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Stark Industries

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Pokereum Crowdfunding
« on: May 22, 2014, 06:30:43 pm »

Pokereum is an experimental contemporary community driven idea of using flat virtual decentralized autonomous organizations (DAO) to manage and develop a decentralized application (DAPP) that solves the mental poker problem using Ethereum smart contracts, Telehash mesh networking and a consensus network. The Pokereum DAPP lets you play games of poker while ensuring random number generation / card shuffling are fair and transparent, reducing cost for poker players, reducing the possibilities of collusion and enabling cheap boundless payments and withdrawals using cryptocurrencies and smart contracts. Mechanisms to enable easy on-boarding of non crypto-currency users and use stable value crypto currencies are detailed in the white paper. Smart contract based Pokereum DAPP reserves are generated from tournaments, rakes, private table fees and other business models automatically accessible with valid tokens. http://www.Pokereum.io



Account ID :: [NXT-FXNN-4B7R-VJ9J-B7PQA ]   

Asset ID   :: 8328353128552831604 

Total Tokens :: 100,000,000

Token rewards: TBD NEW( 0.000821btc to 0.000521btc  per token roughly )  ( 0.000521btc to 0.000221btc  per token roughly )

Valuation methodology : Market comparables (second opininion isildur)

We get to the valuation ranges by calculating a fully distributed value and estimating a companies implied value through analysis of similar companies operating and trading metrics. So in essence by applying multiples derived from comparable companies to similar but superior DAO/ App metrics we can extrapolate the range of initial company valuation. We could also determine value by estimating market capture, marketing and potential conversion rates and improved churn based on superior technology and incredible value proposition to poker players.






60% of tokens to nxt community, crypto and other knowledgeable donors  obsolete/restructured

55% of tokens to nxt community, crypto and other knowledgeable donors
25% tokens to Devs | board | workers
15% to Group of anonymous donor angels | friends | Family at initial stage
   
         Further Detailed breakdown or token distribution
         Further Detailed breakdown

   55% of tokens to Nxt community, crypto and other knowledgeable donors

   15% to Group of private anonymous donor angels | friends | Family at initial stage

   30%   -> 10% (DAO activity fund)
      -> 7% (free distribution to be revealed as crowdsale draws nigh) see thread ::https://nxtforum.org/stark-industries-%28nxtdice%29/marketing-5288/
      -> 6% (7 devs: 3 full time, 4 part time)
      -> 3.5% (7 board members)
      -> 3.5% (7 workers initial)






Tokens Rewards

48% of tokens to community crowdfunding, crypto and other knowledgeable donors
37% tokens to Devs | board | workers | Bounties | Free distribution | Endowment | etc
15% to Group of early anonymous donor angels | friends | Family at initial stage

Further Detailed breakdown

   48% ( crowdfunding donations)

   15% to Group of early private anonymous donor angels

   37%   -> 10% : (Pokereum DAO endowment activity fund)   
      -> 9% : (13 devs: 5 full time 1% each, 8 part time 0.25% each)
      -> 4.9% : (7 Board 2 extra, 0.7 each, 7 altogether, from *5)
      -> 3.5% :(7 workers initial 0.5% each)
      ->1.2% : (Advisors 3 available, 0.4 % each)
      -> 1.4% : (Dev Bounties TBD)
      -> 2 % : (Marketing bounties starts now!)
      -> 5% : (free distribution during crowdfunding)






Duration of  crowdfunding
Duration last approximately 30 days

Distribution of tokens
Tokens are to be distributed after the completion of the crowd sale phase



Marketing and Discounts
1 week 75% discount
2 week 50% discount
3 week 25% discount
4 week 10% discount

free token crowdfunding marketing referals
refer 15 donors ->  40,000 tokens (1st tier referrers)
refer 10 donors ->  20,000 tokens (2nd tier referrers)
refer 3 donors->  5,000 tokens (3rd tier referrers)


Rules:
No spamming…post relevant replies then engage with your offer…If you are reported for spamming your account will be disqualified
All or nothing for the tier rewards: for example you don't get credit for referring 2 people..you must refer 3 to get 5000 tokens

First come first serve : maximum people referable by one person/address is 15

If tokens are not completely claimed, They Rest go as bonus to top 10% earliest donors , board members and workers shared equally






Management of Proceeds

Operating budget to be held in multisig btc address
The rest of the funds to be held by trusted escrow , till board have access to Nxt account control or phasing
Board manages




Use of proceeds

Bootstrap Pokereum DAO operations
Fund Pokereum app development
Guaranteed player prize pool tournament incentives
Pokereum marketing/branding awareness campaigns to break through competitive noise
working capital
Pokereum salary payments
Pokereum worker/dev legal protection fund
bounties



Risk Factors / Disclaimer
Do your risk assessment accordingly and carefully, all deposits are non-refundable donation used to bootstrap the DAO.

« Last Edit: February 22, 2015, 05:58:09 pm by Stark Industries »
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DLXS

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Re: Nxtdice-NxtPoker Correction Re-issuance / IP Assignment
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2014, 12:48:32 am »

Let us know when you start selling ;P
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megashira1

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Re: Nxtdice-NxtPoker Correction Re-issuance / IP Assignment
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2014, 05:09:57 am »

Estimate on when shares will be made public?
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Berzerk

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Re: Nxtdice-NxtPoker Correction Re-issuance / IP Assignment
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2014, 06:58:12 am »

Are your names public? Where do you live?
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Stark Industries

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Re: Nxtdice-NxtPoker Correction Re-issuance / IP Assignment
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2014, 03:45:13 pm »

Are your names public? Where do you live?

want my bloodtype?  :)
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Stark Industries

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Re: Nxtdice-NxtPoker Correction Re-issuance / IP Assignment
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2014, 03:46:32 pm »

Estimate on when shares will be made public?

Looks like the early part of june..Ola still waiting on the designer and wrestly with code
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DLXS

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Re: Nxtdice-NxtPoker Correction Re-issuance / IP Assignment
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2014, 04:48:13 pm »

Hi,

It can't be bought yet, right? Why are there some buy orders already?
And, sorry for the question but I'm a newbie with the AE, we buy shares -> if they go up/down we can make/lose money. Apart from that, will we get payouts regularly (once every X amount of time)?

Thabnks!
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Berzerk

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Re: Nxtdice-NxtPoker Correction Re-issuance / IP Assignment
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2014, 04:53:40 pm »

Are your names public? Where do you live?

want my bloodtype?  :)

No. But you know, if this is gonna work as I think it should be, then you will get millions of NXT. So, who are you guys? :)
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gs02xzz

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Re: Nxtdice-NxtPoker Correction Re-issuance / IP Assignment
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2014, 04:59:15 pm »

Hi,
It can't be bought yet, right? Why are there some buy orders already?
And, sorry for the question but I'm a newbie with the AE, we buy shares -> if they go up/down we can make/lose money. Apart from that, will we get payouts regularly (once every X amount of time)?
Thabnks!

I guess it is because the asset has been created on AE and users can place buy orders for any assets available on AE.
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Nxt Mission is to commercialize the crypto technology and build new commerce and society.

Stark Industries

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Re: Nxtdice-NxtPoker Correction Re-issuance / IP Assignment
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2014, 08:16:32 pm »

Are your names public? Where do you live?

want my bloodtype?  :)

No. But you know, if this is gonna work as I think it should be, then you will get millions of NXT. So, who are you guys? :)

You can call me stark, nice to meet you   ;)
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Berzerk

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Re: Nxtdice-NxtPoker Correction Re-issuance / IP Assignment
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2014, 08:33:41 pm »

Are your names public? Where do you live?

want my bloodtype?  :)

No. But you know, if this is gonna work as I think it should be, then you will get millions of NXT. So, who are you guys? :)

You can call me stark, nice to meet you   ;)

Nice to meet you. So why should we trust you? ;)
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Stark Industries

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Re: Nxtdice-NxtPoker Correction Re-issuance / IP Assignment
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2014, 08:48:06 pm »

Are your names public? Where do you live?

want my bloodtype?  :)

No. But you know, if this is gonna work as I think it should be, then you will get millions of NXT. So, who are you guys? :)

You can call me stark, nice to meet you   ;)

Nice to meet you. So why should we trust you? ;)
You dont have to...But Ola trust me to manage the process well. Ultimately that is why the board is in place.
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Berzerk

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Re: Nxtdice-NxtPoker Correction Re-issuance / IP Assignment
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2014, 08:59:53 pm »

Are your names public? Where do you live?

want my bloodtype?  :)

No. But you know, if this is gonna work as I think it should be, then you will get millions of NXT. So, who are you guys? :)

You can call me stark, nice to meet you   ;)

Nice to meet you. So why should we trust you? ;)
You dont have to...But Ola trust me to manage the process well. Ultimately that is why the board is in place.
You know ola in reallife? :)

Sorry that I ask so many questions. But I think 90% of all assets are scams right now. I don't want to invest into scams. I want to genuinely trust the asset issuer. :)
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Stark Industries

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Re: Nxtdice-NxtPoker Correction Re-issuance / IP Assignment
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2014, 09:04:50 pm »

Are your names public? Where do you live?

want my bloodtype?  :)

No. But you know, if this is gonna work as I think it should be, then you will get millions of NXT. So, who are you guys? :)

You can call me stark, nice to meet you   ;)

Nice to meet you. So why should we trust you? ;)
You dont have to...But Ola trust me to manage the process well. Ultimately that is why the board is in place.
You know ola in reallife? :)

Sorry that I ask so many questions. But I think 90% of all assets are scams right now. I don't want to invest into scams. I want to genuinely trust the asset issuer. :)

Nope I don't, That is why no assets are released for sale until Ola releases a client
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Berzerk

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Re: Nxtdice-NxtPoker Correction Re-issuance / IP Assignment
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2014, 09:11:46 pm »

Are your names public? Where do you live?

want my bloodtype?  :)

No. But you know, if this is gonna work as I think it should be, then you will get millions of NXT. So, who are you guys? :)

You can call me stark, nice to meet you   ;)

Nice to meet you. So why should we trust you? ;)
You dont have to...But Ola trust me to manage the process well. Ultimately that is why the board is in place.
You know ola in reallife? :)

Sorry that I ask so many questions. But I think 90% of all assets are scams right now. I don't want to invest into scams. I want to genuinely trust the asset issuer. :)

Nope I don't, That is why no assets are released for sale until Ola releases a client
That sounds good. :) Thank you for your patience.
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Stark Industries

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Re: Nxtdice-NxtPoker Correction Re-issuance / IP Assignment
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2014, 09:15:32 pm »

Are your names public? Where do you live?

want my bloodtype?  :)

No. But you know, if this is gonna work as I think it should be, then you will get millions of NXT. So, who are you guys? :)

You can call me stark, nice to meet you   ;)

Nice to meet you. So why should we trust you? ;)
You dont have to...But Ola trust me to manage the process well. Ultimately that is why the board is in place.
You know ola in reallife? :)

Sorry that I ask so many questions. But I think 90% of all assets are scams right now. I don't want to invest into scams. I want to genuinely trust the asset issuer. :)

Nope I don't, That is why no assets are released for sale until Ola releases a client
That sounds good. :) Thank you for your patience.

No problem
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gs02xzz

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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2014, 03:22:55 pm »

Is there a budget plan for the funds raised from the crowdsale/ICO suppose you sell out the 60 million tokens?
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devphp

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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2014, 04:18:20 pm »

100 mln tokens @0.000221btc (~3 NXT) = 300 mln NXT? Seriously? Who would have that kind of money to buy tokens? ;)
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Vega

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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2014, 04:30:47 pm »

100 mln tokens @0.000221btc (~3 NXT) = 300 mln NXT? Seriously? Who would have that kind of money to buy tokens? ;)
Another not so realistic project valuation. While it has great potential, assuming that the demo client worth 200th of Pokerstars is laughable.
Unless I'm mistaken it's not even possible at this point to finish the project without smart contracts or something similar, that doesn't even exist yet.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2014, 04:32:51 pm by Vega »
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devphp

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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2014, 04:42:37 pm »

100 mln tokens @0.000221btc (~3 NXT) = 300 mln NXT? Seriously? Who would have that kind of money to buy tokens? ;)
Another not so realistic project valuation. While it has great potential, assuming that the demo client worth 200th of Pokerstars is laughable.
Unless I'm mistaken it's not even possible at this point to finish the project without smart contracts or something similar, that doesn't even exist yet.

200th of Pokerstars is not laughable, but NXT would need to be priced much higher before it happens. Either NXT is not ready for funding such large scale projects yet or projects need to start small with less funding and grow with NXT, in fiat market cap, that is.
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gs02xzz

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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2014, 11:45:47 pm »

How about doing a Dutch Aution to see how much the community is willing to pay for these 60 million tokens?
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BitcoinForumator

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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2014, 12:24:20 am »

I have agree with the "overpriced" sentiment. I was hoping for something more rational.

You're putting all of the risk on the investors, and regardless if the project is succesful or not, you - the founders - will be well of.
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Bitinvestor

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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2014, 12:50:14 pm »

100 mln tokens @0.000221btc (~3 NXT) = 300 mln NXT? Seriously? Who would have that kind of money to buy tokens? ;)
Another not so realistic project valuation. While it has great potential, assuming that the demo client worth 200th of Pokerstars is laughable.
Unless I'm mistaken it's not even possible at this point to finish the project without smart contracts or something similar, that doesn't even exist yet.

200th of Pokerstars is not laughable, but NXT would need to be priced much higher before it happens. Either NXT is not ready for funding such large scale projects yet or projects need to start small with less funding and grow with NXT, in fiat market cap, that is.

I have to agree here. You're not going to raise almost 1/3 of all NXT in existence. This project needs downsizing. Start small, grow big.
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jungian

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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2014, 01:07:04 pm »

100 mln tokens @0.000221btc (~3 NXT) = 300 mln NXT? Seriously? Who would have that kind of money to buy tokens? ;)
Another not so realistic project valuation. While it has great potential, assuming that the demo client worth 200th of Pokerstars is laughable.
Unless I'm mistaken it's not even possible at this point to finish the project without smart contracts or something similar, that doesn't even exist yet.

200th of Pokerstars is not laughable, but NXT would need to be priced much higher before it happens. Either NXT is not ready for funding such large scale projects yet or projects need to start small with less funding and grow with NXT, in fiat market cap, that is.

I have to agree here. You're not going to raise almost 1/3 of all NXT in existence. This project needs downsizing. Start small, grow big.

I also agree. Come on now.. 1/3 of all NXT. If that were to succeed, it would be no way to ever get ROI measured in NXT.
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mallorcaman

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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2014, 07:41:06 am »

Hi am very new around here and have not been a nxt asset holder for that long either, I work for Poker Stars and after reading through all the proposals etc I have to honestly say that allthough a decentralized poker platform of this kind is the future I dont think that the people behind this project have done enough homework most things discussed are not interpreted correctly. The IPO is severely overpriced considering the risk as far as Im concerned. I look forward to reading the next online poker idea for nxt :) Look forward to reading you all again soon

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Sebastien256

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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2014, 09:43:43 pm »

I would glady like a dutch auction like for Jinn.
Especially since the ask is very large.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 09:49:33 pm by Sebastien256 »
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Please drop your ideas concerning Nxt and/or NRS in this topic -> List of feature request for Nxt and/or NRS (with the full list in OP).

Stark Industries

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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2014, 10:57:19 pm »

Is there a budget plan for the funds raised from the crowdsale/ICO suppose you sell out the 60 million tokens?

there is a budget here now…as stated earlier, the posted info was incomplete. also the general token availability is adjusted to 55million for free give aways and initial board expansion
budget :https://nxtforum.org/stark-industries-%28nxtdice%29/nxtpoker-dao-budget/
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Stark Industries

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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #27 on: October 04, 2014, 10:57:58 pm »

100 mln tokens @0.000221btc (~3 NXT) = 300 mln NXT? Seriously? Who would have that kind of money to buy tokens? ;)

the crowdsale is in NXT and BTC…look around you'll find the right info. Also today as per internal discussion the exact boundaries of end set of funds have been edited to have none. check the post for more updated info
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Stark Industries

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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2014, 10:59:12 pm »

100 mln tokens @0.000221btc (~3 NXT) = 300 mln NXT? Seriously? Who would have that kind of money to buy tokens? ;)
Another not so realistic project valuation. While it has great potential, assuming that the demo client worth 200th of Pokerstars is laughable.
Unless I'm mistaken it's not even possible at this point to finish the project without smart contracts or something similar, that doesn't even exist yet.

whats laughable is the unsubstantiated complaint, care to provide any professional counter analysis subsequently followed by a valuation. I think it will be more productive to provide one..
the project will be done unless you don't believe smart contracts will be implemented. the dev believes so
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Stark Industries

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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2014, 11:00:37 pm »

100 mln tokens @0.000221btc (~3 NXT) = 300 mln NXT? Seriously? Who would have that kind of money to buy tokens? ;)
Another not so realistic project valuation. While it has great potential, assuming that the demo client worth 200th of Pokerstars is laughable.
Unless I'm mistaken it's not even possible at this point to finish the project without smart contracts or something similar, that doesn't even exist yet.

200th of Pokerstars is not laughable, but NXT would need to be priced much higher before it happens. Either NXT is not ready for funding such large scale projects yet or projects need to start small with less funding and grow with NXT, in fiat market cap, that is.


see updated post above...dollar valuation crowdsale in BTC and NXT
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Stark Industries

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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #30 on: October 04, 2014, 11:01:17 pm »

How about doing a Dutch Aution to see how much the community is willing to pay for these 60 million tokens?

I have neither the time or specific experience to do this, also the nxt client doesn't support it, otherwise it will be a good idea. This project will be built and run by the nxt and greater crypto community token holders, so the more capital to fund rapid development and fund marketing cost the better it will be to achieve our goals to compete in the saturated marketplace
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Stark Industries

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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #31 on: October 04, 2014, 11:06:16 pm »

I have agree with the "overpriced" sentiment. I was hoping for something more rational.

You're putting all of the risk on the investors, and regardless if the project is succesful or not, you - the founders - will be well of.

This borders on trolling, like i said provide a professional valuation and then we can compare notes, otherwise just ignore the thread…I am sure there are people who have read the proposal in detail to understand the vision.

There is nothing irrational about the price, as a matter of fact it is probably the cheapest price per token entity on the asset exchange.  If you want free tokens put yourself to good use here :   https://nxtforum.org/stark-industries-%28nxtdice%29/marketing-5288/


otherwise do an analysis and compare notes. Also no one is well off, if you understood what was going on you would know that you could benefit from this process without donating a single dime. There are bounties  and token allocations for members who help out in specific ways. see here and here https://nxtforum.org/stark-industries-(nxtdice)/marketing-5288/
Last, very board member, developer , worker, or admin will vest tokens on a monthly basis to align their interests with that of the token holders : see intro to vesting here :  https://nxtforum.org/stark-industries-%28nxtdice%29/spending-policy-and-ground-rules/

note developers are also the only ones paid a salary on a monthly basis. This highly incentivizes the developers but also makes them highly replaceable by the board if outputs are questionable

there is tldr Infographic now since you don't want to read all the info :
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Stark Industries

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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2014, 11:07:16 pm »

100 mln tokens @0.000221btc (~3 NXT) = 300 mln NXT? Seriously? Who would have that kind of money to buy tokens? ;)
Another not so realistic project valuation. While it has great potential, assuming that the demo client worth 200th of Pokerstars is laughable.
Unless I'm mistaken it's not even possible at this point to finish the project without smart contracts or something similar, that doesn't even exist yet.

200th of Pokerstars is not laughable, but NXT would need to be priced much higher before it happens. Either NXT is not ready for funding such large scale projects yet or projects need to start small with less funding and grow with NXT, in fiat market cap, that is.

I have to agree here. You're not going to raise almost 1/3 of all NXT in existence. This project needs downsizing. Start small, grow big.


Funds are raised in both BTC and NXT..the lean startup strategy doesn't work in every scenario…We are dealing with an overly competitive market. It is also the best way to incentive a DAO structure and secure incentivized cooperation in which every member of the DAO benefits from improving the organization DAO ( decentralized autonomous organization), and return value to token holders.
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #33 on: October 04, 2014, 11:08:30 pm »

100 mln tokens @0.000221btc (~3 NXT) = 300 mln NXT? Seriously? Who would have that kind of money to buy tokens? ;)
Another not so realistic project valuation. While it has great potential, assuming that the demo client worth 200th of Pokerstars is laughable.
Unless I'm mistaken it's not even possible at this point to finish the project without smart contracts or something similar, that doesn't even exist yet.

200th of Pokerstars is not laughable, but NXT would need to be priced much higher before it happens. Either NXT is not ready for funding such large scale projects yet or projects need to start small with less funding and grow with NXT, in fiat market cap, that is.

I have to agree here. You're not going to raise almost 1/3 of all NXT in existence. This project needs downsizing. Start small, grow big.

I also agree. Come on now.. 1/3 of all NXT. If that were to succeed, it would be no way to ever get ROI measured in NXT.

funds are raised in BTC and NXT.  The ROI will always be there, it will be reflected by the massively deflated price of NXT read this for clarity :  https://nxtforum.org/stark-industries-(nxtdice)/short-insightful-missive/
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2014, 11:09:31 pm »

Hi am very new around here and have not been a nxt asset holder for that long either, I work for Poker Stars and after reading through all the proposals etc I have to honestly say that allthough a decentralized poker platform of this kind is the future I dont think that the people behind this project have done enough homework most things discussed are not interpreted correctly. The IPO is severely overpriced considering the risk as far as Im concerned. I look forward to reading the next online poker idea for nxt :) Look forward to reading you all again soon

There is nothing overpriced about the crowdsale, either provide a professional valuation or just stop trolling. There has been 10 moths of research into the online poker industry coupled with years of experience as poker players for most involved in the project, given the sparse development by dev here and there. So quit your insinuative trolling with your sock puppet account. Also you work for pokerstars? care to provide some credentials?..You might actually be very valuable to the project or are you here simply as a scout ? if the later its, the more reason to get this project structure up and running
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #35 on: October 04, 2014, 11:11:20 pm »

I would glady like a dutch auction like for Jinn.
Especially since the ask is very large.

I would like that too....but the asset exchange isn't built for that. There also no time to focus on those mechanics manually
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #36 on: October 04, 2014, 11:13:45 pm »

I would glady like a dutch auction like for Jinn.
Especially since the ask is very large.

I would like that too....but the asset exchange isn't built for that. There also no time to focus on those mechanics manually

Maybe ask help from community, CfB or Triangle may at least tell you the difficulty behind this or pointing the right people to help you. It might not be that difficult to do so after all.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 11:16:01 pm by Sebastien256 »
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #37 on: October 04, 2014, 11:17:36 pm »

Note.
 leave for a week and come back to a thread filled unsubstantiated complaints… Nevertheless I was paid for this purpose and the project belongs to the token holders
There are a basic few things that should be explicitly cleared up as some people don't read the info yet jump to conclusions on what should be based on knowledge gained in their short time in crypto :

1) The specifications and information were not previously complete, I have updated his thread post and several others with more information. The full plan is still not complete.
 
2) This is a DAO decentralized Autonomous Organisation :
 directed discussions choices or options in the best interest of token holders are provided by board members of specialized experiences related to the Poker industry and market, it then left to token holders to make the right decision through voting. This is only possible because of the NXT platform and features such as phasing, voting and smart contracts for other complicated use cases

3) Funds are secured by at least five of the board members and spending are allowed according to spending policy, budget , and any new initiatives decided by board discussion to token holder voting. Actual spending is enabled through BTC copay and phasing accounts or other nxt features that mimic multisig capabilities. Spending is executed by executor

4) Developers, workers, admins, board members are all paid in tokens which are vested on a month to month basis to ensure the long term success of the project with aligning with the interests of token holders


5)Developers are paid in tokens and in BTC  on a monthly schedule. This is to highly incentivize development, while remaining replaceable and devs will be replaced if dev work output are not up to par as determined by the board discussion and token holder voting. that way Developers are incentivized to output the more value without putting DAO funds at risk if they leave for any reason. The structure of the DAO  enables a highly effective decentralized decision making with centralized replaceable development. You can liken this DAO decision making structure to bitshares DPOS…

6) This is not just a crypto project and cannot be compared to any crypto project. There is already a product market fit which comes about because NxtPoker caters to the ills of the current poker industry. NXT 2.0 platform just happens to make decentralized poker backed by a funded community possible, hence the valuation and comparison to entrenched competitors in legacy denominations.

