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LocoMB

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Nxt Improvement Proposals - Introduce and Discuss NIPs here
« on: March 23, 2014, 11:06:58 am »

What are 'NIPs'?

The term 'Nxt Improvement Proposal' or 'NIP' describes the formal specification and decision making process used by the Nxt community.
 
It is used to develop, discuss and decide on proposed extensions, modifications and improvements to the Nxt platform
 
Nxt Improvement Proposals are introduced, discussed and developed in this thread in the Nxt Forum.

This represents the preparatory phase of a formal decision making process.

The Nxt community orients this decision making process by the examples of the Bitcoin and Python communities.

Regarding the decision making, there are differences from the Python and Bitcoin communities.

The voting system that is built into the Nxt platform offers native and elegant method for decision making.



The following represents NIP#1.

Quote

NIP #1:
version 1. Author: <antanst>

Proposal of a clearly defined procedure on reaching community input and consensus about NXT features regarding technical and architectural matters, as well as relaying such consensus to the core NXT development team.

Matters that are not of architectural or technical consequence to the NXT code base, and consequently not of interest to the core developers, are not covered by this proposal.

The proposed procedure is comprised of the following steps:
 
  • Gathering community input about a proposed new feature or modification to an existing feature concerning the NXT platform.
    A thread on the forum will be created for discussing the upcoming proposal.
    Every member of the NXT community will be able to present his opinion there, as well as take the initiative of crafting the NIP (see next step).

  • Crafting the NIP in a coherent and concise way.
    The proposal should clearly state the ideas behind it, as well as the reasons for its consideration.
    The NXT tech commitee can potentially help on this step.

  • Voting on the proposal by the community.
    Voting will be carried out by using the NXT voting platform.
    A poll with a reasonable deadline will be constructed and all members of the NXT ecosystem will be able to vote on this.
    In order to avoid confusions by spam, invalid or duplicate polls, the poll ID should also be referenced in the NIP itself.

  • Once voting is finished, the vote results as well as the proposal itself will be relayed to the core developers.
    Afterwards, the developers can update the community whether they accept or reject the proposal, as well as state any recommended amends for it to be accepted.

  • Accepted NIPs will be posted on a specific read-only forum section, which will function as a NIP archive as well as a roadmap for the community.


Care should be taken when crafting NIPs.
The NIPs should be considered strictly as proposals, and should not specify a deadline or anything that can be interpreted as placing constraints or additional burden to the development workflow.
Details such as payments or deadlines do not belong in the proposals themselves, and should be discussed separately.

We believe that the use of this procedure will help the community to reach mutual consent, ease coordination between various committee members and make sure that they are aligned to the community's input.

It is therefore proposed to use this procedure to convey the communities' consensus to the core developers of the NXT project.
 
« Last Edit: March 23, 2014, 12:01:47 pm by l8orre »
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antanst

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Re: Nxt Improvement Proposals - Introduce and Discuss NIPs here
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2014, 11:10:24 am »

Thank you l8rre.

I've been talking to J-L, and he approves of this procedure.

There's one prerequisite for this to work that isn't ready yet: The Voting System (VS). Current status is that the code is there, but it is untested, it lacks client support, and there are some issues to be resolved (most notably, the exact way the votes will be calculated).

So we have time. Let's get down to polishing it.
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LocoMB

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Re: Nxt Improvement Proposals - Introduce and Discuss NIPs here
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2014, 10:57:54 am »

I'd like to add a few details.
Obviously, we are in the predicament of having to decide on a decision making process w/o having a decision making process -classical circular dependency.

Anyway, the sentiment I get from the core developer group goes like this: In order to get to know what the community wants and to avoid attritional circular discussions, votes will be held over technical and architectural issues to be integrated into the NRS core.

The core devs do have a veto right based on technical reasons, and if they exercise it, the community or a subgroup of the community that would like to persist re. implementation of that particular technical feature will have the burden of proof to to put the matter to another vote.

Burden of proof would mean external auditing.

As to the exact modus of voting system used, there are a few interesting options available - enumerated here without any consideration of pro or con:

  • stake based: 1 Nxt, 1 vote.
  • account based: 1 vote per account
  • one of the above plus using a time lock: only accounts that are frozen for the duration of the poll are eligible to vote
    ie, votes are only counted if there are no movements of Nxt in or out of the account during the duration of the poll 

« Last Edit: March 25, 2014, 12:24:52 pm by l8orre »
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antanst

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Re: Nxt Improvement Proposals - Introduce and Discuss NIPs here
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2014, 01:52:54 pm »

The core devs do have a veto right based on technical reasons

...and that's all there is to it. We just have to wait for the VS details to be decided upon by the devs, and then with the combination of VS + above proposal we've got a nice, complete system for voting proposals.

