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Author Topic: Pangea Poker - asset 6883271355794806507  (Read 102730 times)

CoinHoarder

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Re: Pangea Poker - asset 6883271355794806507
« Reply #320 on: October 24, 2015, 09:29:09 pm »

I'm interested in what you guys think of my design of a decentralized poker network. No offense, but I think your collusion and multi-accounting protection is not very well thought out. There has been little to no talk of it ITT so excuse me if I am wrong. Any poker game expecting to cater to greater than 2 player games must have some sort of system in place to combat multi-accounting and collusion. I think some collaboration could be nice for us both, as I feel like I have at least a couple genuinely good ideas in my design. I honestly don't care whether a bad ass decentralized poker network gets built on Nxt, SuperNet, or Bitshares, just the fact that it exists will do for me. My design is centered around Bitshares though. Here is the latest version of my design: docdro.id/NZf3LyG
Our thinking is that nothing will be as effective at anti-collusion as the freemarket.

The pangea hosts will offer whatever sort of reputation system, etc that the market wants the most.

Pangea solves the realtime mental poker problem and also will use the blockchain to enforce all the funds, but there is certainly possibility of some sort of reputation system to be used by pangea hosts. However that would be something run on top of the baseline pangea system

James

It will be interesting to see how that works out. It seems you guys will be the first decentralized poker app out on the market, so I wish you guys luck. I think Pokereum is interesting too, but they combine two things a majority people in the poker world generally dislike.... fast fold poker and bots. So, I like your project better. :)

Seems very well thought out in a theoretical and ideal world sense, but doesn't sound very practical from a technical/implementation point of view. I especially can't see the reversible chips idea working.

I got you. I agree the design is very complicated and would take a long time to implement on a technical level. There are a few things that still need to be worked out. I also am not crazy about the reversible chips idea, but it was the best I could come up with.

Well.. hopefully you can get a couple ideas from my paper if that is all. I doubt I will ever build it honestly.. I don't have enough free time and the Bitshares community seems disinterested. Good luck to your project! I am of the opinion that we should decentralized everything! ;D

Cheers
« Last Edit: October 24, 2015, 09:31:12 pm by CoinHoarder »
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yassin54

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Re: Pangea Poker - asset 6883271355794806507
« Reply #321 on: October 24, 2015, 10:13:35 pm »

You are Welcome @CoinHoarder!  :)

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Re: Pangea Poker - asset 6883271355794806507
« Reply #322 on: October 25, 2015, 07:50:29 am »

Appreciate your input. Thanks CoinHoarder  :)
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valarmg

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Re: Pangea Poker - asset 6883271355794806507
« Reply #323 on: October 25, 2015, 08:13:24 am »

I got you. I agree the design is very complicated and would take a long time to implement on a technical level. There are a few things that still need to be worked out. I also am not crazy about the reversible chips idea, but it was the best I could come up with.

Well.. hopefully you can get a couple ideas from my paper if that is all. I doubt I will ever build it honestly.. I don't have enough free time and the Bitshares community seems disinterested. Good luck to your project! I am of the opinion that we should decentralized everything! ;D

Cheers
The paper is very well written and thought out, and from a poker point of view, I find myself agreeing with most of what's in there. I just struggle to see how the main concepts can be implemented.

For Pangea, we are concentrating on getting working decentralized poker working first (that's difficult enough), then afterwards figuring out dealing with bots/collusion. We do have a plan though. Our overall vision is that there will be hosts who bring the players together to play under their banner. The host's job is to bring in players, and to make sure the games are good, and in return the host receives rake. Part of ensuring good games, is that the host verifies that each person is a real person and not a bot. They are then banned for bad behavior. Bots et al. can make some money, but that's the same as centralized sites, and good hosts will make sure it's hard for them to return if banned. It's up to players to watch out for suspicious behavior and report it (similar to how it is presently). The main problem is that each host's community becomes a walled garden, but the idea is that the free market ensures that several large and competent hosts will create viable games.

If you have free time and skills, and aren't going to be working on the bitshares version, maybe you'd like to get involved with helping Pangea.
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NXT ENTERPRISE

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Re: Pangea Poker - asset 6883271355794806507
« Reply #324 on: November 20, 2015, 06:10:43 am »

Is there anything new on this?

I am planning to fund my NXT and then move into assets.

Very hard to see what is alive and what is dead?

Even if seemingly alive - what is on its death march from no activity...

Regards...
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Cassius

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Re: Pangea Poker - asset 6883271355794806507
« Reply #325 on: November 20, 2015, 08:56:57 am »

Is there anything new on this?

