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Johnson

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What seems certain is that James payed BM money for delivery of something.
Sure it is not delivered, and he is not willing to pay it back.

well then, regardless of what james is, or is not, BM1 is a scammer.  you apparently do not understand how the term "mutually exclusive" works.  even if it could be conclusively proven that james is a scammer, that still does not make BM1 not be a scammer.

sorry, but you fail at basic logic

Was there an agreement that the money needed to be returned by BM if there was no delivery?

This you should ask to James, what agreement did he make with BM?

I suspect, he did not do a good job as a manager and just gave the money without an agreement on delivery.

In that case BM is not a scammer and can keep the money for work done.

And even if that amount was too much for the work he has proven to have done, if he sold the NXT for $10k, I can imagine he is not able to return any of it.

Does not make him a scammer though.

So, to repeat, to me it is not certain BM is a scammer, and it is not certain for James neither.

But I hope we can agree that - both - failed here, and - both - have more evidence against them of being scammers, or poor entrepreneurs.
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jl777

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johnson, please tell me how my reasoning is wrong here:

jl777 sent bm1 some NXT and some asset to complete the project
bm1, instead of working on the project, starts making accusations, and clearly has no intent of completing the project
bm1 also plans on keeping the nxt and assets
IMO, bm1 owes back the nxt and assets

johnson ONLY, what is wrong with my thinking?  am I missing something?

I think you are right in your analyses of what happened.

But what you are missing here, in my opinion, is that you are an investor.

You are not a coworker in the venture, you are not the manager of the venture.

As an investor, it is unwise to get involved in the day to day operations.

As an investor you must make the manager fully responsible for the outcome of the investment/venture.

He makes the decisions, and you will judge him. If the venture fails for whatever reason, he is responsible.

If he points fingers to others, or is not taking responsibility for the decisions he made, that is a very bad sign.

If he apologizes sincerely, or even makes your loss whole, that is good, but until then, he is not to be entrusted with any more money!

so you would agree then, that what jl777 is not considered scamming, but what bm1 has done is?

Honestly for me that is not clear.

What seems certain is that James payed BM money for delivery of something.

Sure it is not delivered, and he is not willing to pay it back.

But this does not mean that BM scammed, or that James scammed.

But equally both may be scammers.

Scam is used quickly as a word but a true scam is something that was sold under false pretenses. It is very hard to decide whether this was the case as even the scammer himself will believe his own stories that they will deliver, and even for the people close to this person it may take years before they realise this person is a scammer. I speak from experience sadly.   :-\

For example, here the project is not delivered and the story is that this is because BM did not do any work, or started talking trash about NXT. But then his story is that he did do work, and that he still wants to continue the project. He also says that James blew up the project. This may all be true too. It is one word vs another and who is to be believed? Probably the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Now, I am biased, I don't trust James from the start. But frankly I had a hard time myself judging whether he was too good to be true, or the real deal. He is so active, sets up so much. And we all profit since he basically kickstarted the asset exchange. He also promises the sky, involves so many people.

So I couldn't really speak out. But I see that many people have a very high confidence and trust in him. I see this especially in this thread because here we have a first project that blows up. Now, I would expect people to wisen up and also become more critical of James. But what I see happening is that all the blame is directed towards someone else. And that is why I speak up, because clearly most blame is with James as it is his project, he is the manager, he sold it to the investors, he received the money from the investors!


Now, he says he will make investors whole, pay them back. But the way he does that is by taking money from other investors, some other asset. This is another red flag. Look, if he was an honest entrepreneur before investors put money in, he would warn people of the risks of this project, so that if it fails the investors were warned and he does not have to feel guilty. He would also not pay the bill if it fails, not from his own pocket, and certainly not from another asset/investor his pockets. It seems that he is very focused on his reputation, even if that means paying unjustly angry investors. This looks to me that he is hiding something.

