Nxt Forum

Nxt Discussion => Nxt Community News and Announcements => Topic started by: Come-from-Beyond on August 15, 2014, 08:45:06 am

Title: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on August 15, 2014, 08:45:06 am
~50 million NXT has been stolen from BTER.
The money was transferred from NXT-LSC3-VB9T-2W3V-BH7FB to NXT-8WJ7-8A2H-MBYN-3W9K4.
BTER asked Nxt community to help.

The only legit way to do it (without abusing power of developers) is to ask forgers to decide what to do:

Keep forging the current branch with 50M belonging to the thief

OR

Remove the blocks after the theft and forge another branch where 50M will belong to BTER

U still have time to roll the changes back, after 720 blocks on top it will be too late. U should try to reach Jean-Luc to get NRS version that allows to manually delete recent blocks.

PS:
Well, the rollback is cancelled. Dunno if it's good or bad coz I wanted to see what share of the stake would decide to rollback the changes. Taking into account that only small part of the nodes upgraded to 1.2.5b I can guess that only a small part agreed to play this game. But still...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: freeworm on August 15, 2014, 08:45:44 am
Update:

A new version is released. Forgers, please update to this version and help us to get the funds back!
It will only affect the transactions from the stolen account.

https://bitbucket.org/JeanLucPicard/nxt/downloads/nxt-client-1.2.5d.zip


This is the dev of Bter. Confirmed.

I am really sorry for this.
Several hours ago one of our hosting accounts was hacked and the hacker got 50m NXT from this server.
It's totally our fault and we are trying our best to cover all the loss.
However 50m nxt is huge for us, we cannot afford it at the moment.

All the nxt is till in his address at

http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=ac&ac=1244396688755618309


We are trying to get help from the dev and the community to  agree to rollback the blockchain to 3-4 hours ago.
We are going to cover all the loss due the rollback.

Best,
Lin @ Bter
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: wesley on August 15, 2014, 08:48:34 am
We need everyone to be online today and ready for forging when a new version is released.

Note: I take no stance in this, community decides on what to do..
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on August 15, 2014, 08:51:26 am
We need everyone to be online today and ready for forging when a new version is released.

60-70% (51% + some more to outpace current branch) of forging power should be enough, coz 90% protection is not active yet.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: qbd1313 on August 15, 2014, 08:52:40 am
let us do it,give back to bter
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: freeworm on August 15, 2014, 08:53:39 am
We need everyone to be online today and ready for forging when a new version is released.

We are going to keep our cold wallet forging all though it's a small portion.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Cassius on August 15, 2014, 08:54:10 am
I say do it.
This can't be a long-term solution - we won't be able to keep doing this. But for now lets make use of the ability.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: freeworm on August 15, 2014, 08:54:57 am
let us do it,give back to bter

Thanks  lot for your support! I remember you gave us good suggestions when we were processing Klee's stolen funds.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: nexern on August 15, 2014, 08:54:59 am
yes, rewind.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 08:55:17 am
My funds were on there!
Feel so stupid now :(
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: longzai1988 on August 15, 2014, 08:56:37 am
Maybe broadcast an email to users that we are facing this issue?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Cassius on August 15, 2014, 08:57:11 am
Maybe broadcast an email to users that we are facing this issue?

Yes - good idea, forum message to everyone.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Squeaker on August 15, 2014, 08:57:46 am
Do we have any idea what other transactions are going to be impacted by this move?

=squeak=
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 08:58:49 am
I remember MintPal did the same with Vericoin
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Damelon on August 15, 2014, 09:00:28 am
Maybe broadcast an email to users that we are facing this issue?

Yes - good idea, forum message to everyone.

Done!

People, we have a choice here, as stated in the OP!

WE need to decide!

CfB wants to hear whether we should do a rollback or solve this with forging!

Devs can do nothing without community support and permission.

Please post here what you want!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: lezin on August 15, 2014, 09:02:18 am
I'am in, please post the version and the instruction here ...
I just have 100 000 NXT but my  server is the fifth in weigth on peerexplorer... I hope it will help a bit :)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: yassin54 on August 15, 2014, 09:02:42 am
Maybe broadcast an email to users that we are facing this issue?

Yes - good idea, forum message to everyone.

Done!

People, we have a choice here, as stated in the OP!

WE need to decide!

CfB wants to hear whether we should do a rollback or solve this with forging!

Devs can do nothing without community support and permission.

Please post here what you want!

i agree  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: swartzfeger on August 15, 2014, 09:02:56 am
Rollback.

And bter needs to ensure us the problem has been addressed and what's being done to avoid similar situations in the future.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: ceric35 on August 15, 2014, 09:03:32 am
This is a hard choice.
We can't relly rewrite the past in a decentralized system.

But we still have the time. So i'm in too.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: qbd1313 on August 15, 2014, 09:04:01 am
 we should do a rollback we have no choice..
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: abuelau on August 15, 2014, 09:04:55 am
Roll back of course. Once the new version is out I will update my nodes.

Does only forging count or public nodes without anyone forging also help?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: longzai1988 on August 15, 2014, 09:05:09 am
I vote for a rollback and some of the stolen fund should goes to nxt fund.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Sebastien256 on August 15, 2014, 09:05:14 am
If bter cover the lost of roll back then i'm fine with that. How is it plan to pay the lost from the roll back?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: jones on August 15, 2014, 09:05:31 am
So much trouble in NXT land, with the eventual but still far away release of the DGS, the compatability issues, the organization/community debates, and now this.

I say we need to do it, for the good of the people investing in NXT and to show that hackers have no ground against us

And just so people know, the person that stole the money sent the message 'hi' to the NXTRA faucet the donated 20 NXT to it through stolen funds. Very strange behavior, I thought it was funny.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 09:05:54 am
we should do a rollback we have no choice..

Yes please!

This would affect lots of medium to small fishes..

Rollback please, I thank you all if it works
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: abuelau on August 15, 2014, 09:06:15 am
The thief just registered an alias "TheSir" 3 hours ago: http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/aliases.php?account=1244396688755618309
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: firefighter on August 15, 2014, 09:06:32 am
~50 million NXT has been stolen from BTER.
The money was transferred from NXT-LSC3-VB9T-2W3V-BH7FB to NXT-8WJ7-8A2H-MBYN-3W9K4.
BTER asked Nxt community to help.

The only legit way to do it (without abusing power of developers) is to ask forgers to decide what to do:

Keep forging the current branch with 50M belonging to the thief

OR

Remove the blocks after the theft and forge another branch where 50M will belong to BTER

U still have time to roll the changes back, after 720 blocks on top it will be too late. U should try to reach Jean-Luc to get NRS version that allows to manually delete recent blocks.

I think it is good to stop thiefs. But this way you ask for should be a "one time solution" otherwise trust in nxt will get destroyed.
By the way are nxt block not like bitcoins blocks ? You can't remove one block out of a chain without completly redo the whole blocks afterwards.

BTW After done one time -> crackers will find a solution to fix this problem. Quick send to other marketplace, switch to bitcoins and transfer them out of market place (Just a Quick though).

That bter got stolen 50M is not a good sign for there security at all :-/
BTW does Account Control or Multisig already exists ?

FireF

PS
I don't believe that you mange it, to rewind things, if you Do. I believe the nxt community is really powerfull :-)




 
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: ThomasVeil on August 15, 2014, 09:07:00 am
I guess if all the big forgers agree that it's the right thing - then it is the right thing.
I have my nxt all leased out (to the charity hub), so can't take action. But I'm with whatever the owner does.

A problem might be other exchanges, that rely on the old blockchain, and now might have double-nxt?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: WolfofCrypto on August 15, 2014, 09:07:08 am
Was any other cryptos stolen by the hacker
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Meizirkki on August 15, 2014, 09:08:29 am
If it is the communitys choise to roll back I'm in. How about someone sets up an Account to which we all lease our power to, who can revert it alone? nevermind.

Other exchanged need to be informed or else the thirf can dump
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Graviton on August 15, 2014, 09:09:06 am
Roll back.

Vote: https://nxtforum.org/news-and-announcements/roll-back-bter-hack-of-50m-nxt/

BTER shall compensate other exchangers' losses, if any.

(DGEX will not likely lose anything and does not have such interest in this opinion).
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: bitcoinpaul on August 15, 2014, 09:09:54 am
Marketing disaster. No matter what happens now.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: WolfofCrypto on August 15, 2014, 09:10:23 am
Contact the exchanges ask them to block nxt trades and leave only 1 open that way the hacker has only 1 road
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: marcus03 on August 15, 2014, 09:10:46 am
+1 on rollback
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: lezin on August 15, 2014, 09:11:12 am
Marketing disaster. No matter what happens now.

I agree, in all cases this is a disaster for the NXT image...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: NxtSwe on August 15, 2014, 09:11:15 am
Doing a roll back has consequenses, not only the 50'000'000 will be rolled back, but ALL OTHER transactions as well (I assume).
I really feel for BTER, I do, but is there any way to roll back just this single transactions, and not the other ones?

If there isn't I'm not so sure it is a good idea.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: stone on August 15, 2014, 09:11:43 am
rollback it, there is no other better way to save bter, but also save the nxt.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Cassius on August 15, 2014, 09:11:55 am
Contact the exchanges ask them to block nxt trades and leave only 1 open that way the hacker has only 1 road

2 roads. They can return the NXT to BTER or leave it where it is, so no one else can get it. Best to rollback if possible.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: valarmg on August 15, 2014, 09:12:17 am
The thief just registered an alias "TheSir" 3 hours ago: http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/aliases.php?account=1244396688755618309



Alternative solution. Someone contact the thief, tell him to return the vast majority, and we won't do a rollback.

Who knows, maybe it's a whitehat thief who intends to return the money.

Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: devphp on August 15, 2014, 09:12:39 am
If it's rolled back, the idea of decentralization is done for. It will be like viacoin. I vote DO NOT roll back, unless it's a NXT bug of course. All NXT has been standing for is done for if rollback is done. Besides, there have been multiple warnings not to keep funds at exchanges.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: chanc3r on August 15, 2014, 09:12:45 am
If we should do this... my stake is leased to Forky's pool so I need to know the pool will go along with this, or the best I can do is to move my stake so it cannot contribute to the wrong chain...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 09:12:50 am
Marketing disaster. No matter what happens now.

I agree, in all cases this is a disaster for the NXT image...

Like more for BTER?

Every attention is good.
If we fix this together then nothing will happen imo
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Vega on August 15, 2014, 09:12:59 am
First lets just ask the thief nicely to give back the NXT they stole. No way they can keep it anyway.
When this fails I'm in favor of a roll back, but this has to be a one time solution.

Also, how about we talk about that 0.5% withdraw fee Bter?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: galeki on August 15, 2014, 09:13:19 am
wow, I see the big transfer when I got up, just thought that was bter changing his deposit address...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: jones on August 15, 2014, 09:13:28 am
I can see the multigateway being a easy way out for hackers like these, can someone keep an eye out for a transaction through that.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on August 15, 2014, 09:13:51 am
CfB wants to hear whether we should do a rollback or solve this with forging!

No, I just state that forgers have a choice. No need to come to a consensus, those who think that blockchain ought to be rewritten need just do it and hope that majority of the stake will do the same.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Meizirkki on August 15, 2014, 09:13:57 am
How about blacklisting the coins? Rollback will indeed have huge consequences.


Is it possible to release a version of client that allows negative nxt to be sent, then call BCNext to send negative nxt from genesis to hacker? ;D
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 09:14:17 am
Evert NXT/BTC out there needs to be on hold!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Damelon on August 15, 2014, 09:14:32 am
Please people, before you yell "ROLLBACK", consider:

a) BTER has already posted they will refund
b) consider ALL consequences of a rollback! ALL transactions by EVERYONE will be undone!

I know this is extremely shocking, but let's look at this within the time we have, which is about 600 blocks.

Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: freeworm on August 15, 2014, 09:14:50 am
Rollback.

And bter needs to ensure us the problem has been addressed and what's being done to avoid similar situations in the future.

Yes we have identified the issue.
We have all our email, dropbox etc protected by 2-factor auth from beginning but had this hosting account left.
That's why the hacker can get into the hosting account.
It's totally our fault.
We have already changed all passwords and enabled the 2-factor auth.

Thanks a lot for your support!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: yassin54 on August 15, 2014, 09:15:09 am
there have been multiple warnings not to keep funds at exchanges.

+1  8) 8)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Jacinto on August 15, 2014, 09:15:13 am
ROLLBACK pls.

Lots of my money were there  :-[

The rest was leased to FrokedChain's pool.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: ThomasVeil on August 15, 2014, 09:15:18 am
Marketing disaster. No matter what happens now.

I agree, in all cases this is a disaster for the NXT image...

Not positive for sure. But if this is not just a decision by the developer (as it was in the Viacoin case) but rather by the majority of forgers, then I think it's still the Proof of Stake principle at work.
So maybe not a disaster.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: CryptKeeper on August 15, 2014, 09:15:20 am
I vote for a rollback.

Contacted forkedchain about it, because he manages a lot of hallmarked nodes, but I think he is on vacation.  :(
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 09:15:41 am
Rollback.

And bter needs to ensure us the problem has been addressed and what's being done to avoid similar situations in the future.

Yes we have identified the issue.
We have all our email, dropbox etc protected by 2-factor auth from beginning but had this hosting account left.
That's why the hacker can get into the hosting account.
It's totally our fault.
We have already changed all passwords and enabled the 2-factor auth.

Thanks a lot for your support!

Wow...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on August 15, 2014, 09:15:47 am
We can't relly rewrite the past in a decentralized system.

We can do it legally within 720-block frame. But the time is passing...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Damelon on August 15, 2014, 09:15:51 am
CfB wants to hear whether we should do a rollback or solve this with forging!

No, I just state that forgers have a choice. No need to come to a consensus, those who think that blockchain ought to be rewritten need just do it and hope that majority of the stake will do the same.

Thanks for clarifying this. I misunderstood your post then.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: abuelau on August 15, 2014, 09:15:55 am
Marketing disaster. No matter what happens now.

I agree, in all cases this is a disaster for the NXT image...

Well the theft was not NXT's fault... it could happen with any coin. But the roll-back shows that a few people have the power to undo transactions so I am not sure about how this will look like...  but keep in mind we can only do this before the 1440 confirmation period... which makes sense. So I don't think it's that bad.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: BitcoinForumator on August 15, 2014, 09:16:09 am
I err on the side of No rollback. Sorry but the mistake should be paid by Bter.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: LocoMB on August 15, 2014, 09:16:36 am
.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: WolfofCrypto on August 15, 2014, 09:18:40 am

I agreed if u roll back then it proves blockchain can be played with and nxt will b finished like I sed. Get the exchanges to block nxt trades make the hacketvsweat it out  every1  will suffer but it will kill time to find a solution opposed to rolling back the chain  this is a attack this could b the ultimate ploy to cripple nxt at the end of the day it's the exchange not nxt platform
If it's rolled back, the idea of decentralization is done for. It will be like viacoin. I vote DO NOT roll back, unless it's a NXT bug of course. All NXT has been standing for is done for if rollback is done. Besides, there have been multiple warnings not to keep funds at exchanges.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 09:18:46 am
I vote for ROLLBACK. It IS BTers fault no doubt. But it shows that the world of crypto is not that lawless as some would like to make it appear.

Also, BTer will owe NXT BIGTIME!  ;D

0% fees yallll
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: yassin54 on August 15, 2014, 09:19:48 am
Marketing disaster. No matter what happens now.

I agree, in all cases this is a disaster for the NXT image...

Not positive for sure. But if this is not just a decision by the developer (as it was in the Viacoin case) but rather by the majority of forgers, then I think it's still the Proof of Stake principle at work.
So maybe not a disaster.

many people watching us ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: jones on August 15, 2014, 09:19:55 am
There should be a way to log all of the transactions that have occured since the 50'000'000 break in, we can have the list arbitrarily messaged to each person who made a transaction in this time.

I think bter would be more than happy to cover the costs of this once their moneys back.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: martismartis on August 15, 2014, 09:20:31 am
Hacker know hacked account passphrase. How rollback will solve this problem?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: TimmyD on August 15, 2014, 09:20:42 am
FFS
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 09:21:15 am
FFS

:(
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: NxtSwe on August 15, 2014, 09:21:25 am
Please people, before you yell "ROLLBACK", consider:

a) BTER has already posted they will refund
b) consider ALL consequences of a rollback! ALL transactions by EVERYONE will be undone!

I know this is extremely shocking, but let's look at this within the time we have, which is about 600 blocks.

There will be people who do not know about this thread, who have made transactions that will be rolled back.
Until someone presents a solution to what will happen to those transactions I vote against a rollback.

And another thing, all exchanges should not accept any NXT until there is a decision about this matter. A shoutout to BTER (and other exchanges): if you accept NXT deposits now, someone might trade it for BTC and withdraw, and then you'll have to convince the BTC community to do a rollback also.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: marcus03 on August 15, 2014, 09:22:17 am
50 Mio NXt is 1'764'650 US$. I doubt Bter will be able to pay for this.

24 hour trade volume is 55'000 US$ (with most of it on bter actually). Even if bter would need to compensate all other exchanges, it would be much cheaper.

Keep Bter in business for our sake!

Rolback and do it fast, to minimize the consequences.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: abuelau on August 15, 2014, 09:22:38 am
Hacker just posted a message:

http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=737607765281301757

Message: We can trade these NXT for some bitcoins to make life easier for you, and me.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Meizirkki on August 15, 2014, 09:23:07 am
Reverting the chain is not the end of NXT, it is a display of power and will by the community.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: GoldDealer on August 15, 2014, 09:24:02 am
I vote for rollback!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: jones on August 15, 2014, 09:24:21 am
Hacker just posted a message:

http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=737607765281301757

Message: We can trade these NXT for some bitcoins to make life easier for you, and me.

This guys just taunting us, can we please revert it as soon as possible
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: antanst on August 15, 2014, 09:25:03 am
~50 million NXT has been stolen from BTER.
The money was transferred from NXT-LSC3-VB9T-2W3V-BH7FB to NXT-8WJ7-8A2H-MBYN-3W9K4.
BTER asked Nxt community to help.

Do we have an official announcement from BTER on this?

Quote
The only legit way to do it (without abusing power of developers) is to ask forgers to decide what to do:

Sorry, that's not "legit" in my book. Imagine if the Bitcoin pools suddenly decided to "rollback" transactions when MtGox was hacked. Do you really want me to get into more details into how damaging such a move will be for NXT's credibility?

Quote
U still have time to roll the changes back, after 720 blocks on top it will be too late. U should try to reach Jean-Luc to get NRS version that allows to manually delete recent blocks.

Right, just contact J-L. Who cares about the other transactions that will be lost, just collateral damage...

This is a BTER issue, and a very unfortunate one. They should focus on finding the thief, and refunding their customers. (I also had a small amount of NXT's in there.)

That's all there is to it.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: valarmg on August 15, 2014, 09:25:26 am
Hacker know hacked account passphrase. How rollback will solve this problem?

I guess Bter will immediately sweep the funds to a new account on the first block of the forked chain.

I vote someone contact the thief and get him to return most of the funds (otherwise rollback and he gets nothing). Has anyone tried contacting him via AM? Bter, maybe post a new account for thief to send funds back to.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: yassin54 on August 15, 2014, 09:25:34 am
Hacker just posted a message:

http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=737607765281301757

Message: We can trade these NXT for some bitcoins to make life easier for you, and me.

it saves time

let's go  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Cassius on August 15, 2014, 09:25:44 am
Hacker just posted a message:

http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=737607765281301757

Message: We can trade these NXT for some bitcoins to make life easier for you, and me.

Meaning what, exactly?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: devphp on August 15, 2014, 09:25:47 am
Reverting the chain is not the end of NXT, it is a display of power and will by the community.

No, it's exactly the end of the social experiment called NXT and it will mean humans need centralized hand-holding, it means the experiment has failed.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Vega on August 15, 2014, 09:26:18 am

This guys just taunting us, can we please revert it as soon as possible

Paying of the thief would be the best soution by far.
But it needs to happen soon, it may be a stalling tactic.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Fatih87SK on August 15, 2014, 09:26:27 am
We can't relly rewrite the past in a decentralized system.

We can do it legally within 720-block frame. But the time is passing...

Ok. We have to act fast then.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Damelon on August 15, 2014, 09:27:29 am
I want to go on record as being against a rollback, painful though it may be.

Hypothetical situation:

- I have done a BIG business deal and made a killing.
- Then this happens and we decide to do a roll back
- I lose ALL my business and my partner decides to renege on the deal because of this.
- BOOM, we're completely done.

Painful as it is, we stand to lose all credibility as a platform. We cannot roll back.

Bter has already stated that this is their mishap. This is business risk.

I like Bter, I really do. They have been great on several occasions. But this, we just cannot do, for any reason.