Quote
the community or a subgroup of the community that would like to persist re. implementation of that particular technical feature will have the burden of proof to to put the matter to another vote.

This community of subgroup could make a fork and try to convince people to come to them. No point in dealing with whatever happens if devs say "no" to a proposal.

Quote
As to the exact modus of voting system used, there are a few interesting options available - enumerated here without any consideration of pro or con:

  • stake based: 1 Nxt, 1 vote.

This method is flawed, as one could transfer his NXT onto another account and vote again.

Quote
  • account based: 1 vote per account

Flawed as well, one could break his nxt into many accounts (incurring tx fees), and vote multiple times.

Quote
  • one of the above plus using a time lock: only accounts that are frozen for the duration of the poll are eligible to vote
    ie, votes are only counted if there are no movements of Nxt in or out of the account during the duration of the poll 

Something like this would be the only reasonable mechanism of voting. The devs are already aware of it, we just have to wait a bit for them to iron it out.
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Meizirkki

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Re: Nxt Improvement Proposals - Introduce and Discuss NIPs here
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2014, 05:24:32 am »

The most (IMO the only) sane voting mechanism is pay-per-vote.
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vladimirceman91

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Re: Nxt Improvement Proposals - Introduce and Discuss NIPs here
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2014, 09:28:34 am »

I have a proposal that I believe is very important.
Since NXT is the second generation cryptocurrency and it solves all the problems of bitcoin, it doesn't actually solve bitcoins deflation.
If someone forgets his password, he will lose all their NXTs, so my proposal is:

-if a user doesn't use his account for example in 6 months period, all the NXTs in his account are placed in the forging pool and then distrubuted among the users via PoS system,
-but if a user suddenly (god forbid) dies and he didn't give his password to his relative, his NXTs shouldn't be distributed among the users, so I propose an option to select an heir account, that will inherit in a period of (for example) 6 months the NXTs of the deceased.

This will ensure that all the 1 billion NXTs remain in circulation.

Thank You!
« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 09:34:15 am by vladimirceman91 »
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pandaisftw

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Re: Nxt Improvement Proposals - Introduce and Discuss NIPs here
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2014, 09:58:15 am »

I have a proposal that I believe is very important.
Since NXT is the second generation cryptocurrency and it solves all the problems of bitcoin, it doesn't actually solve bitcoins deflation.
If someone forgets his password, he will lose all their NXTs, so my proposal is:

-if a user doesn't use his account for example in 6 months period, all the NXTs in his account are placed in the forging pool and then distrubuted among the users via PoS system,
-but if a user suddenly (god forbid) dies and he didn't give his password to his relative, his NXTs shouldn't be distributed among the users, so I propose an option to select an heir account, that will inherit in a period of (for example) 6 months the NXTs of the deceased.

This will ensure that all the 1 billion NXTs remain in circulation.

Thank You!

Hm, no, that wouldn't work. As a service a company provides, maybe, but no way this should be in the core. How do you know someone forgot his password? Maybe he just didn't log in for a while because he only has a small stake in NXT and forgot about it. Then when he comes back and finds out it's gone, all hell is going to break loose.

Anyways, if someone one forgets or dies, and leaves NXT in his account, then that NXT is effectively "lost" - thus, all other NXT will be worth more. So it doesn't really matter if some NXT drop out of circulation.

vladimirceman91

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Re: Nxt Improvement Proposals - Introduce and Discuss NIPs here
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2014, 10:16:28 am »

Lets imagine that NXT becomes the world wide currency and someone worked entire life to earn those NXTs, but he dies and his entire life savings gone, that wouldn't be fair to his relatives.

They don't have to set the limit to 6 months, they can set 1 year or 2. But I believe that if you have money (NXTs) on your computer, you wouldn't just forget about it.
If they implement this, then they should put big warning sign to use the account at least once in 6 months or a year or two and also warn the user via email or any contact few weeks and few days before distributing his NXTs.

