you saying that I cannot make more than 100x my initial investment :-) (OK, + the dividends)

We could also just pay out a final dividend of 1 NXT per share and close the fund. Really that is the point of the fund, to guarantee the original investment. The sunset clause is just there to limit our obligation. If you really wanted to hold out for a 100NXT repurchase you could do so, but it would take a very long time. I suspect that most people will be happy getting out at slightly above 1, and that in order to get out first many people will try to sell as close to 1 as possible. Then again, maybe people will want us to just continue running the fund and paying out dividends forever? Maybe we can just issue a bid at one and run the fund into perpetuity until people slowly sell off all their shares? There's many ways to close this fund. The 100 NXT is like a "kill fee".

I also like your question about investing in various kinds of assets, but I should first explain how I account for what is and isn't 1 NXT per share. Since most of the fund will be held in assets, there needs to be a clearly defined policy for valuing an asset. Non mining assets will be valued at market price, at worst, liquidation price, what we can sell them for on short notice. But mining assets cannot be valued at market price, only at the price we purchased them at. Otherwise we may have a situation where mining assets drastically increase in value and we are no longer able to back the fund. This makes sense also because when we sell 1 NXT and invest it, we set aside only 1 NXT as backing. So the asset price at purchase becomes the asset value on our books.

That is why we are buying assets like HRLTCGEAR and SAAS (and soon, iHash)-- all of these assets are seen as "cheap" because they are available at or below the IPO price. This helps us maximize the hashrate we buy per share. We avoid buying assets like LTCshare2G simply because they're out of IPO and tend to be priced more expensively due to demand.

To get the best deal possible we will eventually have to start buying hardware or investing directly with a provider like LTCgear.com. cex.io might be another option but I haven't checked their prices in quite some time..
« Last Edit: November 10, 2014, 09:17:35 pm by printshop »

JanSako

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Re: SafeHash
November 10, 2014, 09:37:55 pm

OK, last question (for now).

What is the time horizon you are expecting the asset to last? I mean since you mentioned a possibility of buying hashpower outside 'assets' as such, which lasts for a longer time (a year in case of LTCGear). BTW, is it possible to 'sell off' LTC Gear, or are you stuck with it?

I am also asking because I can now see a point of divergence, or maybe a divergence in purpose between Safehash and what I have in mind. Really no point of starting something if they would just be clones of each other, might as well invest in yours.

printshop

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Re: SafeHash
November 11, 2014, 01:58:51 am

OK, last question (for now).

What is the time horizon you are expecting the asset to last? I mean since you mentioned a possibility of buying hashpower outside 'assets' as such, which lasts for a longer time (a year in case of LTCGear). BTW, is it possible to 'sell off' LTC Gear, or are you stuck with it?

I am also asking because I can now see a point of divergence, or maybe a divergence in purpose between Safehash and what I have in mind. Really no point of starting something if they would just be clones of each other, might as well invest in yours.

It should snowball based on investment. It's easier to put an upper limit on things. Assuming no one else reinvests, and all other things being equal, it willl NOW take 7 years to close the fund. But, if we sold out the 50,000 shares we have for sale now, that will shorten to 4 years.

If we sell 2.5 million shares like HRLTCGEAR did, just 14 months. So it's not a forever sort of thing, but it depends on how many shares we sell. SafeHash itself will become risk-immune within 6 months.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 02:01:21 am by printshop »

sv3n

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Re: SafeHash
November 11, 2014, 02:12:46 am

Just making sure I understand the last 25% dividend used for reinvestment.  During the IPO, 25% of all dividends collected will be saved in the fund, and an amount of SafeHash assets equal to that 25% dividend in NXT will be put up for sale.  After the IPO, 25% of all dividends will be put up as a buy wall at a market rate, and shares bought back will be burned, correct?

