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[ANN]ORA::NXT MS Currency::'Shuffling' for NXT::jl777 involved::Anon fungibility
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fragora

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As Jack said the shuffling rewards have to substantial as it is the key feature and purpose of the project now. Without the shufflers in sufficient numbers, the project fails. As regards over supply in the market, I wouldnt worry too much about this as the near term price dosnt really matter once the service is being used.
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Kora

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Excess money supply can break the market, remember NXTTY your rewards program monthly 5%.
jl777 program also has its dividend 10% SuperNet to form new users.

All had ample time to buy Ora / Mic
Issuance Date:
Ora 30-07-14 asset id: 16194910134118257692
Mic 16-05-14 asset id: 10323526944609454094

proportions Ora/Mic (14.7% & 12.5%) it's okay


I propose a unique reserve fund (22.8% + 16%) 38.8% for development investment projects, events, advertising, charity, XOR Foundation or other purposes is correct.

The XOR Foundation could manage the fund  :o

@xupxup, thanks for your input, much appreciated!!

The idealist in me agrees with you 100% - keep as much of the ORA left over for future support and development. That's been my goal right from the beginning.

After establishing the basic project goal, start attracting like-minded community members, then build collective trust together, thus allowing for a larger than normal amount of community funds to be held in trust for a longer period of time while we work out the project details, despite being a leaderless decentralised starfish organisation.

If we've achieved that, then I agree with you 100%. If we haven't (i.e. the 'starfish' is weak despite people supporting our general direction & goals), then the size of the community funds can become a potential point of failure. The size of community funds, and the duration we can safely manage them for is directly proportional to the robustness of the ORA  'starfish'.

The other thing to consider is we *probably* need less community funds now than we originally did anyway. ORA is under the wider NXT & MS umbrella now, so there are multiple synergies in marketing & community support etc, and I feel VERY confident with our future road-map - adding anonymous transactions to NXT via ORA::shuffle' - and we have jl777 & SuperNET community onside to help with things like the tech.

Thinking about all the ORA related issue with DH disappearing, then this chance at *possible* re-birth (which, if successful, would surpass my original expectations for ORA by quite a bit) has changed my focus a lot. I don't want things to linger too long in case we lose momentum, and I think we have all the elements in place now to lock in an exciting roadmap that is independent of any single person.

It feels like ORA is really close to actually being a true decentralised leaderless 'starfish', but we have to act NOW, while we have people engaged & willing to help us get the job done. I definitely don't take people's recent interest & goodwill towards ORA for granted, so I want to 'strike while the iron's hot' and get the roadmap (including distro) settled asap!!
« Last Edit: April 28, 2015, 08:47:23 am by Kora »
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apenzl

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A few things... :)

You can have the first MS coin with intrinsic value, that's cool.

1. Should ORA say yes or no to James' proposal?
If you still think of ORA as a community based coin, how about a vote?

2. Right now I think we're juggling with numbers without looking at what value they represent.

What's the value of the SuperNET silver?
What's the (suggested) value of being added to InstantDEX?
What's the (suggested) value of being the default SuperNET & NXT shuffle-coin?

You need to consider this. You will need to pay some expenses, so what's the value of an ORA?

How much should shufflers get paid?
Want a press release written? Want to send it out? Want an ORA banner hosted somewhere?
Fees for sending redeemed coins to ORA+MIC holders. Is it automated or will someone manually have to send to all x thousand accounts?

Btw, I guess you can be pretty sure that not all ORA + MIC assets will be redeemed.
So in addition to the number of coins in your post above, you will have an amount of Unclaimed Coins.

3. Please don't forget that SuperNET, like Nxt (and even NXTER.ORG), is a decentralized project. Or a starfish, if you like.
It's not a marketing department waiting for you, and when James offers to add silver backing, iDEX integration and possibly off chain shuffling to ORA, it doesn't mean that everything has then been taken care of (afaik). The offer, as I read it, is for ORA to become another leg of the SuperNET starfish, which is why ORA's community is needed indeed.

Now any ORA bagholder could be a sleeping ORA community member or activist, but not necessarily.

So what is the value of an ORA? + an active community (or active foundation).
IMO an ORA Foundation could be a fine thing to have, but it's not the most important issue right now.

4. Should ORA become a shufl-coin only or should it also be used as a currency?
If you still think of ORA as a community based coin (and I think you should), NRS 1.5 brings the voting system.  ;D

How about an ORA /MS wallet? Does it add value?
Should ORA be a tipping coin (Jones planned to use MIC for tips, will he use ORA instead?).
Should ORA /MS be supported on centralized exchanges as well (then give Pi (PICISI) a helping hand, please!).
Should ORA offer a web payment solution (enable ORA payments in wp-shops for example)?
Will ORA work to create a solution that makes payment with ORA /MS coins possible in the DGS/Nxt Marketplace?

How much will the developer(s) get paid? (2)

5. With a coin actually backed by something (silver + useful tech) you have the means to pay for development. Open source the results, and you will have done a lot for the Nxt MS system in general, and thereby for Nxt. I'm pretty sure that if you choose to spend funds on stuff like that, you will grow user base (and support) within the Nxt Community. And still have first mover advantage.

My 2 NXT / ORA

Quote
jl777 PM

So, to make this fair, the community needs to agree to a few things. First we need the plugin to be written that does the synchronized shuffle. Second we need everybody to agree to spend the 1 NXT tx fee at least once per week for at least a year. But probably just monthly at first.

If you can make these things happen, I would be willing to dilute the value of the silver coins, but there needs to be strong and active community based around cooperatively creating these shuffle blocks. It will become the safest way to transact!

If we can get 1000 different nodes all transacting the same block(s), it makes for a very nice anon set indeed

James

Quote
So this is quite a significant thing, but it requires community, active and dedicated more than anything else. Once ORA becomes the anonymous oxygen for crypto, we can do transactions via osmosis

James

Kora

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A few things... :)

You can have the first MS coin with intrinsic value, that's cool.

1. Should ORA say yes or no to James' proposal?
If you still think of ORA as a community based coin, how about a vote?

2. Right now I think we're juggling with numbers without looking at what value they represent.

What's the value of the SuperNET silver?
What's the (suggested) value of being added to InstantDEX?
What's the (suggested) value of being the default SuperNET & NXT shuffle-coin?