We need to get out of panic mode and see the larger picture here.
Do NOT think with your wallets! Please think of the larger picture.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Meizirkki on August 15, 2014, 09:27:39 am
Reverting the chain is not the end of NXT, it is a display of power and will by the community.

No, it's exactly the end of the social experiment called NXT and it will mean humans need centralized hand-holding, it means the experiment has failed.
Please elaborate. I haven't chose a side yet.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: jones on August 15, 2014, 09:27:50 am
Hacker just posted a message:

http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=737607765281301757

Message: We can trade these NXT for some bitcoins to make life easier for you, and me.

And once again even the hackers don't seem to realize that these messages aren't encrypted yet and can be read publicly.  ;D
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Neomadra on August 15, 2014, 09:28:22 am
This is so fucking me up. I don't have any NXT on Bter but all these hacking incident are so exhausting. A rollback will destroy Nxt's image and trust. On the other hand the hacker could dump the NXT and kill it's price for a long time. I still don't understand why people have larger amounts on exchanges after Gox (remember: Largest theft ever happenend in history, no consequences, nothing learning) and I also don't understand why businesses have troubles to secure an account worth 2M$.
To be honest I'm against a rollback but I leased my account to Chucks charity hub and I'll agree with whatever he decides.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Graviton on August 15, 2014, 09:28:42 am
Quote
those who think that blockchain ought to be rewritten need just do it

How to do it, please?

DGEX can help the decision by forging with 29 million NXT.

It does not matter whether BTER pays for it or not, NXT will be destroyed by the 50 Million slow dump in the following months.

Rolling back has a PR advantage of strong community capable of centralized decisions. Anything over 50% voted should roll back.

It would not harm us to see BTER go out of business, still strongly for rollback.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Fatih87SK on August 15, 2014, 09:30:06 am
Quote
those who think that blockchain ought to be rewritten need just do it

How to do it, please?

DGEX can help the decision by forging with 29 million NXT.

It does not matter whether BTER pays for it or not, NXT will be destroyed by the 50 Million slow dump in the following months.

Rolling back has a PR advantage of strong community capable of centralized decisions. Anything over 50% voted should roll back.

It would not harm us to see BTER go out of business, still strongly for rollback.

+1

I don't have NXT there as well.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: jd1959 on August 15, 2014, 09:30:22 am
Bter is at fault IMHO exchanges are staking coins.........I stuffed my nxt password cost me heaps ......I just have to live with it......so should they

Jon
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Vega on August 15, 2014, 09:30:27 am
Rollback would cause some problems.
For example I sent 100k+ to BTER today, it would be rolled back. However I already sold around 50k. What will happen? Bter could roll back my trade, (bad,bad idea), or freeze my account until I send the transaction again.
Lots of work, confusion and potential problems.

Clusterfuck.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Cassius on August 15, 2014, 09:30:38 am
Either way those 50m coins cannot be allowed to hit another exchange if it's avoidable.
Is it possible to stop them going through MGW?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: devphp on August 15, 2014, 09:30:43 am
NXT will be destroyed by the 50 Million slow dump in the following months.

No, it will not be destroyed. On the contrary, if a rollback is done, many people will sell, because all they stood for investing in NXT will have failed.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: EvilDave on August 15, 2014, 09:30:51 am
WAIT ON THE ROLLBACK
Its a bad option, but all I'm seeing are bad options.

We can shutdown the hacker if needed, but lets talk to the bastard first.
I suggest letting him walk with 10%, if BTER can take the hit
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: yassin54 on August 15, 2014, 09:30:56 am
I want to go on record as being against a rollback, painful though it may be.

Hypothetical situation:

- I have done a BIG business deal and made a killing.
- Then this happens and we decide to do a roll back
- I lose ALL my business and my partner decides to renege on the deal because of this.
- BOOM, we're completely done.

Painful as it is, we stand to lose all credibility as a platform. We cannot roll back.

Bter has already stated that this is their mishap. This is business risk.

I like Bter, I really do. They have been great on several occasions. But this, we just cannot do, for any reason.

We need to get out of panic mode and see the larger picture here.
Do NOT think with your wallets! Please think of the larger picture.

ok no problem
but
it is the first and last time

sorry english not good  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: mikesbmw on August 15, 2014, 09:31:09 am
Bad precedent guys... I loose 20k but say no to this
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: BitcoinForumator on August 15, 2014, 09:31:51 am
No rollback.

Let Bter pay BTC to the thief, mistake costs.

Although I hate the idea of the thief getting away with it.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Cassius on August 15, 2014, 09:32:08 am
WAIT ON THE ROLLBACK
Its a bad option, but all I'm seeing are bad options.

We can shutdown the hacker if needed, but lets talk to the bastard first.
I suggest letting him walk with 10%, if BTER can take the hit

Right. We're talking least-worst here. This is least-worst. Let's start there and see what our options are.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: wert on August 15, 2014, 09:32:28 am
this is crazy
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: devphp on August 15, 2014, 09:32:34 am
If it happens once, all the crypto community will say NXT is centralized like a central bank and it will happen again, and they will be 100% right about this.
Many NXTers will go back to Bitcoin and forget this failure called NXT.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Graviton on August 15, 2014, 09:32:46 am
Quote
- I have done a BIG business deal and made a killing.
- Then this happens and we decide to do a roll back
- I lose ALL my business and my partner decides to renege on the deal because of this.

Hypothetical. There is no such circumstances, just relatively small transactions. This is a one off deal, not a questions of principle.

BTER will compensate for the mess or they will be boycotten by everyone.

50 million NXT extra left for the market is a huge liability that has a high risk of twisting the market beyond recovery.

Quote
Let Bter pay BTC to the thief, mistake costs.

BTER is not able to do that, let alone buy extra 50M dump back from market.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: abuelau on August 15, 2014, 09:33:13 am
So here's a proposal for the hacker: He sends 80% (40M) back to bter and we don't roll back. How about this?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: neozaru on August 15, 2014, 09:33:47 am
I don't understand. Is this a bug of NXT system ? If yes, a rollback could be legit. If not, a rollback doesn't make sense.

From what I know :



Tell me if I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: TimmyD on August 15, 2014, 09:34:52 am
99% of crypto investors only care for proffit not decentralization. there is about a handful of people on this forum daily who truly care for decentralization
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: valarmg on August 15, 2014, 09:35:05 am
So here's a proposal for the hacker: He sends 80% (40M) back to bter and we don't roll back. How about this?

Yes!!!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Damelon on August 15, 2014, 09:35:43 am
I don't understand. Is this a bug of NXT system ?

No, this was a hack on Bter's servers. Not a hack on Nxt.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Sebastien256 on August 15, 2014, 09:36:20 am
I don't understand. Is this a bug of NXT system ? If yes, a rollback could be legit. If not, a rollback doesn't make sense.

From what I know :

  • NXT is a decentralized system/consensus which provides trust
  • The consensus ensures that transactions have been DONE and can't be cancelled
  • The thief was done in a centralized system (BTER). To me, that's not an NXT problem.
  • Even if n-1 user agree for a rollback, the 1 remaining user could have legit transaction cancelled. Where is the trust ?


Tell me if I'm wrong.

finally I think a roll back is not a good idea. Legit transaction should not be cancelled.
I do not see bter explain how he plans to pay for the rollback.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: GoldDealer on August 15, 2014, 09:36:37 am
Imagine the price after this prick will try to sell the stolen coins... that will be end of NXT I believe
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Meizirkki on August 15, 2014, 09:36:48 am
Apparently C-f-B and Wesleyh are willing to do this, aren't they? Why?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: ThomasVeil on August 15, 2014, 09:36:54 am
Please people, before you yell "ROLLBACK", consider:

a) BTER has already posted they will refund
b) consider ALL consequences of a rollback! ALL transactions by EVERYONE will be undone!

I know this is extremely shocking, but let's look at this within the time we have, which is about 600 blocks.

a) refund what? For I understood from their post, they can't afford 50 million in refund. So if at all, they would refund lost transactions in case of rollback. I might be wrong on that.
b) Multigateway is at risk. Did jl777 chime in on this?
Otherwise I can't think of so much, since it's mostly intra NXT trading going on. Were there huge transactions?

600 blocks is not long either - we need the majority of forgers to switch.
CharityHub and the Forkchains-hub - I think those are the biggest. If they're on vacation and not able to do it, pulling it off would be a problem.
All big accounts should be informed. GLEFU and the big 47-8888 account (don't remember the number exactly).

I do see your points though. But: If we don't do it now, the rollback risk you're describing is still there. If you say it's the killer argument against businesses using NXT, then you basically say that's the killer argument against PoS.
I'm not 100% decided on this. Tending to rollback because it's democratically decided.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: slothbag on August 15, 2014, 09:37:02 am
Decentralized doesn't mean we can't change the rules, it just means we need consensus for something to take place which is the way it should be.

Luckily nxt is small enough that we can make this call and be pretty sure everyone knows what's happening..

How will the other exchanges handle a rollback? I assume it will muck up their books?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: BitcoinForumator on August 15, 2014, 09:37:09 am
this is crazy

and here's my number, so call me maybe.

8395527970800761822
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: yassin54 on August 15, 2014, 09:37:22 am
how much block Now?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Darkhorse on August 15, 2014, 09:37:51 am
WAIT ON THE ROLLBACK
Its a bad option, but all I'm seeing are bad options.

We can shutdown the hacker if needed, but lets talk to the bastard first.
I suggest letting him walk with 10%, if BTER can take the hit

+1
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: jd1959 on August 15, 2014, 09:38:22 am
So here's a proposal for the hacker: He sends 80% (40M) back to bter and we don't roll back. How about this?
You don't negotiate with terrorists.....I wouldn't be surprised to find government behind it >:(
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: maddy83 on August 15, 2014, 09:39:01 am
So here's a proposal for the hacker: He sends 80% (40M) back to bter and we don't roll back. How about this?

I like this idea. Whatever % he agrees to, if it is reasonable, this is the best solution.

Or maybe the hacker returns all NXT, but Bter pays him 10% of the value in BTC, or something like that. Someone probably needs to do an escrow on this too?

It's not fun to negotiate with a thief, but we have to select the best solution for NXT long term.

I don't know how we "talk with him" though, as he probably wants to stay anonymous. I am sure he is reading this forum.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: shin on August 15, 2014, 09:39:22 am
I say do it.
This can't be a long-term solution - we won't be able to keep doing this. But for now lets make use of the ability.
I couldn't agree more. Do the rollback..QUICK (before it's no longer an option)! DO NOT NEGOTIATE WITH THE THIEF! Leave no options for the thief. Wrongdoers should be punished, not awarded.

AND PLEASE, for the sake of everything, come up with a better security resolution for NXT platform!
Where will NXT be heading to if one of, if not THE, BIGGEST player of NXT can be single-handedly 'killed' in one hack?! Accidents happen, people make mistakes, people are stupid and careless, I get it. But can NXT platform at least make it NOT THAT EASY and favourable for thieves to break into and get away with a fortune? This is so wrong.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: GoldDealer on August 15, 2014, 09:39:30 am
Rollback is not so great option, but no rollback will be worst... Damn, how they could store all these funds on hot wallet...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Graviton on August 15, 2014, 09:39:39 am
CfB, please describe in detail how to forge a rollback.

Make the decision technically available for those who wish to support that please.

There is not even a vote needed. Forgers can vote by taking action.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: devphp on August 15, 2014, 09:39:57 am
Exchanges must not accept deposit of funds from the hacker's address, it's easy to track. No dumping will take place then.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Kevinrasf on August 15, 2014, 09:40:12 am
Indeed do what they want and rollback.

Always saddens me to read these hacker do not care stealing money from people.

Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: abuelau on August 15, 2014, 09:40:35 am
So here's a proposal for the hacker: He sends 80% (40M) back to bter and we don't roll back. How about this?
Yes!!!

This is the best option. If the hacker stays with 50M, his NXT won't be worth anything either way (no matter if we rollback or not). This way everyone wins. It wasn't NXT fault anyway, so our image should not be damaged.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: galeki on August 15, 2014, 09:40:40 am
I vote for NO Rollback, bter must pay for it. 50mio NXT is not big money for a exchange and bter must learn the lesson.

If we rollback now, how about another exchange got hacked tomorrow, rollback again?

What about ber got hacked and just losing 50,000, probably there is no rollback right? So we rollback now just because 50mio is big money?

It is not we are deciding the 50mio, it is the 50mio money is deciding us.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: jones on August 15, 2014, 09:40:45 am
We are faced with a large ethical dilemna.

So we either cater to the individual, BTER, and wipe out a few other transactions in the process.
Or, we tell BTER to take the hit, and try to track down the money using other means.

In the first option, NXT could lose credibility for rolling back, or be praised for using technology to solve the error.
In the second, NXT will take a large economical hit because of the slow sell of all the 50'000'000 NXT.

Can we just tell the hacker to hodl?  ;D
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: profitofthegods on August 15, 2014, 09:40:52 am
I don't have enough NXT to make any difference but for what its worth I vote for rollback.

People saying that rollback would be a big blow to decentralization - nowhere in the definition of decentralization does it say that it is against cooperation. If someone steals cash nobody can do anything about it - the ability for a community to cooperate against theives to stop them profiting is a great feature!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: antanst on August 15, 2014, 09:41:46 am
Quote
- I have done a BIG business deal and made a killing.
- Then this happens and we decide to do a roll back
- I lose ALL my business and my partner decides to renege on the deal because of this.

Hypothetical. There is no such circumstances, just relatively small transactions. This is a one off deal, not a questions of principle.

No, it's a question of principle as well, and a very important one as well.

Quote
BTER will compensate for the mess or they will be boycotten by everyone.

50 million NXT extra left for the market is a huge liability that has a high risk of twisting the market beyond recovery.

A rollback will have even greater repercussions and will make a huge damage on NXT's credibility.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Peter2516 on August 15, 2014, 09:42:03 am
I want to go on record as being against a rollback, painful though it may be.

Hypothetical situation:

- I have done a BIG business deal and made a killing.
- Then this happens and we decide to do a roll back
- I lose ALL my business and my partner decides to renege on the deal because of this.
- BOOM, we're completely done.

Painful as it is, we stand to lose all credibility as a platform. We cannot roll back.

Bter has already stated that this is their mishap. This is business risk.

I like Bter, I really do. They have been great on several occasions. But this, we just cannot do, for any reason.

We need to get out of panic mode and see the larger picture here.
Do NOT think with your wallets! Please think of the larger picture.

I tend to agree with this...
NXT wants to be a serious platform, used by businesses. We can't act like a hobby/community-project. It's the principle that counts, we need to take the 50M hit.
What would happen next time? All DGS transactions invalidated?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: devphp on August 15, 2014, 09:42:43 am
Just create a hall of shame thread where you put addresses of all hackers, so that exchanges can implement measures not to accept funds from those addresses. It won't make much sense to steal then. And the hacker could return most of the stolen funds.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: cc001 on August 15, 2014, 09:43:35 am
I want to go on record as being against a rollback, painful though it may be.

Hypothetical situation:

- I have done a BIG business deal and made a killing.
- Then this happens and we decide to do a roll back
- I lose ALL my business and my partner decides to renege on the deal because of this.
- BOOM, we're completely done.

Painful as it is, we stand to lose all credibility as a platform. We cannot roll back.

Bter has already stated that this is their mishap. This is business risk.

I like Bter, I really do. They have been great on several occasions. But this, we just cannot do, for any reason.

We need to get out of panic mode and see the larger picture here.
Do NOT think with your wallets! Please think of the larger picture.

I totally agree with that
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: BitcoinForumator on August 15, 2014, 09:43:56 am
How and why the fuck does an exchange have all of the money in ONE wallet.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Neomadra on August 15, 2014, 09:44:14 am
Exchanges must not accept deposit of funds from the hacker's address, it's easy to track. No dumping will take place then.

This or a 10% deal with the hacker, if he agrees.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: LastBattle on August 15, 2014, 09:44:19 am
Okay, I've just started my NXT client. 290k NXT here, every little forging power counts right? :D
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: valarmg on August 15, 2014, 09:44:55 am
So here's a proposal for the hacker: He sends 80% (40M) back to bter and we don't roll back. How about this?

I like this idea. Whatever % he agrees to, if it is reasonable, this is the best solution.

Or maybe the hacker returns all NXT, but Bter pays him 10% of the value in BTC, or something like that. Someone probably needs to do an escrow on this too?

It's not fun to negotiate with a thief, but we have to select the best solution for NXT long term.

I don't know how we "talk with him" though, as he probably wants to stay anonymous. I am sure he is reading this forum.
Via AM

This message was just sent: "Hi, I'm just a observer (Had no deposits on Bter) and wanted to inform you that Forger are going to do a rollback. Could you please send the NXT send back and keep 5M for yourself? This incident will hurt Nxt's image extremely so your NXT won't be worth anything, if you don't send them back. No exchange will accept deposits from your account. So please be smart, send them back and keep 5M for yourself. Prevent with that a rollback and help building Nxt for a new, decentralized future. If you used you abilities to do so instead of hacking, you c"
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: stryker on August 15, 2014, 09:45:10 am
I want to go on record as being against a rollback, painful though it may be.

Hypothetical situation:

- I have done a BIG business deal and made a killing.
- Then this happens and we decide to do a roll back
- I lose ALL my business and my partner decides to renege on the deal because of this.
- BOOM, we're completely done.

Painful as it is, we stand to lose all credibility as a platform. We cannot roll back.

Bter has already stated that this is their mishap. This is business risk.

I like Bter, I really do. They have been great on several occasions. But this, we just cannot do, for any reason.

We need to get out of panic mode and see the larger picture here.
Do NOT think with your wallets! Please think of the larger picture.

I totally agree with that

Sorry but I'm with that too.... a blockchain where roll-backs are even possible has no credibility
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: swartzfeger on August 15, 2014, 09:45:29 am
How and why the fuck does an exchange have all of the money in ONE wallet.


With no 2FA.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: jones on August 15, 2014, 09:46:07 am
An AM from an account named "Peter Griffen":

Code: [Select]
Hi, I'm just a observer (Had no deposits on Bter) and wanted to inform you that Forger are going to do a rollback. Could you please send the NXT send back and keep 5M for yourself? This incident will hurt Nxt's image extremely so your NXT won't be worth anything, if you don't sen d them back. No exchange will accept deposits from your account. So pl ease be smart, send them back and keep 5M for yourself. Prevent with t hat a rollback and help building Nxt for a new, decentralized future. If you used you abilities to do so instead of hacking, you could help to make THE decentralized crypto in the future. Your NXT's will be wor th millions. But if you don't relent it will probably kill Nxt. Please do something good, not evil. Please resuscitate the faith in humanity . kind regards.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: bgcaffe on August 15, 2014, 09:46:21 am
I vote for a rollback, right now its the decision that gives the most benefit to all users and thus is the greater good. First just letting this hacker get away with it is wrong, second it will totally crash the NXT price.

Its a good lesson for people to stop using exchanges and move to decentralized exchange systems, however to let the thief benefit from this for me is not worth it. It will just promote more hacks.

I really don't think this hacker understands what he has done and could potentially devastate a community, he is the lowest form of scum that I can think of.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: vladimirceman91 on August 15, 2014, 09:46:31 am
We can't lose BTER, it's our biggest exchange, I say we get their funds back!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: CryptKeeper on August 15, 2014, 09:47:07 am
Klee was successful with putting a bounty on the head of the hacker...

What if bter put a 10 million NXT bounty out?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: domsch on August 15, 2014, 09:48:01 am
CfB, please describe in detail how to forge a rollback.

Make the decision technically available for those who wish to support that please.

There is not even a vote needed. Forgers can vote by taking action.

+1. We are waiting for instructions to take actions.

Hoping that bter will offer a refund or that the successfully negotiate with the hacker is a waste of time.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: EvilDave on August 15, 2014, 09:48:50 am
Exchanges must not accept deposit of funds from the hacker's address, it's easy to track. No dumping will take place then.

Offer 10% and a free walk to the hacker, can BTER take a 5million hit?

We can, with all exchanges on board, shut down all options for the thief to profit quickly from his/her theft.
Or outforge, or rollback......we have options.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 09:49:25 am
do the rollback. Bter was one of our first major exchanges to trade NXT and I remember how happy I was when it was allowed to trade there. Least we could do is help them out with the hack to prevent the hacker from getting anything and hurting the price in the future.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Sebastien256 on August 15, 2014, 09:49:36 am
I curious to know how this is gonna end.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Cassius on August 15, 2014, 09:49:42 am
CfB, please describe in detail how to forge a rollback.

Make the decision technically available for those who wish to support that please.

There is not even a vote needed. Forgers can vote by taking action.

+1. We are waiting for instructions to take actions.

Hoping that bter will offer a refund or that the successfully negotiate with the hacker is a waste of time.