Quick numbers:
- 25k shares sold initially, eventually yielding a dividend of 10k NXT
- 2.5k NXT sent to backers, 5k NXT sent to investors, and 2.5k NXT held
- 2.5k SafeHash assets put up by the fund for sale due to the increase in asset funds
- IPO is over
- Additional 10k NXT dividend payed into fund
- 2.5k NXT sent to backers, 5k NXT sent to investors
- 2.5k NXT used for buy wall at market rate

In any case, when is the IPO deemed over?  When all backer/dividend funded assets have been sold, or is there a cutoff date as well?
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printshop

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Re: SafeHash
November 11, 2014, 02:27:19 am

Just making sure I understand the last 25% dividend used for reinvestment.  During the IPO, 25% of all dividends collected will be saved in the fund, and an amount of SafeHash assets equal to that 25% dividend in NXT will be put up for sale.  After the IPO, 25% of all dividends will be put up as a buy wall at a market rate, and shares bought back will be burned, correct?

Quick numbers:
- 25k shares sold initially, eventually yielding a dividend of 10k NXT
- 2.5k NXT sent to backers, 5k NXT sent to investors, and 2.5k NXT held
- 2.5k SafeHash assets put up by the fund for sale due to the increase in asset funds
- IPO is over
- Additional 10k NXT dividend payed into fund
- 2.5k NXT sent to backers, 5k NXT sent to investors
- 2.5k NXT used for buy wall at market rate

In any case, when is the IPO deemed over?  When all backer/dividend funded assets have been sold, or is there a cutoff date as well?

Yes, those numbers are correct! Except that instead of 25,000 shares we aim to sell 10 million (the IPO will be over when we have sold ten million units of SafeHash). There is no cutoff date.
(Edit: And technically, if we sold 25,000 and then 2,500 shares, then 10k would be split over 27,500 shares not over 25,000)

If no one else buys shares of SafeHash, I will buy them personally. So now that we have sold some shares, it's just a matter of time.

As a side note, it is easy to demonstrate solvency of the fund; we simply issue a buy order at just under 1 for all the shares held outside the fund. I've gone ahead and done so in advance for the first 5,000 shares. Please note that any shares repurchased this way will be burned. I won't make a habit of doing this because I expect a healthy aftermarket, but I will step in if necessary to make sure no one accidentally sells at a loss.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 03:41:55 am by printshop »

Sebastien256

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Re: SafeHash
November 11, 2014, 09:55:03 am

I bought some shares, let see of this turn out.
Please drop your ideas concerning Nxt and/or NRS in this topic -> List of feature request for Nxt and/or NRS (with the full list in OP).

printshop

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Re: SafeHash
November 11, 2014, 04:10:53 pm

Quick Announcement:

The fund is now self-contained into NXT-X5EF-HTB2-RLYU-HW8E7.

This will help accounting for things like transfer fees and how much we are keeping as backing, and so forth.
The usdbitfnx is being counted at 50nxt/share. The mining assets are being counted at their IPO prices or lower if we pick them up cheaper.

Sebastien256

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Re: SafeHash
November 11, 2014, 04:35:46 pm

where is the buy wall?
Please drop your ideas concerning Nxt and/or NRS in this topic -> List of feature request for Nxt and/or NRS (with the full list in OP).

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Re: SafeHash
November 11, 2014, 04:52:35 pm

Also, why does it have 83k SafeHash assets? If it was seeded with 50k and has sold 34k, shouldn't it only have the 15k assets left over?
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printshop

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Re: SafeHash
November 11, 2014, 05:11:16 pm

where is the buy wall?

I'm in the process of setting up the fund in it's own account. I'll put up a small buywall, but I expect the market to take care of that in the future.


Also, why does it have 83k SafeHash assets? If it was seeded with 50k and has sold 34k, shouldn't it only have the 15k assets left over?

It has less than the full number of SafeHash assets to prevent fat fingered mistakes. Our accounting is done via a spreadsheet, so we don't keep track of the exact number in KNS holdings vs. the SafeHash account (except to ensure we have enough available to sell).
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