You need to consider this. You will need to pay some expenses, so what's the value of an ORA?

How much should shufflers get paid?
Want a press release written? Want to send it out? Want an ORA banner hosted somewhere?
Fees for sending redeemed coins to ORA+MIC holders. Is it automated or will someone manually have to send to all x thousand accounts?

Btw, I guess you can be pretty sure that not all ORA + MIC assets will be redeemed.
So in addition to the number of coins in your post above, you will have an amount of Unclaimed Coins.

3. Please don't forget that SuperNET, like Nxt (and even NXTER.ORG), is a decentralized project. Or a starfish, if you like.
It's not a marketing department waiting for you, and when James offers to add silver backing, iDEX integration and possibly off chain shuffling to ORA, it doesn't mean that everything has then been taken care of (afaik). The offer, as I read it, is for ORA to become another leg of the SuperNET starfish, which is why ORA's community is needed indeed.

Now any ORA bagholder could be a sleeping ORA community member or activist, but not necessarily.

So what is the value of an ORA? + an active community (or active foundation).
IMO an ORA Foundation could be a fine thing to have, but it's not the most important issue right now.

4. Should ORA become a shufl-coin only or should it also be used as a currency?
If you still think of ORA as a community based coin (and I think you should), NRS 1.5 brings the voting system.  ;D

How about an ORA /MS wallet? Does it add value?
Should ORA be a tipping coin (Jones planned to use MIC for tips, will he use ORA instead?).
Should ORA /MS be supported on centralized exchanges as well (then give Pi (PICISI) a helping hand, please!).
Should ORA offer a web payment solution (enable ORA payments in wp-shops for example)?
Will ORA work to create a solution that makes payment with ORA /MS coins possible in the DGS/Nxt Marketplace?

How much will the developer(s) get paid? (2)

5. With a coin actually backed by something (silver + useful tech) you have the means to pay for development. Open source the results, and you will have done a lot for the Nxt MS system in general, and thereby for Nxt. I'm pretty sure that if you choose to spend funds on stuff like that, you will grow user base (and support) within the Nxt Community. And still have first mover advantage.

My 2 NXT / ORA

Quote
jl777 PM

So, to make this fair, the community needs to agree to a few things. First we need the plugin to be written that does the synchronized shuffle. Second we need everybody to agree to spend the 1 NXT tx fee at least once per week for at least a year. But probably just monthly at first.

If you can make these things happen, I would be willing to dilute the value of the silver coins, but there needs to be strong and active community based around cooperatively creating these shuffle blocks. It will become the safest way to transact!

If we can get 1000 different nodes all transacting the same block(s), it makes for a very nice anon set indeed

James

Quote
So this is quite a significant thing, but it requires community, active and dedicated more than anything else. Once ORA becomes the anonymous oxygen for crypto, we can do transactions via osmosis

James

Hey apenzl, thanks for your feedback!!! A lot of great points you made, much food for thought :)

I think we probably agree on many things, and the quotes of jl777's you highlighted get to the heart of the matter - If 'ORA::Shuffling' idea is going to work, and ORA does indeed become the communities default shuffle coin, then what we need most now is an active community.

Let me throw up a few thought bubbles, anaologies, and assumptions I have, so you know where I'm coming from.

I believe the basic idea of making ORA as the default shuffle MS coin *probably* has widespread, but mild, support. By that I mean those following things have realised ORA isn't a scam or a joke, but we haven't managed to 'excite' people (so far) into mass action and support either, at least after the webapp distribution anyay (who doesn't like a freeby - but with freebies nobody has any skin in the game). ORA doesn't have much 'X-factor' so far.

Think for example of an issue like organ donation - if you did a survey maybe 80%-90% of people would be in favour, but in most countries with an opt-in policy (i.e. you DON'T donate unless you specifically say YES on your drivers licence) donation rates are usually very low (5%), so the smart policy is an opt-out policy (i.e. you DO donate unless you specifically say NO on your drivers licence). Contrast 'widespread weak support' with modern day terrorist movements that have 'minority extreme support', where just a few 'extremely motivated' individuals can 'act' in ways that make the whole world take notice and 'react' in the way they want. In many ways a small number of extremely motivated individuals can achieve their aims better than a huge majority of mildly supportive people who offer passive support.

So I think ORA so far is like organ donation, and most NXTers *probably* support us, but at this stage only mildly, and like with organ donation, people aren't about to 'man the barricades' and cause civil unrest to support us, so what we have right now is (hopefully) a small group who will get active in some supportive way, and then dominoes might start falling, and ORA *might* get widespread moderate support, then high support. We do need an X-factor though, but I think that is possible now withe the shuffle/anon possibilities.

My second thought is decentralised organisations and decison making are a bit like free speech - if you really believe in the ideal you have to accept that things will happen in ways you don't always like, or agree with, but you have to support the 'outcome' if you support the 'process'. Just like if you support free speech you HAVE to support the rights of people to say crazy nasty things (within limits) if they want to. I DO believe that for the crypto movement to thrive it MUST stay decentralised as much as possible, and that's why I love NXT, because there's no leader, and everybody is free to use the platform as they wish. The most obvious outcome with decentralised leaderless and decison making is the 'hurding cats' problem sometimes - round and round in circles with no clear path forward. It's frustrating and painfull, but that's the price we pay for freedom, and avoiding the problems with a centralised leadership structure. We can vote, and we should, but from experience it might take a long time to even decide the issues and options.

So for decentralised decision making 'small is beautiful' to make hurding the cats a little easier, and with 'wide but weak' support, ORA probably has only a small number of active participants anyway, so maybe things are well balanced!!

Now, with ORA I am trying to remove myself from the centre of things asap (I'm really past my used-by-date and in many ways I'm a hindrance now), but I can see the end in sight for my roll as ORA mid-wife during this initial birthing process, and my goal is to recede into the background asap once ORA is sufficiently stable to not require a chief advocate anymore to ensure some form of ongoing survival. So I can honestly say that I personally support the process of decentralised leadership, and I have no set idea about what I want to happen now. I'm on the 'journey' and less interested in the destination now, although I know that is probably the most important aspect of ORA for nearly everyone else (i.e. what ORA does is key to success).

