elective-stereophonic
elective-stereophonic
NRS v1.6.2 singapore
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Latest Stable Nxt Client: Nxt 1.12.2

Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8 9 ... 18  All

Author Topic: NRS v1.6.2  (Read 95873 times)

dude

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +44/-5
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 207
    • View Profile
Re: NRS v1.6.2
« Reply #120 on: November 06, 2015, 04:17:51 pm »

The problem is that SuperNET apps are mostly designed to use Jay. And what Jay does is that it connects to random public nodes (to increase decentralization and the user would not have to install Nxt locally and download the blockchain. Even though, we still open the possibility and recommend the user to install Nxt). What Jay will do most of the time when a user runs SuperNET Lite for example is connecting to strong nodes in the network. And these strong and reliable nodes are expected to run the newest stable version. So once this newest stable version (like 1.6.2) breaks the existing API, all SuperNET apps will not function in this case.

This explains a lot and also means that you cannot compare this situation to other centralized APIs.

This is once again a situation where we are the first to deal with, from decentralized development and deployment to actual usage of the system.

The other issue is the rapid development of NRS features, it's hard to remain stable if you are adding new features and reworking the internal structure very often.

Only solution I can see right now to solve this for the good on both sides is API versioning.
Logged

lurker10

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +168/-33
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1334
    • View Profile
Re: NRS v1.6.2
« Reply #121 on: November 06, 2015, 04:23:27 pm »

Of course NXT must stay backwards compatible. A few more methods to maintain in the classes, how is this a problem?
Logged
Run a node - win a prize! "Lucky node" project jar: NXT-8F28-EDVE-LPPX-HY4E7

Klokan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Karma: +28/-5
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 288
    • View Profile
Re: NRS v1.6.2
« Reply #122 on: November 06, 2015, 04:36:40 pm »


The 1.6.1e changelog did have an "incompatible changes" section, and the rest of the incompatible changes were also included in the 1.6.2 changelog, but now we realize that in practice this is not sufficient. To improve communication to potentially affected parties, we plan to setup mailing lists for such notifications, and make sure to announce important changes as early as pratically possible in the future.

If I remember well, last year, after "first crisis" due to incompatible changes of API in core NRS, there was a promise/assumption "to create a mailing list for such notifications". To make a mailing list is really-not-to-hard-action, that spends 15-20 minutes at all. So, question is simple -- why it cannot be done for whole the one year and now we're there again -- in the same situation ?

In any case, I'd like to believe that this is a huge lesson for "both sides", or for the all participants, more precisely. Also I hope very strong, that James will be able (and wants to do it) reconsider his decision. Partnership between SuperNet and NXT is extremely interesting and important, and - as James mentioned - it's probably more important for NXT and it's "living condition". A moment before 2nd anniversary of NXT, we have lot of serious troubles anyway - marketcap is on 1/10th as before (well, doesn't matter too much), user interest is probably smaller than earlier (this is much worse), still (almost) no success with any marketing steps (hopefully Tennessee would change it). Under this situation, leaving of SuperNet would be - I'm afraid - the "kiss of death".

But maybe we still can find a consensus, hopefully. It would be the last chance for it.
Logged

Damelon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +792/-54
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2314
    • View Profile
    • Nxt Inside
Re: NRS v1.6.2
« Reply #123 on: November 06, 2015, 04:55:31 pm »


The 1.6.1e changelog did have an "incompatible changes" section, and the rest of the incompatible changes were also included in the 1.6.2 changelog, but now we realize that in practice this is not sufficient. To improve communication to potentially affected parties, we plan to setup mailing lists for such notifications, and make sure to announce important changes as early as pratically possible in the future.

If I remember well, last year, after "first crisis" due to incompatible changes of API in core NRS, there was a promise/assumption "to create a mailing list for such notifications". To make a mailing list is really-not-to-hard-action, that spends 15-20 minutes at all. So, question is simple -- why it cannot be done for whole the one year and now we're there again -- in the same situation ?

