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[Ann] New final, ORA and MIC assets Redemption Process - last call
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Author Topic: [Ann] New final, ORA and MIC assets Redemption Process - last call  (Read 42819 times)

Nxter

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Re: [Ann] New final, ORA and MIC assets Redemption Process - last call
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2015, 04:19:22 pm »



I am not fully sure what the issue is with the exchange booth. I have to admit, I haven't spent much time with a NXT Currency yet.


(so still no word from Darkhorse?)

See my thread about this issue: https://nxtforum.org/monetary-system/monetary-sistem-exchange-booth-bug/
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Mac Red

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Re: [Ann] New final, ORA and MIC assets Redemption Process - last call
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2015, 05:35:03 pm »

There is no painless birth and the ORA currency seems to verify this.

Unfortunately, the XORA currency was issued with 8 decimals and there it seems to be a limitation in the exchange booth of the NRS monetary system to trade XORA for nxt. The consequence is that It is now not possible to trade the currency for fractions of NXT, which would kill the market.

We have now at least 3 options to resolve this situation:

1- Claim back the currency that has been already distributed in order to reissue XORA with less decimals. This is going be very difficult since XORA has already been distributed to more than 100 accounts

2- Make the XORA currency unofficial and issue a new currency and redistribute it

3- See if the devs can do something about this. See the second point of: https://nxtforum.org/monetary-system/monetary-sistem-exchange-booth-bug/

I dunno really what would be the "best" alternative. I guess we could ask ourselves if the market is of any importance to ORA right now? Would it be worth the hassle & loss of another good name in order to improve/fix the speculative part of the currency? Taken in consideration there could also be other ways to solve the problem.

On the flip side I don't see much wrong with option #2 above either. The issue was discovered quickly and I doubt ORA would lose any followers just because we've been extra thoughtful.

I'd be happy to just let our treasures/issuers vote on what to do.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2015, 05:53:13 pm by Mac Red »
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gvans

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Re: [Ann] New final, ORA and MIC assets Redemption Process - last call
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2015, 08:43:46 pm »

Being extra thoughtful sounds good to me. So I'd go for option 2.
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barbierir

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Re: [Ann] New final, ORA and MIC assets Redemption Process - last call
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2015, 08:55:28 pm »

The only drawback of option 2 is the need for a new name, Xora and Kora were so cool.
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Kora

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Re: [Ann] New final, ORA and MIC assets Redemption Process - last call
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2015, 10:31:22 pm »

It looks like the consensus is to re-issue another MS. I'm OK with that too!! Is anyone still strongly in favor of keeping the existing XORA?
« Last Edit: June 17, 2015, 12:34:36 am by Kora »
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futurist

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Re: [Ann] New final, ORA and MIC assets Redemption Process - last call
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2015, 12:50:15 am »

I think functionality is most important

Kora

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Re: [Ann] New final, ORA and MIC assets Redemption Process - last call
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2015, 01:24:41 am »

I think functionality is most important

Jack did make a good case for sticking with the XORA, and having a 1:1 with NXT might make the shuffling aspect work better

The issuance with 8 decimal points may not be as big of a problem as you infer.

True, it would seem to set a floor valuation of 1 XORA as 1 NXT.  I don't believe it will ultimately hamper the utility of XORA for shuffling, but does hamper the speculative market.  I disagree with your premise that it would 'kill the market'.  In fact, I believe it eases the transition from speculation to utility.  (Of course for this utility, shuffling must be implemented).

Pros:
1) Boon to XORA holders at >100x increase when compared with ORA asset trading.
2) Sets a peg of 1 NXT for users to shuffle.  Can get in and out (NXT<->XORA) without losing value to buy/sell margins.
3) Increased valuation provides a great incentive for all XORA users to shuffle for the bounties.

Cons:
1) Eliminates XORA as a speculative currency.

My vote is to leave as-is.  (X)ORA can move forward without re-issuance, and ultimately may benefit from this mistake.

BUT ... would people accept the windfall gain to existing ORA holders, probably not, and I would be uncomfortable with trying to justify the 1:1 to new ORA community members who paid so much more than I did. It doesn't feel good to me.

It was an honest mistake on my part (I'm pleading the 'Garza defense', if the decimals don't match it's a scam), but if we continue with the resultant  artificial floor of 1 XORA= 1 NXT we would be open to a lot of criticism that we were knowingly lining our own pockets. I don't want that!! We've always tried to put ORA development on a solid ethical footing, so I think the right thing to do is re-issue.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2015, 01:29:22 am by Kora »
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Jack Needles

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Re: [Ann] New final, ORA and MIC assets Redemption Process - last call
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2015, 01:35:26 am »

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« Last Edit: January 16, 2016, 12:35:37 am by Jack Needles »
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Jack Needles

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Re: [Ann] New final, ORA and MIC assets Redemption Process - last call
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2015, 01:36:45 am »

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« Last Edit: January 16, 2016, 12:35:45 am by Jack Needles »
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Kora

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Re: [Ann] New final, ORA and MIC assets Redemption Process - last call
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2015, 01:54:32 am »

Perhaps I’m missing something, but I really don’t see the problem to leave XORA as-is.  I think there may be too much emphasis on XORA for short term market speculation, and not on the ultimate utility of shuffling.