For me, as long as ORA contributes something positive to the crypto movement I'm good! I've made some money in crypto, so ORA is about making a contribution in some way, and I've chosen to try to be a facilitator for other people who have ideas & skills far better than my own. I've honestly got no expectations on what ORA should end up being now, other than decentralised & useful, and I think that's definitely on offer since Jack Needles suggested the default shuffle MS coin concept.

My next thought bubble would be to highlight the 'chicken & egg' problem inherent in many small projects. People generally have the opinion, "I can committ to this if it's going good, but if it's not, then I can't". Nearly every garage band I've ever played in got to this discussion topic eventually, and it's very rational for people to think this way if they want to allocate their scarce resources like time wisely. Most garage band musicians would say "if this band sounds good, I'll committ more time to rehearsing, but if we still sound crap, then No, it's just a bit of fun and I can't take it too seriously".

Obviously there's a catch-22 here - if you don't committ you wont progress, and if don't progress you wont committ - so your stuck, unless you get a 'lucky break' that short circuits the catch-22 some how.

IMO ORA has been stuck in a catch-22 for a while now because we started from scratch with nothing much to offer anyone (just a general idea & a distribution). My plan was to get the ball rolling with a couple of 2 bitcoin dev bounties (worked with Mac Red, but failed miserably with our original dev nio), but now after nearly a year all we have is our collective reputations, which are probably pretty reasonable, and a partial distribution that doesn't 'smell' too bad compared to many other PoS coins.That's not much to entice people to committ scarce life resources like time and enthusiasm to, but low & behold ... we got a 'lucky break' with Pilot offering to take over in some way from DH, the 'ORA::shuffle idea' of Jack Needles & jl777's tentative, but genuine offer of support, that as you highlighted, comes with the condition jl777 put on his involvement, 'there needs to be strong and active community'

So, if I put all my thoughts together into what I think we should do now I'd say we need to put up a few specific options at either end of the choice spectrum we have before us, and then try and test support for that with some form of consensus finding like a vote or poll. I think we have limited time to get the road map sorted before 'midnight strikes' and everyone's motivation, enthusiasm & goodwill turns into a pumpkin. I say that not because I am against community input now (I would love it), but my spidey senses tell me those offering to help (e.g. like Pilot as a community treasurer, and jl777 with tech etc) would prefer to get the distribution of remaining ORA sorted asap, so we can proceed with the redemption and everyone knows whether "ORA::shuffle"  looks like it's worth investing more resources in or not.

I think we have general community support, but it's quite weak (more like organ donation than jihad), and ORA is competing with many other worthwhile NXT related projects for support. The catch-22 I mentioned above will stalk ORA for a while to come (i.e. if we naval gaze too much longer people will move on to to ther projects), so while ORA is a community project, and we are always open to everyones ideas, we do have a small time window here. I say this with some sadness now, but I honestly think we need a top down consultation process from here rather than a bottom up, so those currently engaged have the opportunity if they wish to help come up with 2-3 basic options, and then we vote on that asap.

The key points is this IMO:
how many people will committ to ORA with sufficient 'gusto' for long enough to keep a large amount of community funds safe for a period of 1-3 years (i.e. community treasuers)? How many will still follow what's happening closely enought to make good decisions along the way?

Assume I'm working in the background soonish too.

With DH on board I felt he was commited for the long haul, and was actually going to enjoy his roll as community treasurer and community fund bounty organiser, and for a community project that's super important to me that people enjoy their 'work'! With everyone else I honestly don't know. Once people feel the burden of long term responsibilities, which we ALL do at times, then we'll have problems. I don't want or expect people to committ to ongoing responsibilities if it is a burden, not for one second!

Like I said above, I'm about the 'journey' and if ORA lives on in any capacity in the future and contributes anything positive at all (even if only as a good looking corpse) then that's a home run for me!! I thought ORA was dead after DH went missing so this is all a bonus for me personally.

So, if we have enough people committed for an extened period of time, then I think we can keep a large amount of ORA in the community funds, and then ORA exists as an independent project in 'partnership' with NXT community & SuperNET, but with a separate identity.

On the other hand, if what's on offer (and still VERY VERY much appreciated) is a small group of people who can committ time and energy for a short time period to help complete the distribution and plan a roadmap (i.e including plugin dev bounty, other key expenses, shuffle rewards etc), but ongoing involvement is not guaranteed, then we simply can't keep large amounts in community funds for a long time, simple as that. The great thing with the 'ORA::shuffle' idea with jl777 involvement though, is I still think the "short & sweet" option is viable now, especially if we define the roadmap & distro as precisely as possible, and we delegate tasks (and rewards) to people who can committ to completing what they take on.

So, is team ORA like a 'standing army' that exists into the future on a semi-permanent basis, or are we more like a 'citizen militia' that comes together only when needed for a specific 'battle', then we disband into civilian life asap, but stay 'aware' enough in case we need to reform in some capacity at a later date. The founding fathers of America debated this question, and it's similar to what we have to decide now. Obviously a 'standing army' is more powerful, but also more prone to problems too. A 'citizen militia' is smaller and less powerful, but the chance of tyranny and future corruption/abuse is not an issue. The issue for ORA & community funds is a bit similar - community funds let us do more, but there is danger too. I think community support for ORA could grow if things progress well in the next little while, but we can't take anyones ongoing involvement for granted, but maybe we can arrange things in a way that doesn't require that now anyway.

If people are willing to committ to ORA into the future, that wold be GREAT, but I don't expect it, and I still think ORA has a chance without doing so. If we go with something more like a temporary 'citizen militia' we need to setup a roadmap that ends with 100% of ORA distributed and accounted for, and then some agreement on who will do what as we progress. ORA would be almost like a DAC or DAO and I think people from the NXT community could pull that off. I don't think other crypto communities could, but here ... yes, it's possible!!

