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Author Topic: NXTcoinsco should be called Tradebots asset! - make money making tradebots  (Read 10045 times)

jl777

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Sounds amazing James.  :)
You've seen what I have done since March, so that's just 5 months of coding. Prior to crypto, I had been programming at this pace for 6 years on making realtime tradebots. Crazy as it seems, I wrote close to half a million lines of code, of course most of it ends up not useful for solving the problem. Anyway, I think I am one of few people who will write a million lines of code :)

James

P.S. I am not so much to be hyping up specific assets, I prefer to just release the code. For those who follow this thread, just to know that NXTcoinsco is the basked for SVMcoin, tradebot revenue sharing, etc. Due to lack of posting about what NXTcoinsco will have, it seems to not have much interest. But, this makes for some good pricing for long term hodlers. SVMcoin needs InstantDEX to be working fully, so realistically this is a fall timeframe
« Last Edit: July 27, 2014, 07:02:47 pm by jl777 »
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jl777

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I had an idea to simplify things a bit. With the privacyServers well on their way, I believe that there is a faster way to get revenues for NXTcoinsco asset holders.

In my mind NXTcoinsco was about automated trading and SVMs and at the time it seemed that SVMcoin was needed to create the computational infrastructure. However, with the privacyServer hubs, I believe we can bypass this stage and go directly to revenue creation. So, NXTcoinsco might be the wrong name but I will still get nodecoins out as dividends, but really the revenue potential from tradebots within InstantDEX is quite nice and I like to prioritize based on importance. If any NXTcoinsco asset holders objects to this change, please let me know ASAP.

So, the outline for Tradebot asset (aka NXTcoinsco) is that it will allow tradebot creators to make and test tradebots and then people can subscribe to their tradebot and pay a percentage of profits that they make. So this creates the ability for people who are good at making tradebots to make an income and also for people who are not able to make them to still take advantage of them.

All of this can create enormous InstantDEX volumes and I negotiated a deal with the guy that runs InstantDEX for revenue sharing to Tradebot (NXTcoinsco) asset holders. There was that unallocated 30% of the InstantDEX operating budget and now it has a home. The profit sharing of the tradebot creators is a separate thing. They would set their own price and mechanisms will be put in place for the tracking and disbursing of profits, but this is separate from the InstantDEX revenue sharing.

Hope its not too complicated. Basically NXTcoinsco (Tradebot asset) will get 30% of InstantDEX operating budget (or 15% of fees) and since there is very low overheads, most of this will become dividends

OK, so I am creating a tradebot language and it will be in the form of a JSON string. This allows for flexibility to change versions, add commands, etc. More details as I get version 0 implemented today.

James
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Tosch110

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Yes. please add the InstantDex revenue to nxtcoinsco :D

Will nxtcoinsco still receive 10% of the coins that are made with the nxtcoinsco network?

jl777

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Yes. please add the InstantDex revenue to nxtcoinsco :D

Will nxtcoinsco still receive 10% of the coins that are made with the nxtcoinsco network?
yes, but now maybe no SVMcoin
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Tosch110

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Yes. please add the InstantDex revenue to nxtcoinsco :D

Will nxtcoinsco still receive 10% of the coins that are made with the nxtcoinsco network?
yes, but now maybe no SVMcoin

Do I understand it correct if I say you planned to create a SVMcoin for InstantDEX. No you realize you do not need it. Therefore SVMcoin will not be created and logically it cannot be distributed.

Or is SVMcoin already created but used for InstantDex therefore sharing revenue for InstantDex is the new way instead of distributing SVMcoin?

jl777

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Yes. please add the InstantDex revenue to nxtcoinsco :D

Will nxtcoinsco still receive 10% of the coins that are made with the nxtcoinsco network?
yes, but now maybe no SVMcoin

Do I understand it correct if I say you planned to create a SVMcoin for InstantDEX. No you realize you do not need it. Therefore SVMcoin will not be created and logically it cannot be distributed.