Does the current market dry up at the cost of 1 NXT per XORA: ABSOLUTELY YES!  You’d have to be crazy to exchange at a 1-to-1 rate RIGHT NOW.  But, when/if XORA shuffling is functioning as intended, the price becomes IRRELEVANT.  The most important economic factors are exchange VOLUME and price STABILITY.

Let me elaborate.

XORA wishes to position itself as the prominent currency for shuffling NXT.  Well, what are the most important factors for a shuffler?

Perspective of a shuffle user:
(1) I have NXT
(2) I want to anonymize my NXT
(3) I want to do so in a timely manner
(4) I want to minimize my cost
(5) I want it to be easy

If XORA is to be used for this purpose:

(A) Needs enough shuffling participants so shuffling can provide true anonymity.
(B) NXT<->XORA exchange needs enough volume to cycle in and out of the desired currency within a timely manner.
(C) Shuffle software (plugin?) must be EASY TO USE.

With the currency exchange booth providing no lower option than 1 NXT per XORA, that becomes (for all intents and purposes) an unmoving price peg for a LONG TIME.  Trades may still occur out of the exchange booth (with escrow or InstantDEX, for instance) if a user wishes to sacrifice some value for a faster turnaround time.

In my opinion, leaving XORA with 8 decimal places (and therefore limiting exchange rate as 1 NXT) should be considered with all of the above factors as a NET BENEFIT for the utility of shuffling, and a HUGE BOON to all XORA project supporters!

(Now, there are still some unresolved issues.  XORA will likely have much more short term exchange SELLERS than BUYERS and that could creates an unbalanced economic cycling. Shuffling bounties may be able to encourage more XORA buyers/holders since it would produce a stable, positive return in XORA).

Great post Jack, thanks so much for your input in trying to navigate through this situation!!!

Yes, having 1:1 with NXT would make the shuffle aspects of ORA a lot more robust from the get-go, and that's very appealing.

Can we mitigate the effects of the other consequences, the massive windfall and potential perception problems?
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Jack Needles

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Re: [Ann] New final, ORA and MIC assets Redemption Process - last call
« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2015, 02:19:41 am »

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« Last Edit: January 16, 2016, 12:35:17 am by Jack Needles »
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Kora

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Re: [Ann] New final, ORA and MIC assets Redemption Process - last call
« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2015, 02:53:55 am »

Perhaps I’m missing something, but I really don’t see the problem to leave XORA as-is.  I think there may be too much emphasis on XORA for short term market speculation, and not on the ultimate utility of shuffling.

Does the current market dry up at the cost of 1 NXT per XORA: ABSOLUTELY YES!  You’d have to be crazy to exchange at a 1-to-1 rate RIGHT NOW.  But, when/if XORA shuffling is functioning as intended, the price becomes IRRELEVANT.  The most important economic factors are exchange VOLUME and price STABILITY.

Let me elaborate.

XORA wishes to position itself as the prominent currency for shuffling NXT.  Well, what are the most important factors for a shuffler?

Perspective of a shuffle user:
(1) I have NXT
(2) I want to anonymize my NXT
(3) I want to do so in a timely manner
(4) I want to minimize my cost
(5) I want it to be easy

If XORA is to be used for this purpose:

(A) Needs enough shuffling participants so shuffling can provide true anonymity.
(B) NXT<->XORA exchange needs enough volume to cycle in and out of the desired currency within a timely manner.
(C) Shuffle software (plugin?) must be EASY TO USE.

With the currency exchange booth providing no lower option than 1 NXT per XORA, that becomes (for all intents and purposes) an unmoving price peg for a LONG TIME.  Trades may still occur out of the exchange booth (with escrow or InstantDEX, for instance) if a user wishes to sacrifice some value for a faster turnaround time.

In my opinion, leaving XORA with 8 decimal places (and therefore limiting exchange rate as 1 NXT) should be considered with all of the above factors as a NET BENEFIT for the utility of shuffling, and a HUGE BOON to all XORA project supporters!

(Now, there are still some unresolved issues.  XORA will likely have much more short term exchange SELLERS than BUYERS and that could creates an unbalanced economic cycling. Shuffling bounties may be able to encourage more XORA buyers/holders since it would produce a stable, positive return in XORA).

Great post Jack, thanks so much for your input in trying to navigate through this situation!!!

Yes, having 1:1 with NXT would make the shuffle aspects of ORA a lot more robust from the get-go, and that's very appealing.

Can we mitigate the effects of the other consequences, the massive windfall and potential perception problems?

Thanks!  I do acknowledge your concerns, but over the last couple of days I began to see this 'mistake' as a potentially positive development for XORA's shuffling utility.  I just hope I've been able to express my thoughts clearly enough that it all comes together to create a cohesive picture.  There really are a lot of reasons why 1:1 with NXT is quite a good functional choice.

