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3 solutions proposed by Bter.com (200BTC deal or 310BTC bounty or Fork)  
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Author Topic: 3 solutions proposed by Bter.com (200BTC deal or 310BTC bounty or Fork)  (Read 83051 times)

jl777

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Re: 3 solutions proposed by Bter.com (200BTC deal or 310BTC bounty or Fork)
« Reply #140 on: August 16, 2014, 09:30:35 pm »

Excellent. Better still, the stolenNXT trade in their own right. Others can step in to help those who have lost NXT without risking all or it being an outright gift. I would buy stolenNXT for this reason.
Since it is on AE, it cannot help but start trading. With bter's constantly rising bid, this is a guaranteed momentum trade :)

As long as bter uses strict formula (preferably approved by shortNXT as this is his field of expertise) on the week's repurchase price, this will create a relatively stable market for stolenNXT and once it becomes clear that it is just a matter of time before everybody is made whole, bter will have reputation for surviving 1.5 mil hack, NXT AE is used in nicely creative way that allows for bter gradual buyback, community support for stolenNXT victims, etc.

James
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jl777

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Re: 3 solutions proposed by Bter.com (200BTC deal or 310BTC bounty or Fork)
« Reply #141 on: August 16, 2014, 09:32:54 pm »

One more avenue for Bter to compensate the users is to convert some of the lost NXT to their stock shares.
The stolenNXT is essentially 50% of bter revenues and represents a majority of their equity, but it will be only for the ~12 month estimated period.
Of course if bter wanted to do a fund raising by issuing BTER asset to represent their company and pledged a percentage of what they raise to increase their bid on stolenNXT, I would be happy to help

James
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Jacinto

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Re: 3 solutions proposed by Bter.com (200BTC deal or 310BTC bounty or Fork)
« Reply #142 on: August 16, 2014, 09:33:12 pm »

I propose free escrow service to do option 1.

This is how it should be done:

1. I publish my BTC and NXT accounts
2. BTER sends 200 BTC to my BTC account (after that it doesn't control these coins)
3. We are waiting for a reply from the hacker (24 hours), the reply must be a public message with his BTC account from NXT-8WJ7-8A2H-MBYN-3W9K4 to my NXT account
4. The hacker sends 46'662'000 NXT to my account
5. I send 200 BTC to his BTC account
6. I send 46+ M NXT to BTER cold wallet that already got 5 M NXT

So, if the hacker trusts me we could do it this way (the 200 BTC are not mine anyway if he worries that I could break the deal).


This is a win-win for every part involved.

Hope the hacker is reading this topic.
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Re: 3 solutions proposed by Bter.com (200BTC deal or 310BTC bounty or Fork)
« Reply #143 on: August 16, 2014, 09:33:17 pm »

I didn't read the forum for 2 days as I was on holidays and what a mess I found...
Gox,poloniex, now bter, Cyprus banks...I guess people will never learn to not to trust centralized institutions...

Anyway, since my tech skills are not great what on earth am I supposed to do so my few nxt don't become useless? How do we check which block chain is the most powerfull one and what happens if I am on the old 1.2.5 one and then 1.2.5f prevails?

I don't have much of experience in cryptos as to advise u what to do but nxt should not die in order to save bter..And the hacker should be found and punished so I would go for option 2 for what is worth..

In any case please explain me what happens if I am on 1.2.5 and the other prevail.. How long do I have to react?Are my nxts become useless?
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Re: 3 solutions proposed by Bter.com (200BTC deal or 310BTC bounty or Fork)
« Reply #144 on: August 16, 2014, 09:33:26 pm »

TheSir take the deal if you know whats good for you!! Your options are rapidly shrinking!! This community is not going to let you run off with 50 million NXT scot free. All exchanges will be on the lookout for your NXT.  If you dont take the deal that 300 BTCs turns into a bounty on your head , there will be many talented and committed people searching for you. By the looks of it soon your NXT will very likely be worthless anyway!! So what are you going to do??????
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Re: 3 solutions proposed by Bter.com (200BTC deal or 310BTC bounty or Fork)
« Reply #145 on: August 16, 2014, 09:33:43 pm »

The fourth solution:

Issue 51.x million stolenNXT assets and distribute them proportionally to the people who had the deposits in bter. This idea I copied from Lee.