In any case, I'd like to believe that this is a huge lesson for "both sides", or for the all participants, more precisely. Also I hope very strong, that James will be able (and wants to do it) reconsider his decision. Partnership between SuperNet and NXT is extremely interesting and important, and - as James mentioned - it's probably more important for NXT and it's "living condition". A moment before 2nd anniversary of NXT, we have lot of serious troubles anyway - marketcap is on 1/10th as before (well, doesn't matter too much), user interest is probably smaller than earlier (this is much worse), still (almost) no success with any marketing steps (hopefully Tennessee would change it). Under this situation, leaving of SuperNet would be - I'm afraid - the "kiss of death".

But maybe we still can find a consensus, hopefully. It would be the last chance for it.

We are putting up that mailing list right now. And yes, it's needed.

What is also needed is that we listen to each other (this goes for both sides of the fence!).
This is starting to turn into an entrenched warfare and that doesn't help anyone.

There needs to be a basis of trust for this, so let's not destroy that by being intransigent.

This is a trust issue we are facing, apart from the API.

To me, thát is what needs to be addressed.
Logged
Member of the Nxt Foundation | Donations: NXT-D6K7-MLY6-98FM-FLL5T
Join Nxt Slack! https://nxtchat.herokuapp.com/
Founder of Blockchain Workspace | Personal Site & Blog

v39453

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +12/-2
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 155
    • View Profile
Re: NRS v1.6.2
« Reply #124 on: November 06, 2015, 05:09:23 pm »

To me it is clear that if this version breaks the API, you should revert it.

In the current environment Nxt is in, a change in the API could make many services permanently broken, and many of them will not be updated. Maybe some software companies can force their clients to upgrade, but not Nxt in the current situation with the falling market price.  Services that use Nxt and notice it has stopped working would just disable it.
Logged

martismartis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +73/-10
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1238
    • View Profile
Re: NRS v1.6.2
« Reply #125 on: November 06, 2015, 05:12:25 pm »

To me it is clear that if this version breaks the API, you should revert it.

In the current environment Nxt is in, a change in the API could make many services permanently broken, and many of them will not be updated. Maybe some software companies can force their clients to upgrade, but not Nxt in the current situation with the falling market price.  Services that use Nxt and notice it has stopped working would just disable it.

Shepeshift already stopped, and coinomat in supernet lite client also has problems.
Logged

Cassius

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +207/-18
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2459
  • Rather be a pirate than join the navy
    • View Profile
Re: NRS v1.6.2
« Reply #126 on: November 06, 2015, 05:14:46 pm »

To me it is clear that if this version breaks the API, you should revert it.

In the current environment Nxt is in, a change in the API could make many services permanently broken, and many of them will not be updated. Maybe some software companies can force their clients to upgrade, but not Nxt in the current situation with the falling market price.  Services that use Nxt and notice it has stopped working would just disable it.

Shepeshift already stopped, and coinomat in supernet lite client also has problems.

Are exchanges affected?
Logged
I head up content for BitScan, crypto business hub.

Tosch110

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +211/-18
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2365
    • View Profile
Re: NRS v1.6.2
« Reply #127 on: November 06, 2015, 05:18:35 pm »

To me it is clear that if this version breaks the API, you should revert it.

In the current environment Nxt is in, a change in the API could make many services permanently broken, and many of them will not be updated. Maybe some software companies can force their clients to upgrade, but not Nxt in the current situation with the falling market price.  Services that use Nxt and notice it has stopped working would just disable it.

Shepeshift already stopped, and coinomat in supernet lite client also has problems.

Are exchanges affected?

It is very probable that especially Exchanges that use Assets (like Poloniex) will get problems as soon as they update. So I would recommend them not to upgrade or closely watch and integrate the changes when updating. This includes all cronjobs or scripts checking for regular incoming payments, everything that relates to display of holdings and previous transaction history.

martismartis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +73/-10
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1238
    • View Profile
Re: NRS v1.6.2
« Reply #128 on: November 06, 2015, 05:20:27 pm »

To me it is clear that if this version breaks the API, you should revert it.

In the current environment Nxt is in, a change in the API could make many services permanently broken, and many of them will not be updated. Maybe some software companies can force their clients to upgrade, but not Nxt in the current situation with the falling market price.  Services that use Nxt and notice it has stopped working would just disable it.

Shepeshift already stopped, and coinomat in supernet lite client also has problems.

Are exchanges affected?

