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Author Topic: Forgers have been faced with a choice...  (Read 269507 times)

cobaltskky

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #1620 on: August 16, 2014, 04:39:06 pm »


Yes we need the help from the community and the major exchanges choosing to use our fork and abandon the fork with the 50m stolen nxt

In other words, the devs are forcing a "rollback" on us.  Can the devs please present to us who was involved in this decision and your rationale for arriving to the conclusion that this is the best course of action for the nxt community?
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Sebastien256

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #1621 on: August 16, 2014, 04:39:53 pm »

Yes we need the help from the community and the major exchanges choosing to use our fork and abandon the fork with the 50m stolen nxt

What the Nxt devs are doing at the moment, do they work on a hardfork?
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bitcoinpaul

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #1622 on: August 16, 2014, 04:40:31 pm »


I don't see how this is a solution.  That would partition the blockchain into two different versions - two different coins.  Would we merge them back together at some point?  This is scary - people could run the client on one chain with all their NXT, make purchases, etc, and then run the client on the other chain, make different purchases, etc.  How does one reconcile those two chains in the future?  We'd be doubling everybody's NXt funds(except the hackers).  I don't see how this could work.

One blockchain to rule them all.

Nxt has been frequently hard fork when there is NRS update, that is nothing new. I think freeworm is working on fork that will cancel the break-in, that is all.

Yes we need the help from the community and the major exchanges choosing to use our fork and abandon the fork with the 50m stolen nxt

U won't get the help. Do what u want.
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Breasal

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #1623 on: August 16, 2014, 04:41:21 pm »


I don't see how this is a solution.  That would partition the blockchain into two different versions - two different coins.  Would we merge them back together at some point?  This is scary - people could run the client on one chain with all their NXT, make purchases, etc, and then run the client on the other chain, make different purchases, etc.  How does one reconcile those two chains in the future?  We'd be doubling everybody's NXt funds(except the hackers).  I don't see how this could work.

One blockchain to rule them all.

Nxt has been frequently hard fork when there is NRS update, that is nothing new. I think freeworm is working on fork that will cancel the break-in, that is all.

Yes we need the help from the community and the major exchanges choosing to use our fork and abandon the fork with the 50m stolen nxt

Not gonna happen, sorry...

[scoff]...so this is what Bter means by "getting funds back from the hacker since we have lots of information on him"?![/scoff]
« Last Edit: August 16, 2014, 04:43:33 pm by Breasal »
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Sebastien256

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #1624 on: August 16, 2014, 04:41:29 pm »


Yes we need the help from the community and the major exchanges choosing to use our fork and abandon the fork with the 50m stolen nxt

In other words, the devs are forcing a "rollback" on us.  Can the devs please present to us who was involved in this decision and your rationale for arriving to the conclusion that this is the best course of action for the nxt community?

I would rather say that freeworm want to cancel 1 transaction instead of a "rollback" from the usual cryto jargon.
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ZeroTheGreat

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Thread: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #1625 on: August 16, 2014, 04:42:31 pm »

Isn't it why u moved to cryptos?
Nope. World with money can't be perfect. Either with centralized or decentralized monetary system. But decentralized system create a set of different and way more managable risks. Yeah, crashing of centralized exchange with your funds in it is one of them. Good thing — others who choose not to use such agent'll stay safe.

We can't run an economy and haven't bankruptcies. Health economy'll have 'em all the time clearing the field for new businesses. In our case for Nxt AE and gateways  ;)
« Last Edit: August 16, 2014, 04:44:50 pm by ZeroTheGreat »
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bitcoinpaul

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #1626 on: August 16, 2014, 04:43:01 pm »


Yes we need the help from the community and the major exchanges choosing to use our fork and abandon the fork with the 50m stolen nxt

In other words, the devs are forcing a "rollback" on us.  Can the devs please present to us who was involved in this decision and your rationale for arriving to the conclusion that this is the best course of action for the nxt community?