7) Funds are raised in both BTC and NXT during the crowdsale..there is an external mechanism ola is working on to facilitate accurate documentation

8) The worst price you will pay during the crowd sale is less than 3 NXT in value, during the last week of the crowd sale…look at the posts for more accurate pricing ladder as the time draws near…this makes this crowdsale one of the cheapest per token in the history of NXT crypto crowd sales. This is to achieve a wide distribution and involvement of much of the larger crypto community as possible. The valuation take into account cost to incentivize speedy development, enter and break though completive voice, incentivize DAO structure and incentive Poker players as they consider our value proposition over the networks there are already embedded in.

9) you can become a token holder for free by perfuming simple tasks


Did I mention? I am a temporary  figure head here(to be replaced), paid to get this structure in place and allow for viral growth fueled by the mission and value proposition of the DAO backed by a community of token holders and its funds.

if you are interested in participating you can start reviewing the info here :

Here is a diagram that paints a 1000 words




Please substantiate your criticism, here is a project for your own benefit. The wise ones see the vision already.
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #38 on: October 04, 2014, 11:23:04 pm »

If not all token are sell during the 30 days. What will you do with them (the one not sell)?

EDIT: Will you burn them to genesis?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 11:28:24 pm by Sebastien256 »
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #39 on: October 04, 2014, 11:29:20 pm »

I would glady like a dutch auction like for Jinn.
Especially since the ask is very large.

I would like that too....but the asset exchange isn't built for that. There also no time to focus on those mechanics manually

Maybe ask help from community, CfB or Triangle may at least tell you the difficulty behind this or pointing the right people to help you. It might not be that difficult to do so after all.

This is true but there is so much effort behind the current strategy already, that and anonymous early investor who where made to formulated the strategy  to the fundraising and have made decisions based on that. To change this course would likely be a breach in my personal agrrement and would delay the project even more than it is...if someone comes up with a proposal toindependently with escrows, that may be doable..but again I have to talk to contractors
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #40 on: October 04, 2014, 11:30:17 pm »

I would glady like a dutch auction like for Jinn.
Especially since the ask is very large.

I would like that too....but the asset exchange isn't built for that. There also no time to focus on those mechanics manually

Maybe ask help from community, CfB or Triangle may at least tell you the difficulty behind this or pointing the right people to help you. It might not be that difficult to do so after all.

This is true but there is so much effort behind the current strategy already, that and anonymous early investor who where made to formulated the strategy  to the fundraising and have made decisions based on that. To change this course would likely be a breach in my personal agrrement and would delay the project even more than it is...if someone comes up with a proposal toindependently with escrows, that may be doable..but again I have to talk to contractors

Ok I understand.
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #41 on: October 04, 2014, 11:34:08 pm »

If not all token are sell during the 30 days. What will you do with them (the one not sell)?

EDIT: Will you burn them to genesis?


that is part of more info to be posted....but they will be redistributed to early bird donors, DAO members and people that earn the 5 million token here :https://nxtforum.org/stark-industries-%28nxtdice%29/marketing-5288/

the mechanish and the required task for the give away will be revealed later
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #42 on: October 04, 2014, 11:35:49 pm »

So if I understand well,

55% of profit is redistribute to AE shareholder only if all token are sale? Otherwise, it will be less than 55%.
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #43 on: October 04, 2014, 11:58:20 pm »

So if I understand well,

55% of profit is redistribute to AE shareholder only if all token are sale? Otherwise, it will be less than 55%.

55% is for crowdsale
5% is for free giveaway
2% to bounty publications


in the future net profits are distributed based on token holding ownership percentage

if you own .5% you get .5% of net profit

the DAO owns 10% so it will only retain 10% of net profits
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #44 on: October 05, 2014, 12:05:02 am »

So if I understand well,

55% of profit is redistribute to AE shareholder only if all token are sale? Otherwise, it will be less than 55%.

55% is for crowdsale
5% is for free giveaway
2% to bounty publications


in the future net profits are distributed based on token holding ownership percentage

if you own .5% you get .5% of net profit

the DAO owns 10% so it will only retain 10% of net profits

Ok, thanks, you should specify in the first post that 1 token is 1/100,000,000 of the net profit.
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #45 on: October 05, 2014, 12:06:58 am »

So if I understand well,

55% of profit is redistribute to AE shareholder only if all token are sale? Otherwise, it will be less than 55%.

55% is for crowdsale
5% is for free giveaway
2% to bounty publications


in the future net profits are distributed based on token holding ownership percentage

if you own .5% you get .5% of net profit

the DAO owns 10% so it will only retain 10% of net profits

Ok, thanks, you should specify in the first post that 1 token is 1/100,000,000 of the net profit.

Yes will do. alot of information to keep track of
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #46 on: October 05, 2014, 01:32:21 am »

100 mln tokens @0.000221btc (~3 NXT) = 300 mln NXT? Seriously? Who would have that kind of money to buy tokens? ;)
Another not so realistic project valuation. While it has great potential, assuming that the demo client worth 200th of Pokerstars is laughable.
Unless I'm mistaken it's not even possible at this point to finish the project without smart contracts or something similar, that doesn't even exist yet.

whats laughable is the unsubstantiated complaint, care to provide any professional counter analysis subsequently followed by a valuation. I think it will be more productive to provide one..
the project will be done unless you don't believe smart contracts will be implemented. the dev believes so

I don't need to provide a professional analysis, that's your job. I only have to voice my opinion of your valuation, first on the forum, then on the Asset Exchange. I'm done with the first one.
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #47 on: October 07, 2014, 07:53:00 pm »

100 mln tokens @0.000221btc (~3 NXT) = 300 mln NXT? Seriously? Who would have that kind of money to buy tokens? ;)
Another not so realistic project valuation. While it has great potential, assuming that the demo client worth 200th of Pokerstars is laughable.
Unless I'm mistaken it's not even possible at this point to finish the project without smart contracts or something similar, that doesn't even exist yet.

whats laughable is the unsubstantiated complaint, care to provide any professional counter analysis subsequently followed by a valuation. I think it will be more productive to provide one..
the project will be done unless you don't believe smart contracts will be implemented. the dev believes so

I don't need to provide a professional analysis, that's your job. I only have to voice my opinion of your valuation, first on the forum, then on the Asset Exchange. I'm done with the first one.

The initial professional analysis  was worked on by 2 individuals from wall street including me. This resulted in an even highr valuation based on the value propostion and the assupmtion of a demo product. So all homework is done...My comment is that your opinion is not substantiated, so if you disagree do a professional market analysis using the relevant vauation method and important touch points
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #48 on: October 07, 2014, 08:03:47 pm »

the people that run NxtPoker, are they anonymous? Thanks
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #49 on: October 07, 2014, 08:09:26 pm »

the people that run NxtPoker, are they anonymous? Thanks

Nxtpoker is to be run by a community of token holders, some are are anonymous some aren't. The board carry out the wishes of the token holders, some are some arent anonymous
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #50 on: October 07, 2014, 08:10:16 pm »

the people that run NxtPoker, are they anonymous? Thanks

Nxtpoker is to be run by a community of token holders, some are are anonymous some aren't. The board carry out the wishes of the token holders, some are some arent anonymous

and what about the people organizing this crowdfunding? How many are not anonymous?
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #51 on: October 07, 2014, 08:24:57 pm »

the people that run NxtPoker, are they anonymous? Thanks

Nxtpoker is to be run by a community of token holders, some are are anonymous some aren't. The board carry out the wishes of the token holders, some are some arent anonymous

and what about the people organizing this crowdfunding? How many are not anonymous?

I am the one 'organizing' the crowfunding on behalf of everybody to be involved. since there are no automated crowdfunding agents yet..funds are going straight to an escrow aand funds will be released to multisig account controlled by board once multisig function is available. Board cannot change anything unless Token holders vote so. See the rules here :

https://nxtforum.org/stark-industries-%28nxtdice%29/board-member-oath/
https://nxtforum.org/stark-industries-%28nxtdice%29/spending-policy-and-ground-rules/
https://nxtforum.org/stark-industries-%28nxtdice%29/bylaws-and-terms-of-nxtpoker-dao/
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #52 on: October 07, 2014, 08:29:51 pm »

Thanks for the info. Good to know.
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #53 on: October 07, 2014, 08:32:25 pm »

Thanks for the info. Good to know.

np

You will see the board members here as they officially commit : https://nxtforum.org/stark-industries-(nxtdice)/board-member-oath/
Stark wanted to remove most risk by taking on the responsibility and remaining anonymous
« Last Edit: October 07, 2014, 09:09:31 pm by nxtpoker »
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #54 on: October 10, 2014, 10:54:35 pm »

if dutch auction is of interest, automatic code to refund investor has been publish:
https://nxtforum.org/asset-exchange/java-code-for-refunding-after-dutch-auction/#msg115372
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #55 on: October 14, 2014, 01:51:20 pm »

Quote
Total Tokens :: 100,000,000

Token price: TBD ( 0.000521btc to 0.000221btc  per token roughly )

55% of tokens to nxt community


Hello, if my calculation are correct, I just realize that you are asking in your crowdfunding between ~25-50% of all the NXT that exist.

If this is the case and correct, do you realize that this is not possible to achieve?
Because, this would need that, on average, everyone that own NXT should put ~25-50% of their Nxt crypto portfolio with NxtPoker token. Which, I believe, will be far from happening.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2014, 01:59:03 pm by Sebastien256 »
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #56 on: October 14, 2014, 03:50:05 pm »

Quote
Total Tokens :: 100,000,000

Token price: TBD ( 0.000521btc to 0.000221btc  per token roughly )

55% of tokens to nxt community


Hello, if my calculation are correct, I just realize that you are asking in your crowdfunding between ~25-50% of all the NXT that exist.

If this is the case and correct, do you realize that this is not possible to achieve?
Because, this would need that, on average, everyone that own NXT should put ~25-50% of their Nxt crypto portfolio with NxtPoker token. Which, I believe, will be far from happening.


Hi, the funds will be gathered both in NXT and BTC and Damelon will be the escrow --> https://nxtforum.org/stark-industries-(nxtdice)/nxtpoker-dao-fund-escrow/
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #57 on: October 14, 2014, 04:15:59 pm »

Nevertheless, it still offer 55% of tokens to nxt community, even with the use of escrows and BTC.
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #58 on: October 14, 2014, 07:04:49 pm »

Nevertheless, it still offer 55% of tokens to nxt community, even with the use of escrows and BTC.

The tokens are not offered only to the Nxt community. Actually, the Nxt community may decide to invest nothing in this project (hopefully, it will not).
We will try to reach as much potential investors as possible - all the crypto communities, the poker communities, VCs and anyone willing to invest. The more people we attract outside of the nxt community, the better for the project and Nxt as well. Anyone outside of the Nxt community may just buy BTCs and invest with them, so the NXT liquidity is not an obstacle.
@nxtpoker is interviewing developer candidates, while Stak is busy with organization. They will soon post more information and you will find the answers of many questions.

Isildur23
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #59 on: October 14, 2014, 07:10:00 pm »

Nevertheless, it still offer 55% of tokens to nxt community, even with the use of escrows and BTC.

The tokens are not offered only to the Nxt community. Actually, the Nxt community may decide to invest nothing in this project (hopefully, it will not).
We will try to reach as much potential investors as possible - all the crypto communities, the poker communities, VCs and anyone willing to invest. The more people we attract outside of the nxt community, the better for the project and Nxt as well. Anyone outside of the Nxt community may just buy BTCs and invest with them, so the NXT liquidity is not an obstacle.
@nxtpoker is interviewing developer candidates, while Stak is busy with organization. They will soon post more information and you will find the answers of many questions.

Isildur23

In the end, is everything end up in Nxt token?
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #60 on: October 14, 2014, 10:41:27 pm »

Nevertheless, it still offer 55% of tokens to nxt community, even with the use of escrows and BTC.

The tokens are not offered only to the Nxt community. Actually, the Nxt community may decide to invest nothing in this project (hopefully, it will not).
We will try to reach as much potential investors as possible - all the crypto communities, the poker communities, VCs and anyone willing to invest. The more people we attract outside of the nxt community, the better for the project and Nxt as well. Anyone outside of the Nxt community may just buy BTCs and invest with them, so the NXT liquidity is not an obstacle.
@nxtpoker is interviewing developer candidates, while Stak is busy with organization. They will soon post more information and you will find the answers of many questions.

Isildur23

In the end, is everything end up in Nxt token?
Yes.
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #61 on: October 15, 2014, 12:10:51 pm »

Will the beta be published this friday as announced?
 I CANT WAIT!
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #62 on: October 16, 2014, 10:21:07 pm »

Will the beta be published this friday as announced?
 I CANT WAIT!

sorry for the temp letdown..I will try not do it again ::  https://nxtforum.org/index.php?topic=1631.msg118408#msg118408
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ShawnLeary

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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #63 on: November 24, 2014, 01:55:37 pm »

Did the crowdsale happen?  I added this asset onto my wallet and see no Sell orders or Buy orders?
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jungian

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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #64 on: November 24, 2014, 04:28:16 pm »

Did the crowdsale happen?  I added this asset onto my wallet and see no Sell orders or Buy orders?

Not yet. Waiting for client first..
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Berzerk

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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #65 on: November 24, 2014, 05:53:02 pm »

Did the crowdsale happen?  I added this asset onto my wallet and see no Sell orders or Buy orders?

Not yet. Waiting for client first..

I'm glad that this asset is not selling into the hype.
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innovator256

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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #66 on: November 24, 2014, 06:08:05 pm »

Did the crowdsale happen?  I added this asset onto my wallet and see no Sell orders or Buy orders?

Not yet. Waiting for client first..

I'm glad that this asset is not selling into the hype.

^+
In due time people, there have been serious revisions / re-brandings and behind the scene new dev trainings..for the patient you are truly virtuous thanks. So far only a couple of days more now.
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BitcoinForumator

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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #67 on: November 24, 2014, 06:29:14 pm »

There is competition now, Pangea. Which will put the price of Nxtpoker into perspective.
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innovator256

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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #68 on: November 24, 2014, 06:34:01 pm »

There is competition now, Pangea. Which will put the price of Nxtpoker into perspective.

uh un..irrelevant...look out for more info
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Berzerk

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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #69 on: November 25, 2014, 12:14:28 pm »

There is competition now, Pangea. Which will put the price of Nxtpoker into perspective.

If you look at the videos it's no real competition.
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Sebastien256

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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #70 on: November 25, 2014, 12:15:27 pm »

There is competition now, Pangea. Which will put the price of Nxtpoker into perspective.

If you look at the videos it's no real competition.

what videos?
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Berzerk

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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #71 on: November 25, 2014, 12:25:00 pm »

youtube.com/watch?v=C1YyatjUp8A

Also 5kBTC shameless acts to get other Cryptos to the SuperNET.. All in all I really hope that Pangea and NxtPoker can achieve their goals. But my favorite is NxtPoker. But time will tell. :)
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #72 on: November 25, 2014, 02:27:19 pm »

youtube.com/watch?v=C1YyatjUp8A

Also 5kBTC shameless acts to get other Cryptos to the SuperNET.. All in all I really hope that Pangea and NxtPoker can achieve their goals. But my favorite is NxtPoker. But time will tell. :)

competition is good, but entrepreneurs with vision and understanding of specific technical user needs and technical ability to implement into flawless user experience  are a dime a dozen...more info soon. thanks for your patience thus far
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #73 on: November 25, 2014, 03:16:25 pm »

can we get a table screenshot? :)
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #74 on: November 25, 2014, 04:50:04 pm »

youtube.com/watch?v=C1YyatjUp8A

Also 5kBTC shameless acts to get other Cryptos to the SuperNET.. All in all I really hope that Pangea and NxtPoker can achieve their goals. But my favorite is NxtPoker. But time will tell. :)
I would appreciate that if someone that is head of an organization supposedly to help all of NXT is not actively disparaging the competition.

I can understand that you have a stake in NXTpoker, but to be saying things like "shameless acts" and "no real competition" makes it look like you are quite biased and that the community wont be able to trust your statements are not influenced by your financial holdings. So maybe when lobbying for NXTpoker, you should make clear the amount of your NXTpoker stake.

Now, I make no secret that I am biased for Pangea, but I think any logical person will agree that for NXTpoker to be valued at 50 times Pangea would require some incredible amount of market penetration. Also, how did you solve provably random cards while generating verifiable hole cards?

James
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BitcoinForumator

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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #75 on: November 25, 2014, 05:01:16 pm »


Now, I make no secret that I am biased for Pangea, but I think any logical person will agree that for NXTpoker to be valued at 50 times Pangea would require some incredible amount of market penetration. Also, how did you solve provably random cards while generating verifiable hole cards?

James

EXACTLY. But it doesnt' get through for some people. I guess that Nxtpoker really must be the new Pokerstars. That's how insanely good it must be. And Pangea is a child's play by the same measurement.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 05:03:24 pm by BitcoinForumator »
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jl777

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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #76 on: November 25, 2014, 05:13:30 pm »


Now, I make no secret that I am biased for Pangea, but I think any logical person will agree that for NXTpoker to be valued at 50 times Pangea would require some incredible amount of market penetration. Also, how did you solve provably random cards while generating verifiable hole cards?

James

EXACTLY. But it doesnt' get through for some people. I guess that Nxtpoker really must be the new Pokerstars. That's how insanely good it must be. And Pangea is a child's play by the same measurement.
Privacy is quite important for any large money endeavors, like large stakes poker. Pangea will build on top of SuperNET so will benefit from its infrastructure and also has a built in mechanism for customer acquisition from cross selling and other similar demographic users, eg. neoDICE.

I was afraid of being yelled at for my amateur financial analysis, so I didnt post publicly about my feelings that NXTpoker wasnt worth 50x Pangea. I was content to let NXTpoker do its own thing, but when the head of NXT organization is making biased statements against Pangea (based on the first internal dev version of GUI), I decided I should make my position known. It is one thing for NXTpoker to say such things about Pangea, but for a supposedly fair head of NXT organization to be making statements harmful to Pangea assetholders, this is not a behavior that is correct.

I will go silent now, unless Pangea is unfairly attacked again

James
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innovator256

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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #77 on: November 25, 2014, 05:18:03 pm »

Please do not fight on this thread, and your walls of text is really not needed here. If you want the solutions to what I have been working on for the past year it will be public shortly...I made no statements against you. Handle all fights somewhere else please. Thank you.
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #78 on: November 25, 2014, 05:23:03 pm »

can we get a table screenshot? :)

You will get way more than screen shots, a 360 update. but soon. I want to refrain from posting dates again.
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #79 on: November 25, 2014, 08:28:40 pm »

youtube.com/watch?v=C1YyatjUp8A

Also 5kBTC shameless acts to get other Cryptos to the SuperNET.. All in all I really hope that Pangea and NxtPoker can achieve their goals. But my favorite is NxtPoker. But time will tell. :)
I would appreciate that if someone that is head of an organization supposedly to help all of NXT is not actively disparaging the competition.

I can understand that you have a stake in NXTpoker, but to be saying things like "shameless acts" and "no real competition" makes it look like you are quite biased and that the community wont be able to trust your statements are not influenced by your financial holdings. So maybe when lobbying for NXTpoker, you should make clear the amount of your NXTpoker stake.

Now, I make no secret that I am biased for Pangea, but I think any logical person will agree that for NXTpoker to be valued at 50 times Pangea would require some incredible amount of market penetration. Also, how did you solve provably random cards while generating verifiable hole cards?

James

You can appreciate it. I just told my opinion, which shouldn't be forbidden. I don't hold any NXTpoker stake and I also don't plan to. I was just comparing my point of view. Thanks.


nxtpoker, I'm seeing forward to your big update. Not selling anything until you can show something gives (for me) huge credibility. :)
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #80 on: December 08, 2014, 08:39:46 pm »

hello, any updates? I thought we would see something around Nxt Birthday, but saw nothing. Thanks
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rdanneskjoldr

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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #81 on: December 09, 2014, 02:45:02 am »

hello, any updates? I thought we would see something around Nxt Birthday, but saw nothing. Thanks

+1
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #82 on: December 10, 2014, 01:48:32 am »

hello, any updates? I thought we would see something around Nxt Birthday, but saw nothing. Thanks

+1

yet another delay, thinking hard about involvement and how to navigate since since I am not anon. I was also planning a public presentation at meetup with updates. I am throwing public presi out the window ... there is software, there are exciting updates waiting, some team members will confirm this. But I have been making bouts with lawyers affecting my updates, who knew writing harmless software could be potentially considered a crime, anyway will post some solutions with the updates soon, but strategy will be different.
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #83 on: December 10, 2014, 11:52:14 am »

are you going to try to comply to regulations?
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innovator256

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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #84 on: December 11, 2014, 07:08:39 am »

are you going to try to comply to regulations?

Writing harmless software is still freedom of speech and that is all I am doing, if things get draconian with people trying to make a sandwich a rock, I will regulate myself out of the jurisdiction. There are developers spread over the globe in training gearing up to take over anyways
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #85 on: December 14, 2014, 02:09:50 pm »

are you going to try to comply to regulations?

Writing harmless software is still freedom of speech and that is all I am doing, if things get draconian with people trying to make a sandwich a rock, I will regulate myself out of the jurisdiction. There are developers spread over the globe in training gearing up to take over anyways
Well Stated I look forward to updates, count on my support
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innovator256

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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #86 on: December 18, 2014, 03:17:49 pm »

are you going to try to comply to regulations?

Writing harmless software is still freedom of speech and that is all I am doing, if things get draconian with people trying to make a sandwich a rock, I will regulate myself out of the jurisdiction. There are developers spread over the globe in training gearing up to take over anyways
Well Stated I look forward to updates, count on my support
yep and thanks
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chocolate

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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #87 on: January 06, 2015, 02:34:32 am »

i want to play poker with nxt, is it functional ?


NxtPoker is a fair and decentralized global poker app using cutting edge p2p web technologies, an internal consensus mechanism and mental-like poker cryptographic schemes to implement provably fair gaming. NxtPoker is poised to take on the global multi-billion dollar poker industry using multiple competitive advantages. With gamification, the competitive advantages and other incentive schemes to improve churn rate, NxtPoker will become the leader in the poker industry potentially surpassing $3 billion in annual revenues. Profits to token holders will be authorized and dispersed automatically by NxtPoker board. Profits are generated from tournaments, rakes, private table fees and other business models. Current established centralized entities are limited in their global reach or ability to provide an objective and level paying field, NxtPoker is poised to take on the competition and fill in the Gaps.  http://www.nxtpoker.org



Account ID :: 10690038163511375508 [ NXT-FXNN-4B7R-VJ9J-B7PQA ]   

   

Total Tokens :: 100,000,000

Token price: TBD ( 0.000521btc to 0.000221btc  per token roughly )

Valuation methodology : Market comparables (second opinion incoming)

We get to the valuation ranges by calculating a fully distributed value and estimating a companies implied value through analysis of similar companies operating and trading metrics. So in essence by applying multiples derived from comparable companies to similar but superior DAO/ App metrics we can extrapolate the range of initial company valuation. We could also determine value by estimating market capture, marketing and potential conversion rates and improved churn based on superior technology and incredible value proposition to poker players.



Tokens being offered

60% of tokens to nxt community, crypto and other knowledgeable donors
  obsolete/restructured

55% of tokens to nxt community, crypto and other knowledgeable donors
25% tokens to Devs | board | workers
15% to Group of anonymous donor angels | friends | Family at initial stage
   
         Further Detailed breakdown or token distribution
         Further Detailed breakdown

   55% of tokens to Nxt community, crypto and other knowledgeable donors

   15% to Group of private anonymous donor angels | friends | Family at initial stage

   30%   -> 10% (DAO activity fund)
      -> 7% (free distribution to be revealed as crowdsale draws nigh) see thread ::https://nxtforum.org/stark-industries-%28nxtdice%29/marketing-5288/
      -> 6% (7 devs: 3 full time, 4 part time)
      -> 3.5% (7 board members)
      -> 3.5% (7 workers initial)



Duration of Crowsale
Duration last approximately 30 days

Distribution of tokens
Tokens are to be distributed after the completion of the crowd sale phase

Management of Proceeds
Operating budget to be held in multisig btc address
The rest of the funds to be held by trusted escrow or trustworthy NXT core dev, till board have access to NXT account control or phasing
Board manages fund using multisg account measures to control funding of initiatives to improve game experiences and protect token holder interests





More to come
-Stay tuned
« Last Edit: February 23, 2015, 07:40:20 am by innovator256 »
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #88 on: January 06, 2015, 12:31:13 pm »

No, it is not functional yet.
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #89 on: February 10, 2015, 01:03:08 pm »

this could be huge
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #90 on: February 14, 2015, 12:24:17 pm »

I hope you don't sell out to pokerstars, they willl probably try to buy anything they consider a threat to business. That would really be a disappointment!
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #91 on: February 18, 2015, 04:42:17 pm »

lol ok
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #92 on: February 22, 2015, 12:48:57 am »

What's the status of the project?
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Re: NxtPoker-Crowdsale
« Reply #93 on: February 23, 2015, 07:45:49 am »

What's the status of the project?