Everything would be ofcourse automatic, the network will by itself recognise the outdated account, send warnings and then distribute NXTs or pass on to the heir/heirs.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 11:52:10 am by vladimirceman91 »
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Tosch110

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Re: Nxt Improvement Proposals - Introduce and Discuss NIPs here
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2014, 12:59:06 pm »

I do not see any advantage in a law to use your account during a limited time span or frequently for a given period of time.

Maybe i am going to travel for 1 year, all my savings are lost?
Sometimes you just want to forget a business for a time, this should be possible. To invest in NXT, forget it for the next 3-4 years and come back. If your savings are worth a lot more or nothing - but it is still there.

The amount of gold is aswell limited on earth. Some people might have let a brick fall into the sea... very unlikely to be found again.
If people do not set up a last will and die... well this problem exist in the real world and in the virtual world.

The big thing about these virtual currencies is, you are fully responsible for your money yourself.

This is what we want to archive or not? If you are stupid, never write down your code or make mistakes... well, no bank is going to refund you. Maybe the community will if they are helpful. But this does not have to be the case.

There will always be cases in which this will be negative for some people but who is to blaim? The developer because they did not implement an algorithm that saves your money in any case you could come up with what could happen to your NXT out of bad decisions?

You are responsible to what happens to your savings and your NXT.

I do not see any advantage in forcing people to access their account

vladimirceman91

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Re: Nxt Improvement Proposals - Introduce and Discuss NIPs here
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2014, 01:21:13 pm »

The advantage is security, people want to feel secure about their finances, if a user dies with the money in bank, family can recover it, but if a user die with NXT account, noone can recover those NXTs without the password.

And if someone is stupid and loses his password, he can just wait for the period to expire and collect his NXTs from his heir, or if he didn't selected the heir, at least the NXTs will be given to every contributor and not lost.

And a question... how do you determine if the NXTs are lost or someone is saving them for later? The account and the NXTs are on the network either way.
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PoofKnuckle

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Re: Nxt Improvement Proposals - Introduce and Discuss NIPs here
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2014, 01:28:15 pm »

If this is a concern for a NXT use, then that user should set up a "Dead Man's Switch," like this one:

http://deadmansswitch.org

Send your family member an email with your password (or info leading to your password) if you don't respond after some set length of time.

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pandaisftw

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Re: Nxt Improvement Proposals - Introduce and Discuss NIPs here
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2014, 01:35:05 pm »

The advantage is security, people want to feel secure about their finances, if a user dies with the money in bank, family can recover it, but if a user die with NXT account, noone can recover those NXTs without the password.

And if someone is stupid and loses his password, he can just wait for the period to expire and collect his NXTs from his heir, or if he didn't selected the heir, at least the NXTs will be given to every contributor and not lost.

And a question... how do you determine if the NXTs are lost or someone is saving them for later? The account and the NXTs are on the network either way.

There are already services like this in the real-world, why does it have to be built-in? All it would do is cast NXT in a negative light when someone messes up and puts a really short timer on it and then loses all their money. They can write down their password, and store it in a safe.

Basing it on a timer is a very bad idea, imo.

I'm also 99% sure with turing-complete scripts, you can instruct the script to send an email to a recipient if you do not check in with the script every year or so. But again, this is a service ontop of NXT, and the user has to willingly supply this script their password (which will somehow have to securely store it). Or they can just leave a hint like: "check under the bed" which will be sent to a relative who knows what they are talking about.

Pandaisftw

vladimirceman91

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Re: Nxt Improvement Proposals - Introduce and Discuss NIPs here
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2014, 01:45:57 pm »

haha...good one...it could work, but I was thinking of implementing it to NXT...

The main issue about the cryptocurrencies is security, bitcoins problem is losing the wallet or servers with wallets ripping you off (Mt. GOX).
I like NXT because you don't have to worry about the wallet since it's on the network, but the NXT problem is losing the password.

If you have proposals to solve this, your opinion is welcome.

It certainly doesn't have to be a timer.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 01:47:39 pm by vladimirceman91 »
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bitcoinpaul

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Re: Nxt Improvement Proposals - Introduce and Discuss NIPs here
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2014, 02:53:40 pm »

I find it quite difficult to find something more user-friendly than writing down twelve words on a piece of paper.
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vladimirceman91

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Re: Nxt Improvement Proposals - Introduce and Discuss NIPs here
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2014, 07:24:44 am »

It is quite user friendly, but sh*t happens, we cannot leave something like that to a chance, if we want the perfect cryptocurrency, everything has to be 100% perfect.
If someone loses his password, there should be a mechanism to recover it.
And in a case of death, there should be something to solve this issue.
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P2PGuy

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Re: Nxt Improvement Proposals - Introduce and Discuss NIPs here
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2014, 09:47:14 pm »

Q: Is it time to launch the NXT social network?  Do we have a developer team working on such an API or plugin to the AE or visa versa for NXT micro payments?