As far as the windfall perception, I've personally tried to disregard that factor and focus instead on what properties XORA needs to be successful at the intended goal of shuffling, and it really does seem to me that a 1:1 ratio just "makes the most sense".

But the windfall perception can be damning.

I guess I'd focus first on WHY this ratio was chosen (even though ultimately it started with an honest mistake), and why 1:1 helps XORA become a good choice for shuffling.  If more parties can add to the rationale I started above, then perhaps a more cohesive reasoning for this decision can be formed.

And then, I'd do something like this:

* Distribute remaining XORA as previously discussed
* A new giveaway, sponsored by big holders  (NOT TREASURY FUNDS, and myself included).
* Move all remaining treasury funds to a trusted third party escrow (ie: Poloniex) with occasional distributions to cover bounties (ask for a N-of-M signees for any required releases).

Thanks Jack! I'm going to meditate on the situation, and wait for further input and opinions from the community. I'm in two minds.

I agree that one way to mitigate the 'windfall' problem would be to organise another giveaway, and maybe get the big XORA holders to donate some XORA to the NXT dev team & foundation etc. That would generate more support for ORA, and do something really useful for NXT ongoing funding problems.

Also, from watching the NXT community for a long while now it is obvious to most observers that part of NXT's success to date is partly explained by having committed whales funding needed tasks & people. If we stick with XORA then we would have made people very wealthy, BUT ONLY IF ORA::SHUFFLE WORKS, and that's a very similar situation to the original 73 NXT IPO people: 'You might end up rich, but only if NXT succeeds', and that obviously encouraged enough of them to get involved to get NXT where it is today. ORA *might* experience the same 'motivation' effect.

Time to meditate and see what the subconscious thinks!

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Jack Needles

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Re: [Ann] New final, ORA and MIC assets Redemption Process - last call
« Reply #32 on: June 17, 2015, 03:18:41 am »

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« Last Edit: January 16, 2016, 12:34:54 am by Jack Needles »
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Kora

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Re: [Ann] New final, ORA and MIC assets Redemption Process - last call
« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2015, 04:17:57 am »

A couple more thoughts on the windfall:

One thing XORA has to be VERY proud of is a GREAT starting distribution.  BUT, I'd hate to see those that sold early miss out on a GOOD THING.

WHAT IF, we did one more round of distribution based upon the INITIAL DISTRIBUTION LIST (889, IIRC?).  Could be funded by treasury and/or XORA whales.  Wouldn't have to be the full 166,666 amount, but something is better than nothing...

(Minus this obvious sock puppet: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=620518.msg8145910#msg8145910)

This way, nobody is left feeling like they missed the boat...

Thanks Jack, that's another good suggestion to add to the mix!

I think we might need a community vote to settle this eventually
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Jack Needles

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Re: [Ann] New final, ORA and MIC assets Redemption Process - last call
« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2015, 04:46:13 am »

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« Last Edit: January 16, 2016, 12:34:35 am by Jack Needles »
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LocoMB

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Re: [Ann] New final, ORA and MIC assets Redemption Process - last call
« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2015, 05:09:08 am »


hi Guys!

regardless the pros and cons of re-issuing, do you really want to go through that again?

Regarding trusted escrow == POLONIEX: isn't decentralization all about NOT having to rely on external central parties like that?

Just remember when they announced you had to KYC with them on an EXTREMELY short timeline, and people were not able to withdraw their balances?

Like- send us a passport copy, or all your bitcoin R belong to us?

 I would NOT call that 'Trusted'!
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jl777

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Re: [Ann] New final, ORA and MIC assets Redemption Process - last call
« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2015, 05:55:30 am »


hi Guys!

regardless the pros and cons of re-issuing, do you really want to go through that again?

Regarding trusted escrow == POLONIEX: isn't decentralization all about NOT having to rely on external central parties like that?

Just remember when they announced you had to KYC with them on an EXTREMELY short timeline, and people were not able to withdraw their balances?

Like- send us a passport copy, or all your bitcoin R belong to us?

 I would NOT call that 'Trusted'!
do not send stuff to polo for escrow
I asked to get stuff out, but no response from them yet
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chanc3r

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Re: [Ann] New final, ORA and MIC assets Redemption Process - last call
« Reply #37 on: June 17, 2015, 05:57:32 am »

Well I just sent my MIC to the account...
Hopefully I get something back  ;D
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Nxter

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Re: [Ann] New final, ORA and MIC assets Redemption Process - last call
« Reply #38 on: June 17, 2015, 07:03:36 am »

Well I just sent my MIC to the account...
Hopefully I get something back  ;D

Sure!
We just need to make the decision of how to proceed first.   ;)
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gvans

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Re: [Ann] New final, ORA and MIC assets Redemption Process - last call
« Reply #39 on: June 17, 2015, 08:46:00 am »


WHAT IF, we did one more round of distribution based upon the INITIAL DISTRIBUTION LIST (889, IIRC?).  Could be funded by treasury and/or XORA whales.  Wouldn't have to be the full 166,666 amount, but something is better than nothing...


If that will happen I'd be happy to chime in with half of my winning logo-bounty, 433,330 ORA :)
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