Just cross posting from here : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=964510.new#new

We have pivoted since the needs of the project evolved and still hope nxters find the project as a tool to increase utility, With a focus on user experience and several solutions to the traditional mental poker problems, we hope we can work together to create massive adoption for crypto currencies as a whole, preferable platforms like Nxt and Ethereum leading the charge. Update :



Uniting all coin communities while increasing utility through mass adoption.



 


Facebook :: https://www.facebook.com/Pokereum
Twitter ::  https://twitter.com/Pokereum
Reddit :: http://www.reddit.com/r/pokereum
Website :: http://www.pokereum.io





Intro :: What is Pokereum
Pokereum is an experimental contemporary community driven idea of using flat virtual decentralized autonomous organizations (DAO) to manage and develop a decentralized application (DAPP) that solves the mental poker problem using Ethereum smart contracts, Telehash mesh networking and a consensus network. The Poker app or DAPP basically lets you play a game of poker while ensuring random number generation and card shuffling are fair and transparent while reducing cost for poker players, reducing the possibilities of collusion and enabling cheap boundless payments and withdrawals using cryptocurrencies and smart contracts. Mechanisms to enable easy on-boarding of non crypto-currency users and stable value crypto currencies are detailed in the white paper.


Pokereum, the Ethereum - Telehash based provably fair decentralized poker DAO & DAPP project is intended to unite all coin communities and spur mass adoption of crypto currencies. The Dapp aspect is made possible through the use of smart contracts, a unique proof of stake/participation based jury consensus system and a mini blockchain weakly subjected to the Ethereum chain.

The Pokereum poker app is a DAPP(decentralized app) managed by the evolving Pokereum DAO (decentralized autonomous organization): a collective community people from all coin communities working together to achieve a common goal, voting on key issues and direction and development of the Pokereum DAPP, assisted by DAO delegates and autonomous agents.

Every decision is controlled by the community as a whole using tokens associated with the Pokereum DAO. Governance and other organizational activities will start out on the Nxt Voting enabled platform and gradually move to the Ethereum platform; a more robust system for automated enforceable decisions and distributed trust / security. All Pokereum DAPP smart contracts will be built on the Ethereum platform. For more information on how DAO’S might work see this recent article detailing a overall sample framework :: http://www.coindesk.com/succeed-as-decentralized-autonomous-organization/



White paper : https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vxjxE-7QMAvo95UzhWftWJ3Ke_gAoNLTQQEudNeUQeY/edit

Private review session : Jeremie Miller (Telehash), Vitalik Buterin (Ethereum), Patrick Mazzotta (chief editor/Dev lead), Juan Pastas(dev), Ron Gross (board), Adam B Levine(LTB), John Light (P2P Connects), Jacelace


Screenshot


This is by no means an indication of our current development stage, This is just a sneak peak to the quality of interface we hope you’d love. Expect a video teaser overview of an actual gameplay experience of the client in a few days. ( See “Project status” section)



Purpose:
  • Bring in the massive poker user base using a beautiful and enticing front-end user experience
  • Leverage crypto currency core users to make payments easy for new crypto poker players
  • Provide a provably fair system, fairly resistant to collusion and impossible to game
  • Unite crypto-currency communities making Pokereum games currency agnostic
  • Improve the utility of your “coin while helping to bring in massive poker user base



Project Highlights:
  • Impeccable front end user experience, not just any ol “GUI”
  • Easy new crypto user on-boarding by providing new users with options to pre-fund accounts, requesting funds from other crypto poker players localbitcoins style with smart contract escrow
  • Provably fair random number generation and encrypted card permutation generation
  • Multiple anti-collusion mechanisms including :
      -Table stake group access randomization and challenge response jury pool authentication
      -deployment of low EV dispersible bots at low capacity
  • Leveraging stable value currencies like Nubits or BITUSD in addition to projects like “etherex" decentralized exchange for pokereum game chips
  • Dapp reserves; valid DAO tokens access Pokereum dapp smart contract holdings of earnings proportional to token amounts



Notable Portions of System of contracts
  • Stable value currencies
  • Alt-coin payment integration (coin community collaborations needed)
  • Request and exchange :: Fiat payments easy access regular players
  • Dapp reserves



Project Status :
  • Front-end client : 85 % complete (lookout for a video teaser next monday march 2nd)
  • Telehash based p2p poker chat component : 95%
  • Poker library : 100% complete
  • White paper : refinement stage
  • Backend smart contract system : refining stage / some development
  • Consensus systems : refining stage / some development



Dev Team
  • Innovator256 (Ola)
  • Momentum
  • Juan
  • Salam
  • Armator
  • You +  see link on how to get involved :

we use a javascript stack from front-end to back except for the ethereum solidity

Need more Devs, full time, part time and or coin collaborators. salaries, tokens, bounties. Get in where you fit in. All tokens earnings are on a vested schedule
See link on how to get involved :  https://nxtforum.org/stark-industries-(nxtdice)/dao-board-and-workers-(-decentralized-autonmous-organisation-)/


Social Media Manager
  • Jacelace



Community Managers
  • You + see link on how to get involved :
https://nxtforum.org/stark-industries-(nxtdice)/dao-board-and-workers-(-decentralized-autonmous-organisation-)/
[/list]

Need up to 7 to start out, you should poses a rational mind and good forum history. Also an understanding of the DAO vision is a must (Read white paper, bylaws etc).  All tokens earnings are on a vested schedule. Contact Stark and see link for more details :



Pokereum DAO Delegates

  • Stark (Temporary executor)
  • Ron Gross (Tentative)
  • Ericcart (Pending)
  • You + see link on how to get involved :
    • https://nxtforum.org/stark-industries-(nxtdice)/dao-board-and-workers-(-decentralized-autonmous-organisation-)/
        Need up to 7 for DAO Multi-signature distributed trust of resources and DAO community voting. Must understand DAO vision, trustworthy public and private entities with good reputations and forum history welcome. Tokens are earned on a vested schedule. Contact Stark and see links for more details :

        Vesting basics :
      http://thestartuptoolkit.com/blog/2013/02/equity-basics-vesting-cliffs-acceleration-and-exits/

      Bylaws :
      https://nxtforum.org/stark-industries-(nxtdice)/bylaws-and-terms-of-nxtpoker-dao/

      Board member oath :
      https://nxtforum.org/stark-industries-(nxtdice)/board-member-oath/

      Spending policy :
      https://nxtforum.org/stark-industries-(nxtdice)/spending-policy-and-ground-rules/



      Last but not least :: See information on how to get free tokens :

      100 million tokens total, 7 million given out for free. 5 million during the crowdfunding period. 2 million given out before crowdfunding for marketing help.
       https://nxtforum.org/stark-industries-(nxtdice)/marketing-5288/


      White Paper tl;dr Important Tidbits


      Parent chain and Security

      Parent chain is the ethereum chain on which the Pokereum “Ringed chain” relies. Information block information is stored and retrieved from the ethereum blockchain by new nodes joining the network
         
      Anti-collusion
         
      Multi-strategy anti-collusion mechanisms using:
      -Table stake group access randomization and challenge response jury pool authentication
      -deployment of low EV dispersible bots at low capacity

         
      Trustworthiness and Sybil Resilience

      Foundation for anti-collusion and a basis for the security of the jury pool consensus system. Using an account effective stake, account velocity and participation as a unit for determining eligibility to the jury consensus pools

      Provably fair random number and shuffling
      Multiple random inputs from jury pool nodes are sent to contracts and combined for an increased entropic seed to random number generation, generating multiple encrypted decks by adding and increasing nonces. Multitude of encrypted cards and keys can be generated and stored in decentralized storage until ready for use by the network.

      Multi-Networks Player Nodes:
      A pokereum node consist of  an ethereum connected light client , ability to use the whisper protocol alongside decentralized storage and telehash enabled mesh RTC


      Jury Pools
      These are subsets of the network nodes selected to pools using random information passed to the Pokereum network by the system of ethereum contract in addition to their effective stake, account velocity/participation to perform important task on behalf of the Pokereum network as a whole



      Check Points
      Specific points in the Ethereum blockchain where new nodes can download old information to be sure they have the correct state of the network


      Epochs Ringed blockchain   
      24 hour, 1 hour intervals. 1 hour is an epoch. Every 25th hour epoch is overwritten by a new 1st hour epoch. each current hour represents the current state of the network

      Player gamification point system
      Ten ranks represented by 10 badges. Each rank constitutes a certain number of points. Top ranking nodes are rewarded with rake backs, free private tables, free tournament entries and more as the network matures

      Pokereum DAO
         The Pokereum DAO  is in charge of the management of the Pokereum DAPP.
         Members consists of individuals, establishments or autonomous agents. Every
         member of the DAO is incentivized to contribute to the long term success of the DAPP



      Crowdfunding date: TBD by DAO (DAO delegates needed)


      Most of all, no promises made, no outcome is certain. This is an experiment and you are welcome to be part of it, to help dictate its future. Thank you.

      Innovator256
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rudeboi

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Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
« Reply #94 on: February 23, 2015, 08:02:28 am »

Shame that you have moved away from the nxt platform.
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innovator256

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Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
« Reply #95 on: February 23, 2015, 08:07:38 am »

Shame that you have moved away from the nxt platform.

Well its not moved completely, we hope the governance: voting etc will remain on the Nxt platform. But we need smart contracts and the Nxt Devs plan to implement smart contracts further down the line. Look at it this way, Nxt community can promote the app with use of Nxt, since theoretically any currency can be used, it just depends on who can promote best.

Edit : remember this is a DAO across all communities, but but any one of the communities could emerge as the top controllers. You control by access to tokens and the free distribution has started, see here : https://nxtforum.org/stark-industries-(nxtdice)/marketing-5288/

« Last Edit: February 23, 2015, 08:16:48 am by innovator256, Reason: more info »
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rudeboi

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Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
« Reply #96 on: February 23, 2015, 08:40:56 am »

Shame that you have moved away from the nxt platform.

Well its not moved completely, we hope the governance: voting etc will remain on the Nxt platform. But we need smart contracts and the Nxt Devs plan to implement smart contracts further down the line. Look at it this way, Nxt community can promote the app with use of Nxt, since theoretically any currency can be used, it just depends on who can promote best.

Edit : remember this is a DAO across all communities, but but any one of the communities could emerge as the top controllers. You control by access to tokens and the free distribution has started, see here : https://nxtforum.org/stark-industries-(nxtdice)/marketing-5288/
Thanks, fully understand that nxt doesn't have SC yet. I had a scan read of the white paper still looks very interesting.

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patrickgamer

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Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
« Reply #97 on: February 23, 2015, 02:42:02 pm »

Hi guys,

I'm one of the devs on the project - if you have any questions about the whitepaper, I'd be happy to respond to any queries you may have. :)
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MadCow

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Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
« Reply #98 on: March 19, 2015, 12:23:41 am »

Very nice interview with Ola & Patrick from Pokereum on "P2P Connects Us" (from the 'Letstalkbitcoin' stable of podcasts).

Interview starts approx 15.10

https://letstalkbitcoin.com/blog/post/p2p-connects-us-episode-fourteen-pokereum

Great work guys!!

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John Smith

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Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
« Reply #99 on: March 23, 2015, 08:17:51 pm »

It seems impossible to enter a true discussion on this subject.  I would like to discuss/learn about the whitepaper, I'm sure I can be useful but the paper does not clear up my perspective.  Can there be a discussion where knowledgeable peoples are present?  Is this to take place only on the whitepaper?

Everyone is seemingly like ghosts, which is fine, privacy and everyone is busy, but it seems like there is something to focus on and wrap up.



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patrickgamer

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Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
« Reply #100 on: March 23, 2015, 08:39:50 pm »

Can there be a discussion where knowledgeable peoples are present?
We've answered several questions at our Reddit thread (/r/Pokereum/ I'm not allowed to post external links, but it's been posted above), feel free to jump in there. Or if you like, you can ask questions here.
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John Smith

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Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
« Reply #101 on: March 23, 2015, 09:04:20 pm »

thx, I know of the link.  I probably have many little questions, so far there has never been anyone around to chat up about the subject (seemingly), nice if you are quick to respond to  a few back and forthys.
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patrickgamer

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Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
« Reply #102 on: March 23, 2015, 09:20:12 pm »

Totally.
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John Smith

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Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
« Reply #103 on: April 13, 2015, 04:19:22 pm »

Totally.
Really, because all i get is MIA no responses. 

Are there really people working on this project, or just screen shots and time lines getting pushed forward?

Would be nice to have a discussion so poker players can understand.  Not sure at all how you plan to offer a community a decentralized product they have no say in the creation of.  You cannot solve/implement this from this perspective.

Are there real people here?  This is what I want to know...years into this, and still NO RESPONSE.
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innovator256

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Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
« Reply #104 on: April 13, 2015, 05:02:41 pm »

Totally.
Really, because all i get is MIA no responses. 

Are there really people working on this project, or just screen shots and time lines getting pushed forward?

Would be nice to have a discussion so poker players can understand.  Not sure at all how you plan to offer a community a decentralized product they have no say in the creation of.  You cannot solve/implement this from this perspective.

Are there real people here?  This is what I want to know...years into this, and still NO RESPONSE.

Right now the team is growing and foundation is being set. This is a community project, but a framework starting point has to be built to enable those discussions. So if you are truly interested in contributing have some patience. You will see soon, this is not about some pump and dump asset speculation. Its about using decentralized technologies to steer a decentralized membership driven organization....Nxt voting and phasing play a huge role, before transitioning to a more robust all encompassing system.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2015, 05:08:45 pm by innovator256 »
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yassin54

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Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
« Reply #105 on: April 13, 2015, 05:08:39 pm »

just question
yu use nxt or etherum?
thanks

innovator256

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Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
« Reply #106 on: April 13, 2015, 05:12:48 pm »

just question
yu use nxt or etherum?
thanks

Nxt for the Pokereum DAO (decentralized voting, resource management 'phasing/multi-sig etc...) org to start...

The DAPP itself is built on ethereum smart contract system. But nxt is planned to be incorporated for payments considering tools like shapeshift and the edollar for stability (http://makerdao.com/index.php?topic=1626.0)

Its just a matter of who promotes their currency the best using the Pokereum DAPP
« Last Edit: April 13, 2015, 05:16:48 pm by innovator256 »
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yassin54

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Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
« Reply #107 on: April 13, 2015, 05:17:02 pm »

just question
yu use nxt or etherum?
thanks

Nxt for the Pokereum DAO org to start...

The DAPP itself is built on ethereum smart contract system. But nxt is planned to be incorporated for payments considering tools like shapeshift and the edollar for stability (http://makerdao.com/index.php?topic=1626.0)

Its just a matter of who promotes their currency the best using the Pokereum DAPP

thank you
when i can invest in asset id?
thanks

« Last Edit: April 13, 2015, 05:22:32 pm by yassin54 »
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innovator256

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Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
« Reply #108 on: April 13, 2015, 05:21:56 pm »

just question
yu use nxt or etherum?
thanks

Nxt for the Pokereum DAO org to start...

The DAPP itself is built on ethereum smart contract system. But nxt is planned to be incorporated for payments considering tools like shapeshift and the edollar for stability (http://makerdao.com/index.php?topic=1626.0)

Its just a matter of who promotes their currency the best using the Pokereum DAPP

thank you
when i can invest in asset id?
thanks

Sorry not at the moment...There is much more to put out before any crowdfunding effort from internal consensus. You could earn free tokens bounties for marketing though.

edit : ...
« Last Edit: April 13, 2015, 05:25:08 pm by innovator256 »
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yassin54

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Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
« Reply #109 on: April 13, 2015, 05:23:24 pm »

just question
yu use nxt or etherum?
thanks

Nxt for the Pokereum DAO org to start...

The DAPP itself is built on ethereum smart contract system. But nxt is planned to be incorporated for payments considering tools like shapeshift and the edollar for stability (http://makerdao.com/index.php?topic=1626.0)

Its just a matter of who promotes their currency the best using the Pokereum DAPP

thank you
when i can invest in asset id?
thanks

Sorry not at the moment...There is much more to put out before any crowdfunding effort from internal consensus. You could earn free tokens bounties for marketing though.
ok i wait
thank you and good luck for yur project  ;)

innovator256

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Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
« Reply #110 on: April 13, 2015, 05:25:25 pm »

just question
yu use nxt or etherum?
thanks

Nxt for the Pokereum DAO org to start...

The DAPP itself is built on ethereum smart contract system. But nxt is planned to be incorporated for payments considering tools like shapeshift and the edollar for stability (http://makerdao.com/index.php?topic=1626.0)

Its just a matter of who promotes their currency the best using the Pokereum DAPP

thank you
when i can invest in asset id?
thanks

Sorry not at the moment...There is much more to put out before any crowdfunding effort from internal consensus. You could earn free tokens bounties for marketing though.
ok i wait
thank you and good luck for yur project  ;)

Thanks :)
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patrickgamer

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Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
« Reply #111 on: April 13, 2015, 07:47:22 pm »

Totally.
Really, because all i get is MIA no responses. 

Are there really people working on this project, or just screen shots and time lines getting pushed forward?

Would be nice to have a discussion so poker players can understand.  Not sure at all how you plan to offer a community a decentralized product they have no say in the creation of.  You cannot solve/implement this from this perspective.

Are there real people here?  This is what I want to know...years into this, and still NO RESPONSE.
??? ??? ???

That's not really fair, considering you PM'd me twice and I responded in both instances in <3h (screencast.com/t/1RMoDxPwbeO8). I suppose I shouldn't indulge PM's moving forward in order to avoid this mixup in the future.
 :(
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John Smith

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Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
« Reply #112 on: April 14, 2015, 07:29:21 pm »

Totally.
Really, because all i get is MIA no responses. 

Are there really people working on this project, or just screen shots and time lines getting pushed forward?

Would be nice to have a discussion so poker players can understand.  Not sure at all how you plan to offer a community a decentralized product they have no say in the creation of.  You cannot solve/implement this from this perspective.

Are there real people here?  This is what I want to know...years into this, and still NO RESPONSE.
??? ??? ???

That's not really fair, considering you PM'd me twice and I responded in both instances in <3h (screencast.com/t/1RMoDxPwbeO8). I suppose I shouldn't indulge PM's moving forward in order to avoid this mixup in the future.
 :(
Ya its not fair that I highlighted "no response", however, I was more looking for dialogue, on the subject.  Seems to be what might be called some form of "internal" dialogue, and then a lot of public "please be patient".  I found though that there is generally a more immediate response to negative posts.

I think we decided we would move the discussion to the reddit forum, it seems I deleted my posts/comments/questions when it seemed there was little to no dialogue to be found.
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patrickgamer

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Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
« Reply #113 on: April 14, 2015, 07:42:54 pm »

Ya its not fair that I highlighted "no response", however, I was more looking for dialogue, on the subject.  Seems to be what might be called some form of "internal" dialogue, and then a lot of public "please be patient".  I found though that there is generally a more immediate response to negative posts.

I think we decided we would move the discussion to the reddit forum, it seems I deleted my posts/comments/questions when it seemed there was little to no dialogue to be found.

Respectfully, I read through and responded to all your posts (including Reddit if memory serves correctly). As I recall, my last response called out an issue with one of your assumptions about our project, and I asked for further clarification to see if I misunderstood something you said. If the posts you deleted weren't responded to, you could have poked me instead of assuming the worst. I probably just missed it, I'm certainly not purposefully ignoring you...

If you have constructive input to offer, I'm all ears. Deleting a post on Reddit doesn't really help though (i.e. I can't go back now to reply). We want to offer any clarifications we can on our project, but as innovator256 pointed out, we're juggling a lot of balls right now. So early in the project, I don't see why near real-time responses are so important to you...

Obviously, there's been some kind of mixup. Please repost your questions here or on Reddit and we'll get to them. It won't be in real-time, but if your questions/input are worthwhile then timing shouldn't be a big factor.
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John Smith

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Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
« Reply #114 on: April 14, 2015, 07:56:20 pm »


Respectfully, I read through and responded to all your posts (including Reddit if memory serves correctly). As I recall, my last response called out an issue with one of your assumptions about our project, and I asked for further clarification to see if I misunderstood something you said. If the posts you deleted weren't responded to, you could have poked me instead of assuming the worst. I probably just missed it, I'm certainly not purposefully ignoring you...

If you have constructive input to offer, I'm all ears. Deleting a post on Reddit doesn't really help though (i.e. I can't go back now to reply). We want to offer any clarifications we can on our project, but as innovator256 pointed out, we're juggling a lot of balls right now. So early in the project, I don't see why near real-time responses are so important to you...

Obviously, there's been some kind of mixup. Please repost your questions here or on Reddit and we'll get to them. It won't be in real-time,
One clarification is that you seem to admit you are attempting a decentralized poker platform, rather than the "decentralization of poker" which are similar but different.  That was something we weren't connecting properly on.

I want to learn about everything.

Specifically in regards to the paper, and I'm not so comfortable just posting my questions in that I'm not suggesting I am knowledgeable (especially relative to your team), but you mentioned that you had done research and decided bots aren't a reality.  However, for example, Alberta Canada has a team that effectively solved No Limit hold and so at best I think we can say that bots are on their way. 

To extend that, if you create a profitable game then bots will necessarily arise (if its not a profitable game then you couldn't get skilled players to support it).  And so I was hoping to extend some of the discussion further in that regard:

wealthofchips
Quote
Let’s assume bots are real, and can play perfect equilibrium poker. Profitable poker games might necessarily fill up with bots, that can then collude both as nodes and on the table.  Then much of the real world bitcoin economics applies, as to the risk/rewards/costs of creating bots and bot rings.

IF these bots/nodes can be put in a decentralized equilibrium AND they could also create/maintain private games…then players could pay rake to this lower level bot infested ring, in order that they may organize and create their own intended poker game (or variants of :) ).

This way bots have incentive to hold up the network AND to be honest as a jury pool. Players are free to create their own games and fields, provided they pay the necessary market equilibrium costs.

Quote
    Cepheus (SEE-fee-us) is the first computer program to play an essentially perfect game of poker.

    Cepheus plays heads-up limit Texas hold’em poker. This is the game that was popularized by a series of high-stake matches chronicled in the book, The Professor, the Banker, and the Suicide King, by Michael Craig in 2005. A perfect solution to the game is a strategy that is guaranteed to not lose money in the long run. While Cepheus does not play perfectly, it is so close to perfect that even after playing an entire lifetime of poker against it — over 60 million hands — it is impossible to tell the difference. It is essentially perfect.

Also hoping to understand the proof of stake concept in regards to a players bankroll.  I'm not confident I understand.

I have links but it seems there is a censor for posting them.

I saw this:
Quote
but if your questions/input are worthwhile then timing shouldn't be a big factor.
And this:
Quote
It would be great to have more poeple as part of the pokereum DAO who actually took time to read and understand the whitepaper
Not sure if they apply or are directed at me.  I cannot say I can be useful, but I can say I would like to be.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2015, 08:01:43 pm by John Smith »
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patrickgamer

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Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
« Reply #115 on: April 15, 2015, 02:21:39 pm »

Quote
Let’s assume bots are real, and can play perfect equilibrium poker…
and
Quote
Cepheus (SEE-fee-us) is the first computer program to play an essentially perfect game of poker
That’s a really huge assumption. I know of Cepheus, but there are a number of reasons why this isn’t a real-life situation yet:
  • it’s still under research (the software is running and you can play Cepheus, but no papers have been published yet and by the research team’s own admission, they aren’t finished their work yet)
  • it is stand-alone – the research being conducted in a vacuum, and while Cepheus is playing human players, it’s not playing copies of itself yet.
  • it’s not a bot. Cepheus is software consumes a LOT of CPU resources – this is not software that is easily (or cheaply) spawned. It’s like calling Deep Blue a bot. Cepheus can’t be (and wasn’t designed to be) scaled up into a large network. For example
    Quote from: ”Cepheus website”
    Cepheus follows a pre-computed strategy which requires 12 terabytes of compressed storage. Reading the necessary information from disk and decompressing it to answer your strategy query takes a bit of time. If the page is busy, it may take a while to process your request.
    While it can play a very good game of poker in a controlled environment, it’s not ready to unleash into the real world of poker just yet…
  • this assumption trivializes the magic needed to interface with a game client’s UI (it’s not impossible, but it’s not easy either)
  • even passing all of this, the assumption implies that there is a cost-benefit reward in doing so – something I really don’t see just yet. Each instance of your bot needs to be making more than the cost of running it + rakes + losses. On razer-thin margins for success (playing a perfect had of poker does not guarantee winning the hand) and high costs associated with operating Cepheus, there just isn’t the necessary ROI (return on investment) for a potential bot operator.