I am planning to fund my NXT and then move into assets.

Very hard to see what is alive and what is dead?

Even if seemingly alive - what is on its death march from no activity...

Regards...

Very much alive. James is working on it now I believe.
If you join Slack you will have better access to information about ongoing projects.
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Re: Pangea Poker - asset 6883271355794806507
« Reply #326 on: November 20, 2015, 09:06:50 am »

Is there anything new on this?

I am planning to fund my NXT and then move into assets.

Very hard to see what is alive and what is dead?

Even if seemingly alive - what is on its death march from no activity...

Regards...

Very much alive. James is working on it now I believe.
If you join Slack you will have better access to information about ongoing projects.

Ok great to hear.

I am watching trying to see what assets are going to manifest..

Thanks for the answer
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John Smith

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Re: Pangea Poker - asset 6883271355794806507
« Reply #327 on: November 21, 2015, 04:53:45 pm »

We can certainly move beyond much of this especially since the author other bitshers d poker paper does in fact know what effective rake is:

https://www.docdroid.net/NZf3LyG/distributed-poker-brainstorm-v04.pdf.html

Quote
... authorities out will lower the costs (effective rake) for players.

Effective rake (would like to know where you got the term) is a phrase I have been espousing to the players across as many significant forums as I could.  It might be that or the recent poker stars rake policy changes that has caused the collective consciousness of the players to evolve their understanding of rake % vs effective rake, nonetheless there is much discussion going on about the subject: https://thewealthofchips.wordpress.com/2015/11/07/effective-rake-is-real-now/

Here is some insight on the subject:

https://thewealthofchips.wordpress.com/2014/11/10/definition-effective-rake/
https://thewealthofchips.wordpress.com/2015/07/26/levating-an-effective-rake-standard/
https://thewealthofchips.wordpress.com/2015/07/15/the-difficulties-of-creating-and-maintaining-and-effective-rake-standard/
https://thewealthofchips.wordpress.com/2015/01/21/observations-on-trivial-rake-targeting/
https://thewealthofchips.wordpress.com/2015/01/20/a-global-stable-monetary-unit-the-largest-hidden-factor-of-effective-rake/
https://thewealthofchips.wordpress.com/2015/01/10/the-importance-of-relating-online-poker-to-an-e-currency-network-and-hidden-factor-of-effective-rake/
https://thewealthofchips.wordpress.com/2014/12/06/the-problem-of-measuring-effective-rake/
https://thewealthofchips.wordpress.com/2014/10/29/the-intrinsic-value-of-effective-rake/

Players and industry peoples are starting to understand the definition but not at all quite its purpose for existence.  Not only is our understanding and use of effective rake an effective political tool that helps the average player understand the deceptive policies sites use to profit more from the players, but effective rake as a profitability standard really does solve ALL of the above problems you listed.

We need to think about poker in terms of a profitability standard that could theoretically exist.  In such a game where the "sites" offered such a standard we MUST assume that bots would necessarily arise.  But there is a really important and seemingly simple conjecture here that these bots not over game the economy to a negative roi%.   Such a bot invested environment can be assumed to be of the most difficult poker to play, or in other words no human could ever expect to win in the long run regardless if the bots could play perfect GTO poker or not, yet we still might even expect SOME humans to play (Poker Stars "employs" many such players and has more plans for more such players!).

There can be no real collusion vs bots that are tending towards GTO, nor would I think there would be any public out cry if a human player found some form of software exploits (or hardware or whatever), and one could argue such an evolutionary race might be overall beneficial to mankind.  The profitability then of course is basically and generally given out as rakeback, and could be evenly given out to bots and humans or perhaps not.

Then, depending on how pangea or pokererum or any other d poker project decides to design their project, there arises the possibility that this underlying bot ring could be used as an infrastructure for individual private games, rooms, or sites.

THIS is what we should mean by free market, but this may or may not be applicable to this or other projects.

These private rooms pay rake to the underlying bot ring via directly or through a general rakeback, in exchange for what must be a secure game (otherwise there is no market).  The conjecture here again, and especially depending on the parameters, is that you would need AND have a decentralized node pool, since it could be arranged that the bot pool IS also decentralized (other wise there could be no security for the public bot infested pool).

I do expect both these major conjecture to hold as true as bitcoin's conjecture did.

Then what is dissolved is any need to solve any possible complaints such as collusion, bots, an other profitability or security complaints, because now the onus can be separated from the provider of the network (bots) and the organizer of the game (sites, room, game).