Ignore him. just a desperate bter employee.
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cobaltskky

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #1627 on: August 16, 2014, 04:48:38 pm »

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ivanzhou

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #1628 on: August 16, 2014, 04:50:49 pm »

I don't have a stake in this coz my NXT has seen any movement for last 6 months but this is the right thing to do.  However, BTER has to implement tougher security measures to prevent future occurrence.  This should only be a one-time exception. 
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bitcoinpaul

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eimon

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #1630 on: August 16, 2014, 05:00:47 pm »

This thread should be closed, rollback ain't gonna happen.
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Jean-Luc

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #1631 on: August 16, 2014, 05:03:07 pm »

Rollback is no longer possible, however a hard fork is still possible, and it will not affect transactions other than those from the frozen account. As long as some nodes still forge using 1.2.5f, and the two networks of nodes are still connected (not actively blacklisting each other), new transactions are being propagated to both node versions and being included into both forks. If enough users decide to switch to the 1.2.5f fork, it is still possible - however now the 1.2.5 nodes are not going to switch automatically to the other fork, no matter how better in terms of cumulative difficulty it becomes. In a way, it is no longer forgers that determine which fork will win, but what clients all individual users will decide to run - 1.2.5 or 1.2.5f.

There is no penalty for a forger currently to forge on both forks (this will change once Economic Clustering is active, but this is not scheduled yet). So the 1.2.5f fork can still be forged on for now, until a resolution and consensus how to handle the situation is reached.

But this is a temporary situation and irreconcilable differences between the two forks will occur even if you ignore transactions originating from the frozen account. A transaction for whatever reason may just not make it to the 1.2.5f fork. Forging fees will inevitably be different. The same account forging on both forks may generate a block on one but not on the other, and because of forging fees its balance will become different. Then a transaction from such account may be possible on one fork, but exceed the account available balance on the other, and end up rejected there. Eventually one of the forks will have to be abandoned.

I am not doing more work on the 1.2.5f version, but as it is out there users are free to use it. If it wins, I will integrate it into the main release.

Also note that as soon as one of the forks reaches DGS blocks, its transaction will no longer be accepted by the other fork until it too reaches DGS block (if they haven't expired by then). This would become another source of differences between forks. Users really should make their choice before block 213000. Now 1.2.5 is at 211035, 1.2.5f is at 210440.
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yin

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #1632 on: August 16, 2014, 05:06:04 pm »

IMHO, as JL1777 says, we can't change the past.

What needs to be addressed perhaps is the pain felt by those who've lost their NXT and what, if anything at all, can/should be done for them. Of course leaving such sums on Bter is an investment choice made by depositors for reasons that did not benefit the community much.

We should leave that theft on the block-chain as a permanent memorial of our teething days and affirmation to remain TRUSTLESS, DECENTRALIZED and HIGH INTEGRITY by prioritizing solutions that support these three properties e.g. MGW. The 'sentinel bots' idea is brilliant and should be part of our security - just keep tracking the stolen NXT distributions and conversion. Hacker may slip up, but then again she may not.

Forking or reorganizing the block-chain will leave on-lookers and potential investors wondering what other 'dark engineering' has or continues to take place on the NXT block-chain for any reason whatsoever and makes the core dev a critical risk factor for investors. It is a bad reputation we will have a hard time overcoming.

Roll-back or any other form of block-chain reorganization should only be attempted if the loss was due to bugs in NXT code, NOT individual investment decisions!!

Perhaps a recovery strategy is for Bter to pledge to refund the losses with a portion of their revenues at current exchange rates over year or two in order to save their reputation just as DGEX creator took responsibility for losses attributed to his platform.

On this note, with the mention that the block-chain has experienced several hard forks and the recent API issue, there needs to be more transparency and communication with the community regarding any such changes, including commercializing away things that should be core features of the wallet e.g. charts, an open feature release roadmap, active and inclusive committees (beyond core dev) and perhaps more open development as peoples' monies are now staked in this innovation.

My humble 2 cents.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2014, 05:28:33 pm by yin »
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bitcoinpaul

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #1633 on: August 16, 2014, 05:09:34 pm »

JL, how much % did u lost with bter?
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Darkhorse

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #1634 on: August 16, 2014, 05:14:38 pm »

The choice is simple. Either Bter survives or Nxt survives. Choose well.
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Jacinto

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #1635 on: August 16, 2014, 05:17:42 pm »

  Now 1.2.5 is at 211035, 1.2.5f is at 210440.