But... with those clarifications made, let’s entertain this assumption anyway!  :D
Quote
IF these bots/nodes can be put in a decentralized equilibrium AND they could also create/maintain private games…
Players in the Pokereum network cannot make their own public tables. They may join public tables through our table matching system, or they may host private games. To play in a private game, your account must have an existing relationship (i.e. “be friends”) with the host. Hosts of private games may not invite random people, and there’s no way to publicize your table. So, for this to be a concern, you will have to manually mature/cultivate real-life connections with other players on the network (for each bot account), or augment your current poker bot to also be a socialization bot too (if you cracked that nut, you’ve got way more profitable places to be running your bots than online poker).
Quote
then players could pay rake to this lower level bot infested ring, in order that they may organize and create their own intended poker game (or variants of  )
We don’t plan on having players within the network collect rakes, and I don’t see this happening any time soon. The whole concept of the rake comes from the premise that the hosting party is adding value to the players sitting at a table. At a casino, that’s the free drinks, security, and professional dealer; in conventional online poker this is the software used. Pokereum will set and collect it’s rakes on the premise that our network adds value by a) having lower rakes than other online venues, b) providing a trustless system that can’t be tampered with by “internal staff/admins,” and c) making it super easy to participate in online poker from anywhere using a number of different cryptocurrencies. We obviously offer extra value-adds through UI, social mechanisms, fair table matching, opening doors to mainstream DAO concepts, etc. Personally though, that A-B-C list is what I tell people the core value is to *mainstream players*.

Quote
Profitable poker games might necessarily fill up with bots, that can then collude both as nodes and on the table.  Then much of the real world bitcoin economics applies, as to the risk/rewards/costs of creating bots and bot rings.
You really need to read and understand our point on Sybil resilience (Trustworthiness and Sybil Resilience). Each player in the Pokereum network is graded on a number of metrics to establish how trustworthy they are. The idea of “flooding the network with bots” trivializes the work and time required to build this reliability score on a per-client basis. This is a huge part of what it takes to build a trustless system: the mechanics involved that let you earn your rep can’t be bypassed or circumvented. Yes, you could try to game the system, but the costs (in time and money) to do that directly affect the ROI for potential cheaters. I can only think of two real-world scenarios in which we’ll see something like this happen, and neither seem very likely/realistic:
  • there is a person/group looking/willing to loose millions of dollars just to be able to say they gamed our network
  • we’ve made a massive error in our security approach which gets exploited AND we don’t fix it quickly
So with all this said, you (and probably some readers) are still concerned about colluding bots. For whatever reason, I’m still willing to throw some numbers out for you.

NOTE:Our table matching is not PURE randomness. As mentioned (above and in our paper) there is a player trust metric that is computed and used as part of the matching algorithm (which includes but is not limited to player velocity). However, it’d be fair to say that for a group of players who all have the exact same “trust score” (TS for short), seat assignment would appear very randomized to a third-party observer. It would not, however, be fair to say that it would be common (or even likely) to see many literal matches of TS scores. This is just for the purpose of offering a simple to understand example.

NB: … I started going into a simple “intro to stats using Pokereum” walkthrough on how the numbers are derived, but it was taking forever. I don’t have time to write out a hand-holding on the stats, so here’s the bottom line and you can double check my work with the conditions provided...

So, let’s say you have a team of 10 bot accounts that all had the exact same TS (a very generous and unlikely count), which fell in with another 990 players who also had this precise TS.

For a single table with 10 seats populated by 1000 player accounts with the exact same TS (of which you have 10 bots), the probability that you can get two bots into the same table is 3.8836859e-19 %. Most decimal-fraction converters round this to 0/1.
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John Smith

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Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
« Reply #116 on: April 15, 2015, 05:05:55 pm »

I appreciate the answer, and I am not trying to do anything but understand.  I am less worried about actual colluding bots and more concerned about a flaw-less solution with no theoretical security leaks.

I am not clear on how a bot is likely to have a lower trust score than a human.  I have read the sections in the whitepaper many times, but often I do not always natural see others points. Also I need to understand from a player's point of view and a from a bot owners view the economics of my "bankroll". 

Or in other words why is is financially difficult to set up a bot with a bankroll but not for a human.  So far all I seem to gather is that the human must also tie up a considerable amount of money?  How does this work in relation to 1 play playing multiple tables.

One other point I meant to make, and I hope you do not feel you must defend yourselves, but if its random seating only then it is quite a niche solution, since much of poker involves choosing your seat and who you play with.

I hope you can clarify the above for me, it is what I am most interested in understanding, especially from a players point of view, and I suppose this isn't the best place for this, but I hope we can clarify this for me soon, thx!
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patrickgamer

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Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
« Reply #117 on: April 15, 2015, 05:57:36 pm »

Quote from: ”John Smith”
I am not clear on how a bot is likely to have a lower trust score than a human.
I can’t give you the exact form by which we calculate a TS, but the factors will include how well funded accounts are, how old they are, how accounts perform in games, how accounts perform during match-making process (i.e. pre-game and out-of-game activity), etc. Our metrics are tuned to human behaviour in and out of games, and even the statistically best poker software won’t be able to emulate honest human activity.

There are also “tells” that cheaters (bots or otherwise) have when they are trying to game a system. It’s important to note that while your line of questioning is centred around bots, a truly trustless system should handle human cheaters as well as bot cheaters.

Quote from: ”John Smith”
Or in other words why is is financially difficult to set up a bot with a bankroll but not for a human.  So far all I seem to gather is that the human must also tie up a considerable amount of money?  How does this work in relation to 1 play playing multiple tables.
There’s more to setting up a bot than just opening an account on a poker platform. You’ve got to have the software and hardware infrastructure, which as I indicated for something like Cepheus is pretty expensive:
Quote from: ”Cepheus website on complexity of running the program”
It was also only possible thanks to nearly a CPU millenium of computation provided by Compute Canada and Calcul Québec.
So the point here is: you aren’t going to run a reliable poker bot on some random computer sitting at home. The lookup tables alone are over 14TBs. Sure, it’s not an insurmountable cost, but when you add up the CPU and storage needs, then imagine trying to scale them out, the costs of running just a few instances of Cepheus-quality software will be tens of thousands of dollars per month.

Quote from: ”John Smith”
How does this work in relation to 1 play playing multiple tables.
A player can not be in more than one game at a time, so it’s a non-issue.
Quote from: ”John Smith”
One other point I meant to make, and I hope you do not feel you must defend yourselves, but if its random seating only then it is quite a niche solution, since much of poker involves choosing your seat and who you play with.
It’s not purely random, that’s why I don’t call it random seating, I’ve been saying “matching system”. The matching system does allow for some input from users (you don’t just log in and get thrown into a table).
:) Still, as you say, that may not suit everyone. We (the Pokereum team) don’t expect it to be as niche as you’re suggesting, but ultimately, the players and the network will determine that for us!
« Last Edit: April 15, 2015, 06:02:29 pm by patrickgamer »
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John Smith

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Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
« Reply #118 on: April 15, 2015, 07:50:07 pm »

ty!

This more so re-affirms that I observe something that might be helpful, but I hope you don't feel you have to defend a position.

In the paper and your words there seems to be described a function in which it is "not likely" profitable for a "bot" and of course this must then be in relation to the profitability of the field.

But this is relevant then to the human player, that will also only play in a "possibly" profitable field. As for an actual bot/software it shouldn't be all of the permutations that are necessary, but rather just enough strategy to be profitable enough for it to be feasible.

I don't know if that changes the possibility of feasibility in your perspective but I suspect it should, especially since there could be iterative attempts at better and better automated poker software.

And so there is a full formula here that can have an equilibrium, and I think it should be extended because it seems to me some of the seemingly difficult issues become self solving.

If you are not considering a certain average level of profit standard then you might attract a field that is not very profitable, but if you choose parameters that ensure profitability (ie sliding rake in a centralized model) then you can actually do the math to prove or show it is or isn't profitable for a bot that just plays "x" strategy (and therefore doesn't compute all permutations and so needs some fraction of computing power than if it did). This all of course related to hardware costs, maintenance, electricity etc (much of this is of course worked out already with bitcoin).

Another thing too, I MUST seek to understand what it is that is up for "stake" and its duration, or in other words a poker player must understand how much money they are to tie up in order to secure there role.  Then on the other hand, it just needs to be shown this money is less than today's standard of bankroll.

These parameters are all tied up in a formula I do believe, and I should like to help develop it!
« Last Edit: April 15, 2015, 07:55:40 pm by John Smith »
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patrickgamer

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Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
« Reply #119 on: April 15, 2015, 08:20:42 pm »

Quote from: ”John Smith”
… but I hope you don't feel you have to defend a position.

I think that’s the third time you’ve said that… As long as you aren’t wasting anyone’s time, I’m happy to help everyone in the thread understand what we’re up to (and why). :)

Quote from: ”John Smith”
In the paper and your words there seems to be described a function in which it is "not likely" profitable for a "bot" and of course this must then be in relation to the profitability of the field.

It’s not in relation to the “field” (which I assume you mean online poker as a whole). I never suggested anything of the sort, nor has the whitepaper. What I did say is that the costs of running advance automated poker bots is going to ruin ROI for anyone trying to game the system. When talking about stuff like this, it's really important not to jump too quickly into connecting ideas that aren't really connected. I mean, common... Lots of people make their livings (or lose then :D) playing poker online. I'd be pretty silly if I tried to say you couldn't.

Quote from: ”John Smith”
If you are not considering a certain average level of profit standard then you might attract a field that is not very profitable…

I really don’t know what that means.

Quote from: ”John Smith”
… but if you choose parameters that ensure profitability (ie sliding rake in a centralized model) then you can actually do the math to prove or show it is or isn't profitable for a bot that just plays "x" strategy (and therefore doesn't compute all permutations and so needs some fraction of computing power than if it did). This all of course related to hardware costs, maintenance, electricity etc (much of this is of course worked out already with bitcoin).

We really don’t care about what strategies players employ in games. That’s none of our business, and personally, I don’t have a vested interest in any specific player winning at any given table at whatever time of the day… That is way too finely detailed, and also kind of outside my purview.

Let me ask you something in retort: why should I care what strategy a player uses in a trustless poker network?

My personal opinion (and not necessarily that of the Pokereum team) is: bot or not, how you play poker doesn’t concern me at all so long as you aren’t cheating.

Quote from: ”John Smith”
Another thing too, I MUST seek to understand what it is that is up for "stake" and its duration, or in other words a poker player must understand how much money they are to tie up in order to secure there role.  Then on the other hand, it just needs to be shown this money is less than today's standard of bankroll.

This shouldn’t be a tricky topic, the terms used are pretty standard for poker players. Generally speaking:
  • You have stake in the network when you have money in your account
  • You have stake in a game when you have money on the table (which ultimately came from your account)

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John Smith

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Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
« Reply #120 on: April 15, 2015, 08:55:23 pm »

This continually affirms what I am thinking of, although it is difficult to explain because I seem to be coming from a "special" although useful and "true" perspective of the poker player.

Quote
What I did say is that the costs of running advance automated poker bots is going to ruin ROI for anyone trying to game the system. When talking about stuff like this, it's really important not to jump too quickly into connecting ideas that aren't really connected. I mean, common... Lots of people make their livings (or lose then :D) playing poker online. I'd be pretty silly if I tried to say you couldn't.
This is where you have missed a key truth about the poker economy.  There are players that TRY to make a living by depositing and playing, but there are also pros that play a given strategy that will net a certain profit/hour.  This alludes to the fact that there is a hidden underlying profitability of each field.

If you agree and understand this, you should not be so quick to dismiss the relevance and significance of why I point this out. This is why I said 3 times I hope you don't simply mean to defend your position, because possibly there is something bigger and more interesting to levate.

Quote
If you are not considering a certain average level of profit standard then you might attract a field that is not very profitable…
It seems to me your team has dubbed this metric not very important, but if it happens to be that the average level of profitability from the perspective of a poker pro (ie there hourly roi) falls below a certain level, you will not have poker field that will support the economy of it.

Quote
We really don’t care about what strategies players employ in games. That’s none of our business, and personally, I don’t have a vested interest in any specific player winning at any given table at whatever time of the day… That is way too finely detailed, and also kind of outside my purview.
Let me ask you something in retort: why should I care what strategy a player uses in a trustless poker network?
My personal opinion (and not necessarily that of the Pokereum team) is: bot or not, how you play poker doesn’t concern me at all so long as you aren’t cheating.
I think I understand, and that I must point out you speak from a developers perspective and not a poker players perspective.  Because if it happens to be that the other players' strategies are so good that the average pro or decent or intelligent player can not profit then again you cannot have a field that will support this economy.  So the strategy in this sense of the other players does in fact matter, in relation to thing such as rake (in a centralized model), and the overall make up of the player field (ie if "players" start using superbot software of some form, and whether or not bot farms arise).

Of course bots and such software wouldn't necessarily arise in a game that isn't so profitable so there is clearly a limit in this sense.

Quote
This shouldn’t be a tricky topic, the terms used are pretty standard for poker players. Generally speaking:

    You have stake in the network when you have money in your account
    You have stake in a game when you have money on the table (which ultimately came from your account)
What seems tricky about this is that we have not defined how much a player will need to have as a stake in the network and in relation to the money on the table.  Its not clear what the difference in velocities between good winning pros is in relation to weak losing players.  So I really like the foundation of the entire paper but I think that we can further define these things and show that theoretically the perfect balance and overall game theory is solvable and provides a solution. (ie a pro can only accept so much in this regard as well, but it shouldn't be difficult to make it more favorable than centralized models).

I think Vitalik saw this as well, when he mentioned it all seems gameable, but I think that by understanding the economy of the game from the players perspective and especially in terms of pros and recs as I have defined them, seems to allow for a full and complete solution, that ensures a game of favorable profitability but also allows for the possibility of any level of bot software/hardware.  Whereas the paper/proposal seems to make an assumption that such technology is not likely to arise, this would not theoretically be a secure solution, especially because the average poker player needs to be assured of a profitable game (and a profitable game will attract such innovation as bots).

tyty!
« Last Edit: April 15, 2015, 09:08:01 pm by John Smith »
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patrickgamer

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Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
« Reply #121 on: April 16, 2015, 02:48:07 am »

Let’s be clear on something:

Pokereum isn’t going to implement penalties for players who have winning strategies or who are successful at playing poker. Your concern about how people play legitimate strategies is totally sidelining into an area that’s:
    • outside of our control/influence (we don’t get to tell players how to play poker – and we don’t want to)
    • not a factor to safety, trust, or reliability of the network

    The argument I think you’re doing a really bad job of getting to the point on is that if there are all weak or all strong players on the network, Pokereum may suffer a deflationary effect in it’s player adoption rate. Is it fair to say that's what you are getting at?

    If so, this is obvious to any laymen, and is also not really a concern for the Pokereum team. All we can do is build the best experience on a trustless poker network to the best of our ability, and try to convince players to give it a try. Whether they stick around, whether they disagree with our philosophies… those are all externalities we aren’t going to spend energy on – because we can’t influence/control them.

    Please don’t mistake my disinterest in chasing this rabbit as being defensive – it’s just that I see any attempt at molding/shaping player behavior in games as a red herring. It’s not just impossible to do, it’s got a lot of negative blowback potential. Maybe other members of the Pokereum team will disagree with me on this… but I doubt it.

    Quote from: ”John Smith”
    I think I understand, and that I must point out you speak from a developers perspective and not a poker players perspective.  Because if it happens to be that the other players' strategies are so good that the average pro or decent or intelligent player can not profit then again you cannot have a field that will support this economy.  So the strategy in this sense of the other players does in fact matter, in relation to thing such as rake (in a centralized model), and the overall make up of the player field (ie if "players" start using superbot software of some form, and whether or not bot farms arise).

    … I’m not speaking from a developer’s perspective. I’m speaking form the perspective of realism.
    • there are good players on all poker networks. The “ringers” are omnipresent, and we’re not planning on punishing players for being good at poker. That is silly. Going beyond that, I’d point out that I personally (i.e. not the views or opinions of the Pokereum team as a whole) have a theory about what can happen to a network that gets flooded early on with high-yielding players, and it’s all good (for everyone). Unfortunately, it’s also way outside the scope of this thread, so I won’t delve deeper here.
    • The strategy of other players is the concern (dare I say the property of) those respective players. We aren’t building a coaching network, and we aren’t building a tutorial app.
    • That being said, we are using a very cool matching system, so the statistical odds of getting greatly outmatched at a table are astronomically low (way lower than the botnet collusion example I did a few posts up). For all statistical purposes, you can dismiss it totally as a non-issue.
    • What is a centralized rake model? Who said anything about centralized rakes?
    [/list]
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    John Smith

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    Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
    « Reply #122 on: April 16, 2015, 03:55:00 am »

    I certainly do seem to have a relevant point but you have not at all understood it unfortunately. 

    Poker is a game that attracts skilled players.  Skilled players look for a poker game in which they can win money at.   These are your "customers". The game carries a certain level of average profitability for a player in comparison with other options in which they can choose to exchange their monies for poker chips with. I am assuming there is some form of rake leaving the game, and regardless there is going to be this certain level of profitability what ever it is.  If it is negative, you will have no or few poker players.  If there is a profitable environment then you will attract poker players.

    Let's say a game is profitable for someone in the top 90% to make $10/h, and it costs $5/h to run a software that plays in the 90%+ caliber.  Now you have incentive for a bot ring (up until they saturate the game). 

    Carrying this forward, it can be shown whether or not a bot ring will arise mathematically.

    Quote
    What is a centralized rake model? Who said anything about centralized rakes?
    At present time we have different definitions of this, regardless I used it as an example.
    « Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 04:13:45 am by John Smith »
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    innovator256

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    Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
    « Reply #123 on: April 16, 2015, 12:14:36 pm »



    Please don’t mistake my disinterest in chasing this rabbit as being defensive – it’s just that I see any attempt at molding/shaping player behavior in games as a red herring. It’s not just impossible to do, it’s got a lot of negative blowback potential. Maybe other members of the Pokereum team will disagree with me on this… but I doubt it.


    The way he avoids clearly stated fundamentals for the foundation of the network to carry on with discussions that are not pertinent is borderline lunacy, My advice DON'T FEED TROLLS !!
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    patrickgamer

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    Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
    « Reply #124 on: April 16, 2015, 01:47:43 pm »

    BIG DISCLAIMER: I’m about to throw down some personal opinions that may be controversial on the topic of online gaming (and not limited to just online poker). What is about to follow is entirely my own personal perspective and is in no way a reflection of the Pokereum project, it’s team, or in any way an indication of the principles, philosophies, or ideals of either.

     
    Quote from: ”John Smith”
    …. Carrying this forward, it can be shown whether or not a bot ring will arise mathematically.

    So what? All you are telling me is that
    • You aren’t reading the whitepaper in it’s entirety. You are jumping from one section to another and treating each section as being independent and separate from the other. If you did read the whole thing and understood it, you’d see that flooding the network with player accounts that are strung up on marionette (the principle, not the software) controls that negatively affects the networks jeopardizes all the stake from all the bot accounts you’ve matured and invested in on the network. It’s self-defeating.
    • You have a principle theory that you are having a really hard time putting together as a thesis, and you are letting it twist your understanding of everything related to poker (including/especially Pokereum). I’ve taken some time to look you up (and some of your other accounts) and I’ve visited your site. I’m not saying your theories are wrong or bad, but as any scientist/researcher will tell you: a theory is only as strong as it’s ability to be explained/articulated. Even a good theory doesn’t relate or pertain to everything in it’s field (i.e. the special theory of relativity is excellent, but it has nothing to do with magnetic properties of stellar plasma…)

    You keep talking about bots bots bots. As long as they aren’t colluding, why should I care about bots? If bots are as easy to set up as you suggest, and as profitable as you suggest, then everyone is going to run out and get themselves a bot. The playing field doesn’t change – parity in players, and the matching system that screens players for a table is still going to get equitably-performing accounts sitting at the same table. Bots are a red herring because they either are easy + profitable so everyone will have them, or they are super challenging and expensive so they’ll have a relatively low (or non-existent) presence in the population.

    In the latter case, they are really no different than really great human players. They’ll gain rep and wins, and constantly move up the food chain in our matching algorithms to sit at the top-talent tables anyway.

    So… honestly, who cares?

    Quote from: ”John Smith”
    At present time we have different definitions of [centralized rake model], regardless I used it as an example.

    We can’t have “different definitions” of this because I have no definition of a “centralized rake model” because I have no clue what you mean. I know what "centralized" means, I know what "rakes" are, and I know what "models" are, but when you mash them up with no context, you lose me.

    The fact that you can’t just give a straight answer when I ask you to define what that means lends credence to innovator256’s challenge that you’re just trolling me/us. If that's the case, then it's  pretty rude & discourteous considering I've approached all your posts with an open mind and willing to discuss how Pokereum can address your concerns. I hope that's not the case and you're just too impatient to organize your thoughts before posting...

    If you want to argue the merits of your thesis, I’m happy to help; but you have to clean it up, write it out as a proper thesis paper, and then send it to me. I’m happy to critique it and help you refine it then. However - if you don’t’ think your ideas are worth putting the time and work into formalizing them, what do you think that tells me about your ideas when you're asking me to consider them? I took the time to work on that whitepaper (in conjuction with others, of course). That's why I'm in a position to field questions on our proposition from people like you. If you want to be on this side of the Q&A, you've got to pay your dues...

    So don’t try to hijack a project discussion thread as a way of validating your theories just because the project “is poker”. We’re trying to do something cool that we think people will really like, and we’d like to keep our threads focused on our project – not yours.

    Quote from: ”innovator256”
    My advice DON'T FEED TROLLS !!
    I like to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, but I get the feeling your right. This started as a great opportunity to answer questions about risk regarding Sibyl resilience on the Pokereum network, but it’s quickly deteriorating.


    John Smith:If you want to keep my attention and continue to respond to your posts, you are going to have to put more time and effort into your posts. I'm a really busy guy, and I'm starting to feel like you aren't treating my time & attention with the consideration it deserves. If you want to post replies, be direct, articulate, and stop making assumptions about things.

    PS: I can assure you that unless you run off on a biology or contemporary/modern art tangent, there is NOTHING you can post that I won't understand. At the risk of sounding quite immodest - it's just not going to happen.
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    innovator256

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    Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
    « Reply #125 on: April 16, 2015, 02:29:46 pm »

    BIG DISCLAIMER: I’m about to throw down some personal opinions that may be controversial on the topic of online gaming (and not limited to just online poker). What is about to follow is entirely my own personal perspective and is in no way a reflection of the Pokereum project, it’s team, or in any way an indication of the principles, philosophies, or ideals of either.

     
    Quote from: ”John Smith”
    …. Carrying this forward, it can be shown whether or not a bot ring will arise mathematically.

    So what? All you are telling me is that
    • You aren’t reading the whitepaper in it’s entirety. You are jumping from one section to another and treating each section as being independent and separate from the other. If you did read the whole thing and understood it, you’d see that flooding the network with player accounts that are strung up on marionette (the principle, not the software) controls that negatively affects the networks jeopardizes all the stake from all the bot accounts you’ve matured and invested in on the network. It’s self-defeating.
    • You have a principle theory that you are having a really hard time putting together as a thesis, and you are letting it twist your understanding of everything related to poker (including/especially Pokereum). I’ve taken some time to look you up (and some of your other accounts) and I’ve visited your site. I’m not saying your theories are wrong or bad, but as any scientist/researcher will tell you: a theory is only as strong as it’s ability to be explained/articulated. Even a good theory doesn’t relate or pertain to everything in it’s field (i.e. the special theory of relativity is excellent, but it has nothing to do with magnetic properties of stellar plasma…)

    You keep talking about bots bots bots. As long as they aren’t colluding, why should I care about bots? If bots are as easy to set up as you suggest, and as profitable as you suggest, then everyone is going to run out and get themselves a bot. The playing field doesn’t change – parity in players, and the matching system that screens players for a table is still going to get equitably-performing accounts sitting at the same table. Bots are a red herring because they either are easy + profitable so everyone will have them, or they are super challenging and expensive so they’ll have a relatively low (or non-existent) presence in the population.

    In the latter case, they are really no different than really great human players. They’ll gain rep and wins, and constantly move up the food chain in our matching algorithms to sit at the top-talent tables anyway.

    So… honestly, who cares?

    Quote from: ”John Smith”
    At present time we have different definitions of [centralized rake model], regardless I used it as an example.

