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Author Topic: Forgers have been faced with a choice...  (Read 284177 times)

freeworm

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #800 on: August 15, 2014, 02:20:21 pm »

forgers, we really need to upgrade to 1.2.5b to prevent to funds getting out from the hacked account.

please help us to use this version:

https://bitbucket.org/JeanLucPicard/nxt/downloads/nxt-client-1.2.5b.zip
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stdset

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #801 on: August 15, 2014, 02:20:28 pm »

I still have 45 pages left to read. So, it could be resolved by now.

But, wouldn't it be possible for the biggest forgers to inject a tx into the block chain that moves these coins to another account without needing the PK of the sending account. If all the forgers agree this is a legit transaction the coin will move.

right?

A 51% agreed transaction?
Sending funds without knowing private keys? Nothing could be worse than that. If you do this today, tomorrow they will confiscate your money because they just want to.
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notsoshifty

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #802 on: August 15, 2014, 02:20:47 pm »

For what it's worth - and given my relatively small stake in what is a 100% PoS coin, not very much - my comment from the theft eight months ago applies here:

Quote from: notsoshifty
Much as I hate the thought of someone getting away with stealing nxt, I strongly disagree with any idea about hardcoding into the client something that freezes these (or any) accounts. It is the start of a slippery slope that leads to bad places.
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4747...888

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #803 on: August 15, 2014, 02:20:57 pm »

Anyone can forge on 1.2.5b?
Getting error:
Code: [Select]
SEVERE: Error generating block nxt.NxtException$NotValidException: attempted to create a block with 262 transactions
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profitofthegods

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #804 on: August 15, 2014, 02:21:29 pm »


Cryptoworld and media will still regard it as the result of a vote by a bunch of people on a forum, not an objective/neutral blockchain (and thus trustless) ruled by mathematics.
It's not vote by a bunch of people on a forum but the stakeholder's decision. If you don't have any nxt, you can't do nothing. The forum can't decide rollback or not.
Only the stakeholder can decide.
That's the key point of POS.
I don't understand why people think the rollback will destroy nxt.
If 51% of stakeholders agree rollback, then there is nothing wrong. Because it is the POS.

Couldn't agree more. If you don't think this kind if thing should be possible, then you shouldn't own NXT because that's how it works.
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kLee

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #805 on: August 15, 2014, 02:21:46 pm »

So the thieve found only pwd for NXT funds? Weird...
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youyou

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #806 on: August 15, 2014, 02:22:01 pm »

I don't get something: if someone sells some NXT on the MGW and then withdraw the btc he bought. What happens if the blockchain is rolled back? The account of the NXT seller is recredited of the NXT he sold???
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Peter2516

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #807 on: August 15, 2014, 02:22:17 pm »


Cryptoworld and media will still regard it as the result of a vote by a bunch of people on a forum, not an objective/neutral blockchain (and thus trustless) ruled by mathematics.
It's not vote by a bunch of people on a forum but the stakeholder's decision. If you don't have any nxt, you can't do nothing. The forum can't decide rollback or not.
Only the stakeholder can decide.
That's the key point of POS.
I don't understand why people think the rollback will destroy nxt.
If 51% of stakeholders agree rollback, then there is nothing wrong. Because it is the POS.

That's the truth, but that is not how it will be remembered by the crypto-world.
NXT reputation will be hurt if we seem to 'decide' to do the rollback.
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Coradan

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #808 on: August 15, 2014, 02:23:07 pm »

I think rollback is not possible... What should happen with somebody has purchased NXT with BTC after hack?  He will lose his NXT and his BTC too...
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OnlytheTruth

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #809 on: August 15, 2014, 02:23:13 pm »

NO ROLLBACK.  Hacker already won.  Let the market decide what happens.  Means we all get some cheap NXT and we can keep on trucking forward.  In the longview, this is a fender bender, not a total replacement(in car crash terms).
You don't lost anything, so you can say NO ROLLBACK.
The 50M is not belong to bter.
And there is no way for bter to refund all the people who lost.
That means lots of people will lost much money.

what happens to the other 950 million?

I suspect some of "no roll back" guys still don't understand how fucked up it would be for NXT if the hacker holds 5% of NXT in ransom. The ecosystem business will be basically dead.

Example: He can mess with every frigging businesses in NXT asset exchange  example: buying and dumping irrationally every assets and consequently NO sane person will have anything to do with NXT AE anymore. NXT ecosystem development will basically be going to a toilet for a LONG LONG LONG time.