There may be other options. Hacker stated he wants btc not nxt. There aren't enough NXT exchanges to cash out.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: lucky88888 on August 15, 2014, 09:49:58 am
Hacker just posted a message:

http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=737607765281301757

Message: We can trade these NXT for some bitcoins to make life easier for you, and me.

bter can offer a deal with the hacker as well.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: vytasz7 on August 15, 2014, 09:50:28 am
DONT ROLL BACK
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: kushti on August 15, 2014, 09:50:47 am
Two cents from me:

1. Reversal could be done by forgers only, not Nxt itself. In the same way BTC pool/pools union having more than 51% of mining power could do blockchain manipulations.

2. Unfortunately we havent' Voting System in production yet. It would helps us a lot in cases like this one.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: jones on August 15, 2014, 09:50:56 am
Follow the chain of AMs here, the hacker has communicated through these previously

https://nxtblocks.info/#section/blockexplorer_messages
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: yassin54 on August 15, 2014, 09:51:02 am
I curious to know how this is gonna end.

me too  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: NxtSwe on August 15, 2014, 09:51:16 am
A possible solution, that I have not seen mentioned:

Someone remove that 50M transaction from the NXT database, instead transfer them to another account that is held by a trusted NXT user (J-Luc, C-f-B, or whatever) so they in turn can give it back to BTER.

Publish this new database file so forgers can download it and replace with their own.

Positive stuff:
+ Only the thief should be affected, all other transactions will be executed.

Negative stuff:
- I guess it will be a hard fork between forgers who don't use modified db file.

There might be better ways of executing it (publish a open source script/executable that removes rows from db instead of a completely new db).

I will never support a total rollback, in the long run, as I believe it will hurt NXT community more than it helps.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Darkhorse on August 15, 2014, 09:51:30 am
How many btc the hacker wants?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: vytasz7 on August 15, 2014, 09:51:40 am
best way is negotiate with hacker and pay the ransom
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: TimmyD on August 15, 2014, 09:51:48 am
Ok ok 10% to hacker for returning funds or 10% on his head for the heavys to redeem when they find him .
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: ThomasVeil on August 15, 2014, 09:52:47 am
Just create a hall of shame thread where you put addresses of all hackers, so that exchanges can implement measures not to accept funds from those addresses. It won't make much sense to steal then. And the hacker could return most of the stolen funds.

Don't write the same thing repeatedly in red.
Also: Don't be silly. It's not possible to perfectly block his addresses. You have to stop asset buying too and DGS transactions.
Mixers and anonymous sending are already in the works.

And consider: If blacklisting works, it's equal or worse to a rollback for all I see. It would be the majority deciding what one person can trade.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: vytasz7 on August 15, 2014, 09:53:08 am
if blockchain roll backed nxt image will be destroyed ,i kept 47k on bter
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: valarmg on August 15, 2014, 09:53:53 am
best way is negotiate with hacker and pay the ransom

Bter have just sent him an AM with an email address. Hopefully contact gets established.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: jones on August 15, 2014, 09:54:05 am
A possible solution, that I have not seen mentioned:

Someone remove that 50M transaction from the NXT database, instead transfer them to another account that is held by a trusted NXT user (J-Luc, C-f-B, or whatever) so they in turn can give it back to BTER.

Publish this new database file so forgers can download it and replace with their own.

Positive stuff:
+ Only the thief should be affected, all other transactions will be executed.

Negative stuff:
- I guess it will be a hard fork between forgers who don't use modified db file.

There might be better ways of executing it (publish a open source script/executable that removes rows from db instead of a completely new db).

I will never support a total rollback, in the long run, as I believe it will hurt NXT community more than it helps.

Wouldn't this change the checksum of the blocks? The blockchain is specifically designed to prevent stuff like this. The only way to non-obtrusively get rid of it is to undo all the blocks building up to it, then rebuild them
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: devphp on August 15, 2014, 09:54:30 am
If blacklisting works, it's equal or worse to a rollback for all I see. It would be the majority deciding what one person can trade.

I didn't mean blacklisting on NXT level, I meant blacklisting at exchanges' level, exchanges are perfectly free to choose who they accept as customers, this doesn't make NXT less decentralized.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: MikeSweeney on August 15, 2014, 09:54:43 am
I am in the early stages of examining NXT. Neither I nor the entity that I represent have any ownership.

In my opinion, you can't roll back this transaction. When Mt Gox went down, it is my opinion that it has made and will make the Bitcoin community MUCH stronger.

I now feel that the US economy would be stronger and a real leader in world markets if the FED had NOT saved AIG and others.

I am very intrigued by NXT. This forum seems to have FED like powers at this stage to turn back the clock (not sure that can really be done), and I think this would be a mistake to save one and not others. Where do you draw the line?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Mexxer on August 15, 2014, 09:54:53 am
FUUUUUUUCK

I had 80k Nxt on there!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: thesircom on August 15, 2014, 09:55:17 am
Lin used same password for 90% of his services including his linode account.

I'll be willing to give everything back if there is reward in btc from the profits Lin is making..

Complete lack of security.. same password for everything.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: baixs2 on August 15, 2014, 09:56:06 am
Remove the blocks after the theft and forge another branch where 50M will belong to BTER
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on August 15, 2014, 09:56:17 am
b) consider ALL consequences of a rollback! ALL transactions by EVERYONE will be undone!

No, similar case happened when someone exploited crazy fee bug. If the transactions were sent with 24h deadline they'll be included into new blocks.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: NxtSwe on August 15, 2014, 09:56:20 am
A possible solution, that I have not seen mentioned:

Someone remove that 50M transaction from the NXT database, instead transfer them to another account that is held by a trusted NXT user (J-Luc, C-f-B, or whatever) so they in turn can give it back to BTER.

Publish this new database file so forgers can download it and replace with their own.

Positive stuff:
+ Only the thief should be affected, all other transactions will be executed.

Negative stuff:
- I guess it will be a hard fork between forgers who don't use modified db file.

There might be better ways of executing it (publish a open source script/executable that removes rows from db instead of a completely new db).

I will never support a total rollback, in the long run, as I believe it will hurt NXT community more than it helps.

Wouldn't this change the checksum of the blocks? The blockchain is specifically designed to prevent stuff like this. The only way to non-obtrusively get rid of it is to undo all the blocks building up to it, then rebuild them

True, forget what I said.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: valarmg on August 15, 2014, 09:57:12 am
Lin used same password for 90% of his services including his linode account.

I'll be willing to give everything back if there is reward in btc from the profits Lin is making..

Complete lack of security.. same password for everything.

Bter sent you an AM with an email address. http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=13458451237428401030
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Jacinto on August 15, 2014, 09:57:26 am


We need to get out of panic mode and see the larger picture here.
Do NOT think with your wallets! Please think of the larger picture.

The problem is that, for several of us, if  "our wallets" today vanish, the larger picture disappears. No money, no game.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: yassin54 on August 15, 2014, 09:57:56 am
If blacklisting works, it's equal or worse to a rollback for all I see. It would be the majority deciding what one person can trade.

I didn't mean blacklisting on NXT level, I meant blacklisting at exchanges' level, exchanges are perfectly free to choose who they accept as customers, this doesn't make NXT less decentralized.

with the voting system
all would be easier

vote is decentralized  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: TimmyD on August 15, 2014, 09:58:03 am
Why nxt dude. theres loads of coins you could have hit
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: jones on August 15, 2014, 09:58:11 am
Lin used same password for 90% of his services including his linode account.

I'll be willing to give everything back if there is reward in btc from the profits Lin is making..

Complete lack of security.. same password for everything.

I think thats up to BTER to decide

And wow exchange security needs some work
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: NxtSwe on August 15, 2014, 09:58:15 am
b) consider ALL consequences of a rollback! ALL transactions by EVERYONE will be undone!

No, similar case happened when someone exploited crazy fee bug. If the transactions were sent with 24h deadline they'll be included into new blocks.
Are you saying it is possible to roll back just the theft TX, and include all legit transactions?
If so, I'm for it, if rollback means rolling back everything, I'm against.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: chanc3r on August 15, 2014, 09:58:23 am
I want to go on record as being against a rollback, painful though it may be.

Hypothetical situation:

- I have done a BIG business deal and made a killing.
- Then this happens and we decide to do a roll back
- I lose ALL my business and my partner decides to renege on the deal because of this.
- BOOM, we're completely done.

Painful as it is, we stand to lose all credibility as a platform. We cannot roll back.
Bter has already stated that this is their mishap. This is business risk.
I like Bter, I really do. They have been great on several occasions. But this, we just cannot do, for any reason.

We need to get out of panic mode and see the larger picture here.
Do NOT think with your wallets! Please think of the larger picture.

In terms of the volume/value of TX done since the theft I imagine this is 99% of the value.
If it were 5% of the value of the block chain TX since the theft then what you are saying would be more valid and in the future something like this might stop such an action by forgers.

There is a counter side to this...
Yes the power to rewrite the block chain is scary and will scare some people.
Also the power to steal this sum and the theft is irrevocable will scare a lot of people also.
If such a rollback never be done then 'use of stake' is without individual will - it is just a passive activity.
If this is done because the 'community or forgers' judges that this is necessary - why is this so wrong..
There are real world examples of issues having to be corrected that have collateral damage.

Save a copy of the original chain with a block explorer and if anyone is proven to have suffered as a result then BTER can agree to make good for those people - put 10% in a compensation fund - community administrated and deal with it.

BTER should agree to this should the community decide to  implement after all this saves their exchange.

Dont confuse decentralised with disorganised - at times ecosystems have to organise to neutralise a threat and then carry on..

I am truly in two minds about this at the moment but what I do know is the threat has to be stopped...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: marcus03 on August 15, 2014, 09:58:29 am
Lin used same password for 90% of his services including his linode account.

I'll be willing to give everything back if there is reward in btc from the profits Lin is making..

Complete lack of security.. same password for everything.

Could you please post a token on account NXT-8WJ7-8A2H-MBYN-3W9K4?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: whale on August 15, 2014, 09:58:39 am
I only had around a BTC worth of Nxt on bter (luckily).


Either we put a bounty on this fuckers head or we let him/ her keep a percentage. Both a roll back or letting him/ her have 50 million Nxt is a bad idea.

We need to track him/ her or negotiate with him/ her.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: vytasz7 on August 15, 2014, 09:59:45 am
Lin used same password for 90% of his services including his linode account.

I'll be willing to give everything back if there is reward in btc from the profits Lin is making..

Complete lack of security.. same password for everything.

how much do you want?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: valarmg on August 15, 2014, 09:59:57 am
Lin used same password for 90% of his services including his linode account.

I'll be willing to give everything back if there is reward in btc from the profits Lin is making..

Complete lack of security.. same password for everything.

Also, this is incredible if true. Wow, at the lack of security for so much unrefundable money. Did no one learn from Mt Gox?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: ThomasVeil on August 15, 2014, 10:00:37 am
If blacklisting works, it's equal or worse to a rollback for all I see. It would be the majority deciding what one person can trade.

I didn't mean blacklisting on NXT level, I meant blacklisting at exchanges' level, exchanges are perfectly free to choose who they accept as customers, this doesn't make NXT less decentralized.

That makes even less sense. So they block his current address? So he just moves to another. Done.
What do you do now? Block all addresses he transfers to? Good luck. Maybe he sends one NXT to your account for fun. Now you're banned.
Also he can still buy stuff - assets and such or digital goods - or anything else offered for NXT.
...and you ignored the mixers/darksend.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Damelon on August 15, 2014, 10:01:40 am
Lin used same password for 90% of his services including his linode account.

I'll be willing to give everything back if there is reward in btc from the profits Lin is making..

Complete lack of security.. same password for everything.

Please provide proof that you hold the account.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Peter2516 on August 15, 2014, 10:01:53 am

If this is done because the 'community or forgers' judges that this is necessary - why is this so wrong..

Hmm, about 50 people voting in https://nxtforum.org/news-and-announcements/roll-back-bter-hack-of-50m-nxt/ isn't really 'community of forgers' imo.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: vladimirceman91 on August 15, 2014, 10:01:58 am
How about this...

We roll back and if someone loses his NXTs, due to rollback, the Bter will replenish them...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: nzminer on August 15, 2014, 10:02:12 am
I am not in favour of a rollback, because this goes against decentralisation, i thought transactions were supposed to be irreversible?
What does this do for our integrity?

Is this really any worse than Mt GOX?
Look where BTC is now, its still around $600.

These things blow over, just need to stop panicking.

BTW, a lesson should be learned here never to trust exchanges.
I think a de-centralised exchange is the answer, how hard would it be to implement NXT halo?
Would it be possible?
Nighttrader is the future. NXT needs to get on board.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: NxtSwe on August 15, 2014, 10:02:54 am
Quote
Okay, so I'll send everything back right now, if I get compensated.
http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=2472576623867765592
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: swartzfeger on August 15, 2014, 10:03:04 am
If this is done because the 'community or forgers' judges that this is necessary - why is this so wrong..


This. It's not a fiat decree by an individual or committee.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: valarmg on August 15, 2014, 10:03:14 am
New message from hacker to Bter: "Okay, so I'll send everything back right now, if I get compensated."

http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=2472576623867765592
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Vega on August 15, 2014, 10:03:35 am
You know what, I changed my mind. I just sent 150k today to bter, but I vote no.
The greatest problem for NXT is it's reputation with initial distribution, a rollback would make too much damage.
What's done is done. The thief is willing to talk, negotiate.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: swartzfeger on August 15, 2014, 10:04:07 am

If this is done because the 'community or forgers' judges that this is necessary - why is this so wrong..

Hmm, about 50 people voting in https://nxtforum.org/news-and-announcements/roll-back-bter-hack-of-50m-nxt/ (https://nxtforum.org/news-and-announcements/roll-back-bter-hack-of-50m-nxt/) isn't really 'community of forgers' imo.


That's not what chanc3r is referring to (but I see your point).
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Sebastien256 on August 15, 2014, 10:04:32 am
Quote
Okay, so I'll send everything back right now, if I get compensated.
http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=2472576623867765592

Ok I think bter need to compensate him with BTC and end this.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: ccedk on August 15, 2014, 10:04:58 am
CCEDK exchange here!

We would like to let everybody know, that CCEDK will not accept any funds attempted to be deposited from mentioned NXT address:

NXT-8WJ7-8A2H-MBYN-3W9K4

We are here to help, and hope to be part of setting a stop to any use of this 50 mill, and will be happy to help in any further way needed!

Yours sincerely

Ronny Boesing
CCEDK ApS

Phone office: +45 36 98 11 50

Web: www.ccedk.com

Mail: ronny@ccedk.com
Twitter: https://twitter.com/CCEDK_
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/CCEDK

Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 10:05:20 am
New message from hacker to Bter: "Okay, so I'll send everything back right now, if I get compensated."

wonder how much is his "compensation" fee

if its true about Lin's password, then see if Bter wouldn't mind losing some of their profits and patching that security hole of theirs so this doesn't happen again. Just have to make sure they get their NXT first or from a middle party or something.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Peter2516 on August 15, 2014, 10:05:25 am

This. It's not a fiat decree by an individual or committee.

'History' will regard a handful of people in a forum as a centralised committee...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: maxll on August 15, 2014, 10:05:42 am
Can't believe that you CfB suggest something any about rollback of blockchain! Dont your account get hacked too?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: lucky88888 on August 15, 2014, 10:05:45 am
Exchanges must not accept deposit of funds from the hacker's address, it's easy to track. No dumping will take place then.

this one won't work. he can sell these to people and people want to trade it on exchange and finds out their address is linked and blacklisted...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: chanc3r on August 15, 2014, 10:06:07 am

If this is done because the 'community or forgers' judges that this is necessary - why is this so wrong..

Hmm, about 50 people voting in https://nxtforum.org/news-and-announcements/roll-back-bter-hack-of-50m-nxt/ isn't really 'community of forgers' imo.

You misunderstand this is to gauge opinion...

All forgers would still need to come online and forge a new chain to actually do it - at the moment this is simply the community expressing its opinion visibly to help forgers decide....

If a forger does not agree there is nothing anyone can do to 'compel' them.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: allwelder on August 15, 2014, 10:06:18 am
Support return NXT to Bter.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: yassin54 on August 15, 2014, 10:06:41 am
CCEDK exchange here!

We would like to let everybody know, that CCEDK will not accept any funds attempted to be deposited from mentioned NXT address:

NXT-8WJ7-8A2H-MBYN-3W9K4

We are here to help, and hope to be part of setting a stop to any use of this 50 mill, and will be happy to help in any further way needed!

Yours sincerely

Ronny Boesing
CCEDK ApS

Phone office: +45 36 98 11 50

Web: www.ccedk.com

Mail: ronny@ccedk.com
Twitter: https://twitter.com/CCEDK_
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/CCEDK

thanks  ;) ;)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: jones on August 15, 2014, 10:06:45 am
Bter need to watch out for sending this hacker the btc, he might just take that too and keep the nxt, a middle ground send location needs to be had on this
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: 4747...888 on August 15, 2014, 10:06:49 am
Just stopped when saw this.
Waiting new version.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Sebastien256 on August 15, 2014, 10:06:55 am
Can't believe that you CfB suggest something any about rollback of blockchain! Dont your account get hacked too?

I think he offer the option to the forger, being neutral, but did not tell his opinion on this.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on August 15, 2014, 10:07:37 am
Sorry, that's not "legit" in my book. Imagine if the Bitcoin pools suddenly decided to "rollback" transactions when MtGox was hacked. Do you really want me to get into more details into how damaging such a move will be for NXT's credibility?

Well, maybe it's not legit for u. It's legit from point of view of the protocol. When 90% attack protection is released the interval for a legit chain reorg will be narrowed from 720 to 10 blocks.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Cassius on August 15, 2014, 10:07:50 am
Please confirm terms - and perhaps make a preliminary payment (small % of total) as gesture of good faith?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Peter2516 on August 15, 2014, 10:08:16 am

All forgers would still need to come online and forge a new chain to actually do it - this is simply the community expressing its opinion

Ah okay, ic :)
But I'm not sure that's how the cryptoworld will view it...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Fern on August 15, 2014, 10:08:22 am
Avoid rollback, save NXT credibility. It will be a blight forever.

Do our best to do a deal with hacker and take a smaller hit.

BTER, unfortunately you have to learn a hard lesson here. Agree to eventually pay back all holders and sort your security out.

NXT makes agreements with all exchanges, no rollbacks ever.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Mexxer on August 15, 2014, 10:08:34 am
New message from hacker to Bter: "Okay, so I'll send everything back right now, if I get compensated."

http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=2472576623867765592

Yes fucking compensate him and let's get it over with ... let the compensation come from BTER and not from us.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: NxtSwe on August 15, 2014, 10:08:37 am
The thief posted his BTC address:
13UZjKkhHWyTmQ4mx28WT5Wj1zw4pEByZw

http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=555267154622629311
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Neomadra on August 15, 2014, 10:08:43 am
Lin used same password for 90% of his services including his linode account.

I'll be willing to give everything back if there is reward in btc from the profits Lin is making..

Complete lack of security.. same password for everything.

Hail mysterious you!
Please give this man the reward he earned!
Yes I think he earns a pretty nice reward because with that lacking security a hacking incident in the future would be way worse.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: damon on August 15, 2014, 10:09:21 am
In a truly DeCentralized platform, you would NOT rollback - each and everyone of one of us would have to chose NOT to do business with a thief.  Anything else, is MAJORITY wins and is NOT a DeCentralized system, it's a WITCHHUNT.  In this case - it probably is indeed a WITCH, but it sets an opposite precedence
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: NxtSwe on August 15, 2014, 10:09:39 am
The thief posted his BTC address:
13UZjKkhHWyTmQ4mx28WT5Wj1zw4pEByZw

http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=555267154622629311

And he has recieved 3.3 1 BTC so far (I guess it's from BTER)?
https://blockchain.info/address/13UZjKkhHWyTmQ4mx28WT5Wj1zw4pEByZw
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: nzminer on August 15, 2014, 10:09:53 am
Avoid rollback, save NXT credibility. It will be a blight forever.

Do our best to do a deal with hacker and take a smaller hit.

BTER, unfortunately you have to learn a hard lesson here. Agree to eventually pay back all holders and sort your security out.

NXT makes agreements with all exchanges, no rollbacks ever.

+1
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: yassin54 on August 15, 2014, 10:09:59 am
Sorry, that's not "legit" in my book. Imagine if the Bitcoin pools suddenly decided to "rollback" transactions when MtGox was hacked. Do you really want me to get into more details into how damaging such a move will be for NXT's credibility?

Well, maybe it's not legit for u. It's legit from point of view of the protocol. When 90% attack protection is released the interval for a legit chain reorg will be narrowed from 720 to 10 blocks.

the first and last time

after it has your risk ;D ;D
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: ThomasVeil on August 15, 2014, 10:10:29 am
New message from hacker to Bter: "Okay, so I'll send everything back right now, if I get compensated."

http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=2472576623867765592

That would be rational by him - he would get much less if he kept it and tries to sell it (even without rollback he would lose).
Now how can a secure transfer be made, so as that he actually transfers the cash?
And how can it be made in time. He might just try to stall, so that the rollback doesn't get made.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Mexxer on August 15, 2014, 10:11:10 am
I am completely AGAINST a rollback!