    We can’t have “different definitions” of this because I have no definition of a “centralized rake model” because I have no clue what you mean. I know what "centralized" means, I know what "rakes" are, and I know what "models" are, but when you mash them up with no context, you lose me.

    The fact that you can’t just give a straight answer when I ask you to define what that means lends credence to innovator256’s challenge that you’re just trolling me/us. If that's the case, then it's  pretty rude & discourteous considering I've approached all your posts with an open mind and willing to discuss how Pokereum can address your concerns. I hope that's not the case and you're just too impatient to organize your thoughts before posting...

    If you want to argue the merits of your thesis, I’m happy to help; but you have to clean it up, write it out as a proper thesis paper, and then send it to me. I’m happy to critique it and help you refine it then. However - if you don’t’ think your ideas are worth putting the time and work into formalizing them, what do you think that tells me about your ideas when you're asking me to consider them? I took the time to work on that whitepaper (in conjuction with others, of course). That's why I'm in a position to field questions on our proposition from people like you. If you want to be on this side of the Q&A, you've got to pay your dues...

    So don’t try to hijack a project discussion thread as a way of validating your theories just because the project “is poker”. We’re trying to do something cool that we think people will really like, and we’d like to keep our threads focused on our project – not yours.

    Quote from: ”innovator256”
    My advice DON'T FEED TROLLS !!
    I like to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, but I get the feeling your right. This started as a great opportunity to answer questions about risk regarding Sibyl resilience on the Pokereum network, but it’s quickly deteriorating.


    John Smith:If you want to keep my attention and continue to respond to your posts, you are going to have to put more time and effort into your posts. I'm a really busy guy, and I'm starting to feel like you aren't treating my time & attention with the consideration it deserves. If you want to post replies, be direct, articulate, and stop making assumptions about things.

    PS: I can assure you that unless you run off on a biology or contemporary/modern art tangent, there is NOTHING you can post that I won't understand. At the risk of sounding quite immodest - it's just not going to happen.

    ++1440


    « Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 02:35:01 pm by innovator256 »
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    Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
    « Reply #126 on: April 16, 2015, 02:46:01 pm »

    BIG DISCLAIMER: I’m about to throw down some personal opinions that may be controversial on the topic of online gaming (and not limited to just online poker). What is about to follow is entirely my own personal perspective and is in no way a reflection of the Pokereum project, it’s team, or in any way an indication of the principles, philosophies, or ideals of either.

     
    Quote from: ”John Smith”
    …. Carrying this forward, it can be shown whether or not a bot ring will arise mathematically.

    So what? All you are telling me is that
    • You aren’t reading the whitepaper in it’s entirety. You are jumping from one section to another and treating each section as being independent and separate from the other. If you did read the whole thing and understood it, you’d see that flooding the network with player accounts that are strung up on marionette (the principle, not the software) controls that negatively affects the networks jeopardizes all the stake from all the bot accounts you’ve matured and invested in on the network. It’s self-defeating.
    • You have a principle theory that you are having a really hard time putting together as a thesis, and you are letting it twist your understanding of everything related to poker (including/especially Pokereum). I’ve taken some time to look you up (and some of your other accounts) and I’ve visited your site. I’m not saying your theories are wrong or bad, but as any scientist/researcher will tell you: a theory is only as strong as it’s ability to be explained/articulated. Even a good theory doesn’t relate or pertain to everything in it’s field (i.e. the special theory of relativity is excellent, but it has nothing to do with magnetic properties of stellar plasma…)

    You keep talking about bots bots bots. As long as they aren’t colluding, why should I care about bots? If bots are as easy to set up as you suggest, and as profitable as you suggest, then everyone is going to run out and get themselves a bot. The playing field doesn’t change – parity in players, and the matching system that screens players for a table is still going to get equitably-performing accounts sitting at the same table. Bots are a red herring because they either are easy + profitable so everyone will have them, or they are super challenging and expensive so they’ll have a relatively low (or non-existent) presence in the population.

    In the latter case, they are really no different than really great human players. They’ll gain rep and wins, and constantly move up the food chain in our matching algorithms to sit at the top-talent tables anyway.

    So… honestly, who cares?
    I did read the whitepaper, multiple times, I am seeking to understand it. 

    Yes I talk about bots.  Because if the game is profitable in a way that will attract poker players to play it then bots will almost certainly arise.  And they will flood the network with more bots than humans because such is the nature of the "game".

    I'll tell you who cares.  Every single poker player you want to use this software.  It will ALWAYS be the first question they ask you "How do you deal with collusion and bots?"  And I'm not talking about colluding bots, I am talking about a plethora of bots that tip the scales of profitability into an unbeatable game.    Random seating doesn't seem to defeat this in any manner.

    I'm not sure if I am not understanding something here or if you are dismissing something that seems obvious.  Poker players are looking for an economy, you are providing a platform with a seemingly limited one.

    Quote from: ”John Smith”
    At present time we have different definitions of [centralized rake model], regardless I used it as an example.

    We can’t have “different definitions” of this because I have no definition of a “centralized rake model” because I have no clue what you mean. I know what "centralized" means, I know what "rakes" are, and I know what "models" are, but when you mash them up with no context, you lose me.
    Centralized rake model involves rake leaving the game to a third party etc. the opposite being a game in which the rake does not leave the players community.  We could certainly go into this further, perhaps sites with servers rather than p2p.

    Quote
    The fact that you can’t just give a straight answer when I ask you to define what that means lends credence to innovator256’s challenge that you’re just trolling me/us. If that's the case, then it's  pretty rude & discourteous considering I've approached all your posts with an open mind and willing to discuss how Pokereum can address your concerns. I hope that's not the case and you're just too impatient to organize your thoughts before posting...

    If you want to argue the merits of your thesis, I’m happy to help; but you have to clean it up, write it out as a proper thesis paper, and then send it to me. I’m happy to critique it and help you refine it then. However - if you don’t’ think your ideas are worth putting the time and work into formalizing them, what do you think that tells me about your ideas when you're asking me to consider them? I took the time to work on that whitepaper (in conjuction with others, of course). That's why I'm in a position to field questions on our proposition from people like you. If you want to be on this side of the Q&A, you've got to pay your dues...
    What does it mean to be "formal" to you?  To have an abstract?  Is it the indentation or the fonts? 

    Quote
    So don’t try to hijack a project discussion thread as a way of validating your theories just because the project “is poker”. We’re trying to do something cool that we think people will really like, and we’d like to keep our threads focused on our project – not yours.
    Yes and y'all invited me to the discussion.

    Quote
    Quote from: ”innovator256”
    My advice DON'T FEED TROLLS !!
    I like to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, but I get the feeling your right. This started as a great opportunity to answer questions about risk regarding Sibyl resilience on the Pokereum network, but it’s quickly deteriorating.

    John Smith:If you want to keep my attention and continue to respond to your posts, you are going to have to put more time and effort into your posts. I'm a really busy guy, and I'm starting to feel like you aren't treating my time & attention with the consideration it deserves. If you want to post replies, be direct, articulate, and stop making assumptions about things.
    :)

    Quote
    PS: I can assure you that unless you run off on a biology or contemporary/modern art tangent, there is NOTHING you can post that I won't understand. At the risk of sounding quite immodest - it's just not going to happen.
    Good that means we can levate rheomodes which might prove useful.

    My understanding of the issue of dialogue here is that you and your team have approached this solution from a developers perspective.  Everything I have contemplated, whether you give a shit or not, or think or it foolish or not, is from the players perspective...

    you are about 80% out of line from the players wants, 20% you see eye to eye with the average intelligent player.  But when you shift it to align, the pieces seem to match perfectly.

    « Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 03:03:18 pm by John Smith »
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    Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
    « Reply #127 on: April 16, 2015, 02:54:23 pm »

    BIG DISCLAIMER: I’m about to throw down some personal opinions that may be controversial on the topic of online gaming (and not limited to just online poker). What is about to follow is entirely my own personal perspective and is in no way a reflection of the Pokereum project, it’s team, or in any way an indication of the principles, philosophies, or ideals of either.

    You keep talking about bots bots bots. As long as they aren’t colluding, why should I care about bots? If bots are as easy to set up as you suggest, and as profitable as you suggest, then everyone is going to run out and get themselves a bot. The playing field doesn’t change – parity in players, and the matching system that screens players for a table is still going to get equitably-performing accounts sitting at the same table. Bots are a red herring because they either are easy + profitable so everyone will have them, or they are super challenging and expensive so they’ll have a relatively low (or non-existent) presence in the population.

    In the latter case, they are really no different than really great human players. They’ll gain rep and wins, and constantly move up the food chain in our matching algorithms to sit at the top-talent tables anyway.

    So… honestly, who cares?
    You don't have a solution for the players if this is the attitude, regardless of any disclaimers. This would scare the shit out of the players. Besides, bots are probably super easy and relatively cheap.

    So why are we defending this when it can (possibly) be worked into the solution?

    And also you have a formula but there has been nothing shown with numbers in regards to how much bankroll a player has to tie up etc.  So we cannot think accurately about the cost of a bot or how favorable it would be for a player.  Again I'm still not confident I understand, but it seems we certainly should be able to look at decent estimates and scenarios. 
    « Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 03:07:18 pm by John Smith »
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    innovator256

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    Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
    « Reply #128 on: April 16, 2015, 03:11:54 pm »

    Now you will just be censored for name calling and swearing troll. Since I cannot ban you.
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    Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
    « Reply #129 on: April 16, 2015, 03:13:21 pm »

    Now you will just be censored for name calling and swearing troll. Since I cannot ban you.
    You also seemed to have censored the part where I told you to contribute.
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    Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
    « Reply #130 on: April 16, 2015, 03:16:29 pm »

    sorry I don't want to waste my time contributing to lunacy...There is no productive discussion here, just an effort to disrupt and shed light on your blog.
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    Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
    « Reply #131 on: April 16, 2015, 03:17:45 pm »

    sorry I don't want to waste my time contributing to lunacy...There is no productive discussion here, just an effort to disrupt and shed light on your blog.
    Listen, NOBODY wants this to succeed more than me.

    You are a very rude person.

    Edit: my blog has much to do with shining light on projects such as nxt and pokererum from the perspective of a poker player.  A lot of paper have learned about these things through me...players, players that will be needed to support your platform.
    « Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 03:24:23 pm by John Smith »
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    Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
    « Reply #132 on: April 16, 2015, 03:23:27 pm »

    if thats true..why don't you address the points in the paper as it relates to your question rather than making assumptions time and time again. Or dedicate time to understanding the solutions in the paper if you really care.Rather than side stepping all the explanations given by patrickgamer to keep discussing points that are null and void...



    As for rudeness this is like the pot calling the kettle black. All your disruptive activities over time will prompt some kind of reaction sometime
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    patrickgamer

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    Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
    « Reply #133 on: April 16, 2015, 03:24:19 pm »

    Dude: please clean up your posts. Do a post preview and make sure you're properly closing quotes and such, otherwise it's a mess to try to read.
    Quote from: ”John Smith”
    I'll tell you who cares.  Every singe poker player you want to use this software.  It will ALWAYS be the first question they ask you "How do you deal with collusion and bots?"  And I'm not talking about colluding bots, I am talking about a plethora of bots that tip the scales of profitability into an unbeatable game.    Random seating doesn't seem to defeat this in any manner.

    Collusion and bots are two separate problems; and I’ve already said multiple times that our matching system is not random.

    Quote from: ”John Smith”
    I'm not sure if I am not understanding something here or if you are dismissing something that seems obvious.  Poker players are looking for an economy, you are providing a platform with a seemingly limited one.

    You’re ignore chunks of things I say (for example: “our matching system isn’t random”). By picking and choosing what you remember from what I say, you are creating gaps/holes that don’t exist.

    As for players: that hasn’t been my observation at all. The overwhelming majority (not all) of poker players aren’t looking for an economy. They’re looking to play a game they enjoy (poker) in an environment where they don’t have to risk misplacing trust. There is a small percentage of players that approach online poker from a purely business standpoint, but their population is so low that they couldn’t support the $12Billion market on their own.

    Quote from: ”John Smith”
    Centralized rake model involves rake leaving the game to a third party etc. the opposite being a game in which the rake does not leave the players community.  We could certainly go into this further, perhaps sites with servers rather than p2p.
    Uh…. No. What you are describing is a rake.
    Quote from: ”Wikipedia”
    Rake is the scaled commission fee taken by a cardroom operating a poker game. It is generally 2.5 to 5 percent of the pot in each poker hand, up to a predetermined maximum amount.
    There’s nothing centralized or modeled about it. That’s just what a rake is: what the host takes for running the game. Are you suggesting that a team who puts there time, money, and brainpower into creating a fully trustless poker network shouldn’t be collecting rakes to fund improvements and new releases/features for the network?

    Any player capable of thinking two days ahead knows that paying rakes are fundamental to keeping the thing they like around and fresh, and are always happy to pay something. The question we raise is: can we do it cheaper than everyone else (answer: yes, we think we can).

    Quote from: ”John Smith”
    What does it mean to be "formal" to you?  To have an abstract?  Is it the indentation or the fonts?
    • Don’t be a smartass; you aren’t winning me over with that approach.
    • I already answered that question in my last post: write a thesis paper.
    Quote from: ”John Smith”
    Yes and y'all invited me to the discussion.
    You were invited to ask questions about our project, not to discuss your theories. Please tell me I don’t have to explain the difference…

    Quote from: ”John Smith”
    My understanding of the issue of dialog here is that you and your team have approached this solution from a developers perspective.  Everything I have contemplated, whether you give a shit or not, or think or it foolish or not, is from the players perspective...
    Stop saying that – it’s getting on my nerves. Have you considered AT ALL the possibility that you don’t understand what we’re posting (or doing) and this is why you keep saying we aren’t thinking about players? That maybe this big complex concept you’ve put months (or years) into developing and refining was just a small nut we cracked in a few hours? Because honestly, from where I’m sitting that’s what it sounds like.

    Quote from: ”John Smith”
    you are about 80% out of line from the players wants, 20% you see eye to eye with the average intelligent player.  But when you shift it to align, the pieces seem to match perfectly.
    Great, stats! Source please! [without sources, I’m going to assume when you say “players” you mean “me”]
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    Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
    « Reply #134 on: April 16, 2015, 03:37:22 pm »


    Collusion and bots are two separate problems; and I’ve already said multiple times that our matching system is not random.

    You’re ignore chunks of things I say (for example: “our matching system isn’t random”). By picking and choosing what you remember from what I say, you are creating gaps/holes that don’t exist.
    From the players perspective it seems to be effectively random, in that they do not get to choose their own seat.  I don't fully understand the algorithm, but for my understanding and questions that doesn't seem so pertinent.  Part of poker, is choosing your own seat.  There are games that you don't choose your own seat, but they are a niche game, as many players would not accept that lack of option. This is why I keep using the word random, its a natural slip because I don't have the same perspective as you, so different words are important in different ways to me.

    Quote
    As for players: that hasn’t been my observation at all. The overwhelming majority (not all) of poker players aren’t looking for an economy. They’re looking to play a game they enjoy (poker) in an environment where they don’t have to risk misplacing trust. There is a small percentage of players that approach online poker from a purely business standpoint, but their population is so low that they couldn’t support the $12Billion market on their own.
    This is a leak.  You cannot ignore this, it is simple economics. Poker is a game of skill, and the players field is getting more and more intelligent over time, you have to address this.

    Quote
    Quote from: ”John Smith”
    Centralized rake model involves rake leaving the game to a third party etc. the opposite being a game in which the rake does not leave the players community.  We could certainly go into this further, perhaps sites with servers rather than p2p.
    Uh…. No. What you are describing is a rake.
    Quote from: ”Wikipedia”
    Rake is the scaled commission fee taken by a cardroom operating a poker game. It is generally 2.5 to 5 percent of the pot in each poker hand, up to a predetermined maximum amount.
    There’s nothing centralized or modeled about it. That’s just what a rake is: what the host takes for running the game. Are you suggesting that a team who puts there time, money, and brainpower into creating a fully trustless poker network shouldn’t be collecting rakes to fund improvements and new releases/features for the network?

    Any player capable of thinking two days ahead knows that paying rakes are fundamental to keeping the thing they like around and fresh, and are always happy to pay something. The question we raise is: can we do it cheaper than everyone else (answer: yes, we think we can).
    It matters not whether you can do it cheaper, but rather the profitability of the game you offer.  And rake can also be essentially (or in the "effective" definition) value leaving the game to 3rd parties. And yes it generally is and certainly can create a centralized model/economy for the game. Today's game is exactly in that state, and your project is titled with the word "decentralized" (admittedly we don't fully share the same perspective or definition of that either). 

    Quote
    Quote from: ”John Smith”
    What does it mean to be "formal" to you?  To have an abstract?  Is it the indentation or the fonts?
    • Don’t be a smartass; you aren’t winning me over with that approach.
    • I already answered that question in my last post: write a thesis paper.
    Quote from: ”John Smith”
    Yes and y'all invited me to the discussion.
    You were invited to ask questions about our project, not to discuss your theories. Please tell me I don’t have to explain the difference…
    I'm not being a smart ass, you obviously have parameters of formality and I need them in order to write something in the form you are demanding of me.  And it seems clear you have to explain the difference, because I am simply being sincere.
    Quote
    Quote from: ”John Smith”
    My understanding of the issue of dialog here is that you and your team have approached this solution from a developers perspective.  Everything I have contemplated, whether you give a shit or not, or think or it foolish or not, is from the players perspective...
    Stop saying that – it’s getting on my nerves. Have you considered AT ALL the possibility that you don’t understand what we’re posting (or doing) and this is why you keep saying we aren’t thinking about players? That maybe this big complex concept you’ve put months (or years) into developing and refining was just a small nut we cracked in a few hours? Because honestly, from where I’m sitting that’s what it sounds like.

    Quote from: ”John Smith”
    you are about 80% out of line from the players wants, 20% you see eye to eye with the average intelligent player.  But when you shift it to align, the pieces seem to match perfectly.
    Great, stats! Source please! [without sources, I’m going to assume when you say “players” you mean “me”]
    Yes you cracked me in a few hours.  Yes I put out probabilities to describe what I am saying, I am a pro poker player, not highstakes I just live off the game, so I try to accurately describe things with probabilities. 
    « Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 03:40:26 pm by John Smith »
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    Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
    « Reply #135 on: April 16, 2015, 03:41:53 pm »

    if thats true..why don't you address the points in the paper as it relates to your question rather than making assumptions time and time again. Or dedicate time to understanding the solutions in the paper if you really care.Rather than side stepping all the explanations given by patrickgamer to keep discussing points that are null and void...



    As for rudeness this is like the pot calling the kettle black. All your disruptive activities over time will prompt some kind of reaction sometime
    I am not attacking your project, you do not need to defend anything.
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    Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
    « Reply #136 on: April 16, 2015, 04:05:05 pm »

    Quote from: ”John Smith”
    There are games that you don't choose your own seat, but they are a niche game, as many players would not accept that lack of option. This is why I keep using the word random, its a natural slip because I don't have the same perspective as you, so different words are important in different ways to me.
    I see. Well, let’s agree to disagree on this. We don’t think picking a table (I say seat, but you are assigned to a table, not a “chair”) is all that important when looking at online play with strangers (unless you’re cheating). HOWEVER – if we’re wrong, the market will show that after launch. So far, you’re the only one we’ve heard from who has an issue with this.
    Quote from: ”John Smith”
    Quote from: ”patrickgamer”
    As for players: that hasn’t been my observation at all. The overwhelming majority (not all) of poker players aren’t looking for an economy. They’re looking to play a game they enjoy (poker) in an environment where they don’t have to risk misplacing trust. There is a small percentage of players that approach online poker from a purely business standpoint, but their population is so low that they couldn’t support the $12Billion market on their own.
    This is a leak.  You cannot ignore this, it is simple economics. Poker is a game of skill, and the players field is getting more and more intelligent over time, you have to address this.

    This is what I’m talking about. What is a leak? What am I ignoring? That players get better? I’m not ignoring that, it’s just a self-correcting phenomena. The simplest example is bell-curving. The player population in any poker network is always going to follow a relatively normal distribution, and absolutely nothing I’ve read/seen/heard/felt/smelt (including your posts and your website) suggests that’s going to change in our lifetime. Stop saying random incomplete sentences. Take the time to formulate your thoughts properly, or I’m not going to put the time in to read them.

    Quote from: ”John Smith”
    It matters not whether you can do it cheaper, but rather the profitability of the game you offer.

    Only if you are approaching it from an economic theory perspective (i.e. YOUR perspective). I’ve already refuted your supposition that your perspective is shared by the bulk of players. My observations, research, and evidence suggests your assumption/presumption is flawed. You haven’t convinced me otherwise. Write the thesis paper, convince me, and then I’ll consider the notion that everyone who plays poker is doing it your way.

    Quote from: ”John Smith”
    I'm not being a smart ass, you obviously have parameters of formality and I need them in order to write something in the form you are demanding of me.  And it seems clear you have to explain the difference, because I am simply being sincere.
    Okay, in good faith, go read irsc.edu/students/academicsupportcenter/researchpaper/researchpaper.aspx?id=4294967430 and covingtoninnovations.com/mc/howtowrite/howtowrite.pdf

    Quote from: ”John Smith”
    Yes you cracked me in a few hours.  Yes I put out probabilities to describe what I am saying, I am a pro poker player, not highstakes I just live off the game, so I try to accurately describe things with probabilities.
    You didn’t have to tell me that. It’s painfully obvious you are coming from a perspective of personal experience; but that just strengthens my point that you are a bit biased and your assumption that you represent the general poker population is off-key.
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    Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
    « Reply #137 on: April 16, 2015, 04:35:47 pm »

    Quote from: ”John Smith”
    There are games that you don't choose your own seat, but they are a niche game, as many players would not accept that lack of option. This is why I keep using the word random, its a natural slip because I don't have the same perspective as you, so different words are important in different ways to me.
    I see. Well, let’s agree to disagree on this. We don’t think picking a table (I say seat, but you are assigned to a table, not a “chair”) is all that important when looking at online play with strangers (unless you’re cheating). HOWEVER – if we’re wrong, the market will show that after launch. So far, you’re the only one we’ve heard from who has an issue with this.
    Its simply a partial solution from a poker players' perspective.  For example there are many coaching videos and strategy threads on picking your player pools and opponents, it is part of poker.  Not being able to pick such things is a certain niche of the game.

    Quote
    Quote from: ”John Smith”
    Quote from: ”patrickgamer”
    As for players: that hasn’t been my observation at all. The overwhelming majority (not all) of poker players aren’t looking for an economy. They’re looking to play a game they enjoy (poker) in an environment where they don’t have to risk misplacing trust. There is a small percentage of players that approach online poker from a purely business standpoint, but their population is so low that they couldn’t support the $12Billion market on their own.
    This is a leak.  You cannot ignore this, it is simple economics. Poker is a game of skill, and the players field is getting more and more intelligent over time, you have to address this.

    This is what I’m talking about. What is a leak? What am I ignoring? That players get better? I’m not ignoring that, it’s just a self-correcting phenomena. The simplest example is bell-curving. The player population in any poker network is always going to follow a relatively normal distribution, and absolutely nothing I’ve read/seen/heard/felt/smelt (including your posts and your website) suggests that’s going to change in our lifetime. Stop saying random incomplete sentences. Take the time to formulate your thoughts properly, or I’m not going to put the time in to read them.
    The bell curve doesn't fully describe what is profitable from the players' perspective.


    Quote

    Quote from: ”John Smith”
    It matters not whether you can do it cheaper, but rather the profitability of the game you offer.

    Only if you are approaching it from an economic theory perspective (i.e. YOUR perspective). I’ve already refuted your supposition that your perspective is shared by the bulk of players. My observations, research, and evidence suggests your assumption/presumption is flawed. You haven’t convinced me otherwise. Write the thesis paper, convince me, and then I’ll consider the notion that everyone who plays poker is doing it your way.


    Quote from: ”John Smith”
    I'm not being a smart ass, you obviously have parameters of formality and I need them in order to write something in the form you are demanding of me.  And it seems clear you have to explain the difference, because I am simply being sincere.
    Okay, in good faith, go read irsc.edu/students/academicsupportcenter/researchpaper/researchpaper.aspx?id=4294967430 and covingtoninnovations.com/mc/howtowrite/howtowrite.pdf

    Yes I caught up on the links, I understand now, you wish to throw a mountain in front of me, I would climb it if I felt you would possibly deem it as acceptable/relevant. Regardless I need to understand or fully know your formulas to do such a thing.