The main thing we would need to do is:
1- finish distro items & percentages, and who is delegated to keep what amounts for what tasks
2- temporary community treasurers create new MS and recreate balances, complete MIC & ORA asset redemption & distribute to key people
2- shuffling rewards amount sent to a trusted person (could be SuperNET, maybe NXT person with good reputation)
3- organise shuffle plugin tech & dev
4- organise NXTER.org promo campaign

etc etc

In effect we delegate to people the necessary ORA for specific tasks NOW so we end up having no community funds (or a small amount like 1-2%), with no leader, just the well thought out and agreed upon roadmap. ORA becomes a DAC - 'the DAO of ORA' - that *could* have the X-factor we've been missing!

Now, I can happily live with either of those two basic flavours of ORA, and I realise I can not decide which one will prevail, or indeed if either happens at all. That is the price we pay if we want true decentralised deceison making, and I DO want that. But whatever happens, we need to keep pushing this along while we have a chance to do something useful with ORA period. We got our 'circuit breaker' to break free of the catch-22 (Pilot offers to be treasuer, Jack Needles suggesting shuffle, jl777 offering tech help & support), but the circuit will close soon enough if we don't make progress soon.

I think more people are 'watching' ORA now than before, but in order to convert them into active participants we need a road-map that looks achievable, and I'm confident those engaged now can do that! I feel goodwill is with ORA.

Does any of that make sense? Too long and too many words, but that is my response to your excellent thought provoking post apenzl :)
« Last Edit: April 30, 2015, 04:36:36 am by Kora »
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apenzl

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One love, Kora :)

and yes, ALWAYS listen to your spider sense! 8)

Quote
The great thing with the 'ORA::shuffle' idea with jl777 involvement though, is I still think the "short & sweet" option is viable now, especially if we define the roadmap & distro as precisely as possible, and we delegate tasks (and rewards) to people who can committ to completing what they take on.
+1

Quote
how many people will committ to ORA with sufficient 'gusto' for long enough to keep a large amount of community funds safe for a period of 1-3 years (i.e. community treasuers)? How many will still follow what's happening closely enought to make good decisions along the way?
Impossible to say.

Quote
I think community support for ORA could grow if things progress well in the next little while, but we can't take anyones ongoing involvement for granted, but maybe we can arrange things in a way that doesn't require that now anyway.
Yes.

Everything is fine by me.

So just a thought…. Keep an amount of ORA with a treasurer; A bounty fund. The fund will distribute x ORA monthly or quarterly to the ppl who have actively supported ORA in that month/Q. Do you think this could motivate the militia + a standing army? Add a half year bonus for long term commitment, and maybe one for best contribution to ORA during the set timeframe.

Rewards are given according to the value of ppl's contributions / code / time spent. Who decides the amount? As an example, with nxter.org we made this document: http://nxter.org/get-published-get-paid-nxtp/. Our editor writes the accts and numbers into a public googlesheet (as he's directly involved with the contributed content anyways), and then the treasurer pays out to all once a month.   

You/*someone* could contact all ORA + MIC assetholders (in AM), announce Ora + MIC redemption address and conversion rules (soon and how-to) AND link to a questionnaire. Simply ask for interest, ask if and what ppl want/can contribute with. How many has the *intention* of helping ORA::shuffle grow/work, does someone with management skills want to take the first turn, how much time can they spend, what skills do they have, what do they expect to get in return. 

I'm aware that this takes time. :)
Also, I'm aware that interest is not always followed up with action. And yup, decentralization is also = hoarding cats. ;)

I respect what you've already done, and I understand that (and why) you want to remove yourself and pass the ORA torch. ORA can be a shuffl-coin only. And in time, a DAC. Automate payments to shufflers. Maybe ppl wouldn't even like to pay for stuff on a website with this coin, because it has a shuffle feature. Black helicopters could suddenly appear in the sky above them.

Whether ORA ends up as a feature or a currency, or both, it's gonna be exciting. I look forward to your decision and effort, will keep following.

Kora

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So just a thought…. Keep an amount of ORA with a treasurer; A bounty fund. The fund will distribute x ORA monthly or quarterly to the ppl who have actively supported ORA in that month/Q. Do you think this could motivate the militia + a standing army? Add a half year bonus for long term commitment, and maybe one for best contribution to ORA during the set timeframe.

Rewards are given according to the value of ppl's contributions / code / time spent. Who decides the amount? As an example, with nxter.org we made this document: http://nxter.org/get-published-get-paid-nxtp/. Our editor writes the accts and numbers into a public googlesheet (as he's directly involved with the contributed content anyways), and then the treasurer pays out to all once a month.   


Thanks apenzl, more great ideas! I like your suggestions on how to organise & manage bounties, that's something I expected DH would cover, so input there is very useful for me!


I'm going to put a provisional 'roadmap' out for comment.  Everyone should feel free to pick it to pieces and offers of revised roadmaps will be warmly welcomed! I'm making assumptions about people 'volunteering' their services for certain tasks just to push things along. If people aren't able to committ that's fine, that's part of the exercise I guess (finding out who's up for what!).

It's imperative we end up with a plan (including compensation for tasks completed) with the widest support possible. Try and include any suggestions as part of a complete roadmap if possible. By that I mean if you don't like some aspect of my suggested 'roadmap' it's more than cool to pick it apart, but try and offer a 'complete' plan in its place. We need to get down to 'brass tacks' asap to keep the momentum going.

Ideally we're after a plan that's almost like a storyboard for a film, so it should (hopefully) describe in broad terms what's going to happen so everyone knows where they stand before we start . It obviously can't include every detail as we don't know the future but I think we need something that covers the immediate future, and ends up with ORA being 100% decentralised.

If we can nail down a roadmap soonish and get a committment from the main participants, and we generate reasonable community support from average NXTers, then ORA would have a great chance in time of becoming the default anon shuffle coin. ORA would not have been created or designed by any single person, and would not be controlled by any single person either, but it *could* have wide acceptance as the default shuffle coin  adding anonymous capabilities to NXT.

ORA distribution would have included a wide range of techniques, and nobody could really question the legitimacy of the distribution as it's all been very public, and quite organic over nearly 12 months now, and  involved input from a number of different people - free webapp registration with sock countermeasurers, MIC & ReserveShare assimilations, some bounties, SuperNET dividend, 'proof-of-shuffle' plugin rewards, and whatever else apenzl & NXTER.org think of.