We should understand, and I think your paper did not at all consider this, an effective rake standard allows us to do things we never considered before, especially in relation to a bot pool that will seemingly likely hit gto within 1 year, namely we would be able to QUANTIFY things like bounties for security leaks or for example collusion problems.  If someone is wronged while playing in a private game that person and the organizer can arbitrate a very quantified resolution.  So what we are really doing is restructuring the economy of the game in a way that many of the paradoxical problems disappear.

You for example might decide you want to play on a site that requires bio meterics, I for example think that's insane in this day and age, so I'll play on sites that offer a super low effective rake standard :)

I also think you of all peoples might enjoy this satirical paper: http://fermatslibrary.com/s/ideal-poker-and-asymptotically-ideal-poker
« Last Edit: November 21, 2015, 05:00:44 pm by John Smith »
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John Smith

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Re: Pangea Poker - asset 6883271355794806507
« Reply #328 on: November 21, 2015, 05:58:24 pm »

Any poker game expecting to cater to greater than 2 player games must have some sort of system in place to combat multi-accounting and collusion.
Then we should see this as a false statement in regards to proposing and implementation of p2p poker and dispel this myth across the communities as fast as we can.  Satoshi did NOT solve solve the banking system but rather provide a transferable utility (money!) that does not have a manipulable supply.  In terms of poker we should want to provide the chips and the cards and the transfer of value, but not the sites/banks/casinos themselves.
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ThankYouMaam

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Re: Pangea Poker - asset 6883271355794806507
« Reply #329 on: December 08, 2015, 07:09:19 pm »

Any updates?
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tolstoy

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Re: Pangea Poker - asset 6883271355794806507
« Reply #330 on: December 22, 2015, 12:40:28 am »

Cepheus is the first computer program to play an essentially perfect game of poker.

Cepheus Poker Project
poker.srv.ualberta.ca/

AI poker-master program developed that can never make a mistake or lose to a human
www. electronicproducts.com/Programming/Software/AI_poker_master_program_developed_that_can_never_make_a_mistake_or_lose_to_a_human.aspx
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prometheus

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Re: Pangea Poker - asset 6883271355794806507
« Reply #331 on: December 24, 2015, 01:40:43 am »

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EstefanTT

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Re: Pangea Poker - asset 6883271355794806507
« Reply #332 on: December 27, 2015, 05:58:47 pm »

Is there a better place than this thread to keep in touch with the progress of this project ?

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yassin54

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Re: Pangea Poker - asset 6883271355794806507
« Reply #333 on: December 27, 2015, 06:29:07 pm »

Is there a better place than this thread to keep in touch with the progress of this project ?

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
try slack supernet, you can look updates  ;)
contacted "Noash" for an invitation https://nxtforum.org/index.php?action=profile;u=170

EstefanTT

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Re: Pangea Poker - asset 6883271355794806507
« Reply #334 on: December 27, 2015, 06:38:42 pm »

Thanks

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mallorcaman

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Re: Pangea Poker - asset 6883271355794806507
« Reply #335 on: January 18, 2016, 10:07:00 am »

I hate to do it, but I decided to move after this investment, just dont get a good feeling about it anymore. I will still be watching just in case I do need to jump back in the ship. Good luck all
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Kevinrasf

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Re: Pangea Poker - asset 6883271355794806507
« Reply #336 on: January 18, 2016, 10:38:47 am »

I hate to do it, but I decided to move after this investment, just dont get a good feeling about it anymore. I will still be watching just in case I do need to jump back in the ship. Good luck all

Is this because you feel there are too little updates?

If so I think its better to join the Pangea group and ask, someone will most likely help you out there.
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yassin54

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Re: Pangea Poker - asset 6883271355794806507
« Reply #337 on: January 18, 2016, 04:51:41 pm »

From Slack SuperNet, By jl777

Code: [Select]
the version from a few months ago is for devs, not easy to setup
i will port it to iguana as soon as the networking supports some high level routing API
i am currently debugging the high level routing API, more details in #iguana
« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 04:56:29 pm by yassin54 »
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EstefanTT

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Re: Pangea Poker - asset 6883271355794806507
« Reply #338 on: February 26, 2016, 01:50:00 am »

I checked slack supernet but I couldn't find any updates.

It could give more confidence in the projects for investors if some updates were given in this thread. Something like an weekly quick summary.

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shmoula

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Re: Pangea Poker - asset 6883271355794806507
« Reply #339 on: March 11, 2016, 01:40:33 pm »

+1440

I checked slack supernet but I couldn't find any updates.

It could give more confidence in the projects for investors if some updates were given in this thread. Something like an weekly quick summary.

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