    Quote
    Quote from: ”John Smith”
    Yes you cracked me in a few hours.  Yes I put out probabilities to describe what I am saying, I am a pro poker player, not highstakes I just live off the game, so I try to accurately describe things with probabilities.
    You didn’t have to tell me that. It’s painfully obvious you are coming from a perspective of personal experience; but that just strengthens my point that you are a bit biased and your assumption that you represent the general poker population is off-key.
    I think rather you have not at all understood my intent, purpose, or insight.

    My understanding is the players in general will avoid this economy.  I also wonder if you straightened out Vitalik's complaints when he said it looked game-able (ie I suspect me and him were seeing the same issue in different ways). I am a huge supporter of this, obviously, and I want it to succeed.  I don't care if you destroyed me in an hour. You and innovator are too defensive, I am still simply hoping to understand, I guess contributing is already out of the question.
    « Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 04:48:03 pm by John Smith »
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    patrickgamer

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    Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
    « Reply #138 on: April 16, 2015, 05:06:12 pm »

    Quote from: John Smith
    The bell curve doesn't fully describe what is profitability from the players' perspective is.
    No, it actually does describe profitability in poker very well. It's been analysed several times by a few independent teams.

    Quote from: John Smith
    Yes I caught up on the links, I understand now, you wish to though a mountain in front of me, I would climb it if I felt you would possibly deem it as acceptable/relevant. Regardless I need to understand or fully know your formulas to do such a thing.
    Don't chastise me for asking you to put the same amount of effort into your theories that we put into ours. If you want your ideas to be treated as equals with ours, you're going to have to earn it. Like I said, if you don't think your ideas are worth the time/effort to formalize, then they probably aren't worth my effort to learn about them.

    Quote from: John Smith
    I think rather you have not at all understood my intent, purpose, or insight.
    Yeah, I get it. You have an idea - it's really important, and it'll help us take our project to the next level by avoiding the pitfalls of other, similar projects. This isn't rocket-science, we all understand what you're saying. We just aren't convinced that these ideas of yours are as ground-breaking and you think they are.

    Quote from: John Smith
    My understanding is the players in general will avoid this economy.
    I doubt it, everyone the team speaks with doubts it too. Still, there's no point debating it. Time will tell.

    Quote from: John Smith
    I also wonder if you straightened out Vitalik's complaints when he said it looked game-able.
    Vitalik never said our system was gameable. I'll caution you to be very careful of paraphrasing other people's comments. Use direct quotes/citations or don't use the person at all. Someone who considered you more of a FUD poster would see that as purposefully misusing a popular name for your personal agenda...

    For reader's benefit, this is the direct quote:
    Quote from: White Paper
    Quote from: Vitalik
    So, this mechanism is still only as strong as the p2p poker chain itself, as if malicious actors take over >50% of the p2p poker chain then they can put multiple sets of hashes into the ethereum blockchain (unless you're not just using hashes and putting all the data in, in which case why not just use the ethereum blockchain to store the entire state?)
    Quote from: patrickgamer
    To elaborate a bit on the 50% vulnerability - our plan is to use stake as a measure of trust for each proof of work. If our sample of the network (i.e. juror pool) returns anything but 100% conformity, we resubmit for full network validation.

    So, 50% attack doesn't work in the traditional sense. You'll also note, further down the paper, that the stake isn't just a function of asset value, but of velocity as well. So an attack would require cultivation of 50% of the network by velocity, maintaining this ahead of the natural network members.

    Bonus: a full network consensus may also be used to identify members of the attacking/colluding pool.

    Vitalik's concern had nothing at all to do with the gaming aspect of the project, and was entirely focused on the integrity of the blockchain technology we're working with. I think my response sufficiently addressed his concern.

    Quote from: John Smith
    I am a huge supporter of this, obviously, and I want it to succeed.  I don't care if you destroyed me in an hour. You and innovator are too defensive, I am still simply hoping to understand, I guess contributing is already out of the question.
    No one destroyed anyone as far as I can see, and me asking you to slow down and organize your thoughts more clearly doesn't make me defensive.

    We are all glad that you are a supporter of the project. It means that even in the face of disagreement, you still see the same value prop that we are so excited about.

    That said, I will say that your inability to process critical feedback and your one-track-mind approach to learning about our project probably wouldn't make you a good fit with the team right now. Our biomass forcus right now is on collaberative thinkers, and the project (and so by extension the team)  doesn't have to chase down perriferal concepts/theories. However, things (and people) change with time. Maybe sometime down the road when the project isn't quite as focused we could rekindle the discussion.

    I would have expected, though, that you'd rather spend your time and energy refining your own theories before giving your time to another project. If/when you do, feel free to send me the thesis. My offer of reviewing it still stands.
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    John Smith

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    Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
    « Reply #139 on: April 16, 2015, 05:59:36 pm »

    Quote from: John Smith
    The bell curve doesn't fully describe what is profitability from the players' perspective is.
    No, it actually does describe profitability in poker very well. It's been analysed several times by a few independent teams.
    I'm not sure, maybe I am not well studied on the subject.  I understand there is to be a bell curve in edge and winning distribution.  But my understanding is there are factors that are involved in a players hourly $winrate. It doesn't seem to me a bell curve describes this. A crude example might be a game of 100% rake vs a game with 0%, players could have the same winning distribution but different profit rates. Another crude example would be if the game was 99% bot's that play maximally exploitative.

    Quote
    Quote from: John Smith
    Yes I caught up on the links, I understand now, you wish to though a mountain in front of me, I would climb it if I felt you would possibly deem it as acceptable/relevant. Regardless I need to understand or fully know your formulas to do such a thing.
    Don't chastise me for asking you to put the same amount of effort into your theories that we put into ours. If you want your ideas to be treated as equals with ours, you're going to have to earn it. Like I said, if you don't think your ideas are worth the time/effort to formalize, then they probably aren't worth my effort to learn about them.
    Probably is the interesting word I think.  But I simply meant your tone suggests you would not mean to read my "thesis" anyways, which is fine and makes sense.


    Quote
    Quote from: John Smith
    I also wonder if you straightened out Vitalik's complaints when he said it looked game-able.
    Vitalik never said our system was gameable. I'll caution you to be very careful of paraphrasing other people's comments. Use direct quotes/citations or don't use the person at all. Someone who considered you more of a FUD poster would see that as purposefully misusing a popular name for your personal agenda...

    For reader's benefit, this is the direct quote:
    Quote from: White Paper
    Quote from: Vitalik
    So, this mechanism is still only as strong as the p2p poker chain itself, as if malicious actors take over >50% of the p2p poker chain then they can put multiple sets of hashes into the ethereum blockchain (unless you're not just using hashes and putting all the data in, in which case why not just use the ethereum blockchain to store the entire state?)
    Quote from: patrickgamer
    To elaborate a bit on the 50% vulnerability - our plan is to use stake as a measure of trust for each proof of work. If our sample of the network (i.e. juror pool) returns anything but 100% conformity, we resubmit for full network validation.

    So, 50% attack doesn't work in the traditional sense. You'll also note, further down the paper, that the stake isn't just a function of asset value, but of velocity as well. So an attack would require cultivation of 50% of the network by velocity, maintaining this ahead of the natural network members.

    Bonus: a full network consensus may also be used to identify members of the attacking/colluding pool.

    Vitalik's concern had nothing at all to do with the gaming aspect of the project, and was entirely focused on the integrity of the blockchain technology we're working with. I think my response sufficiently addressed his concern.
    This I am interested in, and I guess my understanding is that this is a formula, to relate the stake needed to run a mass amount of colluding nodes, and whether or not it can be done with bot software (and hardware I guess too).  I am not trying to do FUD, I think that your paper did not go into the specifics of this and I mean to understand them. 

    On the one hand it seems you feel it is not feasible to create and run a software that is capable of generating enough profitable balance (while tying up enough "stake")...

    But on the other the game must be profitable enough to attract human players as well as the monies they are required to tie up must be low enough that it is worth while still.

    How can I understand this better, for example what game will I play and what will it require of me in this regard?
    Quote
    Quote from: John Smith
    I am a huge supporter of this, obviously, and I want it to succeed.  I don't care if you destroyed me in an hour. You and innovator are too defensive, I am still simply hoping to understand, I guess contributing is already out of the question.
    No one destroyed anyone as far as I can see, and me asking you to slow down and organize your thoughts more clearly doesn't make me defensive.

    We are all glad that you are a supporter of the project. It means that even in the face of disagreement, you still see the same value prop that we are so excited about.

    That said, I will say that your inability to process critical feedback and your one-track-mind approach to learning about our project probably wouldn't make you a good fit with the team right now. Our biomass forcus right now is on collaberative thinkers, and the project (and so by extension the team)  doesn't have to chase down perriferal concepts/theories. However, things (and people) change with time. Maybe sometime down the road when the project isn't quite as focused we could rekindle the discussion.

    I would have expected, though, that you'd rather spend your time and energy refining your own theories before giving your time to another project. If/when you do, feel free to send me the thesis. My offer of reviewing it still stands.
    I have no doubt p2p decentralized poker is inevitable, to me then there is only one solution as the implementation of mental poker.
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    patrickgamer

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    Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
    « Reply #140 on: April 16, 2015, 07:07:00 pm »

    Quote from: John Smith
    Probably is the interesting word I think.  But I simply meant your tone suggests you would not mean to read my "thesis" anyways, which is fine and makes sense.
    I already said I would review it; three separate times in just the last 24 hours. If that's not enough... well then, there's nothing I can do about that. I'm not going to argue with you about whether I intend to do something I said I would.

    Quote from: John Smith
    This I am interested in, and I guess my understanding is that this is a formula, to relate the stake needed to run a mass amount of colluding nodes, and whether or not it can be done with bot software (and hardware I guess too).
    We are talking about blockchain and network stake, you're talking about game stake. No amount of game stake will let a puppeteer successfully collude on the network. The probabilities are astronomically low. If you think you can beat those odds, you'd make more money playing the NY super lotto.

    Quote from: John Smith
    How can I understand this better, for example what game will I play and what will it require of me in this regard?
    Okay, I've explained this to you a few times on a few different boards. For readers' benefit here, this will be the last time I walk you through this...

    Firstly: we've already discussed the probabilities associated with two cheaters trying to land at the same table when they have the exact same matching criteria. But I also said that's almost never going to happen, so the odds of two cheaters getting to the same table in reality is even SMALLER than the probability I posted above. With that in mind,
    • To have a player account, you have to have money in the account (this is your stake in the Pokereum network).
    • When you are ready to play, you'll have to choose what kind of table stakes you want to play
    • Our matching system evaluates your account performance, activity, velocity, trust, etc. (don't ask me to explain these, they are explained in the whitepaper very well)
    • Based on how you score in all those metrics, we find a table that suites your needs (table stakes, game type, etc.) with your rankings (our matching system calculations)
    • Your buy in at the table is taken, and you "sit down". You can then proceed to play
    • If you quit a table prematurely to try getting re-matched to a table with a partner/cheater, you'll lose the stake you put up to join the first table.
    That is all pretty standard and there's nothing complex about any of this. The matching system takes care of Syble problems and collusion (human and bot alike). So you pay twice the stake to get to the second table (and the odds of getting a table with your partner are still VERY VERY low). Three times the stake to get to the third table, etc.

    If you try to manipulate the results of the game (so instead of cheating through collusion, you try to cheat by rewriting parts of the blockchain) your results will be rejected by your peers, (who, without your cheating partner, have no incentive and probably not the technology to assist you). Your table results then get thrown to a third-party collection of other game clients on the network that will review and validate your results. When they find the discrepancy (which is your account) guess what happens? Your account is flagged in the network, and it becomes useless to cheaters (how we handle this is an involved and detailed process I'm not getting into right now). Let's just say all the stake you have in the network is risked when you risk your account. Which you'll have to do for each account.

    There are also throttling conditions to prevent accounts with low trust scores (but not yet flagged) from engaging in high-volume instances of risky activity (i.e. if you're a low TS account, you wont' be allowed to table-hop indefinitely, we'd cap you at some arbitrary number).

    So... That's it Mr. Smith. I've fielded your questions (even the unrelated ones). I've walked you through the probabilities involved with collusion, and explained why I really don't care about bots. I hope I've satisfied your questions up to now, but this has been a massive time-sink, and I absolutely do have other things I need to accomplish this week.

    Have a great Thursday.
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    John Smith

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    Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
    « Reply #141 on: April 16, 2015, 07:55:26 pm »

    No you've just been, as a team especially, condescending and rude.

    I understand what you point out and it doesn't address my question, and the fact that we cannot communicate from each other's perspective should be viewed as normal, not something for you and others to be mean about.Yes it costs a player a certain stake to play with respect to their game, and each player will want to know their roi in regards to this, and you continually will not address the simplicity of my inquiry into this.

    I want to understand an example of how much money I must put up in order to play and be counted in this regard.

    A person thinking about creating a bot will want to know the same thing.  If I understand you have a created an environment where the average online player today play multiple tables, and now they will only be playing one?   And you say the 2nd table requires twice the stake?  Do you mean 1 stake for each table, or  actually 1 stake for the first and 2 stakes for the 2nd for a total of 3?

    I am asking very simple related questions and getting a wall of derision, which I do not want.

    Again simply put if you create a profitable seat for a human then there is an incentive for peoples to saturate it with bots, if its not a profitable seat no poker players will play.

    I am still unclear if you understand this or if clarity on the above questions addresses this, and so yes it seems it effects collusion on the network which is exactly the psychology players have for playing rake and playing on centralized models they trust with their money.

    My layman's understanding is that you have not contemplated whether the game will be profitable on average (with respect to other fields) for the individual player, and so you have not been able to show that playing on your network is a reasonable proposition from the poker players standpoint. If you require a player to tie up their role, then they expect a certain roi% to do so (over a given time), it must be shown to be at least as worthwhile as today's game for example.  But furthermore, somehow that I do not at all understand, you have made it not profitable or feasible for a person to use a bot account to collect this profit, yet it IS feasible for a human to play...and until I am able to resolve the difference between the two I cannot but feel that there is no economy here.
    « Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 08:09:32 pm by John Smith »
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    patrickgamer

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    Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
    « Reply #142 on: April 17, 2015, 03:10:12 am »

    Sorry if you feel slighted by me, but your line of questioning is starting to grate on me.
    Quote from: John Smith
    I want to understand an example of how much money I must put up in order to play and be counted in this regard.
    You bet what you want to bet, as you would at any poker game. I'm afraid I completely don't understand your line of questioning. It reads, as someone who doesn't know what you're getting at, as though you are asking how much money you HAVE to bet to play. That of course, is dependant on you. You pick the amount you're willing to put on the line, and then we match you with others.

    There is no minimum or maximum related to funding your account, of course if you aren't willing to bet much, you won't win much, and if you go too high or too low, you may have trouble finding players willing to wager your amount. SO... it pretty much works like you'd expect.

    Seriously JS: If my discourse with you is classified as condescending and rude, then really you won't like working with me. I'm really trying to meet you in middle ground, and even now in your last post you continue to push an agenda of economics and your theories on the subject, despite my repeated attempts to explain that this thread is not the place for that.

    Put another way: it's not Pokereum's objective to create a business space for your career. It's our goal to provide a trustless (and awesome) poker network for players to play and have fun, leveraging the awesomeness of decentralization and cryptocurrencies. You want me to tell you that Pokereum is the place where you, as a professional with preexisting strategies and approaches of play, can maintain your business on our network. I don't know - I can't say, and it's really for you to determine post-launch. Factors such as player competencies, appetite for wagers, etc. are all outside of our control.

    We could try to shape our player base to suit a particular end (like maximizing ROI for professional players) but we aren't going to do that. It's not the team's concern.

    SO... for the final time: if your interest in Pokereum is strictly career-based, then honestly nothing in this forum can (nor should) be of interest to you. The only thing that will mater is what the player ecosystem looks like after launch. Our philosophy on trustless systems is a peripheral concern to professional players (in as much as, "okay it's safe, so I can trust my playtime here"). Our belief in operating as a DAO has no impact on your earnings. Our management of anti-collusion and anti-cheating is a reassurance in security. That's about it. Everything else in your last post was already addressed, and if you haven't caught on yet, then I can't help further. Not because I don't want to, but because I really don't know how else to explain it. If another reader on this thread wants to chime in and see if they can bridge the gap, please do. But so help me... if it's yet another alias of JS I will start ignoring posts altogether.
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    John Smith

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    Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
    « Reply #143 on: April 17, 2015, 04:49:09 am »

    Sorry if you feel slighted by me, but your line of questioning is starting to grate on me.
    I realize you don't appreciate my delivery/grammar, but I think the "slight" is more than just my feeling. What's more is innovators comments have me in a state of disgust and dishearten-ment.

    Quote
    You bet what you want to bet, as you would at any poker game. I'm afraid I completely don't understand your line of questioning. It reads, as someone who doesn't know what you're getting at, as though you are asking how much money you HAVE to bet to play. That of course, is dependant on you. You pick the amount you're willing to put on the line, and then we match you with others.

    There is no minimum or maximum related to funding your account, of course if you aren't willing to bet much, you won't win much, and if you go too high or too low, you may have trouble finding players willing to wager your amount. SO... it pretty much works like you'd expect.
    I am asking about the stake in the network in fact it seems to function like a bankroll, and I am curious how the actual numbers might look etc. And I don't need rapid condescending answers or insults to my character or intelligence. I have calmly and consistently stated I am looking to understand. 

    Quote
    Seriously JS: If my discourse with you is classified as condescending and rude, then really you won't like working with me.
    We don't have this problem because I won't be involved with innovator.
    Quote
    I'm really trying to meet you in middle ground, and even now in your last post you continue to push an agenda of economics and your theories on the subject, despite my repeated attempts to explain that this thread is not the place for that.
    I'm worried that my points seem irre-levant because we have not yet understood their purpose. 
    Quote
    Put another way: it's not Pokereum's objective to create a business space for your career. It's our goal to provide a trustless (and awesome) poker network for players to play and have fun, leveraging the awesomeness of decentralization and cryptocurrencies. You want me to tell you that Pokereum is the place where you, as a professional with preexisting strategies and approaches of play, can maintain your business on our network. I don't know - I can't say, and it's really for you to determine post-launch. Factors such as player competencies, appetite for wagers, etc. are all outside of our control.
    This seems to support my 'fear'. 

    Quote
    We could try to shape our player base to suit a particular end (like maximizing ROI for professional players) but we aren't going to do that. It's not the team's concern.
    This truly shows me I have insight in this regard.
    Quote
    SO... for the final time: if your interest in Pokereum is strictly career-based, then honestly nothing in this forum can (nor should) be of interest to you. The only thing that will mater is what the player ecosystem looks like after launch. Our philosophy on trustless systems is a peripheral concern to professional players (in as much as, "okay it's safe, so I can trust my playtime here"). Our belief in operating as a DAO has no impact on your earnings. Our management of anti-collusion and anti-cheating is a reassurance in security. That's about it. Everything else in your last post was already addressed, and if you haven't caught on yet, then I can't help further. Not because I don't want to, but because I really don't know how else to explain it. If another reader on this thread wants to chime in and see if they can bridge the gap, please do. But so help me... if it's yet another alias of JS I will start ignoring posts altogether.
    I don't suppose you put your paper up so others would agree.  I see a collusion problem solved by a form of seating where the players do not get to choose their table.  I don't see how another site could not just implement this already.   I see a site like stars with 100k+ players online at one, and then a site like seals which gathers about 200 max. You are offering a subset of poker with a barrier to enter, and I wonder if you intend it solely for cash based play (I mean can it all facilitate organized seating for an mtt?) .

    You have built a poker game from a "not the pro's perspective", and there is no such thing. One of our biggest conflicts here my friend, is that you have only created a decentralized platform and not addressed the decentralization of poker (which is fine but we are not totally on the same page, again which is fine, but "decentralization" means different things to us in this regard) .  You created a solution in a vacuum, but it is not implemented in one. 

    I have already sown support for this project and the subprojects it alludes to. Many new and interested players read about pokereum, nxtpoker, and ethereum through me everyday. I have designed a cradle for this solution that complements it completely, you are blind to it because you are mistaken on what poker is, and what poker will be.

    I have not done or said what you think I have. And the only reason I have threads with titles like "this project is over" is so I can finally talk to someone.  You should not expect me to multiaccount in a deceptive fashion like you outline. You are missing half the picture, and you are getting mad at me for it. 

    There are fears from illogical players, and fears from intelligent players.  I would believe you have to cater to both. The cliffs of my thesis would be "you have to cater to the pros in order to sell this product as poker". I think I have shown this, it seems quite logical for me.  But I have difficulty explaining you see, which is why rheomodes are re-levant.

    « Last Edit: April 17, 2015, 05:25:22 am by John Smith »
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    innovator256

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    Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
    « Reply #144 on: April 17, 2015, 06:48:00 am »

    Sorry if you feel slighted by me, but your line of questioning is starting to grate on me.
    Quote from: John Smith
    I want to understand an example of how much money I must put up in order to play and be counted in this regard.
    You bet what you want to bet, as you would at any poker game. I'm afraid I completely don't understand your line of questioning. It reads, as someone who doesn't know what you're getting at, as though you are asking how much money you HAVE to bet to play. That of course, is dependant on you. You pick the amount you're willing to put on the line, and then we match you with others.

    There is no minimum or maximum related to funding your account, of course if you aren't willing to bet much, you won't win much, and if you go too high or too low, you may have trouble finding players willing to wager your amount. SO... it pretty much works like you'd expect.

    Seriously JS: If my discourse with you is classified as condescending and rude, then really you won't like working with me. I'm really trying to meet you in middle ground, and even now in your last post you continue to push an agenda of economics and your theories on the subject, despite my repeated attempts to explain that this thread is not the place for that.

    Put another way: it's not Pokereum's objective to create a business space for your career. It's our goal to provide a trustless (and awesome) poker network for players to play and have fun, leveraging the awesomeness of decentralization and cryptocurrencies. You want me to tell you that Pokereum is the place where you, as a professional with preexisting strategies and approaches of play, can maintain your business on our network. I don't know - I can't say, and it's really for you to determine post-launch. Factors such as player competencies, appetite for wagers, etc. are all outside of our control.

    We could try to shape our player base to suit a particular end (like maximizing ROI for professional players) but we aren't going to do that. It's not the team's concern.

    SO... for the final time: if your interest in Pokereum is strictly career-based, then honestly nothing in this forum can (nor should) be of interest to you. The only thing that will mater is what the player ecosystem looks like after launch. Our philosophy on trustless systems is a peripheral concern to professional players (in as much as, "okay it's safe, so I can trust my playtime here"). Our belief in operating as a DAO has no impact on your earnings. Our management of anti-collusion and anti-cheating is a reassurance in security. That's about it. Everything else in your last post was already addressed, and if you haven't caught on yet, then I can't help further. Not because I don't want to, but because I really don't know how else to explain it. If another reader on this thread wants to chime in and see if they can bridge the gap, please do. But so help me... if it's yet another alias of JS I will start ignoring posts altogether.

    ++ I dont think there is anything else to explain more than repeating your answers and expecting different results. I think Einstein had a saying for that...
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    John Smith

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    Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
    « Reply #145 on: April 17, 2015, 07:01:45 am »

    I think Einstein had a saying for that...
    so bloody unnecessary.  Let it be known: I want nothing to do with you, or anyone associated with you.

    Disgusting.

    Patrick, sorry for wasting your time, we shouldn't waste more, there can be no collaboration here.
    « Last Edit: April 17, 2015, 07:04:44 am by John Smith »
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    innovator256

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    Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
    « Reply #146 on: April 17, 2015, 07:38:01 am »

    For the fun of it I will break silence. Why so sensitive? All hints point to the clue that all the questions you are either not in the scope of the project or answered through the whitepaper. Pgamer is doing an awesome job explaining (prob better than me) the concepts but it seems all for not. To try to do the same thing over on my part would be like running in place and you are hurt for what?

    You emailed me telling me how you normally get kicked out of communities due to your unstable/esoteric nature resulting in disruption. I can post all the emails here is you'd like. Also one of your first emails is how this project will never succeed without your blog. I can also post that here for everyone to see if you like...so what gives? I don't think not understanding the project is not the problem here..to me it seems more like disruption masked as legit concern for knowledge. To the audience note the objective take and witness the next set of irrational outbursts...
    « Last Edit: April 17, 2015, 10:01:40 am by innovator256 »
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    John Smith

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    Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
    « Reply #147 on: April 17, 2015, 06:29:24 pm »

    Why so sensitive?
     
    Questioning peoples sanity because we don't like what they say or how they say it is despicable. It's also extremely dismiss and disrespectful.
    Quote
    You emailed me telling me how you normally get kicked out of communities due to your unstable/esoteric nature resulting in disruption.

    To the audience note the objective take and witness the next set of irrational outbursts...