ORA would be decentralised, leaderless, widely accepted & useful!

The distro I suggested before was:
10% - jl777 SNcoin swap
10% - SuperNET dividend
5% - Mac Red (Webapp Dev) - Paid
5% - shuffle plugin dev
2% - Kora expense account - Paid
1.0% - Darkhorse - community treasurer
1.0% - Fragora - community treasurer & CryptoFest.tv dev
14.7% - ORA webapp distribution (890 stakeholders X 166,000 =  147,740,000 XOR)
12.5% - MIC assimilation (250,000,000 MIC X 0.5 = 125,000,000 XOR)
16% - Power Bounties & community funds
22.8% - unallocated funds

So we have 38.8% in power bounties & community funds, and unallocated funds.



My Roadmap suggestion is as follows:
1- complete distro numbers
2- determine tasks needed to make ORA a leaderlss DAC/DAO
2- delegate tasks to volunteers  (i.e. 100% decision making power on how best to execute that task rests with the person who volunteered for the task)
3- volunteers execute tasks as best they can
4- everyone tries to stay 'engaged' in the future


I'm suggesting the following distro for the remaining 38.8%:
20.8%  - shuffle rewards (1,000,000 ORA per week for 4 years)
10%     - promotion & further distribution
8%      - long term community funds (ideally 4 individuals with 2% each)


Task list:
Short term Treasurers (Pilot & fragora):
- recreate ORA MS treasury account & MS currency
     - re-create balances from transactions in DH's redemption accounts
     - continue MIC & ORA asset redemptions
     - create new ORA MS currency
     - distribute 100% of ORA MS
         1- to users
         2- to other community members for other purposes (i.e. apenzl/NXTER.org & jl777/SuperNET & long term treasurers)


Promotion & further distro (NXTER.org & apenzl):
delegated task to apenzl & NXTER.org
- Promote 'ORA::shuffle' by distributing ORA in interesting ways (e.g. nxtforum.org giveaway, NXT dev team, CryptoFest etc etc)


Shuffle plugin tech (jl777 & team SuperNET):
delegated task to jl777 & team SuperNET
- recruit & pay shuffle dev
- determine how best to implement shuffle reward payment (including amount) to incentivise shuffling


Long term Community Treasurers: (unknown, looking for volunteers, Pilot & fragora if they want could retain their positions)
delegated task
- receive ORA from short term treasurers
- react to future developments in consultation with other NXT & ORA community members as needed



A few notes:
- unclaimed MIC & ORA should go into shuffle rewards pool
- Kora will pay tx fees for sending redeemed coins to ORA+MIC holders etc
- Kora will use remaining ~10M ORA from his 2% expense account to pay bounties to Pilot, Jack Needles, apenzl, jl777 etc
- DH's 1% share?? if DH doesn't return we share it between long term treasurers, or back into shuffle rewards pool?
- investigate automation for distribution of new MS currency
- who keeps SuperNET silver coins ... jl777 or long term treasuers?
- Mac Red is making a new ORA website - maybe work with apenzl & NXTER.org


« Last Edit: May 01, 2015, 11:23:47 am by Kora »
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fragora

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Great posts Kora and I am on board to help in any way I can, but I think filling the other roles is just a formality and this one is key --
delegated task to jl777 & team SuperNET
- recruit & pay shuffle dev
- determine how best to implement shuffle reward payment (including amount) to incentivise shuffling
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Mac Red

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Those numbers look solid to me.

Like kora mentioned I'm setting up a website to help with the promotion. Nothing fancy, a simple one-page site with room for general information and links. But with a design that IMO fits the new direction we're heading. It's 99.9% done development-wise and is ready to be filled with some actual content. Kora's agreed to help write some text, but anyone's welcome to contribute, just let me know. We'll be able to launch this site whenever we feel it'd be a good time to do so.
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Kora

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Wow, I've had the flu and been flat on my back for 3 days ... nasty!

Great posts Kora and I am on board to help in any way I can, but I think filling the other roles is just a formality and this one is key --
delegated task to jl777 & team SuperNET
- recruit & pay shuffle dev
- determine how best to implement shuffle reward payment (including amount) to incentivise shuffling

Thanks for all your support frag!!

I agree that the key to success for ORA::shuffle will be getting the 'right' dev to design & code the shuffle plugin, and jl777 & team SuperNET are definitely the right people to help with that critical task. Obviously James is up to his eyeballs with InstantDEX testing at the moment (and other projects no doubt also), but if the rest of us can line up all the other 'pins' then I fully expect James will send down a 'strike' with the tech when the time is right. We have plenty of tasks to complete before then, and we still need to build strong community support & engagement before any of us will really know if ORA::Shuffle has a reasonable chance of success.

We don't have any time limits with this project, and ORA & MIC hodlers have already shown they're in for the long haul, so I think ALL ORA shufflers have sufficient patience to wait, watch & observe, and hopefully some will get more involved as we make progress with the roadmap.


Those numbers look solid to me.

Thanks Mac, as the game show hosts like to say, I'm going to lock those numbers in place now. We can revisit them later if need be, but for now lets work on the basis that the 'ORA::Shuffle' roadmap is:

Quote
'ORA::Shuffle' - semi-official provisional RoadMap
The distro:
10% - jl777 SNcoin swap
10% - SuperNET dividend
5% - Mac Red (Webapp Dev) - Paid
5% - shuffle plugin dev
2% - Kora expense account - Paid
1.0% - Darkhorse - community treasurer
1.0% - Fragora - community treasurer & CryptoFest.tv dev
14.7% - ORA webapp distribution (890 stakeholders X 166,000 =  147,740,000 XOR)
12.5% - MIC assimilation (250,000,000 MIC X 0.5 = 125,000,000 XOR)
16% - Power Bounties & community funds
22.8% - unallocated funds

So we have 38.8% in power bounties & community funds, and unallocated funds.