What I think, and this is pure speculation, he is hiding, is that he is a scammer, in the meaning that he promises things, that he knows he will not deliver. Or, if he is unconscious of this and he really believes that he will deliver, that he will end up not delivering and so he is a bad entrepreneur. The evidence for that is what did he actually deliver? Because I have heard other voices that say he is all talk. If you can show me that he actually delivered something, that would be a positive indicator, though not conclusive! The scammers I have known delivered, but the product did not even come close to what was said it would, and they knew. 

I could be wrong, but to answer your question, BM may be a scammer, and James may be a scammer. I don't know.
I am making good from my personal holdings of jl777hodl, which does not impact the price of any other assets.
A lot of people seem to highly value real world practices of contracts, lawsuits, courts, lawyers, etc.
There is no need for crypto if that is what you want.

I am providing the makegood because there is clearly an expectation that the main dev for a project will be dedicated to NXT and to his project. My reliance on real world identity is what caused this error, plus the fact that I am too trusting of others as I expect them to be like me.

I believe business should be able to be done with a handshake or the online equivalent. Honor what the intent of the deal is. If something unexpected comes up, deal with it with integrity. If you have to work out every detail for every contingency and every recourse to be taken upon each case, well that is a contract and to me that means there is no trust between the two parties and to enforce this you need a giant legal framework.

99% of the people in crypto are people that feel like me and when they agree to something, they will either do it or if something changes, do their best to fix it.

A lot of people have put a lot of trust in me and I take that very seriously. Here is my first big mistake and while I can hide behind the "law" or "cryptos are risky" position, I feel that would go against the trust people have given me. I want to set an example for other asset issuers to follow that if their asset blows up for whatever reason, that a reasonable makegood be offered. No need for long lawsuits, trials, appeals, etc. Just do what is right and move on.

It is important for NXT that people be able to have confidence in AE and and issuers in general. We need to set a new standard on how to deal with these sort of issues without adopting the real world legal system. Since we really cant have an enforceable court system, this is not just my political views, but a practical necessity.

Now I have to get back to coding

James
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forkedchain

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What seems certain is that James payed BM money for delivery of something.
Sure it is not delivered, and he is not willing to pay it back.

well then, regardless of what james is, or is not, BM1 is a scammer.  you apparently do not understand how the term "mutually exclusive" works.  even if it could be conclusively proven that james is a scammer, that still does not make BM1 not be a scammer.

sorry, but you fail at basic logic

Was there an agreement that the money needed to be returned by BM if there was no delivery?

This you should ask to James, what agreement did he make with BM?

I suspect, he did not do a good job as a manager and just gave the money without an agreement on delivery.

In that case BM is not a scammer and can keep the money for work done.

And even if that amount was too much for the work he has proven to have done, if he sold the NXT for $10k, I can imagine he is not able to return any of it.

Does not make him a scammer though.

So, to repeat, to me it is not certain BM is a scammer, and it is not certain for James neither.

But I hope we can agree that - both - failed here, and - both - have more evidence against them of being scammers, or poor entrepreneurs.

thank you very much for making your point clear.  Its always nice for people of questionable morals to out themselves publicly like this, so I and others know not to deal with them personally in the future.
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Johnson

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What seems certain is that James payed BM money for delivery of something.
Sure it is not delivered, and he is not willing to pay it back.

well then, regardless of what james is, or is not, BM1 is a scammer.  you apparently do not understand how the term "mutually exclusive" works.  even if it could be conclusively proven that james is a scammer, that still does not make BM1 not be a scammer.

sorry, but you fail at basic logic

Was there an agreement that the money needed to be returned by BM if there was no delivery?

This you should ask to James, what agreement did he make with BM?

I suspect, he did not do a good job as a manager and just gave the money without an agreement on delivery.

In that case BM is not a scammer and can keep the money for work done.

And even if that amount was too much for the work he has proven to have done, if he sold the NXT for $10k, I can imagine he is not able to return any of it.

Does not make him a scammer though.

So, to repeat, to me it is not certain BM is a scammer, and it is not certain for James neither.

But I hope we can agree that - both - failed here, and - both - have more evidence against them of being scammers, or poor entrepreneurs.

thank you very much for making your point clear.  Its always nice for people of questionable morals to out themselves publicly like this, so I and others know not to deal with them personally in the future.