    Quote from: Re: Complaints from the players' main global community on DDoss Attacks
    Quote from: TopPair2Pair;46675800
    Evolving area or revolving door…?
    So this is why the rake is soo high???? lol. damn you ddossers !!

    Quote from: J.Smithy
        Considering the truth of it, its not really funny though is it?  It has already been extensively shown that third parties used for security and trust are themselves security leaks that end up costing the players dearly.  The centralized poker model cannot help but facilitate this especially in relation to its counterpart.
        It’s true to that recent re-levation of ddos attacks is not only natural evolution but also very founded in well understood economics.  As technology grows (for example as other “institutions” gain attack proof security mechanisms ie bitcoin for banking/currency), there will be more and more such pressure on weaker but bountiful institutions such as poker stars and other successful sites.
        In this regard sites function no less like that of a bank, and thus require no less than the security measures and mechanisms that an online banking system would need (if nothing else such security leaks provide a perfect channel for money laundering/fraud etc.).
        There are in fact two possibly (and likely/efficient solutions) but unfortunately for the centralized model they are not so accessible but for the players.   The first involves moving poker to a p2p type platform, and the 2nd involves paying enough of the attackers to hold up the system so that they might prefer to do so rather than attack it.  Then there only needs to be a certain limited amount of “bounty” offered in relation to creating a large enough pool that would protect the game (ie 50+% decentralized in it’s own NE).
        If it can be shown (and I am sure it can) that the cost of securing the game in this fashion is feasible and especially more feasible than the current rake exiting the game (especially for this purpose) is equally favorable (or more so), then there can be an equilibrium shown that will necessarily suggest a theoretical solution (which would then necessarily fit current known “working” experiments) .
        https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vxjxE-7QMAvo95UzhWftWJ3Ke_gAoNLTQQEudNeUQeY/edit
       
    Quote
    Pokereum: An Efficient Smart Contract Dependent Decentralized Poker Platform
        Abstract.     A secure peer-to-peer (p2p) version of traditional online poker would allow trustless and provably fair poker games.
        In the above solution (prob the link won’t work but its a 30 page leading paper on the subject, already in coding stage and nearly finished apparently), which is the most prominent of today’s present circumstance, there is nearly exactly this solution, except these author’s have not discussed the profitability of the game with regards to effective rake or the possibility of bots or “super-software” that might exploit such a profitable game.
        I think though, that with all of these things together, we do in fact have enough parameters to derive and solve an equilibrium solution, which could be not only exciting for all of the players of today and the future, but could also be used to put pressure on the current status quo standards of the game.
        Lastly and most interestingly there seems to be a middle ground adjustment the centralized site models and current status quo sites could take that might extend their own sustainability and profitability, but one wonders if they will stumble upon this adjustment or whether they would care if presented it. Seems quite obvious now though, the centralized model (especially with “servers”) has a limited time, probably less than a year if they continually refuse to adopt ideal payment processing systems for the players benefit.
        As Gzesh points out not being able to secure the game in this regard (ie ddsos attacks) might not be directly related to the security of the players roll’s but knowing that with a superior payment processing option available, that allows player’s zero threat to security in regards to their rolls (and at zero cost), but it certainly cannot be said by any individual knowledgeable on such security systems, that lack of proper security in one area does not cast doubt on all others in which that company is contracted to secure.
    I don't know if ya'll know but poker has been largely unplayable recently across many sites.  Many admit its ddos attacks, Poker Stars won't.

    I just don't think I deserve this:

    For pointing out there are solutions available.
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    John Smith

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    Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
    « Reply #148 on: April 17, 2015, 06:36:38 pm »

    You see all the major forums, media sites, and much other affiliate media (or mediums) are all funded by the top poker sites, through affiliate programs.  Of course this is conspiracy talk on any of these related sites, but that doesn't make it not true and/or not blatantly true. I don't mean that there is an agenda, just a systematic general "political stance" towards how poker should be. "Good" moderators often get promoted to jobs within the industry, "good" posters often become moderators.

    I don't believe though, that my want to talk with the players about disrupting the centralized industry, means what you think it means.  I don't think it warrants what you think it warrants.

    I think rather neither of you have listened to or given a chance to anything I have said, which largely has to do with an inquiry into what the implications of your project are from a players perspective.

    « Last Edit: April 17, 2015, 06:40:41 pm by John Smith »
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    innovator256

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    Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
    « Reply #149 on: April 18, 2015, 11:22:53 pm »

    It really doesn't make sense though...The very premise of the effort is from the player perspective, from user experience, to security, confidence based on provable fair platform, to facilitating a gamified incentivized return customer mechanism detailed in the whitepaper. I promise to engage if you can do this:

    Post your questions one at a time and I will address them, please do not go off tangent. Also address my response to your answers directly. Without this and with your style of discussion, is hard to dialog without wasted effort and I am not sure if there can be one , which is what we have been getting at... At most 5 short sentences to start. Then maybe a productive outcome can ensue...
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    John Smith

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    Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
    « Reply #150 on: April 19, 2015, 03:03:56 am »

    It really doesn't make sense though...The very premise of the effort is from the player perspective, from user experience, to security, confidence based on provable fair platform, to facilitating a gamified incentivized return customer mechanism detailed in the whitepaper.
    No it makes sense, its just a different and difficult perspective than you are used to.  You did not design pokereum from the players perspective, you built it from the pseduo/de facto players perspective that poker sites and media have been projecting on the players. I understand you don't understand me, but I have put forth a lot of material backing up my perspective.  I am a full time player.  I have over 100k games behind me, albeit at small/mid stakes, but understand I AM the players perspective.

    I promise to engage if you can do this:
    I have already explicity stated I will not be working with you now or in the future, nor anyone associated with you. I would appreciate it if you put back up my post saying "fuck you".  I would also appreciate, if we wind up on a project together in the future, if you let me know (even pseudonomously) so I can leave that group too.   Perhaps I am worthless and its not a loss, but I am just being clear.

    Post your questions one at a time and I will address them, please do not go off tangent. Also address my response to your answers directly. Without this and with your style of discussion, is hard to dialog without wasted effort and I am not sure if there can be one , which is what we have been getting at... At most 5 short sentences to start. Then maybe a productive outcome can ensue...
    None of my words are difficult for those who are sincere.  Nothing is tangential. I have 200+ articles on the decentralization of poker and its surrounding literature, FROM THE PLAYERS PERSPECTIVE, under the blog titled "THEWEALTHOFCHIPS".  It would be far more helpful, if ya'll assumed it was on topic and READ what I write to you, rather than the assumption its off topic because you THINK its off topic. As for your sentiments.  I have explained very clearly, you need to THINK about the economics of the game and especially from the players perspective (I can already hear you assuming that's a tangent ffs). Bots and superhuman software DO in fact exist, and IS a relevant issue:

    http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28/internet-poker/bots-888poker-1455008/
    https://www.pokersnowie.com/
    http://poker.srv.ualberta.ca/about

    Obviously you are assuming I have come here to FUD, when the reality is I need to see if I understand your project, because if I do, and it seems I do, then with a little teak in regards to the economy and bots, you have not just a niche for "pseduo random" seating style poker, but any game type and any variant with any conditions in a perfectly outlinable and formulated equilibrium for a platform.

    It is REALLY simple, but if you don't stop telling me to shut up because I am off topic then what will we do?  Either Pokererum will be profitable and favorable for the pro poker player or not.  I don't care if you haven't thought about it and its not in your paper, it doesn't matter.  LISTEN. If its not profitable for the pro, your platform is useless.  If it IS profitable, it will arise bots/supersoftware. I propose a change in your paper, that uses this to your advantage, NO DIFFERENT, than how satoshi uses malicious computing power to bitcoin's advantage with incentive.

    So sure, maybe I am wrong, and dumb, and you can laugh at me, for posting a conversation I would rather be more private than in the middle of the community thread.  But I am not worried about being wrong, rather more so about being right.  And I do NOT think that warrants your ass to ridcule me.  If i EVER get any pull with the community that ends up taking over our game, your ass will be out of it so fast. Like I said, disgusting...

    By the way, you do not know what dialogue is: http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/Chaos-Complexity/dialogue.pdf And patrik told me I can bring up anything I want and they will understand.  I am re-levating Rheomodes then because I need them to explain my "thesis", to which neither of you could ever understand regardless with these fucking attitudes. http://www.gci.org.uk/Documents/DavidBohm-WholenessAndTheImplicateOrder.pdf

    One of you asking me to write a thesis, the other gives me 5 short sentences.  GET OUT OF OUR GAME!!!

    edit: btw, you both have largely given me the impression, that you have an articulated opinion about me, my thoughts, and my "works"...but what has become more and more clear to me, at least what it seems...is you have not read a smidgen of it with any degree of sincerity. Now I understand we are all busy here, but in a game of such imperfect information (knowing i've read your paper probably more times than anyone but possibly the authors), who do we think has the edge?

    https://thewealthofchips.wordpress.com/2015/01/20/ideal-introductions/
    Quote
    Ideal Introductions refers to a sort of subset of Bohmian dialog or some form of preparation depending on what drives reality, our axiomatic views, and what our perspective is. It simply refers to the optimal ways to prepare for such a “meeting” of strangers or persons of X% of missing information.  How can two parties communicate most effectively in order to fulfill the most gainful direction of dialog?

    Can both “players” interact so receptively that neither trumps the others important content?  How can we cut through our biases and preconceived notions at lightening speed?  Should we rely on technology such as facebook feeds or job profiles for this?

    Can we each recognize the importance of “Ideal Introductions”?

    Understanding this might implicitly reduce our understanding and implementation of the minimum protocols for duck duck goose.


    « Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 03:16:08 am by John Smith »
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    innovator256

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    Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
    « Reply #151 on: April 19, 2015, 03:32:30 am »

    oh my..Impossible. Good luck
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    patrickgamer

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    Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
    « Reply #152 on: April 19, 2015, 01:29:04 pm »

    JS: you ask why we are so dismissive and impatient with you. Here's the bottom line from my perspective:
    Quote from: John Smith
    You did not design pokereum from the players perspective, you built it from the pseduo/de facto players perspective that poker sites and media have been projecting on the players,
    You've said that now multiple times. It tells us:
    • That you think we are some kind of puppet that are played by media strings and have no regard for players. This is the complete opposite of everything we're trying to do. Obviously, if I haven't gotten through to you that everything with decentralization, UI, etc. are all from player perspectives then... let's just disengage b/c you aren't going to get it.
    • You insist that anything not in perfect alignment with your own views means it's not in alignment with player views. That's the pinnacle of conceit and self-centred thinking. That is why I don't think you'd be a good fit for the team, and that's also why your posts are so easily dismissed. You aren't the only player engaging us, and yet you're the only one with this emphasis on pseudo-economics.
    • It's a betrayal of your line of thought in purporting that you are the only person capable of thinking through player problems and solving them. No one reading this post has to be psychic to read between your lines and see that, for all the grief you're giving i256 you're being just as condescending.
    [li]
    [/li][/list]
    Your last few posts makes it really clear how frustrated you are that other people are not listening and not taking you seriously. I understand that, but I've already told you how to fix it. Stop being lazy. Anyone can jump on a board and start spewing whatever they want. I'm reminded of what my first-year philosophy teacher said once:
    Quote from: patrickgamer's first year philosophy teacher
    Everyone has the right to their own opinions, but not all opinions are equal.
    Quote
    Your situation reminds me of this a lot. If you want to validate yourself and your ideas, you have to put in the work to formalize them. You said it'll be a waste of time - I say it can't possibly be more of a waste of time than getting banned by a bunch of other boards and posting randomly in other people's threads to try to get attention...

    As for this thread, your theories are just the one-off opinion of some random guy with no qualifications or credentials (being a poker player isn't enough considering the type of argument you're trying to make).

    As I've said before: this thread is for fielding questions about Pokereum, not validating your ideas. You can start your own thread about your ideas if you want, but I'm sure it'll be bereft of activity because, really, no one cares until you've got something to back it all up.

    If what I'm saying here is condescending or rude, then so be it. If nothing else, I hope it shows the rest of the NXT community and readers here that the Pokereum team is being patient, considerate, and willing to field questions that are even peripherally related to our project. I think all my answers have been thoughtful and well-prepared.

    Now....I'd really like to hear from some other people who have more direct questions about our project and get this thread back on track!
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    John Smith

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    Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
    « Reply #153 on: April 19, 2015, 06:30:50 pm »


      Quote from: John Smith
      You did not design pokereum from the players perspective, you built it from the pseduo/de facto players perspective that poker sites and media have been projecting on the players,
      You've said that now multiple times. It tells us:
      • That you think we are some kind of puppet that are played by media strings and have no regard for players. This is the complete opposite of everything we're trying to do. Obviously, if I haven't gotten through to you that everything with decentralization, UI, etc. are all from player perspectives then... let's just disengage b/c you aren't going to get it.
      Again if you start with the assumption I am wrong, stupid, and off topic nothing I write will make sense.  I never said you are a media puppet etc, nor anything of that sort.  You have designed a model based on the recreational players perspective, which is the perspective sites/etc. use to market their product to player.  You have NOT designed this from a POKER PLAYERS perspective. 

      Poker is a game where players look for the most +ev opportunities to spend their time/monies. You have not considered this and it has bled through in your design.  You have done all this from "not the players" perspective.  Using the word "decentralized", and repeatedly arguing me without understanding what and why I am pointing this out will not change this obviousness.

      Quote
      • You insist that anything not in perfect alignment with your own views means it's not in alignment with player views. That's the pinnacle of conceit and self-centred thinking. That is why I don't think you'd be a good fit for the team, and that's also why your posts are so easily dismissed. You aren't the only player engaging us, and yet you're the only one with this emphasis on pseudo-economics.
      I am however the most knowledgeable player on this subject BY FAR. Pseudo-economics would be suggesting bots aren't real, and that if they are they aren't a consideration.  Recs AND Pros will avoid this project like the plague for that. And again its not self-centred and conceited for me to point out such an obvious error of "perspective".
      http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29/news-views-gossip/ipoker-bugs-bot-collusion-accusations-again-1241501/

      Quote
      • It's a betrayal of your line of thought in purporting that you are the only person capable of thinking through player problems and solving them. No one reading this post has to be psychic to read between your lines and see that, for all the grief you're giving i256 you're being just as condescending.
      [li]
      [/li][/list]
      I am not making a statement about others capabilities, I am simple explaining and pointing out that which I can clearly see.
      Quote
      Your last few posts makes it really clear how frustrated you are that other people are not listening and not taking you seriously. I understand that, but I've already told you how to fix it. Stop being lazy. Anyone can jump on a board and start spewing whatever they want. I'm reminded of what my first-year philosophy teacher said once:
      Quote from: patrickgamer's first year philosophy teacher
      Everyone has the right to their own opinions, but not all opinions are equal.
      You can say all you want you would read it.  But your attitude clearly shows you would not with any sincerity.  How quickly you turn my words into the ridiculous accusation that you are a media puppet etc.  Much of my points are very well articulated and explained in many ways.  Many peoples from around the world from other projects and other areas of the industry are finding them quite helpful and intelligible.  Like I pointed out before, you clearly have not read a single word of mine with any sincere intent. Also, what of rheomodes?

      Quote
      Your situation reminds me of this a lot. If you want to validate yourself and your ideas, you have to put in the work to formalize them. You said it'll be a waste of time - I say it can't possibly be more of a waste of time than getting banned by a bunch of other boards and posting randomly in other people's threads to try to get attention...
      I don't think specific fonts and indentations is going to open your mind, nor should it it be a requirement for dialogue.

      Quote
      As for this thread, your theories are just the one-off opinion of some random guy with no qualifications or credentials (being a poker player isn't enough considering the type of argument you're trying to make).
      Yes I don't have credentials and qualifications so my opinion is worthless and random. I have already come to understand this attitude of you and your team.

      Quote
      As I've said before: this thread is for fielding questions about Pokereum, not validating your ideas. You can start your own thread about your ideas if you want, but I'm sure it'll be bereft of activity because, really, no one cares until you've got something to back it all up.

      If what I'm saying here is condescending or rude, then so be it. If nothing else, I hope it shows the rest of the NXT community and readers here that the Pokereum team is being patient, considerate, and willing to field questions that are even peripherally related to our project. I think all my answers have been thoughtful and well-prepared.

      Now....I'd really like to hear from some other people who have more direct questions about our project and get this thread back on track!
      You won't find anyone more relevant than I. 

      Quote from: patrickgamer
      Dude: please clean up your posts. Do a post preview and make sure you're properly closing quotes and such, otherwise it's a mess to try to read.
      ;)

      Another bot http://www.liquidpoker.net/news/1126793/Doug__quot;WCGRider_quot;_Polk_going_against_No_Limit_Bot_for_$100,000_
      « Last Edit: April 26, 2015, 05:37:23 pm by John Smith »
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      pokerlover

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      Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
      « Reply #154 on: May 30, 2015, 07:39:27 am »

      What's the status, how far are you from a working solution.?

      Somewhere in the keiser-report, episode 762, the guest (Nick Williamson, CEO of Pythia) said that they had a working prototype of decentralized poker. Is he talking about your project? (I wasn't allowed to post the link)
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      rajc

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      Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
      « Reply #155 on: May 30, 2015, 08:03:46 am »

      will the crowd-funding happen according to old plan?
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      JohnHolmes

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      Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
      « Reply #156 on: May 31, 2015, 03:17:00 am »

      What's the status, how far are you from a working solution.?

      Somewhere in the keiser-report, episode 762, the guest (Nick Williamson, CEO of Pythia) said that they had a working prototype of decentralized poker. Is he talking about your project? (I wasn't allowed to post the link)

      Nick Williamson is from http://getcredits.io/
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      innovator256

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      Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
      « Reply #157 on: June 25, 2015, 02:12:27 am »

      What's the status, how far are you from a working solution.?

      Somewhere in the keiser-report, episode 762, the guest (Nick Williamson, CEO of Pythia) said that they had a working prototype of decentralized poker. Is he talking about your project? (I wasn't allowed to post the link)

      Close roadmap set, client consensus and smart contract backend in the works. See whitepaper :

      https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vxjxE-7QMAvo95UzhWftWJ3Ke_gAoNLTQQEudNeUQeY/edit?pli=1

      I don't think he was, he is not involved in the project at the moment.
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      innovator256

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      Re: Nxtdice-NxtPoker Correction Re-issuance / IP Assignment
      « Reply #158 on: June 25, 2015, 02:20:12 am »

      Quick question, this is the closest thread to my question that I can find, sorry.  I'm looking for anyone that has any information on whether importing hands from a site like hhsmithy.com into PT4 or HM2 will be detectable by the poker site, like Stars or PartyPoker.  I have not found any cases of this being detected yet, which is surprising given how much of an advantage you get.  Any information would be helpful, thanks guys!

      The software is not a site, its p2p software there fore the players are pseudonymous at best...also one of the multi heuristic strategies in the software limit the potential of collusion is pseudonymous player shuffling, so its pretty mush impossible to tell who is who even your friend you were sitting next to in the previous hand, except at private table. So hand history software :: null
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      innovator256

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      Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
      « Reply #159 on: June 25, 2015, 02:23:39 am »

      will the crowd-funding happen according to old plan?

      Its pretty much set in stone with the exceptions of modifications made by stark...and also for the mechanism will be totally automated and member initiated (smart contract), with early donors being able to provide commitment hash to redeem tokens ahead of later donors. More info will be provided soon.
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      pokerlover

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      Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
      « Reply #160 on: August 08, 2015, 09:21:27 am »

      When can I start playing poker with your software?
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      JohnHolmes

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      Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
      « Reply #161 on: November 23, 2015, 05:46:25 am »

      When can I start playing poker with your software?

      Is pokereum still being developed?
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      innovator256

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      Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
      « Reply #162 on: November 23, 2015, 12:47:43 pm »

      When can I start playing poker with your software?

      Is pokereum still being developed?

      Yep very much so, but entirely under Ethereum, and under a grand new scheme ;)...Although I doubt nxters would support. Looks like most here suffer under the rabbit tunnel vision of "Nxt maximalism" and fail to see the innovation that Ethereum brings, when in fact we can all work together...I once pleaded with devs to make smart contracts a priority....

      In any case there could still be a portion of the Grand new scheme and its tokens which pokereum is a part of,  sold through The Nxt asset exchange...All depends on interest though. And I hope I don't get crucified for making the factual statement above...
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      innovator256

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      Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
      « Reply #163 on: November 23, 2015, 12:51:29 pm »

      When can I start playing poker with your software?

      Very soon..It is a long term project and it took some reorganizing and moving to another platform (Ethereum smart contracts) that enables the functionality we need...But you will here soon of the some releases
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      innovator256

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      Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
      « Reply #164 on: November 23, 2015, 01:13:07 pm »

      This is in relation to the statement I made above, if anyone would like early access or early backing to our grand scheme, similar to the infamous supernet, but with actually deflationary mutual fund like dapps, funneling actual profits to one set off tokens, Pokereum is just one of the dapps funeling into one set of 100 million tokens, there are others too already with working prototypes on the precipice of unvieling ;) someone say slack? :)...let me know, show some support or you can tell me to piss off...

      I have waited very long to see what the angle of attack is and how Pokereum fits into the grand scheme of things...It has materialized and we are ready, even though some of our team has been decimated over the months.

      Just to be clear, this is an Ethereum MEGA project, but I was there at the very beginning of NXT so I have a special attachment for the model type of community nxt brings. We can all work together if you want. There are one set of tokens which already have value (I am sure one of our early backers can testify to this if he or she chooses to  :-* quote this if you see this post to confirm... )  multiple dapp projects, free bounties (marketing, development, comunity org etc..) Early backing discounts, things I hoped Nxt would have enabled through smart contracts. Nevertheless I think Nxters can benefit from early involvement now if they so choose to.

      This is the plan :

      If there is enough support I will write some discounts into smart contract tokens to interested parties, then get a list of people willing to be active for bounties and someone here can keep track of these interested people. Then we can have a more clear discussion and give early access.

      I have waited very long and watched this space beofore moving, taking my time and not issuing and selling worthless assets that have no potential for realistic Profits/dividends, the time is now and you are welcome to inquire more. I am even semi public follow me  and ask questions here :https://twitter.com/cryptoInnovator

      If not, I will gladly leave you die hard nxters alone. Congrats to cfb on tangle...


      Edit : Forgot to add that...if there is any significant support / commitment at all, I will post the site here first before any other communities which is a pointer to all the information location ( explanation, demos, discussion etc...) I discussed above. Thanks
      « Last Edit: November 23, 2015, 02:02:13 pm by innovator256 »
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      Alfred Dulaire

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      Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
      « Reply #165 on: November 23, 2015, 01:28:08 pm »

      I have waited very long and watched this space before moving, taking my time and not issuing and selling worthless assets that have no potential for realistic Profits/dividends, the time is now and you are welcome to inquire more. I am even semi public follow me  and ask questions here :https://twitter.com/cryptoInnovator

      If not, I will gladly leave you die hard nxters alone. Congrats to cfb on tangle...

      It is a very interesting project!

      Can't we make some copy/pasta of it and adapt it to NXT so we run our own poker stuff ?
      I think you'll make even more money see how low NXT is actually ! And these games are always a massive hit.
      « Last Edit: November 23, 2015, 02:23:18 pm by Alfred Dulaire »
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      innovator256

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      Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
      « Reply #166 on: November 23, 2015, 01:36:01 pm »

      I have waited very long and watched this space before moving, taking my time and not issuing and selling worthless assets that have no potential for realistic Profits/dividends, the time is now and you are welcome to inquire more. I am even semi public follow me  and ask questions here :https://twitter.com/cryptoInnovator

      If not, I will gladly leave you die hard nxters alone. Congrats to cfb on tangle...

      It is a very interesting project!

      Can't we make some copy/pasta of it and adapt it to NXT so we run our own poker stuff ?
      I think you'll make even more money see how low NXT is actually ! And these games are always a massive hit.

      Well you could, but it would be of no use...also I doubt the Nxt devs would write custom transaction types to support just one application into the core of Nxt software...You would need to write your own meta scheme on top of nxt. A good example is the supernet project and you can see that it doesn't touch NXT core at all even though it is of great benefit to Nxt
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      Alfred Dulaire

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      Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
      « Reply #167 on: November 23, 2015, 02:23:46 pm »

      I have waited very long and watched this space before moving, taking my time and not issuing and selling worthless assets that have no potential for realistic Profits/dividends, the time is now and you are welcome to inquire more. I am even semi public follow me  and ask questions here :https://twitter.com/cryptoInnovator

      If not, I will gladly leave you die hard nxters alone. Congrats to cfb on tangle...

      It is a very interesting project!