My Roadmap suggestion is as follows:
1- complete distro numbers
2- determine tasks needed to make ORA a leaderlss DAC/DAO
2- delegate tasks to volunteers  (i.e. 100% decision making power on how best to execute that task rests with the person who volunteered for the task)
3- volunteers execute tasks as best they can
4- everyone tries to stay 'engaged' in the future


I'm suggesting the following distro for the remaining 38.8%:
20.8%  - shuffle rewards (1,000,000 ORA per week for 4 years)
10%     - promotion & further distribution
8%      - long term community funds (ideally 4 individuals with 2% each)


Task list:
Short term Treasurers (Pilot & fragora):
- recreate ORA MS treasury account & MS currency
     - re-create balances from transactions in DH's redemption accounts
     - continue MIC & ORA asset redemptions
     - create new ORA MS currency
     - distribute 100% of ORA MS
         1- to users
         2- to other community members for other purposes (i.e. apenzl/NXTER.org & jl777/SuperNET & long term treasurers)


Promotion & further distro (NXTER.org & apenzl):
delegated task to apenzl & NXTER.org
- Promote 'ORA::shuffle' by distributing ORA in interesting ways (e.g. nxtforum.org giveaway, NXT dev team, CryptoFest etc etc)


Shuffle plugin tech (jl777 & team SuperNET):
delegated task to jl777 & team SuperNET
- recruit & pay shuffle dev
- determine how best to implement shuffle reward payment (including amount) to incentivise shuffling


Long term Community Treasurers: (unknown, looking for volunteers, Pilot & fragora if they want could retain their positions)
delegated task
- receive ORA from short term treasurers
- react to future developments in consultation with other NXT & ORA community members as needed



A few notes:
- unclaimed MIC & ORA should go into shuffle rewards pool
- Kora will pay tx fees for sending redeemed coins to ORA+MIC holders etc
- Kora will use remaining ~10M ORA from his 2% expense account to pay bounties to Pilot, Jack Needles, apenzl, jl777 etc
- DH's 1% share?? if DH doesn't return we share it between long term treasurers, or back into shuffle rewards pool?
- investigate automation for distribution of new MS currency
- who keeps SuperNET silver coins ... jl777 or long term treasuers?
- Mac Red is making a new ORA website - maybe work with apenzl & NXTER.org


Like kora mentioned I'm setting up a website to help with the promotion. Nothing fancy, a simple one-page site with room for general information and links. But with a design that IMO fits the new direction we're heading. It's 99.9% done development-wise and is ready to be filled with some actual content. Kora's agreed to help write some text, but anyone's welcome to contribute, just let me know. We'll be able to launch this site whenever we feel it'd be a good time to do so.

Good work Mac! I'll try and make a start on some basic text for the orashuffle.com website. As Mac said, everyone is more than welcome to contribute text and ideas for the new website.



I'm also going to point out that ORA starfish will turn 'one' on 22nd May 2015 (one year from my original bitcointalk.org forum announcement post). We've come a long way since then, and I'm personally very grateful to all those who have helped along the way and shown interest & support. I'm going to suggest that we set that date - 22nd May 2015 - as our cut-off date for Darkhorse to return, so unless we hear from DH before then I suggest we create the new 'ORA::shuffle' MS currency on that date and proceed with the first task, assuming Pilot & fragora are still willing to act as short-term community treasurers.

Quote
Short term Treasurers (Pilot & fragora):
- recreate ORA MS treasury account & MS currency
     - re-create balances from transactions in DH's redemption accounts
     - continue MIC & ORA asset redemptions
     - create new ORA MS currency
     - distribute 100% of ORA MS
         1- to users
         2- to other community members for other purposes (i.e. apenzl/NXTER.org & jl777/SuperNET & long term treasurers)
« Last Edit: May 07, 2015, 03:41:59 am by Kora »
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Kora

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So it's getting close to the deadline we set for Darkhorse to return (ORA's first birthday on 22 May), so we should start firming up our game plan. The first task on the roadmap is:

Quote
Short term Treasurers (Pilot & fragora):
- recreate ORA MS treasury account & MS currency
     - re-create balances from transactions in DH's redemption accounts
     - continue MIC & ORA asset redemptions
     - create new ORA MS currency
     - distribute 100% of ORA MS
         1- to users
         2- to other community members for other purposes (i.e. apenzl/NXTER.org & jl777/SuperNET & long term treasurers)

so, if Pilot & frag are still 'go' for 'ORA::shuffle' MS launch, then .... over to Pilot & frag to flick the ignition switch! I will cover the costs of all tx fees etc.

It does appear that DH is unlikely to come back, and that means we can't use the 'XOR' primo 3 character MS name he registered on the projects behalf. I do feel the loss of the 25K NXT listing fee, but honestly, the loss of the 'XOR' name hurts more. It was a cool name for 'ORA::shuffle', but it's locked up in an account we can't access! Frustration!!!

Anyway, time to move on. Hopefully DH is alright, and I bare him no ill feeling at all. DH was/is a good guy, and I'm 100% convinced his going missing couldn't be helped on his part!


One thing I would like to open up for further discussion is 'NXTignite', a new service being offered by NXTinspect.
https://nxtforum.org/asset-exchange-general/nxtignite-a-nxtinspect-(nxti)-mentorship-program/msg179192/#msg179192

Could 'ORA::shuffle' benefit from using the services of NXTignite? We have a good roadmap, but lets be honest, the ORA starfish is still quite weak, and with DH gone we have lost a permanent long-term community treasurer who was genuinley enthused for a long term commitment as the main guy co-ordinating the funds. My suggestion assumes Pilot & frag are stepping up for a 'short & sweet' burst of energy only, and aren't committing to ORA treasurer duties in an ongoing capacity into the future. If they are keen to stay on as long term treasurers, well that would be more than cool, but if they're not (i.e they're just volunteering to get the first task completed as outlined above), then maybe NXTignite could help. The escrow service looks viable as a possible long term community treasury of sorts.

I'll let Pilot & frag speak for themselves, and whatever they decide is more than cool with me, and I'm truly grateful for any help anyone can offer ORA, especially as we're a community project. I just wanted to put the NXTignite idea out there for further discussion.