I am all for trying to get it back from the hacker. Appearently he is willing to get it back for a compensation! Let BTER pay the compensation and let's get our money back!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 10:11:35 am
The thief posted his BTC address:
13UZjKkhHWyTmQ4mx28WT5Wj1zw4pEByZw


And he has recieved 3.3 1 BTC so far (I guess it's from BTER)?

only 1 of the 2 transactions were in August. so doubtful.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: allwelder on August 15, 2014, 10:11:46 am
The thief posted his BTC address:
13UZjKkhHWyTmQ4mx28WT5Wj1zw4pEByZw

http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=555267154622629311
Escrow?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: yassin54 on August 15, 2014, 10:12:17 am
New message from hacker to Bter: "Okay, so I'll send everything back right now, if I get compensated."

http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=2472576623867765592

That would be rational by him - he would get much less if he kept it and tries to sell it (even without rollback he would lose).
Now how can a secure transfer be made, so as that he actually transfers the cash?
And how can it be made in time. He might just try to stall, so that the rollback doesn't get made.

it saves time  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 10:12:35 am
If a rollback would cause much harm, I support the compensation on BTER side.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: antanst on August 15, 2014, 10:12:44 am
Sorry, that's not "legit" in my book. Imagine if the Bitcoin pools suddenly decided to "rollback" transactions when MtGox was hacked. Do you really want me to get into more details into how damaging such a move will be for NXT's credibility?

Well, maybe it's not legit for u. It's legit from point of view of the protocol. When 90% attack protection is released the interval for a legit chain reorg will be narrowed from 720 to 10 blocks.

This is not a technical matter, it's a matter of principle.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 10:13:04 am
lets just get this thing over with..
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: vytasz7 on August 15, 2014, 10:13:30 am
this incident having impact not only on nxt but on crypti launch as well  :-[
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: valarmg on August 15, 2014, 10:13:56 am
Bter offered 10btc and the hacker scoffed it off. First time to have ramson negotiations on the blockchain?

http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=ac&ac=1244396688755618309
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: NxtSwe on August 15, 2014, 10:14:28 am
Lol, negotiations ongoing:

http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=6345870878726622463
Quote
send all NXT back to NXT-R3V3-2S79-F3ZM-BVXKZ or the stolen address now. Leave a BTC address for 10BTC. You can go with what you have otherwise, a rollback will happen in minutes and we are going to take all our power and publish a huge bounty to take you down. We promise.

replies:
http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=17475474505212752592
Quote
lol. than i leak your all md5 passwords. 10btc you kidding me ?

http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=4513229515670407694
Quote
good luck ;)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Costner on August 15, 2014, 10:15:02 am
let us do it,give back to bter

Agreed
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: TimmyD on August 15, 2014, 10:15:06 am
These hackers will eventually spoil everything. not just nxt. they will end up having to rob banks the old fashioned way. no one wants crypto if some teenager in his dads garage can steal 1.7million usd
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Neomadra on August 15, 2014, 10:15:36 am
Bter is kidding with 10 btc reward. Give the hacker 100 btc. This negotiation is ridiculous, the hacker has the stronger position. Bter trusts on the rollback, please don't promise a rollback just for Bter.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Sebastien256 on August 15, 2014, 10:15:59 am
These hackers will eventually spoil everything. not just nxt. they will end up having to rob banks the old fashioned way. no one wants crypto if some teenager in his dads garage can steal 1.7million usd

the problem is related with bter, not crypto in itself.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: lucky88888 on August 15, 2014, 10:16:03 am
Lin used same password for 90% of his services including his linode account.

I'll be willing to give everything back if there is reward in btc from the profits Lin is making..

Complete lack of security.. same password for everything.

omg. why you have to do this. one day you will get hit back from the centralized world we are trying to change.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: kodtycoon on August 15, 2014, 10:16:34 am
They had better give him what he wants! Nxt is their highest volume market by a good bit

Sent from my C1905 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: TimmyD on August 15, 2014, 10:16:45 am
These hackers will eventually spoil everything. not just nxt. they will end up having to rob banks the old fashioned way. no one wants crypto if some teenager in his dads garage can steal 1.7million usd

the problem is related with bter, not crypto in itself.
And where are people buying crypto
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Peter2516 on August 15, 2014, 10:17:18 am
(https://notesbetweenfriends.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/micheal-jackson-thriller-popcorn-animated.gif)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: vytasz7 on August 15, 2014, 10:17:21 am
10 btc is a joke
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Sebastien256 on August 15, 2014, 10:17:53 am
These hackers will eventually spoil everything. not just nxt. they will end up having to rob banks the old fashioned way. no one wants crypto if some teenager in his dads garage can steal 1.7million usd

the problem is related with bter, not crypto in itself.
And where are people buying crypto

at the moment it is from centralized exchanged. In the future, this should be done decentrally.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: yassin54 on August 15, 2014, 10:18:11 am
(https://notesbetweenfriends.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/micheal-jackson-thriller-popcorn-animated.gif)

hahahahahahah  ;D ;D

bye bye exchange
welcome secureae and mgw  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Micky on August 15, 2014, 10:18:42 am
BTER helped NEXT (klee), and now is the next community turn it back! Rollback the blockchain and help BTER!!!!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: landomata on August 15, 2014, 10:19:01 am
I am completely AGAINST a rollback!

I am all for trying to get it back from the hacker. Appearently he is willing to get it back for a compensation! Let BTER pay the compensation and let's get our money back!
+1
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: whale on August 15, 2014, 10:19:15 am
Bter is kidding with 10 btc reward. Give the hacker 100 btc. This negotiation is ridiculous, the hacker has the stronger position. Bter trusts on the rollback, please don't promise a rollback just for Bter.

Haha +1


Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: coinomat on August 15, 2014, 10:19:53 am
It will give NXT very bad publicity. It is not good in the long term, no matter how urgent it seems now. Bter should pay the ransom, the hacker understands that he can't cash it out.

Also did you think about the way it can effect other exchange services, like ours for example?

In any case this is the voting thing, if voting was already implemented we could have a fair way out of this. But I would vote NO in any case.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: landomata on August 15, 2014, 10:20:03 am
BTER helped NEXT (klee), and now is the next community turn it back! Rollback the blockchain and help BTER!!!!

Do you know the implications of a roll back?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Peter2516 on August 15, 2014, 10:20:28 am

bye bye exchange
welcome secureae and mgw  ;D ;D ;D

Well, you'd still need to get fiat into crypto...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Mexxer on August 15, 2014, 10:20:46 am
BTER helped NEXT (klee), and now is the next community turn it back! Rollback the blockchain and help BTER!!!!

Fuck BTER! They fucked up big time. I am more willing to give up my stash than do a rollback!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 10:21:46 am
seems like the hacker is coming around the the idea if the ransom is 100btc...BTER GIVE IT TO HIM!!!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: NxtSwe on August 15, 2014, 10:22:05 am
Lol, negotiations ongoing:

http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=6345870878726622463
Quote
send all NXT back to NXT-R3V3-2S79-F3ZM-BVXKZ or the stolen address now. Leave a BTC address for 10BTC. You can go with what you have otherwise, a rollback will happen in minutes and we are going to take all our power and publish a huge bounty to take you down. We promise.

replies:
http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=17475474505212752592
Quote
lol. than i leak your all md5 passwords. 10btc you kidding me ?

http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=4513229515670407694
Quote
good luck ;)

http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=11975898962099438277
Quote
1 BTC sent. Now it's your turn to return the NXT and we will give the left.

Replies:
http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=7944053710644713071
Quote
left what? I don't need your lousy 10BTC

http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=18047323490480277591
Quote
100 btc, than we're talking. otherwise, let it do the rollback.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on August 15, 2014, 10:22:39 am
Rollback would cause some problems.
For example I sent 100k+ to BTER today, it would be rolled back. However I already sold around 50k. What will happen? Bter could roll back my trade, (bad,bad idea), or freeze my account until I send the transaction again.
Lots of work, confusion and potential problems.

Clusterfuck.

Simple is pie. If u sent with 24h deadline (or less but still more than several hours) then ur transaction will be included into the new branch.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Sebastien256 on August 15, 2014, 10:23:13 am
seems like the hacker is coming around the the idea if the ransom is 100btc...BTER GIVE IT TO HIM!!!

yes 100btc is reasonable. I think. This could be pay incrementally. I don't think an escrow is needed.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: valarmg on August 15, 2014, 10:23:25 am
No rollback. Let Bter pay the ransom.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: vladimirceman91 on August 15, 2014, 10:23:58 am
Lol, negotiations ongoing:

http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=6345870878726622463
Quote
send all NXT back to NXT-R3V3-2S79-F3ZM-BVXKZ or the stolen address now. Leave a BTC address for 10BTC. You can go with what you have otherwise, a rollback will happen in minutes and we are going to take all our power and publish a huge bounty to take you down. We promise.

replies:
http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=17475474505212752592
Quote
lol. than i leak your all md5 passwords. 10btc you kidding me ?

http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=4513229515670407694
Quote
good luck ;)

http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=11975898962099438277
Quote
1 BTC sent. Now it's your turn to return the NXT and we will give the left.

Replies:
http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=7944053710644713071
Quote
left what? I don't need your lousy 10BTC

http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=18047323490480277591
Quote
100 btc, than we're talking. otherwise, let it do the rollback.

He's got to work on his grammar "than-then" xD
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: landomata on August 15, 2014, 10:25:03 am
Rollback would cause some problems.
For example I sent 100k+ to BTER today, it would be rolled back. However I already sold around 50k. What will happen? Bter could roll back my trade, (bad,bad idea), or freeze my account until I send the transaction again.
Lots of work, confusion and potential problems.

Clusterfuck.

Simple is pie. If u sent with 24h deadline (or less but still more than several hours) then ur transaction will be included into the new branch.

It creates bad precedent...bad idea for decentralized crypto.

Whats happens if someone request this again & again.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: jones on August 15, 2014, 10:25:31 am
MGW sounds really good right now. Jl777 is getting a lot of marketing done for free on this :D
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 10:26:10 am
seems like the hacker is coming around the the idea if the ransom is 100btc...BTER GIVE IT TO HIM!!!

yes 100btc is reasonable. I think. This could be pay incrementally. I don't think an escrow is needed.

+1

Either Bter pays the hacker around $50k USD or loses around $1.75m USD (with all the fees that come with the trades for that exchange) if the rollback doesn't happen and the hacker keeps it.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on August 15, 2014, 10:26:29 am
Apparently C-f-B and Wesleyh are willing to do this, aren't they? Why?

Willing to do what?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: whale on August 15, 2014, 10:26:38 am
Bter give the hacker 100 BTC! You are going to pay the Nxt community A LOT more than that if no roll back happens. IF a roll back happens, you kill Nxt.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Irontiga on August 15, 2014, 10:26:49 am
Lol, negotiations ongoing:

http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=6345870878726622463
Quote
send all NXT back to NXT-R3V3-2S79-F3ZM-BVXKZ or the stolen address now. Leave a BTC address for 10BTC. You can go with what you have otherwise, a rollback will happen in minutes and we are going to take all our power and publish a huge bounty to take you down. We promise.

replies:
http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=17475474505212752592
Quote
lol. than i leak your all md5 passwords. 10btc you kidding me ?

http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=4513229515670407694
Quote
good luck ;)

http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=11975898962099438277
Quote
1 BTC sent. Now it's your turn to return the NXT and we will give the left.

Replies:
http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=7944053710644713071
Quote
left what? I don't need your lousy 10BTC

http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=18047323490480277591
Quote
100 btc, than we're talking. otherwise, let it do the rollback.

He's got to work on his grammar "than-then" xD

Probably just on a phone with Swype(google keyboard...)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: ThomasVeil on August 15, 2014, 10:28:04 am
http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=18047323490480277591
Quote
100 btc, than we're talking. otherwise, let it do the rollback.

He's got to work on his grammar "than-then" xD

With all the super super super stupid safety precautions of the big NXT holders, it sadly doesn't take very smart hackers to break them. :/
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Breasal on August 15, 2014, 10:28:21 am
I had a substantial amount of NXT on Bter...

NO ROLLBACK!

The implications for are hugely negative if we rollback.

Ransom yes, but no rollback.

Note: price consequences of not getting NXT back could be dramatic as well.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on August 15, 2014, 10:28:51 am
b) Multigateway is at risk. Did jl777 chime in on this?

Depends on transaction deadline. If he used default deadline then it's perfectly fine. Everything in Nxt is made on purpose, that why default deadline is longer than allowed rollback.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: kodtycoon on August 15, 2014, 10:29:09 am
I am completely AGAINST a rollback!

I am all for trying to get it back from the hacker. Appearently he is willing to get it back for a compensation! Let BTER pay the compensation and let's get our money back!
+1
+1 I don't support a roll back what so ever.

Sent from my C1905 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: EvilDave on August 15, 2014, 10:29:34 am
Considereing that 50 million NXT is around 3400 BTC right now......100BTC seems reasonable, tbh.
Return it in 10 increments: 10 BTC paid to hacker, 5 million NXT paid back to BTER, repeat.
This way no-one can break the deal and no escrow needed......
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: TimmyD on August 15, 2014, 10:30:13 am
Maybe bter should do 10btc at a time in return for 5mill nxt until all recieved back
evil dave beat me to it
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Sebastien256 on August 15, 2014, 10:30:29 am
Considereing that 50 million NXT is around 3400 BTC right now......100BTC seems reasonable, tbh.
Return it in 10 increments: 10 BTC paid to hacker, 5 million NXT paid back to BTER, repeat.
This way no-one can break the deal and no escrow needed......

yes this wgat I had in mind
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Mexxer on August 15, 2014, 10:30:58 am
A rollback is out of the fucking question!

BTER pay the hacker the 100 BTC he requested! Maybe THEN you guys can rebuild your trust with the community and the coin with the highest volume on your exchange! Otherwise you lose a huge customer base!
It was your fault and you fucked up big time! Now have the balls and get it over with!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: cobaltskky on August 15, 2014, 10:31:10 am
First lets just ask the thief nicely to give back the NXT they stole. No way they can keep it anyway.
When this fails I'm in favor of a roll back, but this has to be a one time solution.

+1440

Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: yassin54 on August 15, 2014, 10:31:19 am
Most Online Today: 416. Most Online Ever: 416 (Today at 10:13:53 am)

yes or no?
simple
 ;D ;D
vote vote
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: vladimirceman91 on August 15, 2014, 10:31:37 am
Maybe bter should do 10btc at a time in return for 5mill nxt until all recieved back

Agreed, it should go in fractions.

If they get cheated again, it would be very riddiculous! :D
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 10:32:11 am
Maybe bter should do 10btc at a time in return for 5mill nxt until all recieved back
evil dave beat me to it

Good
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: wesley on August 15, 2014, 10:32:22 am
This is a good time to promote this new exchange; http://hitbtc.com

Too much NXT in 1 exchange is bad.. decentralize.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: maddy83 on August 15, 2014, 10:32:24 am
Bter, you should pay up the 100 BTC. That is cheap compared to 50M NXT or your trading volumes.

Bter is to blame for their lack of security. They should pay the price for it. Bter is trying to avoid any loss by pushing for a rollback. It will never happen if it is avoidable by paying 100 BTC.

If the NXT is not returned after the ransom has been paid, then a rollback should be considered.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: kodtycoon on August 15, 2014, 10:32:27 am
seems like the hacker is coming around the the idea if the ransom is 100btc...BTER GIVE IT TO HIM!!!

yes 100btc is reasonable. I think. This could be pay incrementally. I don't think an escrow is needed.
use multigateway

Sent from my C1905 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: whale on August 15, 2014, 10:32:39 am
We all need to let freeworm know that BTER must pay the 100 BTC. Any other option is detrimental to Nxt.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: TimmyD on August 15, 2014, 10:32:47 am
A rollback is out of the fucking question!

BTER pay the hacker the 100 BTC he requested! Maybe THEN you guys can rebuild your trust with the community and the coin with the highest volume on your exchange! Otherwise you lose a huge customer base!
It was your fault and you fucked up big time! Now have the balls and get it over with!
Dude you cant talk to them like that. whos fault was it when klee lost his btc and nxt funds. klees. did bter talk to him that way. give em break we are all human and make mistakes
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: yassin54 on August 15, 2014, 10:32:55 am
First lets just ask the thief nicely to give back the NXT they stole. No way they can keep it anyway.
When this fails I'm in favor of a roll back, but this has to be a one time solution.

+1440
+1440
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: swartzfeger on August 15, 2014, 10:33:08 am
210055. No new blocks for 20 minutes?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: mezzovide on August 15, 2014, 10:33:17 am
No rollback please.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: landomata on August 15, 2014, 10:33:25 am
Most Online Today: 416. Most Online Ever: 416 (Today at 10:13:53 am)

yes or no?
simple
 ;D ;D
vote vote

Sock puppets....this gives our competitors a perfect chance to kill us.

No Roll back.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Vega on August 15, 2014, 10:33:35 am
Considereing that 50 million NXT is around 3400 BTC right now......100BTC seems reasonable, tbh.
Return it in 10 increments: 10 BTC paid to hacker, 5 million NXT paid back to BTER, repeat.
This way no-one can break the deal and no escrow needed......

yes this wgat I had in mind
Me too. I think the bter guys are really rattled right now, and not thinking clearly. If every side calms down they will see this is the reasonable solution.

What a great time for a long block btw. :)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: devphp on August 15, 2014, 10:33:48 am
NXT in any exchange is bad.. withdraw!

FIFY
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Sebastien256 on August 15, 2014, 10:34:16 am
210055. No new blocks for 20 minutes?

yes that happen everyday I think.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Jacinto on August 15, 2014, 10:34:25 am
210055. No new blocks for 20 minutes?

Rollback in process.

Thanks for your understanding.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: yassin54 on August 15, 2014, 10:34:46 am

Too much NXT in 1 exchange is bad.. decentralize.

i agree
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: nzminer on August 15, 2014, 10:35:10 am
100BTC is a drop in a bucket compared to all the damage the NXT community would receive, for what benefit exactly?
NO rollback, end of story...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: TimmyD on August 15, 2014, 10:35:15 am
Well since so many people are viewing this is why MGW is safer than an exchange this could happen to any coin fundsnleft on an exchange. Use MGW lol
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: landomata on August 15, 2014, 10:35:21 am
210055. No new blocks for 20 minutes?

Rollback in process.

Thanks for your understanding.

Who gave the go ahead...a vote that any suck puppet can join.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: rudeboi on August 15, 2014, 10:35:26 am
I think BTER should just pay a decent ransom,
10 BTC was a bit of a joke amount.

The hacker knows he can never realise anywhere near the amount it is currently valued at, exchanges and Nxt community would blacklist the account, and the only exchange with high enough liquidity to exchange back to BTC is BTER anyway. So the best option for the hacker is a deal.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: lucky88888 on August 15, 2014, 10:35:42 am
THE BEST DECISION IS BTER should compensate the hacker!
PAY AND EXCHANGE IN PARTS TO PREVENT FURTHER ABUSE!


WE NEED TO INCLUDE A VOTING OPTION FOR THIS TOO.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: vladimirceman91 on August 15, 2014, 10:36:05 am
210055. No new blocks for 20 minutes?

Nope. 210057 a minute ago...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on August 15, 2014, 10:36:16 am
I'm not 100% decided on this. Tending to rollback because it's democratically decided.

No, it's not democracy. Guys with deep pockets will decide.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: valarmg on August 15, 2014, 10:36:26 am
Everyone make it clear to Bter that there will be no rollback and they just have to pay the 100btc. We do not owe Bter a rollback.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: mudshark79 on August 15, 2014, 10:36:34 am
My 2Cts: No Rollback.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: CryptKeeper on August 15, 2014, 10:36:40 am
I'm also for bter compensating the hacker, much better than a rollback!

BTW who forged the 51000 NXT fee?  ;D
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Mexxer on August 15, 2014, 10:36:57 am
A rollback is out of the fucking question!

BTER pay the hacker the 100 BTC he requested! Maybe THEN you guys can rebuild your trust with the community and the coin with the highest volume on your exchange! Otherwise you lose a huge customer base!
It was your fault and you fucked up big time! Now have the balls and get it over with!
Dude you cant talk to them like that. whos fault was it when klee lost his btc and nxt funds. klees. did bter talk to him that way. give em break we are all human and make mistakes

Sure it was my fault to put any trust in them. Point taken.
klees mistake was something completely different!
It was their fault to have bad security.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Vega on August 15, 2014, 10:37:00 am
First lets just ask the thief nicely to give back the NXT they stole. No way they can keep it anyway.
When this fails I'm in favor of a roll back, but this has to be a one time solution.

+1440
+1440

Actually I changed my mind since then.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: kodtycoon on August 15, 2014, 10:37:28 am
100 btc sounds good. 10 was a joke.