      Can't we make some copy/pasta of it and adapt it to NXT so we run our own poker stuff ?
      I think you'll make even more money see how low NXT is actually ! And these games are always a massive hit.

      Well you could, but it would be of no use...also I doubt the Nxt devs would write custom transaction types to support just one application into the core of Nxt software...You would need to write your own meta scheme on top of nxt. A good example is the supernet project and you can see that it doesn't touch NXT core at all even though it is of great benefit to Nxt

      Is the smart contract really still dead for NXT?
      You state in your white paper that you may move from ethereum to NXT once this is made.
      It may be a smart move!
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      innovator256

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      Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
      « Reply #168 on: November 23, 2015, 02:34:26 pm »

      I have waited very long and watched this space before moving, taking my time and not issuing and selling worthless assets that have no potential for realistic Profits/dividends, the time is now and you are welcome to inquire more. I am even semi public follow me  and ask questions here :https://twitter.com/cryptoInnovator

      If not, I will gladly leave you die hard nxters alone. Congrats to cfb on tangle...

      It is a very interesting project!

      Can't we make some copy/pasta of it and adapt it to NXT so we run our own poker stuff ?
      I think you'll make even more money see how low NXT is actually ! And these games are always a massive hit.

      Well you could, but it would be of no use...also I doubt the Nxt devs would write custom transaction types to support just one application into the core of Nxt software...You would need to write your own meta scheme on top of nxt. A good example is the supernet project and you can see that it doesn't touch NXT core at all even though it is of great benefit to Nxt

      Is the smart contract really still dead for NXT?
      You state in your white paper that you may move from ethereum to NXT once this is made.
      It may be a smart move!


      Not sure about the status of smart contracts on nxt, although at one point cfb was building a sql based abstraction for smart contracts on nxt db. In anycase, it would have a lot of usefulness to Nxt if it was still implemented. But I suspect there is a lot of risk and not enough man power to asses the risk of unleashing turing completeness on a ~ $6 mill live blockchain...

      Well the move was the next logical conclusion. Smart contracts was a unique feature I was waiting for since 2013, rather than trying to manipulate cryptographic primitives myself or noob-launch my own blockchain . I wait for the best implemetation, then implement application layers on top and see how to try to provide access to the whole cryto economy united for easier mainstream adoption rather than a maximalist idealogy...


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      Alfred Dulaire

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      Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
      « Reply #169 on: November 23, 2015, 02:39:43 pm »

      try to provide access to the whole cryto economy united for easier mainstream adoption

      This is something I'd like to read more often ;)
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      innovator256

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      Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
      « Reply #170 on: November 23, 2015, 03:20:06 pm »

      try to provide access to the whole cryto economy united for easier mainstream adoption

      This is something I'd like to read more often ;)

      I'd like to see more of this as well, in the wake of cooption of the crypto distruption mainstream narrative by the private blockchain folks...
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      MadCow

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      Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
      « Reply #171 on: November 25, 2015, 12:53:40 pm »

      This is in relation to the statement I made above, if anyone would like early access or early backing to our grand scheme, similar to the infamous supernet, but with actually deflationary mutual fund like dapps, funneling actual profits to one set off tokens, Pokereum is just one of the dapps funeling into one set of 100 million tokens, there are others too already with working prototypes on the precipice of unvieling ;) someone say slack? :)...let me know, show some support or you can tell me to piss off...

      I have waited very long to see what the angle of attack is and how Pokereum fits into the grand scheme of things...It has materialized and we are ready, even though some of our team has been decimated over the months.

      Just to be clear, this is an Ethereum MEGA project, but I was there at the very beginning of NXT so I have a special attachment for the model type of community nxt brings. We can all work together if you want. There are one set of tokens which already have value (I am sure one of our early backers can testify to this if he or she chooses to  :-* quote this if you see this post to confirm... )  multiple dapp projects, free bounties (marketing, development, comunity org etc..) Early backing discounts, things I hoped Nxt would have enabled through smart contracts. Nevertheless I think Nxters can benefit from early involvement now if they so choose to.

      This is the plan :

      If there is enough support I will write some discounts into smart contract tokens to interested parties, then get a list of people willing to be active for bounties and someone here can keep track of these interested people. Then we can have a more clear discussion and give early access.

      I have waited very long and watched this space beofore moving, taking my time and not issuing and selling worthless assets that have no potential for realistic Profits/dividends, the time is now and you are welcome to inquire more. I am even semi public follow me  and ask questions here :https://twitter.com/cryptoInnovator

      If not, I will gladly leave you die hard nxters alone. Congrats to cfb on tangle...


      Edit : Forgot to add that...if there is any significant support / commitment at all, I will post the site here first before any other communities which is a pointer to all the information location ( explanation, demos, discussion etc...) I discussed above. Thanks

      I would like to confirm that I purchased 1 million Pokereum tokens under the original NXTpoker roadmap, and subsequently purchased another ~750K tokens in two batches after the change from NXT platform to Ethereum. All three purchases came with nice early-bird discounts, which I believe are still available, although reduced from the levels I received ~12 months ago now that the Pokereum launch date is imminent.

      I've been around NXT since (almost) the beginning, and have been fortunate enough to be an early investor in many  NXT related projects over the last 24 months, and I believe NXT has a very bright future ahead (I always like the 'NXT is the Linux of crypto' analogy - great tech, great community, decentralised & open development).

      Having said that, I initially decided to get into NXT as a hedge against Bitcoin, and I see Ethereum based projects like Pokereum as a hedge against NXT & Bitcoin. None of us know how the future will play out. As a NXTer I was initially disappointed when I heard the news that NxtPoker was not going to be possible within the current smart contracts roadmap for NXT, but later I came to see this as a benefit to me personally as it diversified my crypto portfolio into another strong crypto contender, Ethereum, which at that stage I had not invested in.

      My strategy with crypto has always been to build a diversified portfolio that gives me the best chance of satisfying my investment goal - "if crypto takes off, I do well", so that means holding a diversified range of coins & assets that have good chances of achieving mainstream success. I prefer that strategy to betting everything on one crypto project. I think many crypto investors are the same. Speculators and traders will dance with anything 'hot', but investment is a long-term game, and with crypto it makes sense to invest in quality projects with good people behind them.

      Pokereum ticks a lot of boxes in my otherwise heavily NXT oriented portfolio:
      - Poker has obvious mass adoption appeal
      - Ethereum platform is a good hedge for NXT
      - Pokereum is a good hedge for Pangea (I also own a good sized investment in Pangea)

      So I hodl Pangea on NXT, and Pokereum on Ethereum - whatever happens (and I honestly believe both projects will succeed) I have my decentralised poker bases covered! Decentralised Poker as the first crypto 'killer app' seems very likely in the next phase of crypto development over the next 1-2 years.

      I'm more than satisfied with all my dealings to date with innovator256, and I'm happy to confirm any further details to any interested parties.
      « Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 01:33:57 pm by MadCow »
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      innovator256

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      Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
      « Reply #172 on: November 25, 2015, 02:52:38 pm »

      This is in relation to the statement I made above, if anyone would like early access or early backing to our grand scheme, similar to the infamous supernet, but with actually deflationary mutual fund like dapps, funneling actual profits to one set off tokens, Pokereum is just one of the dapps funeling into one set of 100 million tokens, there are others too already with working prototypes on the precipice of unvieling ;) someone say slack? :)...let me know, show some support or you can tell me to piss off...

      I have waited very long to see what the angle of attack is and how Pokereum fits into the grand scheme of things...It has materialized and we are ready, even though some of our team has been decimated over the months.

      Just to be clear, this is an Ethereum MEGA project, but I was there at the very beginning of NXT so I have a special attachment for the model type of community nxt brings. We can all work together if you want. There are one set of tokens which already have value (I am sure one of our early backers can testify to this if he or she chooses to  :-* quote this if you see this post to confirm... )  multiple dapp projects, free bounties (marketing, development, comunity org etc..) Early backing discounts, things I hoped Nxt would have enabled through smart contracts. Nevertheless I think Nxters can benefit from early involvement now if they so choose to.

      This is the plan :

      If there is enough support I will write some discounts into smart contract tokens to interested parties, then get a list of people willing to be active for bounties and someone here can keep track of these interested people. Then we can have a more clear discussion and give early access.

      I have waited very long and watched this space beofore moving, taking my time and not issuing and selling worthless assets that have no potential for realistic Profits/dividends, the time is now and you are welcome to inquire more. I am even semi public follow me  and ask questions here :https://twitter.com/cryptoInnovator

      If not, I will gladly leave you die hard nxters alone. Congrats to cfb on tangle...


      Edit : Forgot to add that...if there is any significant support / commitment at all, I will post the site here first before any other communities which is a pointer to all the information location ( explanation, demos, discussion etc...) I discussed above. Thanks

      I would like to confirm that I purchased 1 million Pokereum tokens under the original NXTpoker roadmap, and subsequently purchased another ~750K tokens in two batches after the change from NXT platform to Ethereum. All three purchases came with nice early-bird discounts, which I believe are still available, although reduced from the levels I received ~12 months ago now that the Pokereum launch date is imminent.

      I've been around NXT since (almost) the beginning, and have been fortunate enough to be an early investor in many  NXT related projects over the last 24 months, and I believe NXT has a very bright future ahead (I always like the 'NXT is the Linux of crypto' analogy - great tech, great community, decentralised & open development).

      Having said that, I initially decided to get into NXT as a hedge against Bitcoin, and I see Ethereum based projects like Pokereum as a hedge against NXT & Bitcoin. None of us know how the future will play out. As a NXTer I was initially disappointed when I heard the news that NxtPoker was not going to be possible within the current smart contracts roadmap for NXT, but later I came to see this as a benefit to me personally as it diversified my crypto portfolio into another strong crypto contender, Ethereum, which at that stage I had not invested in.

      My strategy with crypto has always been to build a diversified portfolio that gives me the best chance of satisfying my investment goal - "if crypto takes off, I do well", so that means holding a diversified range of coins & assets that have good chances of achieving mainstream success. I prefer that strategy to betting everything on one crypto project. I think many crypto investors are the same. Speculators and traders will dance with anything 'hot', but investment is a long-term game, and with crypto it makes sense to invest in quality projects with good people behind them.

      Pokereum ticks a lot of boxes in my otherwise heavily NXT oriented portfolio:
      - Poker has obvious mass adoption appeal
      - Ethereum platform is a good hedge for NXT
      - Pokereum is a good hedge for Pangea (I also own a good sized investment in Pangea)

      So I hodl Pangea on NXT, and Pokereum on Ethereum - whatever happens (and I honestly believe both projects will succeed) I have my decentralised poker bases covered! Decentralised Poker as the first crypto 'killer app' seems very likely in the next phase of crypto development over the next 1-2 years.

      I'm more than satisfied with all my dealings to date with innovator256, and I'm happy to confirm any further details to any interested parties.

      Thanks for your light :). Just to be clear  early-bird discounts are still available but reduced from the time of early involvement of Madcow and other earlies. There is a total of 100 million tokens of this mega umbrella project one of which is pokereum dapp, there is another dapp with a working prototype and potential for other new ones, funneling profits to one set of tokens. The Price is 0.000221btc/token and there is also only 5 million tokens left for anymore backer activity, the other 85% goes toward DAO budget activity... Inquire or make yourself known if interested. Dont wait till this is public.


      Also I thought nxters love free stuff? These tokens already have value that will be confirmed by early backer last price  smart contract claim.  Will you wait till its public or in another comunity to act? The plan for interested parties in bounties is to see or get a list of people willing to be active for bounties and someone here can keep track of these interested people....let yourselfs be known...:)


      Pokereum is also just one dapp other dapps under one Governance DAO..think of supernet but in a DAO form with multiple dapps funneling excess profits to one set of 100 million tokens...thats as far I say for now...

      « Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 03:02:05 pm by innovator256 »
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      blackyblack1

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      Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
      « Reply #173 on: November 26, 2015, 07:49:00 am »

      I'm more than satisfied with all my dealings to date with innovator256, and I'm happy to confirm any further details to any interested parties.
      Could you please inform us what milestones are achieved by Pokereum project? Did you see working prototype? Source code? Video of the gameplay?
      I do not know anything about Pokereum progress so far but you should be really aware of anything going on. So please let us know what is the current progress from your point of view.
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      blackyblack1

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      Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
      « Reply #174 on: November 26, 2015, 07:54:24 am »

      There is a total of 100 million tokens of this mega umbrella project one of which is pokereum dapp, there is another dapp with a working prototype and potential for other new ones, funneling profits to one set of tokens. The Price is 0.000221btc/token and there is also only 5 million tokens left for anymore backer activity, the other 85% goes toward DAO budget activity...
      So you estimate the marketcap of Pokereum at 7000000 USD. What can you show to the investors to claim so high marketcap? It is bigger than marketcap of NXT and it is 10% of Ethereum to compare with.

      Also I thought nxters love free stuff? These tokens already have value that will be confirmed by early backer last price  smart contract claim.
      Could you please elaborate what is this value the tokens have? I do not understand this "early backer last price smart contract claim" - it does not make any sense to me. And where is this "free stuff"? Can I have some of this "free stuff"?
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      MadCow

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      Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
      « Reply #175 on: November 28, 2015, 12:30:57 pm »

      I'm more than satisfied with all my dealings to date with innovator256, and I'm happy to confirm any further details to any interested parties.
      Could you please inform us what milestones are achieved by Pokereum project? Did you see working prototype? Source code? Video of the gameplay?
      I do not know anything about Pokereum progress so far but you should be really aware of anything going on. So please let us know what is the current progress from your point of view.

      I'm a first stage investor only and not involved in the dev side of pokereum, so I'll leave it to innovator256 to comment on the progress of coding work and such to date. The point of my earlier post was mainly to confirm my purchase price of 0.000221btc/token (less discount) for the purposes of bootstrapping the DAO.

      I did my research into innovator256 and Nxtpoker/pokereum before I invested 12 months ago when there was just an idea, and I came to the conclusion this was a serious project with potential (i.e NOT a scam), and the early bird discount I received made it a good risk:reward investment for my portfolio. It's similar to other first round investments I've made in NXT and crypto where you're basically judging the potential of an unknown forum 'personality' with an idea before much dev work has happened. There's a large risk of failure, but also the potential for large rewards that increase the earlier you invest when uncertainty and risk are the greatest (e.g. BCNext & his 73 investors).

      I've read the white paper, seen some screen shots, and had regular communication with pokereum people over 12 months, so my pokereum first round investment feels similar to others I've made (mynxt.info, DORCS, NXTprivacy, Privatebet, NXTcoinsco etc) in that progress can be be slow without tangible milestones for long periods, and risk of failure is very high, but that doesn't mean things aren't happening, and people aren't working hard. Investing in long term crypto projects requires patience, and cojones.

      I certainly don't advise anyone invest in pokereum (or any other crypto project) without doing a lot of research, but if you're going to get an early-bird discount that means you probably wont have all the details, coz once there's a working product the doubt evaporates and everyone wants in.

      The failure rate for non-scams is still going to be very high, but with a working decentralised poker app a marketcap of 7M USD will suddenly look very small. I don't know exactly how close we are to a release, but innovator256 seems to be suggesting it's not too far away.
      « Last Edit: November 28, 2015, 12:35:44 pm by MadCow »
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      JohnHolmes

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      Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
      « Reply #176 on: November 30, 2015, 07:04:17 am »

      When can I start playing poker with your software?

      Is pokereum still being developed?

      Yep very much so, but entirely under Ethereum, and under a grand new scheme ;)...Although I doubt nxters would support. Looks like most here suffer under the rabbit tunnel vision of "Nxt maximalism" and fail to see the innovation that Ethereum brings, when in fact we can all work together...I once pleaded with devs to make smart contracts a priority....

      In any case there could still be a portion of the Grand new scheme and its tokens which pokereum is a part of,  sold through The Nxt asset exchange...All depends on interest though. And I hope I don't get crucified for making the factual statement above...

      I'd be interested in buying a small amount of pokereum if sold on NXT asset exchange. Would there still be discounts for smaller investors, or do we have to wait for an exchange? I think you'd find interest from NXTers but people want details.
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      JohnHolmes

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      Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
      « Reply #177 on: January 16, 2016, 02:33:26 am »

      When can I start playing poker with your software?

      Is pokereum still being developed?

      Yep very much so, but entirely under Ethereum, and under a grand new scheme ;)...Although I doubt nxters would support. Looks like most here suffer under the rabbit tunnel vision of "Nxt maximalism" and fail to see the innovation that Ethereum brings, when in fact we can all work together...I once pleaded with devs to make smart contracts a priority....

      In any case there could still be a portion of the Grand new scheme and its tokens which pokereum is a part of,  sold through The Nxt asset exchange...All depends on interest though. And I hope I don't get crucified for making the factual statement above...

      I'd be interested in buying a small amount of pokereum if sold on NXT asset exchange. Would there still be discounts for smaller investors, or do we have to wait for an exchange? I think you'd find interest from NXTers but people want details.

      Any response here? I thought Pokereum would launch before Pangea but now I'm not sure ....
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      innovator256

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      Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
      « Reply #178 on: January 24, 2016, 11:14:05 pm »

      I'm more than satisfied with all my dealings to date with innovator256, and I'm happy to confirm any further details to any interested parties.
      Could you please inform us what milestones are achieved by Pokereum project? Did you see working prototype? Source code? Video of the gameplay?
      I do not know anything about Pokereum progress so far but you should be really aware of anything going on. So please let us know what is the current progress from your point of view.

      I have been off nxt threads for a while, just focusing on Ethereum tech... I am sure he can confirm this... I showed him the video of a partially completed front end in action back then...
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      innovator256

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      Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
      « Reply #179 on: January 24, 2016, 11:35:59 pm »

      There is a total of 100 million tokens of this mega umbrella project one of which is pokereum dapp, there is another dapp with a working prototype and potential for other new ones, funneling profits to one set of tokens. The Price is 0.000221btc/token and there is also only 5 million tokens left for anymore backer activity, the other 85% goes toward DAO budget activity...
      So you estimate the marketcap of Pokereum at 7000000 USD. What can you show to the investors to claim so high marketcap? It is bigger than marketcap of NXT and it is 10% of Ethereum to compare with.

      Also I thought nxters love free stuff? These tokens already have value that will be confirmed by early backer last price  smart contract claim.
      Could you please elaborate what is this value the tokens have? I do not understand this "early backer last price smart contract claim" - it does not make any sense to me. And where is this "free stuff"? Can I have some of this "free stuff"?

      Answer1
      xcuse my lateness, 7000000 USD at the time of your writing was the notional value as per last price from each backer... and the then ~7000000 USD is irrelevant now considering the evolution of the nature of the project (its not just pokereum now). There is research, development in front and back-end (smart contract) that are available to the next set of private commitments before we go public, once its public its a different pricing point. But right now the holidays took the gas out of our devs and I am back hearding cats and training a new set to take over and priv backers to bring back confidence in old devs...Also its not about the platform, its the potential value and ROI of the project on top and the technical development to probability market entry...

      Answer2

      Well I tried to explain in the previous thread, I guess it wouldn't make sense till the last minute....Every token has a price based on it usability...the value here is that these tokens are non inflationary, they are a set number, and they are a used for decentralized decision making see boardroom.io. Plus there are multiple Dapps(not just Pokereum) that will return value (ie some will call this dividends) to these one set of tokens...More so the price of each token is been set by the last backers (some are anonynous, others have made it know, see above) just like the last price of a coin when you buy it on an exchange...

      There is a builtin plan to reward work contribution which will be public soon, so there are different ways of acquiring the tokens. ie you can help keep a list of interested parties? there there is a reward schedule for that... hope it helps
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      innovator256

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      Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
      « Reply #180 on: January 24, 2016, 11:42:07 pm »

      When can I start playing poker with your software?

      Is pokereum still being developed?

      Yep very much so, but entirely under Ethereum, and under a grand new scheme ;)...Although I doubt nxters would support. Looks like most here suffer under the rabbit tunnel vision of "Nxt maximalism" and fail to see the innovation that Ethereum brings, when in fact we can all work together...I once pleaded with devs to make smart contracts a priority....

      In any case there could still be a portion of the Grand new scheme and its tokens which pokereum is a part of,  sold through The Nxt asset exchange...All depends on interest though. And I hope I don't get crucified for making the factual statement above...

      I'd be interested in buying a small amount of pokereum if sold on NXT asset exchange. Would there still be discounts for smaller investors, or do we have to wait for an exchange? I think you'd find interest from NXTers but people want details.

      Any response here? I thought Pokereum would launch before Pangea but now I'm not sure ....

      Well I don't know about other projects progress, it really is not  concern though, i think you'd be suprised, right not things are painfully developing since the holidays
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      innovator256

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      Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
      « Reply #181 on: January 24, 2016, 11:45:27 pm »

      When can I start playing poker with your software?

      Is pokereum still being developed?

      Yep very much so, but entirely under Ethereum, and under a grand new scheme ;)...Although I doubt nxters would support. Looks like most here suffer under the rabbit tunnel vision of "Nxt maximalism" and fail to see the innovation that Ethereum brings, when in fact we can all work together...I once pleaded with devs to make smart contracts a priority....

      In any case there could still be a portion of the Grand new scheme and its tokens which pokereum is a part of,  sold through The Nxt asset exchange...All depends on interest though. And I hope I don't get crucified for making the factual statement above...

      I'd be interested in buying a small amount of pokereum if sold on NXT asset exchange. Would there still be discounts for smaller investors, or do we have to wait for an exchange? I think you'd find interest from NXTers but people want details.

      Not sure about the asset exchange due to the low response. So it might be through an ethereum wallet directly...in the mean time you could get together with blackyblack1 and make a list of interested parties for bounty payouts?
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      blackyblack1

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      Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
      « Reply #182 on: January 25, 2016, 05:40:45 am »

      Answer1
      Answer2
      Thanks for elaborated response. I was playing with ethereum tutorial recently... Do you have a sample of your backend smart contract? I'd like to have a look at it. Nothing fancy - any piece of code will fit.
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      blackyblack1

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      Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
      « Reply #183 on: January 25, 2016, 05:41:14 am »

      Not sure about the asset exchange due to the low response. So it might be through an ethereum wallet directly...in the mean time you could get together with blackyblack1 and make a list of interested parties for bounty payouts?
      No thanks.
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      innovator256

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      Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
      « Reply #184 on: March 09, 2016, 10:18:45 pm »

      Answer1
      Answer2
      Thanks for elaborated response. I was playing with ethereum tutorial recently... Do you have a sample of your backend smart contract? I'd like to have a look at it. Nothing fancy - any piece of code will fit.

      Sorry I barely check this thread, but this here is an depreciated example form a while alittle while ago : https://gist.github.com/innovator256/77ccd8e86846221471e8

      Its just an interface api, for regitering new users, chaecking if a user exists, updtaes, logging to the actual blockchain and similar functions....Let me know if you'd like a tutorial on our slack :) we actually have some devs on are still in the learning process
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      blackyblack1

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      Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
      « Reply #185 on: March 10, 2016, 07:58:40 am »

      Answer1
      Answer2
      Thanks for elaborated response. I was playing with ethereum tutorial recently... Do you have a sample of your backend smart contract? I'd like to have a look at it. Nothing fancy - any piece of code will fit.

      Sorry I barely check this thread, but this here is an depreciated example form a while alittle while ago : https://gist.github.com/innovator256/77ccd8e86846221471e8

      Its just an interface api, for regitering new users, chaecking if a user exists, updtaes, logging to the actual blockchain and similar functions....Let me know if you'd like a tutorial on our slack :) we actually have some devs on are still in the learning process
      It looks like a piece of ad board software. Are you sure it is poker related code?
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      innovator256

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      Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
      « Reply #186 on: March 10, 2016, 08:58:20 pm »

      Answer1
      Answer2
      Thanks for elaborated response. I was playing with ethereum tutorial recently... Do you have a sample of your backend smart contract? I'd like to have a look at it. Nothing fancy - any piece of code will fit.

      Sorry I barely check this thread, but this here is an depreciated example form a while alittle while ago : https://gist.github.com/innovator256/77ccd8e86846221471e8

      Its just an interface api, for regitering new users, chaecking if a user exists, updtaes, logging to the actual blockchain and similar functions....Let me know if you'd like a tutorial on our slack :) we actually have some devs on are still in the learning process
      It looks like a piece of ad board software. Are you sure it is poker related code?

      That is not poker code at all. Just scrap example code, like you asked...though I am sure you've seen more examples around?
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      bitme

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      Re: Pokereum Crowdfunding
      « Reply #187 on: June 16, 2017, 10:14:17 pm »

      Hi NXTfolks. Pokereum is now superdao. I was interested in this project in 2014 and still am but http://crowdfunding.superdao.io/ displays no info. Anyone here knows when ico starts?
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