NXTignite would give the ORA starfish a little more 'backbone', and exploring the option can't hurt.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2015, 06:32:08 am by Kora »
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fragora

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Sry for the late reply. I have been real busy. As regards acting as treasurer, I can full fill the role of joint signatory as was the arrangement previously with Darkhorse. I could also help with distribution after Pilot sets up the MS currency. Is Pilot still on board ?
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Mac Red

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Anyone wants to step up alongside frag?
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Kora

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Hey guys, just to keep moving the process along I'm going to propose that I create the new 'ORA::shuffle' MS currency asap (i.e. today if possible), then I'll transfer 100% of the coins to the community treasurers. That'll save me sending the listing fee to one of the other guys, and we need some sort of catalyst to push things along, and actually creating the 'ORA::shuffle' MS might do the trick!

What settings do we need to make the shuffle tech work?

Quote
EXCHANGEABLE - the currency can be exchanged with NXT. Holders of the currency can publish an exchange offer specifying the buy and sell rate of the currency much the same as banks or currency exchanges publish their exchange rates . Each account can publish only a single exchange offer at any given time. Exchange offers has an expiry block after which they are no longer in effect. Buyers and sellers can issue exchange requests to match published exchange offers. Unlike asset bid/ask orders, exchange requests are not saved, they are either executed immediately (fully or partially) or not executed at all. A match of exchange offer with a buy or sell exchange request creates an exchange entity which represents the transfer of currency units in return to NXT balance and causes the relevant account balances to update. Issuing an exchange offer reduces the NXT and currency balance of the offering account temporarily until the offer expires. Exchange offers also specifies a limit on the number of exchanged units which can be larger than the number of units offered. When a buy exchange request matches an exchange offer the number of units offered for sell is reduced and the number of units offered for buy is increased as long as the limit has not been reached. Once the exchange limit of an exchange offer has been reached, This exchange offer can no longer be used.

CONTROLLABLE - currency property suitable for currencies which need to track an external entity. It imposes the following limitations on the currency (1) Currency can be transferred only to/from the issuer account (2) only the issuer account can publish exchange offers. The issuer account can issue a large (practically infinite) supply of units in advance, then transfer units to accounts, or offer to exchange units, to reflect actual transactions which take place in an external system. The large supply of units in the issuer account can be used to mimic the effect of creating units out of nowhere to support features such as creating new units and interest payments.

RESERVABLE - currency units are not issued immediately. Instead the currency issuer sets a block height by which the currency is to be issued and a limit of NXT per unit needed in order to issue the currency. Currency "founders" then spend their NXT to reserve their currency stake. If the amount of NXT per unit needed in order to issue the currency is not reserved before reaching the block height the issuance is cancelled and funds are returned minus fees. If the required reserve is allocated, the currency is issued and units are split between founders according to their proportional stake of invested NXT. In case of rounding, leftovers are sent to the issuer account. See below discussion of usage scenarios for Reservable currency.

CLAIMABLE - currency units of resereable currency can later be claimed at the same NXT per unit rate reached when reserving the currency. The ability to claim a currency at a certain rate imposes some practical limits on the rates in which users would want to exchange it. However claimable currency can also be exchanged if only for the purpose of exchanging the whole currency supply, so that the currency can be deleted.

MINTABLE - currency can be minted using proof of work algorithms much the same as Bitcoin. Unlike Bitcoin mining, minting currency does not secure the network (this is done by NXT). Minting is used solely for creating new currency units and serve as the only mechanism to increase the number of available units after the currency issuance.

NON_SHUFFLEABLE - this property indicates that in the future this currency cannot participate in coin shuffling. By default currencies are allowed to participate in shuffling.
Properties are combined into an Integer bit mask designated as the Currency type.


I'm thinking:
- Coin supply: 1,000,000,000
- EXCHANGEABLE:             YES
- CONTROLLABLE:             NO
- RESERVABLE:                 NO
- CLAIMABLE:                   NO
- MINTABLE:                    NO
- NON_SHUFFLEABLE:        NO

If those properties look OK to jl777 and co. as far as the plugin tech is concerned, then I'll create the ORA MS today and transfer all 1 billion coins to the community treasurers asap!!

On a personal note, my change of employment and subsequent move to another city is proving about as time consuming as I'd expected (i.e. I'm going a little bonkers at the moment - selling one house, renting another, looking to buy another asap to avoid dead rent - how long until blockchain tech disrupts real estate industry?).

I think it's time to go to DELCON 1 (maximum delegation readiness condition), and as there's been no objections raised to the proposed roadmap I suggested previously, I'm delegating any residual decision making authority I may have had up until this point to those individuals mentioned in the roadmap. Good luck everyone :)

There's still A LOT of 'space' for people to get involved with 'ORA::shuffle', and I encourage all NXT'ers to support ORA as best they can in the future. ORA has been, and will (hopefully) always be a community based project working towards the noble goal of helping to grow and advance the crypto currency movement in general, and the NXT ecosystem specifically. ORA has been traded on the NXT asset exchange (over 1000 times now!), but has NEVER been sold. I'm proud of that! ORA is still just 'raw potential', but the future is bright :)
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Kora

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Hey guys, just to keep moving the process along I'm going to propose that I create the new 'ORA::shuffle' MS currency asap (i.e. today if possible), then I'll transfer 100% of the coins to the community treasurers. That'll save me sending the listing fee to one of the other guys, and we need some sort of catalyst to push things along, and actually creating the 'ORA::shuffle' MS might do the trick!

OK, I've just created 'XORA' the ORA MS currency!!

http://nxtportal.org/currencies/6933225670038769986

I'll transfer 100% of the XORA coins to the community treasurers once they've setup the new treasury accounts :)
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LocoMB

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Hey guys, just to keep moving the process along I'm going to propose that I create the new 'ORA::shuffle' MS currency asap (i.e. today if possible), then I'll transfer 100% of the coins to the community treasurers. That'll save me sending the listing fee to one of the other guys, and we need some sort of catalyst to push things along, and actually creating the 'ORA::shuffle' MS might do the trick!

OK, I've just created 'XORA' the ORA MS currency!!

http://nxtportal.org/currencies/6933225670038769986

I'll transfer 100% of the XORA coins to the community treasurers once they've setup the new treasury accounts :)

This is really great News! Thank for carrying on with this!
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Mac Red

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Hey guys, just to keep moving the process along I'm going to propose that I create the new 'ORA::shuffle' MS currency asap (i.e. today if possible), then I'll transfer 100% of the coins to the community treasurers. That'll save me sending the listing fee to one of the other guys, and we need some sort of catalyst to push things along, and actually creating the 'ORA::shuffle' MS might do the trick!