Sent from my C1905 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on August 15, 2014, 10:37:37 am
Luckily nxt is small enough that we can make this call and be pretty sure everyone knows what's happening..

Luckily Nxt doesn't have 90% attack protection activated. After it's released we could do nothing in a similar case.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: nzminer on August 15, 2014, 10:37:48 am
NO ROLLBACK!
ANSWER TO ALL EXCHANGE ISSUES IS HERE!
http://nighttrader.org/
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: ceric35 on August 15, 2014, 10:38:09 am
We can't relly rewrite the past in a decentralized system.

We can do it legally within 720-block frame. But the time is passing...

Sure we can. I mean we "should" not to.

By the way, I changed my mind.
I'm sorry for bter (great trading platform) but a blockchain rollback has huge consequences.
Hope that bter could negociate with hacker.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: nexern on August 15, 2014, 10:38:41 am
so where do we stand?

1. rewind, possible but not the best solution and it getting worser by time.

2. no rewind but we could trace all transactions of the account at least for a while
preventing to spend this nxt. (i would built a custom tracer, no matter how fast he
distribute the funds to other accounts, very quickly, including a json api for exchanges
to poll). this wouldn't work for a very long time but perhaps long enough to hunt
him down with a very big community bounty.

3. deal with him and pay for this lesson.

i prefer 3
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: whale on August 15, 2014, 10:39:04 am
Everyone make it clear to Bter that there will be no rollback and they just have to pay the 100btc. We do not owe Bter a rollback.

This is our only option.

Rollback = kills Nxt
Hacker owns 50 million Nxt = kills Nxt
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: vladimirceman91 on August 15, 2014, 10:39:36 am
I'm also for bter compensating the hacker, much better than a rollback!

BTW who forged the 51000 NXT fee?  ;D

Hahahaha good one  ;D
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 10:39:57 am
Everyone make it clear to Bter that there will be no rollback and they just have to pay the 100btc. We do not owe Bter a rollback.

This is our only option.

Rollback = kills Nxt
Hacker owns 50 million Nxt = kills Nxt

Come on BTER :)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: fredch on August 15, 2014, 10:40:05 am
To the hacker:
please send back 500'000 NXT to BTER since they sent you 1 BTC.
This will initiate the ransom payment, this way you show them that you are willing to get "compensated" by 100 BTC.
Then BTER X BTC , ...
This is the same as the proposed 10BTC for 5 mio NXT, but in smaller increment.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: S3MKi on August 15, 2014, 10:40:23 am
decentralized system. no rollback!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: landomata on August 15, 2014, 10:40:28 am
so where do we stand?

1. rewind, possible but not the best solution and it getting worser by time.

2. no rewind but we could trace all transactions of the account at least for a while
preventing to spend this nxt. (i would built a custom tracer, no matter how fast he
distribute the funds to other accounts, very quickly, including a json api for exchanges
to poll). this wouldn't work for a very long time but perhaps long enough to hunt
him down with a very big community bounty.

3. deal with him and pay for this lesson.

i prefer 3

+100
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: WolfofCrypto on August 15, 2014, 10:41:01 am
NXter's before making any decisions about this rollback you need to think of the Effect between 50 million gone from BTER and the Long term effect of rolling back.

I only found out about this due to 1 of the very projects I have been working on which is same concept as Overstock.com but is of a value in the market place of 10 billion Euros, (10,000,000,000.00 EUR   =   13,365,249,086.46 USD)

i have other smaller projects like this so I ask you to not make desperate decision via fear of loss.

BTER Security has enabled the Loss (IE) not related to NXT platform.

If you do a roll back this could lead to massive backlash in trust and future of NXT

I see the damage this causes for BTER and wha it could do for NXT but this could be played out to NXT advantage as real player in the market and provide proof of the NXT community being able to take a enormous hit.

But BTER and NXT Could actually reverse this to both advantage.

Rolling back the chain means that NXT is not decentralized and show that it can be done the only thing that should not ever be done in Crypto playing with the BlockChain.

You want NXT to be Considered for Overstock.com but if they see the chain can be reversed and sliced and diced NXT is out of the picture NXT value will drop as people will drop ship very fast and the whole work for the Asset Exchange and secure ae and Many other functions like MGW will take the biggest blow of all (TOTAL DISCRIMINATION AGAINST NXT)

I will give you 2 case scenerios

A/

Britain is made up of 4 countries all time for past 1000+years always fighting and still today we are not very keen on each other we are proud of where we come from and we have so much conflict.

BUT you jerk the islands off that 4 states becomes 1 we are not Scottish, Welsh, Irish or English we BRITISH and that's when our internal focus is channeled in 1 direction against the Opponent.

B/

Your whole family hates each other to the bitter end but if your son or daughter is kidnapped what happens?

You suddenly band together to find them no matter what the bad blood is.

What I am saying is yes NXT internally is a real mess but right now it's got the option to join together as 1 and really aim its ambition in the target of 50 million Reasons.

You think this is coincidence tha Klee gets hacked and now BTER is hacked why only 50 million NXT why not BTC there has to be more BTC in BTER than NXT.

How do you know this is not done to hold NXT Ransom or To make the very thing you should not do (Rollback the Blockchain) think of what this actually would achieve if you rolled back the chain

You get 50 million NXT back but what the after effect nxt hits the floor total trust in nxt is out of the window why would anybody use NXT in the Future.

As a person that had to suck up 2 major screw ups in 2 months I ask you to think and look 6 months down the road.

BTER HAS ADMITTED ITS Security issue so right now its 50 million NXT gone but its not NXT error or weakness.

BTER HAS SAID ITS A MASSIVE LOSS TO THEM THAT THEY WONT BE ABLE TO HANDLE so rollback is the logical option but nobody is thinking the after effect.

BTER HAS ALSO SED IT WILL COVER THE LOSS

so lets look an alternative option here that maye take a bit of time and may well be very unpleasant to many people but would mean at last the Community finally has to unite and divert its internal issues to external.

Who has what to gain from this Theft and by the rollback have you guys thought about this??

Anybody chasing the dream of overstock.com and such projects.(you will take NXT out of any playing field instantly)

NXT got the hacker of KLEE to send back funds before why cant you work that way again

Get all exchanges to lock down trades so that blocks the marketplace you put him in a corner.

As for Bter how the option they use the NXT AE make token of 50 million BTERNXT Tokens and distribute them according to NXT accounts that lost and they list the asset on BTER just LIKE NXT

from this BTER to offer dividends on the revenue to help ease the pain in the meantime while fixing then if NX can be recouped fro the hacker bter can swop them for the bter tokens

I have 1 project for the NXT AE and SecureAE that i can pass through BTER and the exchange fees should be devoted to buying back the tokens.

What I am saying is use the ASSET EXCHANGE FOR ITS POTENTIAL as IMF Safety NET

By doing this you will show the crypto world and cryptostock world and most off all(Overstock.com) how resistant and effect NXT and its Community is even with such a hit against it.

Please take this into consideration as you are offering out a safety net an the token can be traded on exchanges just like NXT coin

SHOW THE WORLD HOW NXT USES ITS TOOLS OF ITS TRADE

DO NOT MAKE THE MISTAKE OF ROLLBACK



Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Canaanite on August 15, 2014, 10:41:09 am
Everyone make it clear to Bter that there will be no rollback and they just have to pay the 100btc. We do not owe Bter a rollback.

This is our only option.

Rollback = kills Nxt
Hacker owns 50 million Nxt = kills Nxt

50million nxt are not going to kill Nxt... Its just 5%
Rollback is going to hurt NXT much more
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: devphp on August 15, 2014, 10:41:30 am
Rollback = kills Nxt
Hacker owns 50 million Nxt = kills Nxt

#1 kills NXT
#2 doesn't, only depresses price for a couple of months and helps with distribution.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: cobaltskky on August 15, 2014, 10:42:30 am
so where do we stand?

1. rewind, possible but not the best solution and it getting worser by time.

2. no rewind but we could trace all transactions of the account at least for a while
preventing to spend this nxt. (i would built a custom tracer, no matter how fast he
distribute the funds to other accounts, very quickly, including a json api for exchanges
to poll). this wouldn't work for a very long time but perhaps long enough to hunt
him down with a very big community bounty.

3. deal with him and pay for this lesson.

i prefer 3

+100

+1440

Bter should pay for their mistake, not the NXT community.  I suggest incrementally transferring funds between the parties - Bter pays an amount, TheSir pays sends an amount, etc, until done.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: devphp on August 15, 2014, 10:42:50 am
DO NOT MAKE THE MISTAKE OF ROLLBACK

I skipped right to this line, hope I didn't miss anything important :)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: bitcoinpaul on August 15, 2014, 10:43:19 am
NO ROLLBACK!
ANSWER TO ALL EXCHANGE ISSUES IS HERE!
http://nighttrader.org/

Why doesn't NXT have a cool homepage for AE / MGW?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: cobaltskky on August 15, 2014, 10:43:39 am
Also, agree with Wolf - NO ROLLBACK.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: fredch on August 15, 2014, 10:43:58 am
To the hacker:
please send back 500'000 NXT to BTER since they sent you 1 BTC.
This will initiate the ransom payment, this way you show them that you are willing to get "compensated" by 100 BTC.
Then BTER X BTC , ...
This is the same as the proposed 10BTC for 5 mio NXT, but in smaller increment.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: lezin on August 15, 2014, 10:44:10 am
Change my mind. No rollback !
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 10:44:14 am
Please BTER just give the guy 100btc...you guys already offered 50btc and exposed a huge security flaw with your account...if it happened with another hacker it may be gone permanently. Send back and forth in small increments so both are getting their reward.

"No. 100 BTC. Send me 10 BTC, I send you some NXT until we finish our deal. I don't mind waiting for rollback. I'm just sorry that whole NXT community will have to suffer because your lack of competence."

last message by hacker. Can't post link...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Neomadra on August 15, 2014, 10:44:22 am
"No. 100 BTC. Send me 10 BTC, I send you some NXT until we finish our deal. I don't mind waiting for rollback. I'm just sorry that whole NXT community will have to suffer because your lack of competence."
The hacker means well, so don't play games with him. Imho he has earned these 100 btc for revealing the security issue of bter.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: 3x2 on August 15, 2014, 10:44:42 am
I am in favor of Rollback and this is insane when you leave huge amount of NXT on exchange.

EDIT: after reading some posts i am against Rollback, it will simply destroy NXT reputation.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: vladimirceman91 on August 15, 2014, 10:44:50 am
Yeah I definitely changed my mind, BTER should pay for their security issues, not us...

EDIT: Btw BTERs reputation is probably crushed now, so we should not take risks to crush ours too...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: nzminer on August 15, 2014, 10:45:02 am
Rollback will kill NXT,
Did MT GOX kill Bitcoin? NO
Did Silkroad kill Bitcoin? NO

Will the stolen NXT kill NXT? NO (only BTER perhaps)

This is BTER's problem, not NXT's
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: neozaru on August 15, 2014, 10:45:20 am
Give him some XMR, so he get x unit of untreacable currency for 50M units of traceable (unspendable without risk for him) currency.

Meanwhile you should auto-track his addresses and submit a "blacklist" to users and exchanges, so spending NXT will be difficult for him.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Mexxer on August 15, 2014, 10:45:23 am
"No. 100 BTC. Send me 10 BTC, I send you some NXT until we finish our deal. I don't mind waiting for rollback. I'm just sorry that whole NXT community will have to suffer because your lack of competence."
The hacker means well, so don't play games with him. Imho he has earned these 100 btc for revealing the security issue of bter.

+1440
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: cobaltskky on August 15, 2014, 10:45:31 am
Please BTER just give the guy 100btc...you guys already offered 50btc...

"No. 100 BTC. Send me 10 BTC, I send you some NXT until we finish our deal. I don't mind waiting for rollback. I'm just sorry that whole NXT community will have to suffer because your lack of competence."

last message by hacker. Can't post link...

Sorry to say, I agree with him.  Bter screwed the pooch on this one.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Sebastien256 on August 15, 2014, 10:46:15 am
Give him some XMR, so he get x unit of untreacable currency for 50M units of traceable (unspendable without risk for him) currency.

Meanwhile you should auto-track his addresses and submit a "blacklist" to users and exchanges, so spending NXT will be difficult for him.

the guy want bitcoin.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: cobaltskky on August 15, 2014, 10:46:27 am
"No. 100 BTC. Send me 10 BTC, I send you some NXT until we finish our deal. I don't mind waiting for rollback. I'm just sorry that whole NXT community will have to suffer because your lack of competence."
The hacker means well, so don't play games with him. Imho he has earned these 100 btc for revealing the security issue of bter.

+1440
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Peter2516 on August 15, 2014, 10:46:36 am
Although it's actually forgers 'deciding' by their actions, just like a majority of miners with PoW could 'decide' things, the crypto-community + media will still see it as a community-decision (= centralised = bad).
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: EvilDave on August 15, 2014, 10:46:44 am
https://nxtblocks.info/#section/blockexplorer_messages
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: coolfish on August 15, 2014, 10:46:55 am
We should support the rollback, bring pressure to hackers
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: yassin54 on August 15, 2014, 10:47:23 am
pronostic vote

https://nxtforum.org/news-and-announcements/roll-back-bter-hack-of-50m-nxt/

 :D
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on August 15, 2014, 10:47:34 am
CfB, please describe in detail how to forge a rollback.

Make the decision technically available for those who wish to support that please.

There is not even a vote needed. Forgers can vote by taking action.

I'll publish nxt.jar that must replace the old file. It will do the rest. I'm testing it now.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 10:47:53 am
100 btc.. Medium hit for BTER?

Lets hope its doable
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: youyou on August 15, 2014, 10:48:11 am
1- NO ROLLBACK

2- BTER has to pay the lack of security, not NXT community.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Sebastien256 on August 15, 2014, 10:48:34 am
pronostic vote

https://nxtforum.org/news-and-announcements/roll-back-bter-hack-of-50m-nxt/

 :D

unfortunaly, many have changed idea since they vote and we cannot change vote with this poll +sockpuppet, etc.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: yassin54 on August 15, 2014, 10:48:52 am
Bter send bitcoin
it is a good deal
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 10:49:32 am
wooooo

"considering all our users and the NXT community, we will cover all the users' loss and we will take your 100 BTC offer. 1+9 BTC has already sent to you. Now send NXT back to NXT-R3V3-2S79-F3ZM-BVXKZ ( 11513376607016028001)" - bter
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 10:49:56 am
wooooo

"considering all our users and the NXT community, we will cover all the users' loss and we will take your 100 BTC offer. 1+9 BTC has already sent to you. Now send NXT back to NXT-R3V3-2S79-F3ZM-BVXKZ ( 11513376607016028001)"


 ;D ;D ;D

last message on bter's side
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: nzminer on August 15, 2014, 10:50:00 am
NO ROLLBACK!
ANSWER TO ALL EXCHANGE ISSUES IS HERE!
http://nighttrader.org/

Why doesn't NXT have a cool homepage for AE / MGW?

Its a pretty awesome webpage eh?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: nexern on August 15, 2014, 10:50:04 am
also, some of the nxt committees should maintain an emergency list asap for all
exchanges and major places where deals are done. communication details should include
a near real time path to contact all of them at once.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on August 15, 2014, 10:50:11 am
Can we just tell the hacker to hodl?  ;D

LOL
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 10:50:17 am
get'r done bter
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: yassin54 on August 15, 2014, 10:50:21 am
pronostic vote

https://nxtforum.org/news-and-announcements/roll-back-bter-hack-of-50m-nxt/

 :D

unfortunaly, many have changed idea since they vote and we cannot change vote with this poll +sockpuppet, etc.

me too
i have vote yes but now it is No
us need vote system  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: galeki on August 15, 2014, 10:50:26 am
Any one notice that the whole thing is a 5% attack of NXT?

If we do the rollback, the attack succeeds.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Nikki_D on August 15, 2014, 10:50:31 am
I remember MintPal did the same with Vericoin

After Mintpal did the roll back with Vericoin, it's pretty much fallen of the map and the value of the coin has plummetted!  It more than likely that a rollback will do the same thing to NXT.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: devphp on August 15, 2014, 10:50:34 am
I'll publish nxt.jar that must replace the old file. It will do the rest. I'm testing it now.

Good opportunity for stress-testing the system, eh? )
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Mexxer on August 15, 2014, 10:50:50 am
http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=1998773042441769982

Thank god! You made the right decision BTER!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: vladimirceman91 on August 15, 2014, 10:50:52 am
BTER please don't be idiots and request the return of your funds to the same account...

Make another safe account...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: coinomat on August 15, 2014, 10:51:10 am
Actually what sense does it make to vote if people with large NXT balances are to decide?
Guys tread lightly, much better is persuading BTER to deal with the hacker.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: cobaltskky on August 15, 2014, 10:52:27 am
http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=1998773042441769982

Thank god! You made the right decision BTER!

YES
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: xcn on August 15, 2014, 10:52:42 am
NO ROLLBACK!
ANSWER TO ALL EXCHANGE ISSUES IS HERE!
http://nighttrader.org/

Why doesn't NXT have a cool homepage for AE / MGW?

SecureAE.com,  no?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: NxtSwe on August 15, 2014, 10:53:01 am
Lol, negotiations ongoing:

http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=6345870878726622463
Quote
send all NXT back to NXT-R3V3-2S79-F3ZM-BVXKZ or the stolen address now. Leave a BTC address for 10BTC. You can go with what you have otherwise, a rollback will happen in minutes and we are going to take all our power and publish a huge bounty to take you down. We promise.

replies:
http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=17475474505212752592
Quote
lol. than i leak your all md5 passwords. 10btc you kidding me ?

http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=4513229515670407694
Quote
good luck ;)

http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=11975898962099438277
Quote
1 BTC sent. Now it's your turn to return the NXT and we will give the left.

Replies:
http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=7944053710644713071
Quote
left what? I don't need your lousy 10BTC

http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=18047323490480277591
Quote
100 btc, than we're talking. otherwise, let it do the rollback.

More negotiations:

http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=13326416512401753963
BTER: old passwords are all changed already. we don't mind. you have minutes to decide. 50 BTC or rollback starts

http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=15960048393815813238
BTER: 1 of 50 BTC sent. Now send the NXT back the the stolen account.

http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=2799156761737955102
Hacker: No. 100 BTC. Send me 10 BTC, I send you some NXT until we finish our deal. I don't mind waiting for rollback. I'm just sorry that whole NXT community will have to suffer because your lack of competence.

http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=1998773042441769982
BTER: considering all our users and the NXT community, we will cover all the users' loss and we will take your 100 BTC offer. 1+9 BTC has already sent to you. Now send NXT back to NXT-R3V3-2S79-F3ZM-BVXKZ ( 11513376607016028001)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: swartzfeger on August 15, 2014, 10:53:07 am
http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=1998773042441769982 (http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=1998773042441769982)

Thank god! You made the right decision BTER!


Wow. Not having 2FA is an expensive lesson.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: megashira1 on August 15, 2014, 10:53:11 am
Upon the transfer of the last portion of 10btc the hacker will keep the btc, and the remaining 5 million NXT.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: vytasz7 on August 15, 2014, 10:53:22 am
now lets hope hacker sends it back
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: landomata on August 15, 2014, 10:53:29 am
also, some of the nxt committees should maintain an emergency list asap for all
exchanges and major places where deals are done. communication details should include
a near real time path to contact all of them at once.
+1  very good advise.

Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: thebutterfly on August 15, 2014, 10:53:39 am
For the record, do NOT roll back the

A third party (Bter) was compromised, and we are considering compromising NXT by rolling back the blockchain? This makes little sense in my humble opinion.

1. If Bter returns stolen crypto to a crypto-community, it helps their image and business.
2. If a decentralized crypto currency manipulates its block chain in any way, it Harmfully impacts the integrity of it's platform and service -- and raises the severe issue of "moral hasard" at the community level.

You cannot equate these two scenarios. One cannot be used as a basis to justify the other.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: zuqka on August 15, 2014, 10:53:42 am
Been refreshing this site from my mobile like madman....wise decision from Bter. Now lets see if the thief has Robin Hood's honor!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: whale on August 15, 2014, 10:53:52 am
That was the right choice. Thank you Bter. Hopefully this breach makes Bter more cautious about their security...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: yassin54 on August 15, 2014, 10:54:04 am
http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=1998773042441769982

Thank god! You made the right decision BTER!

good reflexion Bter
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: qbd1313 on August 15, 2014, 10:54:19 am
now lets hope hacker sends it back
come on
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: landomata on August 15, 2014, 10:54:29 am
Any one notice that the whole thing is a 5% attack of NXT?

If we do the rollback, the attack succeeds.

really clever attack
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: cobaltskky on August 15, 2014, 10:54:34 am
Upon the transfer of the last portion of 10btc the hacker will keep the btc, and the remaining 5 million NXT.