NXT in shapeshift is disabled, myself had problems with coinomat module in supernet lite client, some transaction was not recognized by coinomat which resulted returning my NXT by Coinomat.
Logged

jl777

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +718/-123
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6170
    • View Profile
Re: NRS v1.6.2
« Reply #129 on: November 06, 2015, 05:24:46 pm »

There will be no reversal in 1.6.3.
I am very sorry to hear this.

I hope you will reconsider as without a fixed 1.6.3, I will be forced to minimize SuperNET's reliance on NXT to protect the installed based from one day just having things broken. With the lite nodes being popular and using the public nodes, this is not something that can be controlled.

You dont seem to understand that it is impossible to anticipate future changes in existing API and also that it is impossible to get the already installed software on the decentralized nodes to be updated prior to any such event. Even with notification, without months of deprecation period it prevents using NXT as a platform.

Would you respect the community's vote on this issue of backward compatibility?
I estimate it would take very little time to revert to the old default settings and that would fix dozens of API that were broken with the 1.6

James
Logged
There are over 1000 people in SuperNET slack! http://slackinvite.supernet.org/ automatically sends you an invite

I am just a simple C programmer

Bitinvestor

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Karma: +8/-2
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 54
  • Banned!
    • View Profile
Re: NRS v1.6.2
« Reply #130 on: November 06, 2015, 05:27:41 pm »

Due to this, I am rethinking my reliance on NXT for SuperNET. I have quite a lot of code that takes all my time to create and to be assured that I will have to keep reworking it forever due to backward compatibility breaking with each release. This is not practical for me.

Quite right. I wouldn't put up with this either. To simply pull the rug from underneath everybody who relies on them is stupid.

I wasn't around the last time when they promised to maintain backward compatibility, but if it's true and they broke their promise then it's best to move on. It proves that they can't be trusted.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 05:53:29 pm by Bitinvestor »
Logged

jl777

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +718/-123
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6170
    • View Profile
Re: NRS v1.6.2
« Reply #131 on: November 06, 2015, 05:31:34 pm »

To me it is clear that if this version breaks the API, you should revert it.

In the current environment Nxt is in, a change in the API could make many services permanently broken, and many of them will not be updated. Maybe some software companies can force their clients to upgrade, but not Nxt in the current situation with the falling market price.  Services that use Nxt and notice it has stopped working would just disable it.

Shepeshift already stopped, and coinomat in supernet lite client also has problems.

Are exchanges affected?
With dozens of API behavior changed, odds are the vast majority of anything that uses NXT is broken now.

This is why I have been making such noise about this. What are the chances that all the exchanges using NXT will make custom changes to previously working code in their main exchange software?

It might take them weeks to get it updated, tested and requalified. This is why a security attack vector is the ONLY acceptable reason to break backward compatibility. It is the ENTIRE installed base that could break in unpredictable ways

James
Logged
There are over 1000 people in SuperNET slack! http://slackinvite.supernet.org/ automatically sends you an invite

I am just a simple C programmer

jl777

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +718/-123
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6170
    • View Profile
Re: NRS v1.6.2
« Reply #132 on: November 06, 2015, 05:32:33 pm »

It is very probable that especially Exchanges that use Assets (like Poloniex) will get problems as soon as they update.
Which makes 1.6.3 with a fixed, backwards compatible API a priority ASAP. As soon as any exchange updates to any future version, they'll say: WTF?
I STRONGLY suggest that the links to 1.6.2 be removed ASAP with a non-broken version
and wait for a fixed 1.6.3
Logged
There are over 1000 people in SuperNET slack! http://slackinvite.supernet.org/ automatically sends you an invite

I am just a simple C programmer

EvilDave

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +341/-40
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1789
    • View Profile
    • NXT Foundation
Re: NRS v1.6.2
« Reply #133 on: November 06, 2015, 05:53:45 pm »

The problem is that SuperNET apps are mostly designed to use Jay. And what Jay does is that it connects to random public nodes (to increase decentralization and the user would not have to install Nxt locally and download the blockchain. Even though, we still open the possibility and recommend the user to install Nxt). What Jay will do most of the time when a user runs SuperNET Lite for example is connecting to strong nodes in the network. And these strong and reliable nodes are expected to run the newest stable version. So once this newest stable version (like 1.6.2) breaks the existing API, all SuperNET apps will not function in this case.

This explains a lot and also means that you cannot compare this situation to other centralized APIs.