OK, I've just created 'XORA' the ORA MS currency!!

I'll transfer 100% of the XORA coins to the community treasurers once they've setup the new treasury accounts :)

Great stuff. 8)
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Nxter

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Hi ORERS.


I would like to step out and volunteer myself to help with the ORA treasury and accounting along fragora and pilot (if they and the community agree).


I spend time everyday in this forum and I think it is time to move from being a simple observer to be an active member of the community. The ORA project is the perfect place to do so.


I am an ORA believer, I am an original stakeholder from the web application and I not only keep the whole stake from the original distribution but I also bought some extra ORA in the AE.
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Kora

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Hi ORERS.


I would like to step out and volunteer myself to help with the ORA treasury and accounting along fragora and pilot (if they and the community agree).


I spend time everyday in this forum and I think it is time to move from being a simple observer to be an active member of the community. The ORA project is the perfect place to do so.


I am an ORA believer, I am an original stakeholder from the web application and I not only keep the whole stake from the original distribution but I also bought some extra ORA in the AE.


Hey Nxter, thanks so much for your post!!! You've made my day week month ... I'm over the MOON :)

I think I speak for ALL ORA'farians in saying the community will gladly accept your offer to join ORA as another community treasuer to help pilot and fragora. It's no exageration to say that your offer to help at this time will be vital to keeping ORA moving forward, and on a personal note I want to let you know how extremely grateful I am that you are willing to help as a community treasurer, and I'm very heartened by your comments in support of our ORA.

Yes, ORA is a good choice for a NXT based project to support! I'm obviously biased, but we do have a pretty solid back-story behind us, and a very promising future ahead, and I'm confident as time progresses we can attract more support from other NXT community members like yourself Nxter! Good people attract other good people!

As I mentioned in a previous post a while back, ORA is at maximum delegation now (DELCON 1), so how things proceed from here should be determined by the community treasurers. I'll still be around to act as 'mid-wife' with the towels & hot water (although a bit distracted since I changed jobs and relocated my family to another city), but the re-birth of ORA as 'XORA' will be in the hands of the community treasurers for the next phase of the roadmap.

Quote
Short term Treasurers (Pilot & fragora & Nxter):
- recreate ORA MS treasury account & MS currency
     - re-create balances from transactions in DH's redemption accounts
     - continue MIC & ORA asset redemptions
     - create new ORA MS currency
     - distribute 100% of ORA MS
         1- to users
         2- to other community members for other purposes (i.e. apenzl/NXTER.org & jl777/SuperNET & long term treasurers)

Decentralisation requires delegation, and delegation works best when people know and understand what their roll is, so they feel empowered to make decisions and act decisively when necessary. I want the community treasurers to enjoy the 'process' (and everyone else involved with later stages of the roadmap too), so you guys have full authority to act as you see fit as far as I'm concerned. Consult widely if you can, communicate what you're doing when needed, and then act based on your own judgement.

I think the vast majority of people involved with NXT have similar opinions on the desirability of distributing 'power' more widely in the world, and the need to preserve individual freedom wherever possible. There are obviously differences around some issues, but most crypto enthusiasts were initially attracted by the potential for decentralised power over money and finances, and a lot more things with blockchain tech too! I think present & future ORA supporters know we maximise our potential to create something strong and useful for NXT by staying as decentralised as possible. Centralised decision making can be extremely powerful for some tasks and processes sometimes, but it comes with many risks too. Effective use of delegation for specific tasks and responsibilities in small groups can tap into the power of centralisation without incurring too many of the costs.

In my mind the centralisation/decentralisation thing is a bit like living in a universe with gravity pulling everything inwards, and dark energy pushing everything outwards. As long as gravity and dark energy are 'balanced' we avoid the big crunch if gravity wins, or the endless cold dark empty void if dark energy wins.

IMO the key to harnessing the usefulness of centralised decision making for a decentralised leaderless 'starfish' like ORA is delegation.

My experiences over the last year with ORA has taught me that too much decentralisation can end up being so 'loose' that everything can spread out so thin that you run the risk of ending up in a 'cold empty void', like what will happen if dark energy continues to push everything outwards in the universe, as seems to be the consensus in science. Many crypto projects suffer from this problem also.

We only have interesting things in the universe, like galaxies and planets and life itself, because gravity is a 'centralising' force, but without dark energy to counter gravity, the fate of the universe would be a big crunch as everything gets contracted into another point of infinite density and force, which is a bit like the vision for society that the 3-letter agencies have at present.

Too much decentralisation can end up creating a 'cold empty void' that sometimes produces nothing though, and for a while ORA might have been heading for that fate, so again, thanks to Nxter for injecting a bit of 'gravity' into the ORA universe to help pull us back together into something 'interesting' :)
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 02:42:53 pm by Kora »
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fragora

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Hi ORERS.


I would like to step out and volunteer myself to help with the ORA treasury and accounting along fragora and pilot (if they and the community agree).


I spend time everyday in this forum and I think it is time to move from being a simple observer to be an active member of the community. The ORA project is the perfect place to do so.


I am an ORA believer, I am an original stakeholder from the web application and I not only keep the whole stake from the original distribution but I also bought some extra ORA in the AE.

Welcome aboard Nxter. I will contact you over the weekend regarding a plan for moving forward and also get in contact with Pilot
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Nxter

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Hi ORERS.


I would like to step out and volunteer myself to help with the ORA treasury and accounting along fragora and pilot (if they and the community agree).


I spend time everyday in this forum and I think it is time to move from being a simple observer to be an active member of the community. The ORA project is the perfect place to do so.


I am an ORA believer, I am an original stakeholder from the web application and I not only keep the whole stake from the original distribution but I also bought some extra ORA in the AE.

Welcome aboard Nxter. I will contact you over the weekend regarding a plan for moving forward and also get in contact with Pilot

Thank you for this nice welcoming Kora and Fragora.
Lets organize us during this weekend.
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