Now, if any negotiations/bounty hunting/etc. gets all the NXT back, it is simple, put a bid on NXT AE at 1 NXT per 1 stolenNXT. 5 million NXT has already been recovered, so the initial bid should be ~0.1 NXT per stolenNXT. Those that are happy to recoup anything are then free to accept this bid, they get a guaranteed 10% back, the others will get a higher chance for full recovery.

Since full recovery from hacker is no 100% certain event, it is bter's responsibility to makegood the difference. This is what Tristan at Poloniex did, though 100 BTC vs 50 million NXT is so much different we cant compare the two, still bter used to be a significant exchange and if it can come up with a plan to make everybody whole, it will survive this. If not, I estimate chances of bter to become an irrelevant small exchange to be 90%+

sorry, freeworm, this is the reality. If bter does not have a plan that will make its depositors whole, you will lose 90%+ of all your other trading volumes and I doubt you will survive.

So, it is in bter's interest to make sure all NXT holders are repaid. I understand 50 45 million NXT is enormous amount, but if you can assure people that in spite of this impossible situation you have a plan with very good chance of success, then bter will become very well respected and will be able to not only survive but even become more popular.

This is what needs to be done. Allocate HALF your revenues to repurchase the stolenNXT. Each week, increase the bid for the stolenNXT by half your revenues added to the repurchase amount. So if you are doing 10000 BTC of trading in a week, at 0.2% commission on each side, 20 BTC is added to the bid of the stolenNXT. this will not be much of a change for one week, but over time, especially if your volumes grow as this becomes a way for the general crypto community to help out just by using bter for their trading, cuz they can trust bter to makegood. If your trading volumes double, then you actually are making the same revenues. Much better than 90% reductions.

let us work the numbers.

20 BTC @ 15000 NXT/BTC is 300,000 NXT per week, this is 150 weeks or three years. A long, long time, but this is much better than never.

Also, I expect that as the bid for the stolenNXT keeps increasing, more and more people will be selling and every sale below 1:1 is reducing this debt, so I estimate that if you can be adding 300K NXT per week, it will actually clear out the debt in closer to a year's time. If you get massive positive PR and a sympathy trading business, then maybe it could be much faster.

I hope that freeworm will be realistic and open to this plan. I will help how I can for the structuring of this

James

+1
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Re: 3 solutions proposed by Bter.com (200BTC deal or 310BTC bounty or Fork)
« Reply #146 on: August 16, 2014, 09:34:37 pm »

One more avenue for Bter to compensate the users is to convert some of the lost NXT to their stock shares.
The stolenNXT is essentially 50% of bter revenues and represents a majority of their equity, but it will be only for the ~12 month estimated period.
Of course if bter wanted to do a fund raising by issuing BTER asset to represent their company and pledged a percentage of what they raise to increase their bid on stolenNXT, I would be happy to help

James

Cudos to you m8! Has freeworm already contacted you?
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Re: 3 solutions proposed by Bter.com (200BTC deal or 310BTC bounty or Fork)
« Reply #147 on: August 16, 2014, 09:35:29 pm »

Who will issue the stolen NXT asset and what is it's ID?
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Wakasaki808

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Re: 3 solutions proposed by Bter.com (200BTC deal or 310BTC bounty or Fork)
« Reply #148 on: August 16, 2014, 09:36:16 pm »

The fourth solution:

Issue 51.x million stolenNXT assets and distribute them proportionally to the people who had the deposits in bter. This idea I copied from Lee.

Now, if any negotiations/bounty hunting/etc. gets all the NXT back, it is simple, put a bid on NXT AE at 1 NXT per 1 stolenNXT. 5 million NXT has already been recovered, so the initial bid should be ~0.1 NXT per stolenNXT. Those that are happy to recoup anything are then free to accept this bid, they get a guaranteed 10% back, the others will get a higher chance for full recovery.