 ???

Do you think I have low morals?

Why?
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Voluntold

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Wow, it took a while to read through this whole thread, but man, the Nxt community can be so entertaining at times.   :)

Well this seems like a pretty cut and dry case for me anyways.  I still trust jl777.  I do not trust BM.  Really sorry for the people that lost money and won't be able to recover it.  :'(

And yeah, James is totally right about having to deal with this in a manner outside of the normal legal system.  Cryptocurrencies are a free market thing, and so there needs to be free market solutions.  I think this is why reputation systems are so important for Nxt.
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Eadeqa

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Someone new like bluemeanie1 should not have been given that much money in advance. That was absolutely ridiculous.  The money should have gone into escrow and should have been given in instalments, or after the project was complete.

It's pretty clear to me that bluemeanie1 is a crook, though.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 07:44:34 pm by Eadeqa »
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Jack Needles

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I am an irate investor of jl777hodl asset which now sees shares diluted by this 'giveaway'.
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forkedchain

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 ???

Do you think I have low morals?

Why?

because you think its ok to keep money for completing a job even if you dont complete the job.  I will give that its possible that some could be kept, depending on the level of work done.  in this case that level is zero and you want to give bm1 a pass because he cashed it out.

in my book, people who behave like this are trash.  hope this answers your question
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jl777

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I am an irate investor of jl777hodl asset which now sees shares diluted by this 'giveaway'.
how does my personal jl777hodl asset distribution dilute yours?
I am using my personal holdings
plus jl777hodl is a "proxy" asset, its value is its contents, and wont change based on its distribution

please explain why you feel dilution?
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Stadtfeger

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don´t give other assets for nxtautodac!!!!!!!!!!!!
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jl777

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Someone new like bluemeanie1 should not have been given that much money in advance. That was absolutely ridiculous.  The money should have gone into escrow and should have been given in instalments, or after the project was complete.

It's pretty clear to me that bluemeanie1 is a crook, though.
in hindsight I should have valued his real world identity at 0, but I was influenced by the "I am not anonymous so I can be trusted" thinking. After all, what was he going to do, just run off with all that NXT when everybody knows who he is?

James

P.S. Until today we had no escrow service that could have been used.
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Eadeqa

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because you think its ok to keep money for completing a job even if you dont complete the job.  I will give that its possible that some could be kept, depending on the level of work done.  in this case that level is zero and you want to give bm1 a pass because he cashed it out.

Lets not ignore the fact that jl77 is also responsible. He handed someone 1 million Nxt in advance before even finding out if the guy has any technical skills to complete a project -- let alone before delivering partial code and basic design.
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Johnson

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 ???

Do you think I have low morals?

Why?

because you think its ok to keep money for completing a job even if you dont complete the job.  I will give that its possible that some could be kept, depending on the level of work done.  in this case that level is zero and you want to give bm1 a pass because he cashed it out.

in my book, people who behave like this are trash.  hope this answers your question

forkedchain,

I don't think it is ok. I agree with you that it is honorable to pay back part of the amount if you don't deliver. I would do so!

What I protest however is that you say he is a scammer, if he decides not to pay it back partly. It is not a scam. It is just poor performance. And I would not do business again with such person. And indeed I don't care if he spend it already. But I would not call him a scammer!

What is your definition of a scam?
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jl777

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don´t give other assets for nxtautodac!!!!!!!!!!!!
I will only makegood with jl777hodl, which is a "proxy" asset, meaning it gets its value from what it contains and not about its distribution.
These are my personal assets, so I really should be able to give them away to whomever I want to and I want to give them away to the investors, but few seem to be making claims...
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jl777

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because you think its ok to keep money for completing a job even if you dont complete the job.  I will give that its possible that some could be kept, depending on the level of work done.  in this case that level is zero and you want to give bm1 a pass because he cashed it out.