Or is SVMcoin already created but used for InstantDex therefore sharing revenue for InstantDex is the new way instead of distributing SVMcoin?
I planned to create SVMcoin for NXTcoinsco and it was to be a client of InstantDEX. The point for SVMcoin was to have mining CPU power to calculate SVMs, but with privacyServers, that mining power is already forming, so this accelerates the timeframe for SVM related revenues.

The SVMs will be used to create enhanced tradebots and this will create revenues from profit sharing with people that subscribe to the enhanced tradebot.
Before it would have been another coin which added another level of indirection. Now, much more direct. Tradebots asset makes tradebots and tools to make enhanced tradebots. People create said bots and make money by profit sharing with their customers and of course Tradebots asset gets a piece of this profit sharing too.

InstantDEX benefits by having a bunch of bots making a bunch of trades.
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Tosch110

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Sounds awesome. Need more nxtcoinsco :D

jl777

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Sounds awesome. Need more nxtcoinsco :D
No hurry, it will take time to create the tradebot creation stuff and until then it will only be the InstantDEX revenue sharing

If you have any requests for the type of things you want your tradebot to be able to do, please let me know.
I am doing this incrementally, so at first it will just have a target price and a few indicators to use as confirmation/prevention

This solves the InstantDEX problem of not having the trades automatically matched. Each one is negotiated peer to peer and it is just not practical for users to have to respond manually, so this accelerated the need for tradebots by a few months

James
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jl777

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OK, I couldnt resist, I coded the dynamic library loading and even though I dont know how to make them properly if there is a dynamic library with the entry points:

"langname", "compiler", "runtime"

I will add it to the list of available languages. The MGW.conf (too lazy to rename the file for all the different possibilities) file will then look for a field called "tradebot_languages" and if it is an array of filenames, each will attempt to be loaded.

So, the code is there, if anybody can make a dynamic library with these entry points, I could test it

langname is a char * to the name of the language
int32_t (*compiler_func)(void **compiledptr,char *retjsonstr,cJSON *codejson);
int32_t (*runtime_func)(void *compiled,struct tradebot_state *state);

the compiler function does whatever it needs to with codejson and allocates memory for the compiled data and puts that in *compiledptr. status is putinto retjsonstr. Note that the codejson can be encrypted blob of hexbytes, or even C code, though not sure how to deal with embedded quotes. sometimes the simplest things make for most problems

The runtime function will be called with the compiledptr that was saved earlier along with the current tradebot state. The runtime function will be called until it returns nonzero status, negative indicating error, positive indication completion

Each language can have a memory limited number of tradebots all active. I decided to let each tradebot determine if it needs any data during runtime, as otherwise I need a way to generically specify all the possible data needs ahead of time.

James
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sparta_cuss

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Now that InstantDEX is entering the home stretch, NXTcoinsco and SVMcoin details can be understood.

I want to make it so people can say: "buy 1 BTC worth of NXT at an average price of .000075, but no higher than .000076"
This sounds not so impressive, but I also want to be able to qualify such orders with: "only buy when the slope is positive", or basically any state represented by the colored lines.

This way, when InstantDEX is connecting two people, the tradebot can determine if it is able to trade at that moment.

Now knowing exactly when to trade or not is very difficult thing, but there are people that specialize in making these things. I am creating a framework for people to create very advanced tradebots using SVM tech. Other people can then subscribe to these custom created tradebots. So in a few months it will be possible for people to use highly sophisticated signals. I will make it so that a fee is paid only if it a profitable trade, this way people dont waste money on bots that dont work and the people that do make bots that work will get good income

James

I like where this project is going. Can you explain how this will work. Will you do a real-time assessment of all bot activity? Or is there an algorithm in the SVM - which, I imagine, is the template for all bots - that will assess the profitability of each trade?
nxt: NXT-Z24T-YU6D-688W-EARDT
btc/xcp: 19ULeXarogu2rT4dhJN9vhztaorqDC3U7s

jl777

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Now that InstantDEX is entering the home stretch, NXTcoinsco and SVMcoin details can be understood.