Oh well.  Good enough. lol
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: lucky88888 on August 15, 2014, 10:54:38 am
OMG 100btc. THANK YOU HACKER!!
BTer SHOW US THAT YOU CAN TAKE SUCH LOSS! unfortuneate but..


Quote
https://nxtblocks.info/#section/blockexplorer_messages
BRING OUT THE POPCORN!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on August 15, 2014, 10:54:45 am
A possible solution, that I have not seen mentioned:

Someone remove that 50M transaction from the NXT database, instead transfer them to another account that is held by a trusted NXT user (J-Luc, C-f-B, or whatever) so they in turn can give it back to BTER.

Publish this new database file so forgers can download it and replace with their own.

Positive stuff:
+ Only the thief should be affected, all other transactions will be executed.

Negative stuff:
- I guess it will be a hard fork between forgers who don't use modified db file.

There might be better ways of executing it (publish a open source script/executable that removes rows from db instead of a completely new db).

I will never support a total rollback, in the long run, as I believe it will hurt NXT community more than it helps.

No way. Rollback within 720 blocks is considered a blockchain reorganization that is allowed by the protocol. Ur proposal is abusing the power.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: devphp on August 15, 2014, 10:55:00 am
Hacker sent first 5m.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Raphhhhh on August 15, 2014, 10:55:20 am
Thanks bter, good decision !
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 10:55:25 am
hopefully the hacker is sincere in his talk of actually returning the goods.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: lucky88888 on August 15, 2014, 10:55:59 am
OMG 100btc. THANK YOU HACKER!!
BTer SHOW US THAT YOU CAN TAKE SUCH LOSS! unfortuneate but..


Quote
https://nxtblocks.info/#section/blockexplorer_messages
BRING OUT THE POPCORN!

ITS HAPPENING 10MIL OUT!!

CLAPS CLAPS!!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Neomadra on August 15, 2014, 10:57:50 am
hallejuliah, this is going to restore my faith in humanity! The hacker started to return the NXTs. :o
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Peter2516 on August 15, 2014, 10:58:12 am

No way. Rollback within 720 blocks is considered a blockchain reorganization that is allowed by the protocol.

Can you explain in layman's terms why that is? :)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: EvilDave on August 15, 2014, 10:58:26 am
also, some of the nxt committees should maintain an emergency list asap for all
exchanges and major places where deals are done. communication details should include
a near real time path to contact all of them at once.

+1440
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: devphp on August 15, 2014, 10:58:55 am
hallejuliah, this is going to restore my faith in humanity! The hacker started to return the NXTs. :o

heh, what does it have to do with faith in humanity?
Actually the question now is - will users keep storing their NXTs at exchanges or withdraw?
If I were to bet, I'd bet on 'they will keep storing at exchanges'.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: megashira1 on August 15, 2014, 10:59:30 am
Be careful upon the closure of the deal. At X juncture may make more sense for hacker to keep NXT than to receive BTC.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: lezin on August 15, 2014, 10:59:49 am
HitBTC seems great :)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Mexxer on August 15, 2014, 11:00:19 am
(http://media0.giphy.com/media/5VMNcCxVBibZK/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: lucky88888 on August 15, 2014, 11:00:23 am
hallejuliah, this is going to restore my faith in humanity! The hacker started to return the NXTs. :o

not return but bter negotiate exchange to btc.
best choice.
nxt price stays. hacker gets btc. community is safe from loss.

WIN FOR ALL. IM GOING TO STAY UP ALL NIGHT LOOKING AT THIS EPIC history in the MAKING.
STAY UP UNTIL ALL FUNDS RETURNED.

NEEDS MORE POPCORN!!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 11:00:38 am
hallejuliah, this is going to restore my faith in humanity! The hacker started to return the NXTs. :o

heh, what does it have to do with faith in humanity?
Actually the question now is - will users keep storing their NXTs at exchanges or withdraw?
If I were to bet, I'd bet on 'they will keep storing at exchanges'.

0,5% fee :(
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: cobaltskky on August 15, 2014, 11:00:42 am
OMG 100btc. THANK YOU HACKER!!
BTer SHOW US THAT YOU CAN TAKE SUCH LOSS! unfortuneate but..


Quote
https://nxtblocks.info/#section/blockexplorer_messages
BRING OUT THE POPCORN!

ITS HAPPENING 10MIL OUT!!

CLAPS CLAPS!!


(http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111222140534/uncyclopedia/images/b/bf/Audience-clapping.gif)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: TimmyD on August 15, 2014, 11:00:46 am
So guys where can i learn hacking seems to pay well
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: xyzzyx on August 15, 2014, 11:00:53 am
BTER has in the past come to the aid of the Nxt community when community and individual funds were at risk or lost.  If it was other exchange I would say no.

I say yes to BTER: we should fix their loss.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Sebastien256 on August 15, 2014, 11:00:59 am
Be careful upon the closure of the deal. At X juncture may make more sense for hacker to keep NXT than to receive BTC.

end of the deal (last 10btc) should be done in increment of 2btc or something.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: devphp on August 15, 2014, 11:01:50 am
hallejuliah, this is going to restore my faith in humanity! The hacker started to return the NXTs. :o

heh, what does it have to do with faith in humanity?
Actually the question now is - will users keep storing their NXTs at exchanges or withdraw?
If I were to bet, I'd bet on 'they will keep storing at exchanges'.

0,5% fee :(

Don't be so greedy. We're expecting NXT to appreciate much more than that, don't we? 0.5% fee is peanuts.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: qbd1313 on August 15, 2014, 11:01:59 am
hacker did not sent 5M to bter? :'(
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: cobaltskky on August 15, 2014, 11:02:08 am
This is history making for Bter and NXT.  In the long run, this will make both of us look better. :)  NXT for not rolling back, Bter for making good to their customers.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: LiQio on August 15, 2014, 11:02:21 am
Be careful upon the closure of the deal. At X juncture may make more sense for hacker to keep NXT than to receive BTC.

end of the deal (last 10btc) should be done in increment of 2btc or something.
+1
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: devphp on August 15, 2014, 11:02:40 am
hacker did not sent 5M to bter? :'(
He did, it's in pending txs, block still not forged.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: landomata on August 15, 2014, 11:02:55 am
BTER has in the past come to the aid of the Nxt community when community and individual funds were at risk or lost.  If it was other exchange I would say no.

I say yes to BTER: we should fix their loss.

I agree with you....but we can't kill ourself to destroy a very bad flu.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 11:03:26 am
Be careful upon the closure of the deal. At X juncture may make more sense for hacker to keep NXT than to receive BTC.

end of the deal (last 10btc) should be done in increment of 2btc or something.
+1

agree

hopefully bter is listening...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: instacash on August 15, 2014, 11:03:31 am
So NXT-7LB8-8ZPX-3YR9-3L85B (http://blocks.nxtcrypto.org/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=3000&acc=1480789515119544614) generated the 50000 fee block of the initial 50m theft transaction? :D

Quote from: https://nxtblocks.info/#section/blockexplorer_messages
considering all our users and the NXT community, we will cover all the users' loss and we will take your 100 BTC offer. 1+9 BTC has already sent to you. Now send NXT back to NXT-R3V3-2S79-F3ZM-BVXKZ ( 11513376607016028001)   2014-08-15 11:45:40
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: lucky88888 on August 15, 2014, 11:03:36 am
,....

No way. Rollback within 720 blocks is considered a blockchain reorganization that is allowed by the protocol. Ur proposal is abusing the power.

unfortunately, this may be true and perfectly decentralised BUT EVERYONE IN THE COMPETITION WILL NO ACCEPT AND WILL BE A PERNAMENT STAIN FOR NXT.

HACKER accepts 100btc for the returns and IM HAPPY FOR THIS!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: BitcoinForumator on August 15, 2014, 11:03:40 am
So all the while the thief is here, reading all of this and chewing his bubblegum.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: cobaltskky on August 15, 2014, 11:04:09 am
BTER has in the past come to the aid of the Nxt community when community and individual funds were at risk or lost.  If it was other exchange I would say no.

I say yes to BTER: we should fix their loss.

I agree with you....but we can't kill ourself to destroy a very bad flu.

It would be nice to compensate them somehow for their assistance in the past.  Not in whole, but in part.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: devphp on August 15, 2014, 11:04:24 am
So NXT-7LB8-8ZPX-3YR9-3L85B (http://blocks.nxtcrypto.org/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=3000&acc=1480789515119544614) generated the 50000 fee block of the initial 50m theft transaction? :D

lucky strike :)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: thesircom on August 15, 2014, 11:04:28 am
So all the while the thief is here, reading all of this and chewing his bubblegum.

How did you know about the bubblegum ?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 11:04:31 am
So NXT-7LB8-8ZPX-3YR9-3L85B (http://blocks.nxtcrypto.org/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=3000&acc=1480789515119544614) generated the 50000 fee block of the initial 50m theft transaction? :D

luck guy...free $1700 block of which we may not see again for a long time...lol
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: lucky88888 on August 15, 2014, 11:04:39 am
So NXT-7LB8-8ZPX-3YR9-3L85B (http://blocks.nxtcrypto.org/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=3000&acc=1480789515119544614) generated the 50000 fee block of the initial 50m theft transaction? :D

HAHAHA HAPPY DAY FOR HIM!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: landomata on August 15, 2014, 11:04:55 am
BTER has in the past come to the aid of the Nxt community when community and individual funds were at risk or lost.  If it was other exchange I would say no.

I say yes to BTER: we should fix their loss.

I agree with you....but we can't kill ourself to destroy a very bad flu.

It would be nice to compensate them somehow for their assistance in the past.  Not in whole, but in part.

We keep giving them business...but they need to improve security.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 11:04:58 am
So all the while the thief is here, reading all of this and chewing his bubblegum.

How did you know about the bubblegum ?

hello hacker :)

ps...please follow through on your end :)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: cobaltskky on August 15, 2014, 11:05:01 am
So all the while the thief is here, reading all of this and chewing his bubblegum.

https://nxtforum.org/assets-board/(ann)(micoin)the-most-interesting-coin-in-the-world-pure-90-pom/msg82040/#msg82040
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: lucky88888 on August 15, 2014, 11:05:16 am
So all the while the thief is here, reading all of this and chewing his bubblegum.

How did you know about the bubblegum ?

OMG ITS YOU!!  :D

THANKS FOR AGREEING TO THE NEGOTIATION!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: vladimirceman91 on August 15, 2014, 11:06:53 am
So all the while the thief is here, reading all of this and chewing his bubblegum.

How did you know about the bubblegum ?

The Dark Knight is here! :D
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: megashira1 on August 15, 2014, 11:06:58 am
This is not over yet. Not a time to celebrate. Let's see what the hacker does.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: thesircom on August 15, 2014, 11:07:04 am
oh my... looks like he screwed himself with all these delays.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Neomadra on August 15, 2014, 11:07:09 am
hallejuliah, this is going to restore my faith in humanity! The hacker started to return the NXTs. :o

heh, what does it have to do with faith in humanity?
Actually the question now is - will users keep storing their NXTs at exchanges or withdraw?
If I were to bet, I'd bet on 'they will keep storing at exchanges'.

Yeah I guess so, too. When people didn't learn from Gox, they'll probably never learn.
With restoring faith I meant that the hacker does the right thing instead of trying to get away and dump the NXTs. But of course this shouldn't be even possible and that's also the reason for a decentralized currency. That one has not to trust in the good will of other people.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: youyou on August 15, 2014, 11:07:16 am
Did people considering a rollback LOST THEIR MIND ???

The pressure was on BTER not on us. If BTER didn't cover the loss, it was done of their business.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: lucky88888 on August 15, 2014, 11:09:53 am
oh my... looks like he screwed himself with all these delays.

Please stay patient. only 10batches of 10btc.
Please. or nxt will be worthless. and you can't dump it when its worth 0. everyone one else will suffer.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: BitcoinForumator on August 15, 2014, 11:10:05 am
So all the while the thief is here, reading all of this and chewing his bubblegum.

How did you know about the bubblegum ?

OMG ITS YOU!!  :D

THANKS FOR AGREEING TO THE NEGOTIATION!

It's not him, it's CfB.

Messaging back and forth between Bter, then thief said:

"lol. than i leak your all md5 passwords. 10btc you kidding me ?"

CfB always uses "u".
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Tiger on August 15, 2014, 11:10:21 am
(http://img.pandawhale.com/post-29966-ITS-HAPPENING-gif-Ron-Paul-HD-xThK.gif)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: yassin54 on August 15, 2014, 11:10:29 am
So all the while the thief is here, reading all of this and chewing his bubblegum.

How did you know about the bubblegum ?

hacker marocco   ;D ;D ;D
welcome
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Sebastien256 on August 15, 2014, 11:10:35 am
hehe some block fee are high at the moment.. lol
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: instacash on August 15, 2014, 11:11:00 am
CfB always uses "u".

so does "CfA" and thousands of other people
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: lucky88888 on August 15, 2014, 11:11:57 am
this
Quote
https://blockchain.info/address/13UZjKkhHWyTmQ4mx28WT5Wj1zw4pEByZw

and this
Quote
https://nxtblocks.info/#section/blockexplorer_messages

will be in a movie one day.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on August 15, 2014, 11:12:47 am
Can't believe that you CfB suggest something any about rollback of blockchain! Dont your account get hacked too?

Hehe, personally I'm against rollback. But if I don't release a special version of NRS that allows rollback then it will mean that I made a centralized decision not to do the rollback. By publishing the special NRS I'll follow principles of decentralization by giving the forgers a choice.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Sebastien256 on August 15, 2014, 11:13:41 am
Can't believe that you CfB suggest something any about rollback of blockchain! Dont your account get hacked too?

Hehe, personally I'm against rollback. But if I don't release a special version of NRS that allows rollback then it will mean that I made a centralized decision not to do the rollback. By publishing the special NRS I'll follow principles of decentralization.

that is what I tought about you cfB
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: megashira1 on August 15, 2014, 11:14:03 am
DO NOT DEAL IN LARGER INCRIMENTS.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: devphp on August 15, 2014, 11:14:27 am
But if I don't release a special version of NRS that allows rollback then it will mean that I made a centralized decision not to do the rollback.

Not doing anything and letting events unfold on their own is quite decentralized... I think :)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: lucky88888 on August 15, 2014, 11:14:40 am
 
Can't believe that you CfB suggest something any about rollback of blockchain! Dont your account get hacked too?

Hehe, personally I'm against rollback. But if I don't release a special version of NRS that allows rollback then it will mean that I made a centralized decision not to do the rollback. By publishing the special NRS I'll follow principles of decentralization by giving the forgers a choice.

we don't need to publish this if the negotiation goes through.
or we might fudge it up and still have people trying to forge the non hacked after deal is done.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Breasal on August 15, 2014, 11:16:12 am
Bter's apparent new transfer to account:

NXT-R3V3-2S79-F3ZM-BVXKZ
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: lucky88888 on August 15, 2014, 11:16:36 am
MR or MRS HACKER.
You can trust BTER to send 2nd too. LIKE THEY SAID its public and they have a reputation to keep the business going.

oh my... looks like he screwed himself with all these delays.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: abctc on August 15, 2014, 11:17:35 am
[quote WolfofCryptoTXTCoinsNow link=topic=4444.msg82046#msg82046 date=1408099261]
...[/quote]

Why there is no "Ignore" button at this forum?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 11:17:50 am
Lol please use a low tx fee
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Sebastien256 on August 15, 2014, 11:18:07 am
MR or MRS HACKER.
You can trust BTER to send 2nd too. LIKE THEY SAID its public and they have a reputation to keep the business going.

oh my... looks like he screwed himself with all these delays.

yes of course, hacker can send first. Obviously Bter will take on his promise.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: whale on August 15, 2014, 11:18:24 am
So... How low is everyone putting their buy orders?   :P
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on August 15, 2014, 11:20:24 am
This is not a technical matter, it's a matter of principle.

Ok, in this case we have to rely on forgers. We have to rely on them anyway coz NRS is open source and can be changed by them as they wish.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: shin on August 15, 2014, 11:20:29 am
https://nxtblocks.info/#section/blockexplorer_messages

Oh, FFS, BTCs have been sent... ROLLBACK is NO LONGER AN OPTION at this point.
I've changed my decision, but the vote is casted :(
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: lucky88888 on August 15, 2014, 11:20:33 am
im going to set buy orders at 0.00005 if this deal goes through fine.
if not. im going to set orders at 0.00000001 just to buy some for memory.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: megashira1 on August 15, 2014, 11:20:56 am
LAST 10MILLION OF THE DEAL HACKER SHOULD SEND FIRST SO HE DOES NOT RUN.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Mexxer on August 15, 2014, 11:21:09 am
So... How low is everyone putting their buy orders?   :P

Isn't that the question of the day...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: lucky88888 on August 15, 2014, 11:23:01 am
Quote
https://nxtblocks.info/#section/accountId/NXT-R3V3-2S79-F3ZM-BVXKZ

Quote
https://nxtblocks.info/#section/blockexplorer_messages

Quote
https://blockchain.info/address/13UZjKkhHWyTmQ4mx28WT5Wj1zw4pEByZw

Whats happening the the negotiation. Not moving!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Peter2516 on August 15, 2014, 11:23:54 am
Would this finally make a NXT/multigateway article on Coindesk? ;)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: cobaltskky on August 15, 2014, 11:24:08 am
Bter needs to send more money...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Sebastien256 on August 15, 2014, 11:24:25 am
YEs last 10BTC should be sent by the hackers. Good idea. Bter, plz continue to send BTC, this is taking too long, it should not.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: cobaltskky on August 15, 2014, 11:24:41 am
Would this finally make a NXT/multigateway article on Coindesk? ;)

Good publicity for using decentralized exchanges. ;)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: bcdev on August 15, 2014, 11:25:00 am
So guys where can i learn hacking seems to pay well
Hacking For Dummies (http://www.amazon.com/Hacking-For-Dummies-Kevin-Beaver/dp/1118380932)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: thesircom on August 15, 2014, 11:25:16 am
Okay, Guys - Let me apologise - but the deal is off.

I'm not going to stay here for hours waiting for him to send the bitcoins. I been almost hour since the first batch of NXT was sent to him, I'm not going to stay hours waiting for his send batch of his bitcoins.

I got  things to do, than sit around and wait.

Lets see if the one exchanges lack of impenitence will ruin whole NXT community.

Good luck, all!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Mexxer on August 15, 2014, 11:25:23 am
"So, what taking so long? Send me the next batch already. I'm going to leave soon. It's already 2 hours of negotiation, it took me 1 hour to clean your whole exchanger. BTC 500+ I'm not going to sit here, and wait 2 more hours for you to decide to send the lousy 10 BTC."

http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=8949490421422923694
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Sebastien256 on August 15, 2014, 11:25:41 am
Would this finally make a NXT/multigateway article on Coindesk? ;)

Good publicity for using decentralized exchanges. ;)

unfortunally, at the moment, MGW is centralized in one hand until phaser is implemented.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: bitcoinpaul on August 15, 2014, 11:26:20 am
God help us all.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Sebastien256 on August 15, 2014, 11:26:35 am
Okay, Guys - Let me apologise - but the deal is off.

I'm not going to stay here for hours waiting for him to send the bitcoins. I been almost hour since the first batch of NXT was sent to him, I'm not going to stay hours waiting for his send batch of his bitcoins.

I got  things to do, than sit around and wait.

Lets see if the one exchanges lack of impenitence will ruin whole NXT community.

Good luck, all!

I think you can be more patient. This will be settle im sure of that.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Cassius on August 15, 2014, 11:26:42 am
Okay, Guys - Let me apologise - but the deal is off.

I'm not going to stay here for hours waiting for him to send the bitcoins. I been almost hour since the first batch of NXT was sent to him, I'm not going to stay hours waiting for his send batch of his bitcoins.

I got  things to do, than sit around and wait.

Lets see if the one exchanges lack of impenitence will ruin whole NXT community.

Good luck, all!

Can we get a statement from BTER before you head to bed?
BTER, is there a holdup?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: yassin54 on August 15, 2014, 11:27:26 am
DO NOT DEAL IN LARGER INCRIMENTS.
bter decide
not communauty
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Mexxer on August 15, 2014, 11:27:44 am
Okay, Guys - Let me apologise - but the deal is off.

I'm not going to stay here for hours waiting for him to send the bitcoins. I been almost hour since the first batch of NXT was sent to him, I'm not going to stay hours waiting for his send batch of his bitcoins.

I got  things to do, than sit around and wait.

Lets see if the one exchanges lack of impenitence will ruin whole NXT community.

Good luck, all!

Please rethink your decision. BTER comes through with their promise.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Sebastien256 on August 15, 2014, 11:28:19 am
yeah they just sent 20btc.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Breasal on August 15, 2014, 11:29:14 am
"Deal is off. good night."

https://nxtblocks.info/#section/blockexplorer_messages
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: lucky88888 on August 15, 2014, 11:29:29 am
Okay, Guys - Let me apologise - but the deal is off.