To release the DGS fork in 2days is totally mad. It will come totally unnoticed coz of the hack and it will cause more problems. I think that we should "postpone" this release.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2014, 05:20:11 pm by Jacinto »
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cobaltskky

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #1636 on: August 16, 2014, 05:18:49 pm »

Rollback is no longer possible, however a hard fork is still possible, and it will not affect transactions other than those from the frozen account. As long as some nodes still forge using 1.2.5f, and the two networks of nodes are still connected (not actively blacklisting each other), new transactions are being propagated to both node versions and being included into both forks. If enough users decide to switch to the 1.2.5f fork, it is still possible - however now the 1.2.5 nodes are not going to switch automatically to the other fork, no matter how better in terms of cumulative difficulty it becomes. In a way, it is no longer forgers that determine which fork will win, but what clients all individual users will decide to run - 1.2.5 or 1.2.5f.

There is no penalty for a forger currently to forge on both forks (this will change once Economic Clustering is active, but this is not scheduled yet). So the 1.2.5f fork can still be forged on for now, until a resolution and consensus how to handle the situation is reached.

But this is a temporary situation and irreconcilable differences between the two forks will occur even if you ignore transactions originating from the frozen account. A transaction for whatever reason may just not make it to the 1.2.5f fork. Forging fees will inevitably be different. The same account forging on both forks may generate a block on one but not on the other, and because of forging fees its balance will become different. Then a transaction from such account may be possible on one fork, but exceed the account available balance on the other, and end up rejected there. Eventually one of the forks will have to be abandoned.

I am not doing more work on the 1.2.5f version, but as it is out there users are free to use it. If it wins, I will integrate it into the main release.

Also note that as soon as one of the forks reaches DGS blocks, its transaction will no longer be accepted by the other fork until it too reaches DGS block (if they haven't expired by then). This would become another source of differences between forks. Users really should make their choice before block 213000. Now 1.2.5 is at 211035, 1.2.5f is at 210440.

Sounds like a major clusterfuck if you ask me.

I'm sticking with running 1.2.5.  It'll hit DGS first anyway.  Most people are using 1.2.5.

Ultimately, I think the exchanges will decide.  If they move over to 1.2.5f fork, we're kind of stuck with agreeing with them or not trading on them.

I really don't know why this solution was proposed.  I think it complicates matter more than simply leaving the hacker with the NXT.  maybe I'm not understanding the technical details, but it sounds...half-assed and myopic.  No offense to you JLC - I appreciate all the work that you've put into the client, and your fast turn around and attention to this.  It's the strategy here that is sorely lacking.  What committee developed this strategy?  Was this the idea of one dev or several?
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alex0909

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #1637 on: August 16, 2014, 05:22:50 pm »

  Now 1.2.5 is at 211035, 1.2.5f is at 210440.

TO relaease the DGS fork in 2days is totally mad. It will come totally unnoticed coz of the hack and it will cause more problems. I think that we should "postpone" this release.

I don't agree. I think despite the huge loss from yesterday, we should continue with the release of the DGS. Stay united whatever happens. This hacker won't postpone work done on the platform, that would be a double win for him if his purpose is to slow nxt.

Jean-Luc whatever money you lost, we can set up a bounty, please answer JL777's demands on the API's.

Bter should use the 5M they received to reimburse all there users 10%. And agree on a tokenization + Use  BTC reserves to at least reach a 50% payback.
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eimon

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #1638 on: August 16, 2014, 05:23:05 pm »

  Now 1.2.5 is at 211035, 1.2.5f is at 210440.

To release the DGS fork in 2days is totally mad. It will come totally unnoticed coz of the hack and it will cause more problems. I think that we should "postpone" this release.

+1.

Are core devs deliberately destroying NXT??
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zuqka

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #1639 on: August 16, 2014, 05:24:09 pm »

For the love of God let's not complicate things. Even you guys that lost swallow the defeat and lets move on.
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