I want to make it so people can say: "buy 1 BTC worth of NXT at an average price of .000075, but no higher than .000076"
This sounds not so impressive, but I also want to be able to qualify such orders with: "only buy when the slope is positive", or basically any state represented by the colored lines.

This way, when InstantDEX is connecting two people, the tradebot can determine if it is able to trade at that moment.

Now knowing exactly when to trade or not is very difficult thing, but there are people that specialize in making these things. I am creating a framework for people to create very advanced tradebots using SVM tech. Other people can then subscribe to these custom created tradebots. So in a few months it will be possible for people to use highly sophisticated signals. I will make it so that a fee is paid only if it a profitable trade, this way people dont waste money on bots that dont work and the people that do make bots that work will get good income

James

I like where this project is going. Can you explain how this will work. Will you do a real-time assessment of all bot activity? Or is there an algorithm in the SVM - which, I imagine, is the template for all bots - that will assess the profitability of each trade?
It wont need to be realitime, no need to create such load on network.
The bots that are involved in trades would log this and then on regular interval the profitability of trades will be made. Now, it is easiest if a trade is open and closed, but if it is still open, some issues on calculating profits.
Clearly, we cant be commingling more than one tradebot for a profit sharing account, so it will have to be like PAMM accts, where the bot makes buy/sell decisions and subscriber's accounts do the same. Then subject to drawdown safety margin, reasonable time intervals, etc. a profit calculation can be made

This is a totally independent accounting function. Maybe I can have shortNXT do it :)
I am not so worried about this part, it is just to count the actual money made with actual trades made

I am writing the tradebot language today and so far I have it so that you can have your own language and within each language an arbitrary number of tradebots, each with a botname, botid and signals (each signal with its name and size) and other bots can use outputs of a tradebot as an input. This allows for modular construction of fancy signals and control flow bots.

If you search "SVM predictors" in google, you will see many references to mostly math heavy info. They basically take as input massive (I mean really a lot) amounts of data and from this they create a predictor that can be calculated very quickly (just a dotproduct) once you have all the features. This is pretty tricky, so I will have to create a template system for people to experiment with to generate a blackbox SVM predictor with hopefully good properties.

It will be quite possible to make tradebots without any SVM, but in my experience without something with heavy duty dataset embodied in something like an SVM, you usually curvefit your solution to test data and it doesnt do so well with realtime datafeed

James
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jl777

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Starting to get a bit complicated. Had to think through the order of bots being called.
So during compile time of the tradebots, if it needs other bot's outputs as an input, then it needs to wait to process tradebot events until after the one it depends on is done. Otherwise, best case is wasted CPU reprocessing, worst case is totally wrong result or at least delayed result.

So, had to implement a dynamic dependency tracking, a bit nervous my algo isnt quite right, so I put in a brute force debug check to make sure it did call each bot once and only once per event.

It is also very handy to have a regular context, eg. making a summary for the just finished minute, so I also put in a one minute timer that goes off after all other processing is done.

With all this linking of outputs to inputs becoming possible, a lot of the processing will be automatically done just by the tradebot topology. Pretty cool! each bot can now be a single purpose bot that does just one thing. This allows for rapid coding and linear debugging as it wont end up with combinatorial explosion of test cases. Of course the tradebot topology becomes crazy complicated and could inadvertently spawn skynet, but dont tell anyone :)

Still have to debug the actual dependency thing, but maybe its time for lunch first.

James
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jl777

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OK, figured out how to specify inputs, basically exchange, base, rel, lang, botname, botid, signal name!

So we have 7 dimensional set of input signals to choose from and many of these are very extensible.
Now if I make a simple stack based forth control flow, I think this is Turing complete!
Since it runs on all client nodes, does that mean it is decentralized? Actually, no, each node runs their own set of tradebots

Still, now I need to figure out what sorts of things need to be supported on the input signals
I think with all the flexibility built into the signals, maybe just a tristate buy/sell/do nothing with a volume
Is that all I need?