I'm not going to stay here for hours waiting for him to send the bitcoins. I been almost hour since the first batch of NXT was sent to him, I'm not going to stay hours waiting for his send batch of his bitcoins.

I got  things to do, than sit around and wait.

Lets see if the one exchanges lack of impenitence will ruin whole NXT community.

Good luck, all!

Don't do this. You will ruin lots of families! You will ruin decentralization too! PLEASE!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: megashira1 on August 15, 2014, 11:29:56 am
Okay, Guys - Let me apologise - but the deal is off.

I'm not going to stay here for hours waiting for him to send the bitcoins. I been almost hour since the first batch of NXT was sent to him, I'm not going to stay hours waiting for his send batch of his bitcoins.

I got  things to do, than sit around and wait.

Lets see if the one exchanges lack of impenitence will ruin whole NXT community.

Good luck, all!

THE HACKER IS BLUFFING. HE WANTS YOU TO SEND IN LARGER INCRIMENTS BEFORE HE RUNS. HE IS SCHEMING BE CAREFUL
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Jacinto on August 15, 2014, 11:30:12 am
Okay, Guys - Let me apologise - but the deal is off.

I'm not going to stay here for hours waiting for him to send the bitcoins. I been almost hour since the first batch of NXT was sent to him, I'm not going to stay hours waiting for his send batch of his bitcoins.

I got  things to do, than sit around and wait.

Lets see if the one exchanges lack of impenitence will ruin whole NXT community.

Good luck, all!

Wtf! You are earning near 50000$ for your 1hour work. Give them time!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: TimmyD on August 15, 2014, 11:30:16 am
Great so the faggot gets btc for his stolen nxt which he didnt have to bother exchanging and now keeps the rest of the nxt
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: yassin54 on August 15, 2014, 11:30:26 am
Okay, Guys - Let me apologise - but the deal is off.

I'm not going to stay here for hours waiting for him to send the bitcoins. I been almost hour since the first batch of NXT was sent to him, I'm not going to stay hours waiting for his send batch of his bitcoins.

I got  things to do, than sit around and wait.

Lets see if the one exchanges lack of impenitence will ruin whole NXT community.

Good luck, all!

https://blockchain.info/address/13UZjKkhHWyTmQ4mx28WT5Wj1zw4pEByZw
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 11:30:31 am
Okay, Guys - Let me apologise - but the deal is off.

I'm not going to stay here for hours waiting for him to send the bitcoins. I been almost hour since the first batch of NXT was sent to him, I'm not going to stay hours waiting for his send batch of his bitcoins.

I got  things to do, than sit around and wait.

Lets see if the one exchanges lack of impenitence will ruin whole NXT community.

Good luck, all!

Got to be more patient. You guys just finalized the deal and transactions are not instant.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: whale on August 15, 2014, 11:31:04 am
Okay, Guys - Let me apologise - but the deal is off.

I'm not going to stay here for hours waiting for him to send the bitcoins. I been almost hour since the first batch of NXT was sent to him, I'm not going to stay hours waiting for his send batch of his bitcoins.

I got  things to do, than sit around and wait.

Lets see if the one exchanges lack of impenitence will ruin whole NXT community.

Good luck, all!

THE HACKER IS BLUFFING. HE WANTS YOU TO SEND IN LARGER INCRIMENTS BEFORE HE RUNS. HE IS SCHEMING BE CAREFUL

It probably isn't even night where he is
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: lucky88888 on August 15, 2014, 11:31:48 am
Okay, Guys - Let me apologise - but the deal is off.

I'm not going to stay here for hours waiting for him to send the bitcoins. I been almost hour since the first batch of NXT was sent to him, I'm not going to stay hours waiting for his send batch of his bitcoins.

I got  things to do, than sit around and wait.

Lets see if the one exchanges lack of impenitence will ruin whole NXT community.

Good luck, all!


Give us nxt community a chance.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 11:32:15 am
He cant dump 50M NXT.
 He wants btc!

We  are in charge
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Mexxer on August 15, 2014, 11:32:20 am
I suggest a major bounty to catch the hacker if the deal doesn't go through!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Peter2516 on August 15, 2014, 11:32:28 am

It probably isn't even night where he is

Or she... :P
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: megashira1 on August 15, 2014, 11:32:39 am
BTERs panicing. He's now going to threaten to run and demand more BTC.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: yassin54 on August 15, 2014, 11:32:50 am
Okay, Guys - Let me apologise - but the deal is off.

I'm not going to stay here for hours waiting for him to send the bitcoins. I been almost hour since the first batch of NXT was sent to him, I'm not going to stay hours waiting for his send batch of his bitcoins.

I got  things to do, than sit around and wait.

Lets see if the one exchanges lack of impenitence will ruin whole NXT community.

Good luck, all!

THE HACKER IS BLUFFING. HE WANTS YOU TO SEND IN LARGER INCRIMENTS BEFORE HE RUNS. HE IS SCHEMING BE CAREFUL

It probably isn't even night where he is
hours Morocco   ;D ;D ;D
work all night
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 11:32:54 am
So...what now? Bter lost 20btc or so and I believe got a little bit of nxt. and the hacker ran away with the rest.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: thebutterfly on August 15, 2014, 11:33:05 am
It's shocking to see that such a big percentage of the NXT community doesn't clearly grasp the reality that, "rolling back the block chain will quite literally kill NXT forever."

A community EDUCATION EFFORT is needed to inform Nxters on the irreversible, damning consequences of manually rolling back the block chain.

It has completely shaken me that this option was even on the table, given that Bter was at fault, not NXT.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: TimmyD on August 15, 2014, 11:34:09 am
So whats the plan then 25million nxt bounty on his worthless body
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: qbd1313 on August 15, 2014, 11:34:35 am
Okay, Guys - Let me apologise - but the deal is off.

I'm not going to stay here for hours waiting for him to send the bitcoins. I been almost hour since the first batch of NXT was sent to him, I'm not going to stay hours waiting for his send batch of his bitcoins.

I got  things to do, than sit around and wait.

Lets see if the one exchanges lack of impenitence will ruin whole NXT community.

Good luck, all!

I think you can be more patient. This will be settle im sure of that.
+1
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: megashira1 on August 15, 2014, 11:35:57 am
REMIND THE HACKER THAT HE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO CASHOUT HIS NXT FOR BTC IF HE DOES NOT FOLLOW THROUGH, AND WILL EFFECTIVELY BE DESTROYING HIS INVESTMENT IF HE DOES NOT COMPLY TO THE AGREEMENT. IT'S IN HIS BEST INTEREST.

 
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ralphvd on August 15, 2014, 11:36:03 am
Hmm i think i will sell all my NXT as fast as i can and i will look for some other options.

What about Blackcoin?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: bitcoinpaul on August 15, 2014, 11:36:44 am
Hmm i think i will sell all my NXT as fast as i can and i will look for some other options.

What about Blackcoin?

Doge!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Nikki_D on August 15, 2014, 11:37:32 am
Hmm i think i will sell all my NXT as fast as i can and i will look for some other options.

What about Blackcoin?

Go fuck yourself Ralphvd!!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Cassius on August 15, 2014, 11:38:01 am
Hmm i think i will sell all my NXT as fast as i can and i will look for some other options.

What about Blackcoin?

Welcome from the Blackcoin forums. You may need to pick up some NXT before you sell it though.
Can I suggest MGW? It's an excellent platform with increasing liquidity.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: xcn on August 15, 2014, 11:38:37 am
Hmm i think i will sell all my NXT as fast as i can and i will look for some other options.

What about Blackcoin?

disappear, please.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: landomata on August 15, 2014, 11:39:05 am
Hmm i think i will sell all my NXT as fast as i can and i will look for some other options.

What about Blackcoin?

Go f**k yourself Ralphvd!!
+1
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Berzerk on August 15, 2014, 11:39:08 am
Hmm i think i will sell all my NXT as fast as i can and i will look for some other options.

What about Blackcoin?

Go fuck yourself Ralphvd!!

Please refrain yourself from swearing. Thank you. :)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: EvilDave on August 15, 2014, 11:39:57 am
Chill the fuck out, everyone.
please....

BTER and TheSir should stick to the plan.......10btc/5 millionNXT per increment.

If this falls apart, there are still options, including enough time for a rollback.
If TheSir runs.....he'll end up getting rollbacked or traced or....so it's in his best interests to clear this up now.
BTER also need to step and get moving, BitCoin is slow, but not that slow.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: zuqka on August 15, 2014, 11:40:05 am
God help us all.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Jacinto on August 15, 2014, 11:40:17 am
So much this:

REMIND THE HACKER THAT HE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO CASHOUT HIS NXT FOR BTC IF HE DOES NOT FOLLOW THROUGH, AND WILL EFFECTIVELY BE DESTROYING HIS INVESTMENT IF HE DOES NOT COMPLY TO THE AGREEMENT. IT'S IN HIS BEST INTEREST.


He is just playing his game.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: whale on August 15, 2014, 11:40:53 am
So whats the plan then 25million nxt bounty on his worthless body

I think we need to start organizing a bounty. I'm sure Bter will help.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: cobaltskky on August 15, 2014, 11:41:22 am
Hmm i think i will sell all my NXT as fast as i can and i will look for some other options.

What about Blackcoin?

Go fuck yourself Ralphvd!!

+1440 effings
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: bitcoinpaul on August 15, 2014, 11:42:30 am
Guys, relax. It's only virtual money, right?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Mexxer on August 15, 2014, 11:42:38 am
So whats the plan then 25million nxt bounty on his worthless body

I think we need to start organizing a bounty. I'm sure Bter will help.

Yup I might even pledge a major portion of my stolen Nxt if the deal doesn't go through and it comes to a bounty!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Meizirkki on August 15, 2014, 11:42:48 am
Why is CfB the man of strong opinion so subtle on this one? Am I wrong to assume NXT devs WANT the rollback, when they are to provide a .jar that does it all for you?

Why do devs encourage something so serious? A fork of the main chain is out of the question.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Breasal on August 15, 2014, 11:42:56 am
He cant dump 50M NXT.
 He wants btc!

We  are in charge

+1
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: TimmyD on August 15, 2014, 11:43:11 am
The bounty should be 100btc its euf or the worthless scumbag will claim the bounty like before
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: valarmg on August 15, 2014, 11:43:24 am
Hmm i think i will sell all my NXT as fast as i can and i will look for some other options.

What about Blackcoin?

Just got a strange compulsion to dump all my blackcoins.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: HolgerD77 on August 15, 2014, 11:44:36 am
Okay, Guys - Let me apologise - but the deal is off.

I'm not going to stay here for hours waiting for him to send the bitcoins. I been almost hour since the first batch of NXT was sent to him, I'm not going to stay hours waiting for his send batch of his bitcoins.

I got  things to do, than sit around and wait.

Lets see if the one exchanges lack of impenitence will ruin whole NXT community.

Good luck, all!


Give us nxt community a chance.

♫♫ "...All we are say-ying..., is give NXT a chance (give NXT a chance)..., all we are.." ♫♫♫

(http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view7/4883985/sister-act-o.gif)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: devphp on August 15, 2014, 11:45:30 am
It's NXT's first and last chance to show that NXT is no worse than Bitcoin and doesn't do rollbacks.
Do not download the modified nxt.jar from CfB
CfB is against rollback, he said, but he has to offer a choice, like Morpheus, blue pill or red pill.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: xcn on August 15, 2014, 11:46:08 am
Guys, relax. It's only virtual money, right?

Nope, its our future!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: alex0909 on August 15, 2014, 11:47:32 am
I am not doing a rolleback, and will forge on the mainchain for now, please, all the people who believe in NXT and decentralization. Don't do a rollback!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: lucky88888 on August 15, 2014, 11:48:32 am
Quote
You're selling NXT back to BTER at 0.000002 btc per nxt. I'll buy them for 0.000003 btc per nxt. That's 50% more for holding all the risk of being forked myself while you have safe BTC. I got BTC ready to send instantly. Thank you very much!

Greed of the day.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: bitcoinpaul on August 15, 2014, 11:49:17 am
Ah, the hacker is BCNext, I assume. Nxt is an experiment, remember?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Peter2516 on August 15, 2014, 11:49:27 am
This small fish will stay forging on the main chain too :)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Meizirkki on August 15, 2014, 11:49:44 am
CfB is against rollback, he said, but he has to offer a choice, like Morpheus, blue pill or red pill.
Thank you, good to know we have sane devs.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 11:49:54 am
Quote
You're selling NXT back to BTER at 0.000002 btc per nxt. I'll buy them for 0.000003 btc per nxt. That's 50% more for holding all the risk of being forked myself while you have safe BTC. I got BTC ready to send instantly. Thank you very much!

Greed of the day.

plus a guy with 17m NXT already...

https://nxtblocks.info/#section/accountId/NXT-WA6A-L7CR-WSYN-64FZQ
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: whale on August 15, 2014, 11:50:04 am
If the hacker doesn't comply. Bter should put a 1000 BTC bounty on his head for a month before they use the BTC to pay us all back.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: megashira1 on August 15, 2014, 11:50:19 am
Quote
You're selling NXT back to BTER at 0.000002 btc per nxt. I'll buy them for 0.000003 btc per nxt. That's 50% more for holding all the risk of being forked myself while you have safe BTC. I got BTC ready to send instantly. Thank you very much!

Is this man an idiot? He single handedly is trying to destroy NXT. Bankrupt both BTER and NXT why dont you.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: maddy83 on August 15, 2014, 11:50:48 am
Of course, it is entirely possible the hacker actually went to sleep (we don't know his timezone). Hard to imagine though, if it was me in this situation.

In any case, the transfers seem to have stopped for now. Judging from the comments the majority doesn't support a rollback (including me), so I guess we can do nothing but wait?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: no1 on August 15, 2014, 11:51:21 am
i vote for NO ROLLBACK .. its BTERs fault!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: yassin54 on August 15, 2014, 11:52:00 am
If the hacker doesn't comply. Bter should put a 1000 BTC bounty on his head for a month before they use the BTC to pay us all back.
+1440
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: vladimirceman91 on August 15, 2014, 11:52:17 am
BTER are idiots, they should have cooperated when they had a chance, instead of pissing him off !!!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: ThomasVeil on August 15, 2014, 11:53:09 am
Guys, get real. This "deal is off because of slowness" is just a typical scammer tactic. Seen it a 100 times.

I'm not 100% decided on this. Tending to rollback because it's democratically decided.

No, it's not democracy. Guys with deep pockets will decide.

Well, there will never be perfect democracy. But we decided that with NXT the pockets do the decisions. I find it odd to say that's now suddenly bad.
Still not sure if rollback or not - definitely would prefer the 100BTC deal. But looks at the moment like the scammer pulled out and will run with BTER's second BTC batch too.
... and his tactic delayed rollback enthusiasm.

Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Mexxer on August 15, 2014, 11:53:36 am
I'm so pissed right now I could punch a baby in the face!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: megashira1 on August 15, 2014, 11:53:48 am
Quote
You're selling NXT back to BTER at 0.000002 btc per nxt. I'll buy them for 0.000003 btc per nxt. That's 50% more for holding all the risk of being forked myself while you have safe BTC. I got BTC ready to send instantly. Thank you very much!

Greed of the day.

He thinks he can profit but least does he realize that his purchase would still destroy NXT.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: TimmyD on August 15, 2014, 11:54:14 am
im starting to warm to the thought of cheap nxt for the next year or so, scumbag hacker dump all you want you wont get as much as you think but ill get super cheap nxt
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: vladimirceman91 on August 15, 2014, 11:54:40 am
What the hell? https://blockchain.info/address/13UZjKkhHWyTmQ4mx28WT5Wj1zw4pEByZw
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: devphp on August 15, 2014, 11:54:50 am
Only rollback can destroy NXT. Or fatal bug in NXT itself.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: whale on August 15, 2014, 11:55:34 am
"I'll pay 0.000004 btc per nxt. That's double what's BTER is paying. You may sell as much as you want. 1 nxt or all 45m it's up to you. I got the btc ready. You'll be left safe btc and I'll hold risk of forking. Please reply me anyway thank you"

Scumbag  ::)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: vizique on August 15, 2014, 11:55:48 am
To those citing other coins as a solution or "better" please refrain as its not helpful.

I personally wish the NXT team and Bter all the best in trying to resolve this terrible issue.

From a personal perspective and having seen the results of a rollback before (VRC) I would strongly recommend against it as it creates immense reputational damage and generates a mistrust of the blockchain.

This is an opportunity for NXT to show that rollbacks are not the solution.

For now, all the best and good luck.

Vizique
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Vega on August 15, 2014, 11:56:13 am
Bter seriously panicked.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 11:56:46 am
im starting to warm to the thought of cheap nxt for the next year or so, scumbag hacker dump all you want you wont get as much as you think but ill get super cheap nxt

Hope I can buy back my 200K NXT with 2 btc :/
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: frohlocke on August 15, 2014, 11:57:05 am
against rollback. would be the Fall.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: megashira1 on August 15, 2014, 11:57:44 am
"I'll pay 0.000004 btc per nxt. That's double what's BTER is paying. You may sell as much as you want. 1 nxt or all 45m it's up to you. I got the btc ready. You'll be left safe btc and I'll hold risk of forking. Please reply me anyway thank you"

Scumbag  ::)

Doesn't solve anything and would still destroy NXT. He's purchasing stolen funds from community members and can dump at any price.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: bitcoinpaul on August 15, 2014, 11:58:11 am
Bter seriously panicked.

Indeed.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Jacinto on August 15, 2014, 11:58:26 am
What the hell? https://blockchain.info/address/13UZjKkhHWyTmQ4mx28WT5Wj1zw4pEByZw

BTER is sold.  :-[
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: TimmyD on August 15, 2014, 11:59:38 am
yes so now he has 45mill nxt and 100+btc way to go
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 12:00:03 pm
What the hell....
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: megashira1 on August 15, 2014, 12:00:05 pm
are bter btc withdrawals working?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: bitcoinpaul on August 15, 2014, 12:00:26 pm
I'll put a mark in the calendar. August the 14th, 2014.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 12:00:45 pm
Rollback!!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 12:00:50 pm
yes so now he has 45mill nxt and 100+btc way to go

made out with around $1.8m in his 3 hours of work (the "1 hour" he said he took to crack the exchange nxt account and the "2 hours" he did his "negotiating")

of course he can't sell all that NXT without dropping the price though.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: S3MKi on August 15, 2014, 12:01:02 pm
are bter btc withdrawals working?
no

edit: sorry i think u mean nxt
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 12:01:58 pm
are bter btc withdrawals working?
no

yup...been waiting 3 hours for the withdrawal of my exchange btc.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: megashira1 on August 15, 2014, 12:02:06 pm
The greed of 1 person just destroyed NXT. gg
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Berzerk on August 15, 2014, 12:02:55 pm
are bter btc withdrawals working?
no

yup...been waiting 3 hours for the withdrawal of my exchange btc.

Not working..
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: whale on August 15, 2014, 12:03:17 pm
https://blockchain.info/address/13UZjKkhHWyTmQ4mx28WT5Wj1zw4pEByZw


What. The. Fuck.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: devphp on August 15, 2014, 12:03:41 pm
The greed of 1 person just destroyed NXT. gg

1) NXT is not destroyed if no rollback is done.
2) it's the greed of many people that bites them, who stored their coins at the exchange instead of withdrawing them and swallowing a measly 0.5% fee, blame all those who stored at the exchange first.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Peter2516 on August 15, 2014, 12:03:48 pm
In movies heists are fun :)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: megashira1 on August 15, 2014, 12:04:06 pm
SOMEONE TELL THAT BUYER THAT BUYING THOSE NXT ARE USELESS AS IT WOULD STILL DESTROY NXT.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Meizirkki on August 15, 2014, 12:04:36 pm
Pause the chains pls I'm out of popcorn.

EDIT: And quit panicking.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: LiQio on August 15, 2014, 12:05:24 pm
https://blockchain.info/address/13UZjKkhHWyTmQ4mx28WT5Wj1zw4pEByZw


What. The. Fuck.

No way to find any better words...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Vega on August 15, 2014, 12:06:18 pm
This day may destroy a significant portion of my wealth but the whole chain of events just so absurd that I
alternate between laughing and facepalming.

I think this is the first time in my life that I literally facepalmed.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Peter2516 on August 15, 2014, 12:06:34 pm

EDIT: And quit panicking.

(http://media.tumblr.com/a15958e99205e6c9a719ea4cdb3eea02/tumblr_inline_n2a0rxZFzb1qzex79.gif)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: apenzl on August 15, 2014, 12:07:51 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/aQuMfZ4.gif)

It looks like the hacker is a drama queen? The best solution was found, now execute it.

I personally vote for NO ROLLBACK, but if the community decides, we'll do it.

BTW, if a rollback of the Nxt blockchain is made now, the BTC that BTer sent to the hacker is lost. The hacker should've sent NXT first, IMHO, then BTer could hold their promise and pay him the 100BTC. But stressful decisions are tough. If he's running out of bubblegum now, there's still BTC left for a decent headhunt.