Since full recovery from hacker is no 100% certain event, it is bter's responsibility to makegood the difference. This is what Tristan at Poloniex did, though 100 BTC vs 50 million NXT is so much different we cant compare the two, still bter used to be a significant exchange and if it can come up with a plan to make everybody whole, it will survive this. If not, I estimate chances of bter to become an irrelevant small exchange to be 90%+

sorry, freeworm, this is the reality. If bter does not have a plan that will make its depositors whole, you will lose 90%+ of all your other trading volumes and I doubt you will survive.

So, it is in bter's interest to make sure all NXT holders are repaid. I understand 50 45 million NXT is enormous amount, but if you can assure people that in spite of this impossible situation you have a plan with very good chance of success, then bter will become very well respected and will be able to not only survive but even become more popular.

This is what needs to be done. Allocate HALF your revenues to repurchase the stolenNXT. Each week, increase the bid for the stolenNXT by half your revenues added to the repurchase amount. So if you are doing 10000 BTC of trading in a week, at 0.2% commission on each side, 20 BTC is added to the bid of the stolenNXT. this will not be much of a change for one week, but over time, especially if your volumes grow as this becomes a way for the general crypto community to help out just by using bter for their trading, cuz they can trust bter to makegood. If your trading volumes double, then you actually are making the same revenues. Much better than 90% reductions.

let us work the numbers.

20 BTC @ 15000 NXT/BTC is 300,000 NXT per week, this is 150 weeks or three years. A long, long time, but this is much better than never.

Also, I expect that as the bid for the stolenNXT keeps increasing, more and more people will be selling and every sale below 1:1 is reducing this debt, so I estimate that if you can be adding 300K NXT per week, it will actually clear out the debt in closer to a year's time. If you get massive positive PR and a sympathy trading business, then maybe it could be much faster.

I hope that freeworm will be realistic and open to this plan. I will help how I can for the structuring of this

James

+1

DO THIS BTER!!! I like the idea. At least keep this as a backup
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zingzong

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Re: 3 solutions proposed by Bter.com (200BTC deal or 310BTC bounty or Fork)
« Reply #149 on: August 16, 2014, 09:36:30 pm »

Also how do i get this running on the mac client, new to macs.

1. Download the client's .zip
2. Fire up Terminal.app then cd to your NXT client folder, e.g. cd ~/Downloads/nxt
3. ./run.sh
4. access via browser at http://localhost:7876

Thanks
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mikesbmw

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Re: 3 solutions proposed by Bter.com (200BTC deal or 310BTC bounty or Fork)
« Reply #150 on: August 16, 2014, 09:37:38 pm »

Quote
A hardfork of Nxt would make it seem like just another, failed crypto-currency that could not withhold a hack on a centralized entity. What you are proposing is killing Nxt's future and it won't get us anywhere near the place you want it to be.
That is well debatable. The community is fully divided on that. Saying such as being a sure thing is foolish.

In my opinion the solution to block hacker's account only through a hard fork is a sign of exceptional communal resolve. It's not a rollback. It is a collaborative action that mitigates damage done by a malevolent party. The effect to NXT users is only beneficial. The effect to outside observers is mixed and not prominent. Do not let fear take you over and prevent you from taking action when it needs to be taken.

Quote
50m Nxt flooding the markets are very unlikely.
Not flooding but exerting incredible downward pressure during the next 3, 6 or even 12 months. It is nearly certain. The hacker will of course sell it to a private dark side investor who mixes it, cashes out some, and sells the rest forward to the next investor for a fraction of the market price. Rinse and repeat until done.

1.5 million USD extra injection to the buy side would not suffice to keep NXT afloat, because of the bad rep causing more sell pressure.

By blocking the 50M from being sold, we just have to deal with the bad rep and not the massive selling million after million until exhaustion.
So where is the line when you say: we freeze that account?

Is it when 20 million gets stolen? 10 million? 100 thousand? Who needs to cry wolf to get people to freeze "account X"?
Do we need everyone to be affected by the theft? 1000 people? 100 people? 10?