There is passive and active bots, so I need to support that. Some bots wait until somebody else makes an offer, but without any bots that proactively make offers, it will just be deadlock city!

So, to implement a NXT -> BTC bridge, I think I just need to make the tradebot proactively find sellers of BTC at the right price, aha! I also need some fancy things like, withdraw from MGW to a BTC address. So I think a pretty simple tradebot would have the code to do the conversion and then follow with a send of BTC (by using MGW, its just withdraw command for all supported coins!)

James
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coinomat

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this is very cool, we would need a market-making bot for NXT, to provide better liquidity and make the spread smaller. Really interested, waiting for the trade bot language.
Time to go further

jl777

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this is very cool, we would need a market-making bot for NXT, to provide better liquidity and make the spread smaller. Really interested, waiting for the trade bot language.
I have some relatively big announcement in this regard, coming soon on the main price speculation thread

James
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jl777

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this is very cool, we would need a market-making bot for NXT, to provide better liquidity and make the spread smaller. Really interested, waiting for the trade bot language.
https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/price-speculation/msg71681/#msg71681

I was able to a Turing complete language done today!
In addition to all the data access, we now have picoc to write the scripts with and they can combine with external API, plus all my signal processing code and soon SVM creations

James
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Tosch110

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Sounds awesome. Need more nxtcoinsco :D
No hurry, it will take time to create the tradebot creation stuff and until then it will only be the InstantDEX revenue sharing

If you have any requests for the type of things you want your tradebot to be able to do, please let me know.
I am doing this incrementally, so at first it will just have a target price and a few indicators to use as confirmation/prevention

This solves the InstantDEX problem of not having the trades automatically matched. Each one is negotiated peer to peer and it is just not practical for users to have to respond manually, so this accelerated the need for tradebots by a few months

James

This have been times ... and now look at you. Solving all these problems and proposing a groundbreaking solution. And this within 1 day.
Great job ;D

jl777

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Sounds awesome. Need more nxtcoinsco :D
No hurry, it will take time to create the tradebot creation stuff and until then it will only be the InstantDEX revenue sharing

If you have any requests for the type of things you want your tradebot to be able to do, please let me know.
I am doing this incrementally, so at first it will just have a target price and a few indicators to use as confirmation/prevention

This solves the InstantDEX problem of not having the trades automatically matched. Each one is negotiated peer to peer and it is just not practical for users to have to respond manually, so this accelerated the need for tradebots by a few months

James

This have been times ... and now look at you. Solving all these problems and proposing a groundbreaking solution. And this within 1 day.
Great job ;D
Thanks. I still have to finish up the loose ends and connect the key data sources into the picoc, but it all seems not a problem. picoc is pretty nicely written, but I guess it helps that I wrote a C compiler before. picoc is not full C, but enough so that I will feel at home and not slow down to learn a new language :)

So, by next weekend I hope to have fully functional picoc scripts doing real useful stuff, but maybe I will take a couple days off next weekend.

James
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coinomat

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I'll definitely start with market making bot now, did not expect that could happen so fast
this is very cool, we would need a market-making bot for NXT, to provide better liquidity and make the spread smaller. Really interested, waiting for the trade bot language.
https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/price-speculation/msg71681/#msg71681

I was able to a Turing complete language done today!
In addition to all the data access, we now have picoc to write the scripts with and they can combine with external API, plus all my signal processing code and soon SVM creations

James
Time to go further

jl777

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I'll definitely start with market making bot now, did not expect that could happen so fast
this is very cool, we would need a market-making bot for NXT, to provide better liquidity and make the spread smaller. Really interested, waiting for the trade bot language.
https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/price-speculation/msg71681/#msg71681

I was able to a Turing complete language done today!
In addition to all the data access, we now have picoc to write the scripts with and they can combine with external API, plus all my signal processing code and soon SVM creations

James
Neither did I!
Today was a very productive day :)
Give me a week to get all the kinks out and a few real world test cases working

James
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