So yeah : roll-back : some reputation damages ; no roll-back: there will be actual and tangible damages every single day. Both choices would hurt NXT significantly but I could see rolling-back is actually better.

Think over this scenario. Hacked NXT can be laundered via NXT AE. You cannot prevent the hacker doing that except for closing down the AE exchange.
WOW the hacker may not think of this option but it is not difficult to launder 50 million NXT for 300-400 BTC and destroy NXT AE exchange in the process.

rolling it back if you want NXT ecosystem to survive.
More supply in nxt could also lead to (hyper-) inflation in asset prices. Which might bring more people AE. As nobody can predict the future. We will only know after. Biggest asset of NXT is credibility. If you as an investor can not be sure that deals are final there will be no investors.

Outsiders will have nothing to do with NXT AE assets anymore if they are inflated by hacked money. Minimal credibility will be lost if forgers unite and the majority decide to roll back. But if the issue cannot be contained, the consequence could linger for months if not years. It would be very bad for NXT if the hacked NXT's hangover continue for months. 5% of the currency is a lot and could do a lot of damages for a LONG LONG time.

What happens to Nxt credibility after roll back?

If the forges unite and the majority decides to fork, the impact on reputation would be small. I can't say for sure but people will probably understand and probably forget soon enough. But if you let the hacked 50 million NXT run unchecked, the hangover will be felt everyday for years. 
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TimmyD

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #810 on: August 15, 2014, 02:24:02 pm »

if it only affects the one transaction how is this a roll back?
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landomata

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #811 on: August 15, 2014, 02:24:13 pm »

So the thieve found only pwd for NXT funds? Weird...

STRANGE HE DIDN'T TAKE BTC TOO....

Ezravdb

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #812 on: August 15, 2014, 02:24:21 pm »

calm down and let sort things logical if possible.

we now have a tool to undo the hack.
the hacker already has BTC from bter due to panicking

so, we should 'prepare' running the new nrs but wait until it
is sure hacker breaks the deal. this is the case when:

1. the hacker is touching the btc or nxt without any message
2. the max. time window - some spare time is closing to run the new nrs

if one of this happened the new nrs should be activated.
as a result the hacker still have the btc but we, as community,
should raise a bounty to hunt him. the hacker would be indeed
very silly to risk all this just for those btc.

and btw, running the new nrs doesn't violate anything because
decentralisation isn't an end in itself but has the propose to
serve many instead minors. understanding this, the new nrs delivers
exactly the demand behind decentralisation, using common sense
by many, this is decentralisation in my definition.

important would be to handle an exact timeframe for this but as said,
it is not sure the deal is broken.

We have less than a day :/
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stdset

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #813 on: August 15, 2014, 02:24:33 pm »

freeworm, Bter is finished, realize it, and don't try to take Nxt down with you.
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lucky88888

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #814 on: August 15, 2014, 02:24:59 pm »

omg did i just saw

209886   8/16/2014 00:20:41   0   2   2   NXT-8MC8-EWER-G9RH-GLEFU
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8897013707391239174

Jacinto

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #815 on: August 15, 2014, 02:25:03 pm »

I think rollback is not possible... What should happen with somebody has purchased NXT with BTC after hack?  He will lose his NXT and his BTC too...

You are wrong Coradan. Read this:

https://nxtforum.org/nrs-releases/nrs-v1-2-5b/

Only the bter's account outgoing transactions are erased. The rest will be retransmitted without problem.
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lucky88888

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #816 on: August 15, 2014, 02:25:40 pm »

So the thieve found only pwd for NXT funds? Weird...

STRANGE HE DIDN'T TAKE BTC TOO....

i thought the hacker said he cleared 500btc from bter.
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8897013707391239174

williamevanl

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #817 on: August 15, 2014, 02:26:02 pm »

You guys are really playing with fire here... Doing a rollback, blacklisting coins, this sets a really bad precedent for NXT. It could never fully recover from having done this.
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Peter2516

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #818 on: August 15, 2014, 02:26:09 pm »

I think rollback is not possible... What should happen with somebody has purchased NXT with BTC after hack?  He will lose his NXT and his BTC too...

You are wrong Coradan. Read this:

https://nxtforum.org/nrs-releases/nrs-v1-2-5b/

Only the bter's account outgoing transactions are erased. The rest will be retransmitted without problem.

Also regular transactions that timed out will be cancelled.
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cobaltskky

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #819 on: August 15, 2014, 02:26:10 pm »

Not years. We will track him down and make him pay in some form. The nxt can be tracked. Code can be written to follow it. Exchanges can blacklist acct. Seize funds moved to them from those accts.
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