Lets not ignore the fact that jl77 is also responsible. He handed someone 1 million Nxt in advance before even finding out if the guy has any technical skills to complete a project -- let alone before delivering partial code and basic design.
His confidence chains worked seem to be legit, maybe that isnt? Is that what you are saying?
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LocoMB

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I think this sums it up quite good:


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=212841.msg2282547#msg2282547
    
Quote

May 27, 2013, 08:13:28 AM
   
BlueMeanie is Joshua Zeidner, a java developer who contacted me a year or two ago regarding Open-Transactions and tried to start a company with me.

At the time he was very pro-Open-Transactions, and he was pushing very hard to come out to L.A. and work on a Java version of OT with me. He wanted to go right down to the courthouse and register a company so we could work on it together.

However, Johann and I ended up having to part ways with Josh due to his aggressive and toxic torpedoing of business relationships. (Several people can attest to this.) I regret that I ever had any dealings with Joshua Zeidner.

We are focused on building products, and won't engage further with Josh.



So there will be more of this following this person around.
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jl777

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 ???

Do you think I have low morals?

Why?

because you think its ok to keep money for completing a job even if you dont complete the job.  I will give that its possible that some could be kept, depending on the level of work done.  in this case that level is zero and you want to give bm1 a pass because he cashed it out.

in my book, people who behave like this are trash.  hope this answers your question

forkedchain,

I don't think it is ok. I agree with you that it is honorable to pay back part of the amount if you don't deliver. I would do so!

What I protest however is that you say he is a scammer, if he decides not to pay it back partly. It is not a scam. It is just poor performance. And I would not do business again with such person. And indeed I don't care if he spend it already. But I would not call him a scammer!

What is your definition of a scam?
Hey johnson, why not hold a karma vote?
people who agree with you can give you karma and people that agree with forkedchain a smite?
Up for that?
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Stadtfeger

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don´t give other assets for nxtautodac!!!!!!!!!!!!
I will only makegood with jl777hodl, which is a "proxy" asset, meaning it gets its value from what it contains and not about its distribution.
These are my personal assets, so I really should be able to give them away to whomever I want to and I want to give them away to the investors, but few seem to be making claims...

you know it probably is not what happens then?

there are also some who have paid for jl777hodl 1.4 Nxt, I for example.

should I lose more? look at your nxtventure! I'm getting tired of your shit here!
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Jack Needles

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I am an irate investor of jl777hodl asset which now sees shares diluted by this 'giveaway'.
how does my personal jl777hodl asset distribution dilute yours?
I am using my personal holdings
plus jl777hodl is a "proxy" asset, its value is its contents, and wont change based on its distribution

please explain why you feel dilution?

Many will sell and price will go down.  Therefore dilution.

I own 49,000 jl77hodl assets, which were bought at 1.339, 1.34, and 1.37.  My sell order at will probably never get filled.

NXT-KHKB-6RCZ-FAWP-7E7H2

Perhaps I was mistaken in the management of this proxy fund.  Without dividends, I was under the impression that the asset issuer would maintain a price level that is reflective of the holdings value.  Your simply stating it has value because of what it holds is nonsense.  Can you answer in clearer terms why jl77hodl has value?  I feel like I'm left holding the bag on this one, and out a bunch of NXT.
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forkedchain

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 ???

Do you think I have low morals?

Why?

because you think its ok to keep money for completing a job even if you dont complete the job.  I will give that its possible that some could be kept, depending on the level of work done.  in this case that level is zero and you want to give bm1 a pass because he cashed it out.

in my book, people who behave like this are trash.  hope this answers your question

forkedchain,

I don't think it is ok. I agree with you that it is honorable to pay back part of the amount if you don't deliver. I would do so!

What I protest however is that you say he is a scammer, if he decides not to pay it back partly. It is not a scam. It is just poor performance. And I would not do business again with such person. And indeed I don't care if he spend it already. But I would not call him a scammer!

What is your definition of a scam?

no, poor performance would be delivering shitty/buggy code.  he delivered nothing.  this is THE definition (not mine) of a scam.

What is your definition?  Have you never received the email from the Nigerian prince's uncle who asks for payment to deliver gold to you?  If you were to pay him he would not deliver shitty/tainted gold, he would deliver no gold.  this is a classic scam.

I cannot understand how you do not see the 1:1 analogy here.
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