As more outsiders and new commercial users discover NXT, it may make sense to have a public NXT social network - with all the bad features we 'don't like' about FB and the rest, taken out.

I see many acquisitions (What's App) FB now incorporating micro payments with BTC. QuickCoin's 'social wallet' allows simple bitcoin transactions between Facebook friends http://coinde.sk/1kEQvBd

I guess, a NXT social network would be a great opportunity to cross promote and link NXT services, the AE, concepts, games, websites, together with users on a NXT social network platform, that had all the right features, of course.

Just a thought...

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supercell

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Re: Nxt Improvement Proposals - Introduce and Discuss NIPs here
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2014, 08:03:36 am »

I have a proposal that I believe is very important.
Since NXT is the second generation cryptocurrency and it solves all the problems of bitcoin, it doesn't actually solve bitcoins deflation.
If someone forgets his password, he will lose all their NXTs, so my proposal is:

-if a user doesn't use his account for example in 6 months period, all the NXTs in his account are placed in the forging pool and then distrubuted among the users via PoS system,
-but if a user suddenly (god forbid) dies and he didn't give his password to his relative, his NXTs shouldn't be distributed among the users, so I propose an option to select an heir account, that will inherit in a period of (for example) 6 months the NXTs of the deceased.

This will ensure that all the 1 billion NXTs remain in circulation.

Thank You!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demurrage

an implementation in crypto:

Freicoin Digital Demurrage Currency Freicoin: a peer-to-peer digital currency delivering freedom from usury
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supercell

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Re: Nxt Improvement Proposals - Introduce and Discuss NIPs here
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2014, 08:23:17 am »

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Brangdon

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Re: Nxt Improvement Proposals - Introduce and Discuss NIPs here
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2014, 02:38:31 pm »

As to the exact modus of voting system used, there are a few interesting options available - enumerated here without any consideration of pro or con:

  • stake based: 1 Nxt, 1 vote.

This method is flawed, as one could transfer his NXT onto another account and vote again.
Presumably the count would be based on a particular snapshot of the block-chain, advertised in advance. There has to be deadline when final votes are counted, and that would be specified with a block height. The voting mechanism doesn't have to be in the core. You could vote by sending an empty Arbitrary Message from your account, and someone could weight the votes by account balances at the close of voting by hand if necessary. (Obviously software would be better, but the code doesn't need to be added to the core, with all the rigour that implies. The votes/AMs and balances would be in the block-chain, so anyone could check the count was right.)

Quote
Quote
  • one of the above plus using a time lock: only accounts that are frozen for the duration of the poll are eligible to vote
    ie, votes are only counted if there are no movements of Nxt in or out of the account during the duration of the poll 

Something like this would be the only reasonable mechanism of voting.
Sounds draconian to me. If the voting lasted for two weeks, that would be two weeks during which interested parties couldn't spend any money without losing some of their voting power.
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colin012

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Re: Nxt Improvement Proposals - Introduce and Discuss NIPs here
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2014, 02:44:33 am »

I'd like to add a few details.
Obviously, we are in the predicament of having to decide on a decision making process w/o having a decision making process -classical circular dependency.

Anyway, the sentiment I get from the core developer group goes like this: In order to get to know what the community wants and to avoid attritional circular discussions, votes will be held over technical and architectural issues to be integrated into the NRS core.

The core devs do have a veto right based on technical reasons, and if they exercise it, the community or a subgroup of the community that would like to persist re. implementation of that particular technical feature will have the burden of proof to to put the matter to another vote.

Burden of proof would mean external auditing.

As to the exact modus of voting system used, there are a few interesting options available - enumerated here without any consideration of pro or con:

  • stake based: 1 Nxt, 1 vote.
  • account based: 1 vote per account
  • one of the above plus using a time lock: only accounts that are frozen for the duration of the poll are eligible to vote
    ie, votes are only counted if there are no movements of Nxt in or out of the account during the duration of the poll 

Or you could do it node based: 1 vote per node by storing a list of what accounts are running nodes on the blockchain.
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