This is once again a situation where we are the first to deal with, from decentralized development and deployment to actual usage of the system.

The other issue is the rapid development of NRS features, it's hard to remain stable if you are adding new features and reworking the internal structure very often.

Only solution I can see right now to solve this for the good on both sides is API versioning.

Yeah, it's good to be making history, though I'd prefer to do it a bit more quietly. :D

The above point on SuperNET (via Jay) connecting to random public nodes is important: this allows a short term workaround by only using 1.5.15 nodes, of which there are still about 100 running. This could also help other projects who may have issues with 1.6.3. 
Having a blockchain download available for 1.5.15 would be useful, btw.

For a long term solution, we need to raise our project management game, and by we I mean mostly Nxt.
James is right: people need to be able to completely trust that Nxt will provide a stable basis for their projects. If we lose that trust, Nxt will be just another crapcoin, because no-one will build on the Nxt platform.
However, we cannot maintain backwards compatibility indefinitely. Nxt needs to advance and evolve, otherwise we become a dead system.

What we now need to do is to create a project management structure that will maintain that trust, while allowing Nxt to evolve.
The first steps were taken last week, by appointing Riker to the project manager position, and starting with set-up of a communication channel for all Nxt/SuperNET related project devs and the core Nxt devs, so we were already getting a structure in place to avoid this. Slightly late, though. :'(

Myself and Damelon are working out little asses off to get this sorted out with everyone concerned, so I'd like to ask the community to chill out for a few hours, and allow us to figure out  a long term solution.

In the meantime: as an immediate solution (if needed) advise projects to roll back to 1.5.15, and maybe some node operators could do the same.
Logged
Nulli Dei, nulli Reges, solum NXT
NXT Donations: NXT-BNZB-9V8M-XRPW-3S3WD
We will ride eternal, shiny and chrome!

EvilDave

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +341/-40
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1789
    • View Profile
    • NXT Foundation
Re: NRS v1.6.2
« Reply #134 on: November 06, 2015, 05:55:22 pm »

It is very probable that especially Exchanges that use Assets (like Poloniex) will get problems as soon as they update.
Which makes 1.6.3 with a fixed, backwards compatible API a priority ASAP. As soon as any exchange updates to any future version, they'll say: WTF?
I STRONGLY suggest that the links to 1.6.2 be removed ASAP with a non-broken version
and wait for a fixed 1.6.3

Yes to link removal. Stay with 1.5.15 for the moment.
Logged
Nulli Dei, nulli Reges, solum NXT
NXT Donations: NXT-BNZB-9V8M-XRPW-3S3WD
We will ride eternal, shiny and chrome!

LocoMB

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +101/-37
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 751
    • View Profile
Re: NRS v1.6.2
« Reply #135 on: November 06, 2015, 05:58:12 pm »

strong agreement to link removal.

luckily I am a bit sloppy and sitll have 1.5.15 lying around, which is just now updating its blockchain
Logged
TOX
90E54E5B5213290EE616D425CADC473038CFABFA53C913271AA8559D1937DC4AF3A354A9E4E5

Peter2516

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +132/-27
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1235
    • View Profile
Re: NRS v1.6.2
« Reply #136 on: November 06, 2015, 06:04:50 pm »

« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 06:12:53 pm by Peter2516 »
Logged

yassin54

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +240/-14
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2503
  • I am Homer, Sorry my english is Bad!!
    • View Profile
Re: NRS v1.6.2
« Reply #137 on: November 06, 2015, 06:07:33 pm »

Alright, installing 1.5.15 again now...
same here!

Tosch110

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +211/-18
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2365
    • View Profile
Re: NRS v1.6.2
« Reply #138 on: November 06, 2015, 06:14:52 pm »

EvilDave

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +341/-40
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1789
    • View Profile
    • NXT Foundation
Re: NRS v1.6.2
« Reply #139 on: November 06, 2015, 06:19:03 pm »

Hold on.....project operators, and public nodes with open API are probably better off on 1.5.15, but ordinary end-users should stay on 1.6.2.
Logged
Nulli Dei, nulli Reges, solum NXT
NXT Donations: NXT-BNZB-9V8M-XRPW-3S3WD
We will ride eternal, shiny and chrome!
Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8 9 ... 18  All
 

elective-stereophonic
elective-stereophonic
assembly
assembly