It's a VERY slippery slope Graviton... Very. (besides you wanting to use CUSTOMER deposits, which aren't yours!)
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jl777

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Re: 3 solutions proposed by Bter.com (200BTC deal or 310BTC bounty or Fork)
« Reply #151 on: August 16, 2014, 09:40:10 pm »

Who will issue the stolen NXT asset and what is it's ID?
Without commitment from BTER to fund the bid for stolenNXT, this wont work. Personally, short of pulling rabbit from hat, the fourth solution seems to be the only option. In any case, using the fourth option it is compatible with rabbit from hat scenario as that just allows for 1:1 NXT bid for stolenNXT as soon as the rabbit is from hat

James

P.S. It wont matter who issues the asset, I will gladly issue the asset and write whatever code is needed to distribute it to the people, I just need the list of accounts and amount of stolenNXT they need to be credited with. Then the rest is up to whatever happens on recovery, etc.
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Coradan

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Re: 3 solutions proposed by Bter.com (200BTC deal or 310BTC bounty or Fork)
« Reply #152 on: August 16, 2014, 09:40:29 pm »

I propose free escrow service to do option 1.

This is how it should be done:

1. I publish my BTC and NXT accounts
2. BTER sends 200 BTC to my BTC account (after that it doesn't control these coins)
3. We are waiting for a reply from the hacker (24 hours), the reply must be a public message with his BTC account from NXT-8WJ7-8A2H-MBYN-3W9K4 to my NXT account
4. The hacker sends 46'662'000 NXT to my account
5. I send 200 BTC to his BTC account
6. I send 46+ M NXT to BTER cold wallet that already got 5 M NXT

So, if the hacker trusts me we could do it this way (the 200 BTC are not mine anyway if he worries that I could break the deal).


This is a win-win for every part involved.

Hope the hacker is reading this topic.

Yep I agree with this!
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Re: 3 solutions proposed by Bter.com (200BTC deal or 310BTC bounty or Fork)
« Reply #153 on: August 16, 2014, 09:42:49 pm »

Especially driven by the exchanges like this
Going to a fork is my personal opinion, and apparently it doesn't make difference if you forge on a node with 1 NXT or 29 million NXT. So I can forge with my 1 NXT and not the exchange funds.

What exactly will cause the bad rep? NXT community choosing to reverse an undeniable, large hack just once?

So where is the line when you say: we freeze that account?
Once. Very strict line.

Remember DGEX lost 150 BTC to a hacker a month ago and I paid for it personally. Freeze or rollback was not mentioned in a word.

TBH I would have preferred blocking the funds to the hacker's account forever. That would have taken 5%+ of NXT off the market and have everyone like BTER still handle their mistakes in a nasty but sort of crypto-fair way. But that's not an option in my power to choose.
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jl777

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Re: 3 solutions proposed by Bter.com (200BTC deal or 310BTC bounty or Fork)
« Reply #154 on: August 16, 2014, 09:47:00 pm »

Quote
A hardfork of Nxt would make it seem like just another, failed crypto-currency that could not withhold a hack on a centralized entity. What you are proposing is killing Nxt's future and it won't get us anywhere near the place you want it to be.
That is well debatable. The community is fully divided on that. Saying such as being a sure thing is foolish.

In my opinion the solution to block hacker's account only through a hard fork is a sign of exceptional communal resolve. It's not a rollback. It is a collaborative action that mitigates damage done by a malevolent party. The effect to NXT users is only beneficial. The effect to outside observers is mixed and not prominent. Do not let fear take you over and prevent you from taking action when it needs to be taken.

Quote
50m Nxt flooding the markets are very unlikely.
Not flooding but exerting incredible downward pressure during the next 3, 6 or even 12 months. It is nearly certain. The hacker will of course sell it to a private dark side investor who mixes it, cashes out some, and sells the rest forward to the next investor for a fraction of the market price. Rinse and repeat until done.

1.5 million USD extra injection to the buy side would not suffice to keep NXT afloat, because of the bad rep causing more sell pressure.

By blocking the 50M from being sold, we just have to deal with the bad rep and not the massive selling million after million until exhaustion.
So where is the line when you say: we freeze that account?

Is it when 20 million gets stolen? 10 million? 100 thousand? Who needs to cry wolf to get people to freeze "account X"?
Do we need everyone to be affected by the theft? 1000 people? 100 people? 10?

It's a VERY slippery slope Graviton... Very. (besides you wanting to use CUSTOMER deposits, which aren't yours!)
I dont remember any exchange and certainly not DGEX, ever saying they wont forge. It is common for banks to earn interest on customer deposits? I think they do a lot more than just earn interest (fractional reserve lending!), so on this issue regardless of the politics, the "possession in 90% of the law" seems to apply.

Whoever has access to the funds gets to decide what to do with it, eg. forge or not, which version or not.

Of course, if DGEX wants to reflect the will of his customers, he could setup a vote, weighed by the amount in their accounts and forge proportionally to each block. That is the math based way to defuse the politics around this

James
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crimi

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Re: 3 solutions proposed by Bter.com (200BTC deal or 310BTC bounty or Fork)
« Reply #155 on: August 16, 2014, 09:50:28 pm »

@Graviton
Quote
What exactly will cause the bad rep? NXT community choosing to reverse an undeniable, large hack just once?

Did you miss vericoin? They are done in cryptoworld.

Nxt is not vericoin.

http://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/news/vericoin-developer-believe-nxt-chain-rolled-back/2014/08/15

VeriCoin Developer: “The NXT Chain Should Not Be Rolled Back”
Quote
“Because of this, I believe that the NXT chain should not be rolled back. We rolled back not to save the owners who held coin on Mintpal, but to preserve the integrity of the chain by preventing an illicit holder from attacking it.”

If there is no technical reason devs can not manipulate the blockchain.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2014, 09:59:07 pm by crimi »
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Re: 3 solutions proposed by Bter.com (200BTC deal or 310BTC bounty or Fork)
« Reply #156 on: August 16, 2014, 09:52:35 pm »

I've checked

https://blockchain.info/address/1BCN1ugdKdWd9pQ8Am9hMhtHZfmbXzxE8a

and

https://blockchain.info/address/125EJ3HYXNZ8swr2UBcvKNBV2voAYACFu9

No messages from BCNext here. He would say us what to do - to fork or not to fork. At least this worked the last time. Maybe he just has not heard about the hack yet.  ;D
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Re: 3 solutions proposed by Bter.com (200BTC deal or 310BTC bounty or Fork)
« Reply #157 on: August 16, 2014, 09:53:26 pm »

can we get this straight. Does it make a difference how much we are forging with?? if not anyone with more than one computer , get them all running 1-2-5f.
Also how do i get this running on the mac client, new to macs.

zingzong, welcome to the community! I see your account is less than half a day old. Your enthusiasm for Nxt is admirable, but I would would trust your input and your cheerleading more if you had some "age" behind your opinions.

Actually QTBC iv been into NXT since November 2013 well before this forum even existed, paid between 700 - 1400 sats so ill ignore that thanx
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Re: 3 solutions proposed by Bter.com (200BTC deal or 310BTC bounty or Fork)
« Reply #158 on: August 16, 2014, 09:58:36 pm »

1.2.5f already forging...
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Re: 3 solutions proposed by Bter.com (200BTC deal or 310BTC bounty or Fork)
« Reply #159 on: August 16, 2014, 09:59:41 pm »

Did you miss vericoin? They are done in cryptoworld.
Yes I missed it. Quite a cultivated opinion. I suspect the "being done" part was not caused by the rollback.

The vericoin guy suggests the same I did: at most, blacklist the hacker’s address and make those coins ‘disappear’ from the chain.. That would be the fairest and absolutely the best course of action from NXT's self-interest point of view also (taking 50M off distribution, plus 50M off future sell pressure) yet not zeroing out the effects of the hack to the ones responsible. Very elaborate.
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