And sorry for your loss, BTer!, even though you and Klee Klee should get together and discuss security after this case is solved!!!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Vega on August 15, 2014, 12:08:15 pm
We are going to have to rollback the bitcoin blockchain too. :)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Fatih87SK on August 15, 2014, 12:08:45 pm
So what is happening guys? Is someone else buying the stolen NXT?

Did Bter send 100 BTC and got scammed?

Or both?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: TimmyD on August 15, 2014, 12:09:30 pm
So what is happening guys? Is someone else buying the stolen NXT?

Did Bter send 100 BTC and got scammed?

Or both?
both
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: landomata on August 15, 2014, 12:09:58 pm
NO roll back....low price is one thing....LOSS OF TRUST is quite another.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: apenzl on August 15, 2014, 12:10:13 pm
https://blockchain.info/address/13UZjKkhHWyTmQ4mx28WT5Wj1zw4pEByZw


What. The. Fuck.

No way to find any better words...

+1440  :o

Quote
If he's running out of bubblegum now, there's still BTC left for a decent headhunt.

Too late. Aaaaaaahhhh, fuck. 
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: bcdev on August 15, 2014, 12:10:21 pm
It's not the first time Bter fucked up.
I've already covered serious security issue earlier this year:
BTER exposes your passwords and they don’t care (http://bcdev.net/bter-leaks-your-passwords-and-they-dont-care/)
Despite eye-catching name it was just a lack of https that I discovered in April. Critical bug nonetheless.
It seems that when someone fucks up once, you can expect them to fuck up again.

I just hope for the sake of Bter that the hacker keeps up his promise and returns all the NXT.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: yassin54 on August 15, 2014, 12:10:41 pm
change my vote
NO ROLLBACK
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: vladimirceman91 on August 15, 2014, 12:10:51 pm
Don't roll back under any circumstances, BTER idiots already paid 100 BTC, if we also roll back our blockchain, it would bury us.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ludom on August 15, 2014, 12:11:01 pm
NO roll back !!!!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: youyou on August 15, 2014, 12:11:12 pm
So what is happening guys? Is someone else buying the stolen NXT?

Did Bter send 100 BTC and got scammed?

Or both?

seems like BTER panicked and litteraly gave 80btc to the theft....
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Meizirkki on August 15, 2014, 12:11:16 pm
BTER down, Nxt going strong. ;) Rollback is worthless by now.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: TimmyD on August 15, 2014, 12:12:32 pm
NXT is in lime light here but it could have quite easily been any othercoin this needs highlighting
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: achim on August 15, 2014, 12:12:41 pm
So what is happening guys? Is someone else buying the stolen NXT?

Did Bter send 100 BTC and got scammed?

Or both?

seems like BTER panicked and litteraly gave 110btc80btc to the theft....

FTFY
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Raphhhhh on August 15, 2014, 12:12:53 pm
change my vote
NO ROLLBACK
same.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: crumb-bum on August 15, 2014, 12:13:18 pm
I'm against a rollback, even if it wipes me out. I don't want nxt to be known as a currency that was willing to violate its founding principles because an exchange was hacked. Stop storing your nxt on the exchanges, for heavens sake! You hurt all of us when you do so.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Jacinto on August 15, 2014, 12:13:22 pm
I hope, i really hope they are talking "privately" by mail to "speed-up" things.


(am i delusional?)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: landomata on August 15, 2014, 12:13:40 pm
We need to keep a close watch on the hackers account.

Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: apenzl on August 15, 2014, 12:14:33 pm
Another day in Nxtville Crypto Land… 
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: firefighter on August 15, 2014, 12:15:16 pm
I vote  no Rollback, no reforging



Bter Risk. The Risk of all who leave there money on bter.

I used bter and send out my nxt as quick as possible. And that was just 1k nxt.

Anyway that schow us the Account Control  / Multisig is a real Important feature. And schould be implement really quick.

FireF

Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: TimmyD on August 15, 2014, 12:15:32 pm
guessing the hackers nxtforum account was made using tor then?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: qqNxt on August 15, 2014, 12:15:47 pm
fukc I just lost 80% of my portfolio.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 12:16:14 pm
This is a sad day in my.life
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 12:16:42 pm
fukc I just lost 80% of my portfolio.

:(
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: TimmyD on August 15, 2014, 12:16:50 pm
There seems to be more bad days in crypto than good days now
one day human greed will be the end of us all
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: landomata on August 15, 2014, 12:16:59 pm
guessing the hackers nxtforum account was made using tor then?

Maybe he slipped on this point?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: youyou on August 15, 2014, 12:17:53 pm
fukc I just lost 80% of my portfolio.

hope the best for ya.

Lost about 20% and feeling a little sick now - even if it's not a "big" amount.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 12:17:59 pm
guessing the hackers nxtforum account was made using tor then?

Maybe he slipped on this point?

anyone that can check...go check it  :)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: atoms on August 15, 2014, 12:18:13 pm
The hacker agree the deal(100BTC for 50M NXT) because lots of people agree rollback in the beginning.But more and more people start to against rollback, then he doesn't need to continue the deal.
Remember, the 50M NXT is not belong to bter, most of NXT belong to his customers.
Blame bter is not help.
This no way to refund to all his customers lost. Bter will be definitely closed.
Bter is a Chinese Exchange, If he didn't refund Chinese People's lost, the Chinese People can sue him.
But not the case for foreigners.
The price will drop anyway.

Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Mexxer on August 15, 2014, 12:18:20 pm
fukc I just lost 80% of my portfolio.

fuck man I'm so sorry!

You even had a pretty huge stash too right? Let's hope this thing can still be resolved somehow. Otherwise the community will have to put out a huge bounty on his head!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: TimmyD on August 15, 2014, 12:18:30 pm
guessing the hackers nxtforum account was made using tor then?

Maybe he slipped on this point?
Someone needs to check, also if bter recieved a mail from him that could also have his her ip
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: VanBreuk on August 15, 2014, 12:18:45 pm
guessing the hackers nxtforum account was made using tor then?

No, no Tor apparently. We're looking into this and other details.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: devphp on August 15, 2014, 12:19:22 pm
fukc I just lost 80% of my portfolio.

If you don't hold it - you don't own it.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: toenu on August 15, 2014, 12:19:34 pm
This is crazy... These things are always so entertaining.
I hope there will be no rollback. Nxt would lose credibility. I hope BTER will recover.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: TimmyD on August 15, 2014, 12:20:15 pm
guessing the hackers nxtforum account was made using tor then?

No, no Tor apparently. We're looking into this and other details.
Haha brilliant news i hope your reading this, its started
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Breasal on August 15, 2014, 12:20:56 pm
So none of suspect that the thief and Bter may be in bed together?

No one knows actually how the hack happened...and if they are colluding, the "80 bitcoin payoff" makes it seem as though poor 'ol Bter tried their best but failed....sorry, we can't afford to credit those accounts who lost. Our bad.

Please people, open your eyes.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: megashira1 on August 15, 2014, 12:21:44 pm
Quote
I'll be online all day long restless awaiting for you. I'm also setting something up that as soon as you contact me I'll get back to you immediately even if I'm asleep. Please consider my business opportunity. Sell me at least 10m and sell the rest to bter, this way everybody wins for example. Of course you're also free to sell me all 46m which I would find much better. Please get back at me even if you didn't like my deal. I wouldn't like to raise the price due to the huge risk but we can negotiate. Have a wonderful day!

this dudes fucking over everyone in NXT including himself.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: TimmyD on August 15, 2014, 12:21:50 pm
So none of suspect that the thief and Bter may be in bed together?

No one knows actually how the hack happened...and if they are colluding, the "80 bitcoin payoff" makes it seem as though poor 'ol Bter tried their best but failed....sorry, we can't afford to credit those accounts who lost. Our bad.

Please people, open your eyes.
why were bter asking for a roll back then
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Jacinto on August 15, 2014, 12:21:52 pm
wise words.

Atoms is right, as the hacker saw that the people changed their main against the rollback he literally showed up his penis and say "goodbye suckers". The rollback point was  such a nice as to play with in here.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: whale on August 15, 2014, 12:22:12 pm
guessing the hackers nxtforum account was made using tor then?

Maybe he slipped on this point?
Someone needs to check, also if bter recieved a mail from him that could also have his her ip


We need to get a bounty on the hackers head!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Nikki_D on August 15, 2014, 12:22:26 pm
 :(
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: TimmyD on August 15, 2014, 12:22:46 pm
Quote
I'll be online all day long restless awaiting for you. I'm also setting something up that as soon as you contact me I'll get back to you immediately even if I'm asleep. Please consider my business opportunity. Sell me at least 10m and sell the rest to bter, this way everybody wins for example. Of course you're also free to sell me all 46m which I would find much better. Please get back at me even if you didn't like my deal. I wouldn't like to raise the price due to the huge risk but we can negotiate. Have a wonderful day!

this dudes fucking over everyone in NXT including himself.
#
Hes proball ythe hacker
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: vladimirceman91 on August 15, 2014, 12:23:13 pm
hahahaha  :D

http://www.mynxt.info/blockexplorer/details.php?action=tx&tx=2477617738393289065

Message: Your small penis is small
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: landomata on August 15, 2014, 12:23:18 pm
So none of suspect that the thief and Bter may be in bed together?

No one knows actually how the hack happened...and if they are colluding, the "80 bitcoin payoff" makes it seem as though poor 'ol Bter tried their best but failed....sorry, we can't afford to credit those accounts who lost. Our bad.

Please people, open your eyes.

I also see it....how it knew Lin kept all passwords the same....could be inside job past employee, etc.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 12:23:41 pm
wise words.

Atoms is right, as the hacker saw that the people changed their main against the rollback he literally showed up his penis and say "goodbye suckers". The rollback point was  such a nice as to play with in here.

I agree. hacker seen people saying "no rollback" so he then felt no worries in keeping the NXT, went along with the negotiation he originally stated to get some extra BTC along with it.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: whale on August 15, 2014, 12:23:55 pm
wise words.

Atoms is right, as the hacker saw that the people changed their main against the rollback he literally showed up his penis and say "goodbye suckers". The rollback point was  such a nice as to play with in here.

Exactly. Everyone was screaming rollback basically when a deal was already being made.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: daysi on August 15, 2014, 12:24:54 pm
so 2 options ?

#1 : BTER's death ? (no rollback)

#2 : NXT's death ? (rollback)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: whale on August 15, 2014, 12:25:47 pm
I don't see BTER staying open after this. I seriously can't believe how bad their security was when they lured people in with 'interest'.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Mexxer on August 15, 2014, 12:25:55 pm
"I'll be online all day long restless awaiting for you. I'm also setting something up that as soon as you contact me I'll get back to you immediately even if I'm asleep. Please consider my business opportunity. Sell me at least 10m and sell the rest to bter, this way everybody wins for example. Of course you're also free to sell me all 46m which I would find much better. Please get back at me even if you didn't like my deal. I wouldn't like to raise the price due to the huge risk but we can negotiate. Have a wonderful day!"

greedy fuck
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: landomata on August 15, 2014, 12:26:17 pm
If nxt price goes to zero...hacker also loses.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: TimmyD on August 15, 2014, 12:26:50 pm
What the hacker fails to realise is hes not only stole from 1 person, hes stole from lots of people, if bter closes that group of people get bigger alot bigger, and alot are chinese, good luck to him, id be suprised if he is still alive in a month
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: vladimirceman91 on August 15, 2014, 12:26:57 pm
If nxt price goes to zero...hacker also loses.

Hacker just won 110 BTC xD
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: whale on August 15, 2014, 12:27:11 pm
so 2 options ?

#1 : BTER's death ? (no rollback)

#2 : NXT's death ? (rollback)

Rollback or not. This is terrible news for Nxt if the hacker keeps the Nxt. The best outcome was the deal.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: telemaco on August 15, 2014, 12:27:57 pm
I don't want to appear like a very harsh guy but

Why don't we just place fund of 1000 bitcoins for ANYONE that shows proof of this guy BALLS in a crystal jar

Maybe he gets convinced to give back the money.

Seems that is the only language these kind of people understand
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: frohlocke on August 15, 2014, 12:28:04 pm
wise words.

Atoms is right, as the hacker saw that the people changed their main against the rollback he literally showed up his penis and say "goodbye suckers". The rollback point was  such a nice as to play with in here.

I agree. hacker seen people saying "no rollback" so he then felt no worries in keeping the NXT, went along with the negotiation he originally stated to get some extra BTC along with it.
To use the whole NXT credibility as leverage is playing all in.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: MarkPfennig on August 15, 2014, 12:28:33 pm
"I'll be online all day long restless awaiting for you. I'm also setting something up that as soon as you contact me I'll get back to you immediately even if I'm asleep. Please consider my business opportunity. Sell me at least 10m and sell the rest to bter, this way everybody wins for example. Of course you're also free to sell me all 46m which I would find much better. Please get back at me even if you didn't like my deal. I wouldn't like to raise the price due to the huge risk but we can negotiate. Have a wonderful day!"

greedy fuck

The guy offering to buy the NXT at a higher price: bitcointalk /index.php?action=profile;u=259539 (renat0)
Source: /#section/txid/593167476329651351
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: coolfish on August 15, 2014, 12:28:48 pm
so 2 options ?

#1 : BTER's death ? (no rollback)

#2 : NXT's death ? (rollback)

#3: Both live ( hack return ,bter pay)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: megashira1 on August 15, 2014, 12:32:07 pm
"I'll be online all day long restless awaiting for you. I'm also setting something up that as soon as you contact me I'll get back to you immediately even if I'm asleep. Please consider my business opportunity. Sell me at least 10m and sell the rest to bter, this way everybody wins for example. Of course you're also free to sell me all 46m which I would find much better. Please get back at me even if you didn't like my deal. I wouldn't like to raise the price due to the huge risk but we can negotiate. Have a wonderful day!"

greedy fuck

The guy offering to buy the NXT at a higher price: bitcointalk /index.php?action=profile;u=259539 (renat0)
Source: /#section/txid/593167476329651351

Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: landomata on August 15, 2014, 12:32:48 pm
This is where freezing accounts would be very helpful & voting system.

Forum polls can be gamed.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: idev on August 15, 2014, 12:33:00 pm
Roll back ? WTF are you guys serious. Has nxt turned into Paypal.

Don't get me wrong its a awful loss but bter should eat this as its their fault alone.  If this does get rolled back how will it look to others. If i start an exchange and i lose customers funds due to my lax in security can i request a roll back ?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Meizirkki on August 15, 2014, 12:33:37 pm
Nvm.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: TimmyD on August 15, 2014, 12:33:49 pm
Roll back ? WTF are you guys serious. Has nxt turned into Paypal.

Don't get me wrong its a awful loss but bter should eat this as its their fault alone.  If this does get rolled back how will it look to others. If i start an exchange and i lose customers funds due to my lax in security can i request a roll back ?
There is no rollback
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: lucky88888 on August 15, 2014, 12:34:52 pm
if this deal doesn't go through.
Bter is bankrupt for sure.

Goxxed or Btered. OMFG.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: frohlocke on August 15, 2014, 12:34:58 pm
They should issue an bter asset to pay their customers back. If funds will not be returned.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Berzerk on August 15, 2014, 12:35:21 pm
210105   380695795507938695   2014-08-15 13:23:35   0   0   0   88   NXT-4698-N8M5-DKQW-FBPA9
210104   14231034849225940628   2014-08-15 13:23:34   0   0   0   177   NXT-UABF-34SA-LUSM-DCG4K

We have the fastest blockchain in the world. ;D
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: idev on August 15, 2014, 12:35:32 pm
Roll back ? WTF are you guys serious. Has nxt turned into Paypal.

Don't get me wrong its a awful loss but bter should eat this as its their fault alone.  If this does get rolled back how will it look to others. If i start an exchange and i lose customers funds due to my lax in security can i request a roll back ?
There is no rollback
So whats with all this RB talk ?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: TimmyD on August 15, 2014, 12:36:06 pm
It was put to the community to decide
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: bcdev on August 15, 2014, 12:36:13 pm
This is where freezing accounts would be very helpful
No! Account freezing would be a terrible idea. It'd basically make NXT a FedCoin.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Jimmy2011 on August 15, 2014, 12:36:37 pm
No Roll Back!

Tomorrow is another day.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: coinomat on August 15, 2014, 12:37:07 pm
as sad as it is, this is one the most entertaining things I've seen on the Interwebs

BTER behavior is absolutely golden, can't really remember anything like that
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Jacinto on August 15, 2014, 12:37:26 pm
OMG! Renat0? Really? The "why the fuck devs dont lower the fees" knight? This guy?:

Bter, this incident we all support you, stand your side!! I hope you can reduce transaction costs, to give back to everyone.
+1
hope bter becomes less greedy. the two java based coins there are really expensive to withdraw. nxt is expensive and qora is even more. please reduce their fees, Lin


Less greedy you said renat0? FFS!!!!
 >:(
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: landomata on August 15, 2014, 12:37:58 pm
This is where freezing accounts would be very helpful
No! Account freezing would be a terrible idea. It'd basically make NXT a FedCoin.

In this particular case.....to freeze an account would be preferable to a roll back.

But I don't know enough about it to forcefully argue the point.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: stdset on August 15, 2014, 12:39:14 pm
I don't want to appear like a very harsh guy but

Why don't we just place fund of 1000 bitcoins for ANYONE that shows proof of this guy BALLS in a crystal jar

Maybe he gets convinced to give back the money.

Seems that is the only language these kind of people understand
The best option if the hacker doesn't return the funds.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: whale on August 15, 2014, 12:39:26 pm
as sad as it is, this is one the most entertaining things I've seen on the Interwebs

BTER behavior is absolutely golden, can't really remember anything like that

Man BTER screwed up really badly (no 2fa, one password, sent the hacker money after negotiations were over etc) but I can't help but feel sorry for freeworm. He's basically ruined.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Peter2516 on August 15, 2014, 12:39:45 pm

It was put to the community forgers to decide
;)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Meizirkki on August 15, 2014, 12:40:38 pm
Nxt keeps rolling on
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: starik69 on August 15, 2014, 12:41:13 pm
I think it was very stupid to cry "no rollback" in this situation ;)
Rollback was a good whip for hacked, loosing it was a mistake :'(
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: wesley on August 15, 2014, 12:42:20 pm
I think it was very stupid to cry "no rollback" in this situation ;)
Rollback was a good whip for hacked, loosing it was a mistake :'(

exactly
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: idev on August 15, 2014, 12:42:48 pm
as sad as it is, this is one the most entertaining things I've seen on the Interwebs

BTER behavior is absolutely golden, can't really remember anything like that

Man BTER screwed up really badly (no 2fa, one password, sent the hacker money after negotiations were over etc) but I can't help but feel sorry for freeworm. He's basically ruined.

And this is not the first time they have been hacked. What's the count now like 10. Bloodly hell, Such incompetence.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: firefighter on August 15, 2014, 12:43:56 pm
as sad as it is, this is one the most entertaining things I've seen on the Interwebs

BTER behavior is absolutely golden, can't really remember anything like that

Man BTER screwed up really badly (no 2fa, one password, sent the hacker money after negotiations were over etc) but I can't help but feel sorry for freeworm. He's basically ruined.


They absolutly screwed up.

If they would like to exchange btc vs nxt  the had to do it, Step by Step. Send 1 BTC get NXT and so on. But they send so much, the hacker doesn't need to give them the nxt back. He could sell it again to others.


Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Damelon on August 15, 2014, 12:44:44 pm

I think it was very stupid to cry "no rollback" in this situation ;)
Rollback was a good whip for hacked, loosing it was a mistake :'(

As if you can control group reactions...

Let's not go down the road of blaming each and everyone, please.

Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: abctc on August 15, 2014, 12:44:56 pm
I think it was very stupid to cry "no rollback" in this situation ;)
Rollback was a good whip for hacked, loosing it was a mistake :'(
- this.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: WolfofCrypto on August 15, 2014, 12:45:26 pm
has the hacker sent any nxt back yet
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 12:45:36 pm
Just lost 5000 euro.

Shouldve withdrawn from BTER, I know
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: lezin on August 15, 2014, 12:46:00 pm
First 5 millions, that's all. I doubt he will send the other part.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 12:46:35 pm
has the hacker sent any nxt back yet

about 5m NXT I believe. The rest he still has along with all the btc that bter gave in exchange for NXT being returned.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: frohlocke on August 15, 2014, 12:46:45 pm
I think it was very stupid to cry "no rollback" in this situation ;)
Rollback was a good whip for hacked, loosing it was a mistake :'(
- this.
Mayby short term right but long term?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 12:47:28 pm
has the hacker sent any nxt back yet

about 5m NXT I believe. The rest he still has along with all the btc that bter gave in exchange for NXT being returned.

This still baffles me
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Meizirkki on August 15, 2014, 12:47:34 pm
I think it was very stupid to cry "no rollback" in this situation ;)
Rollback was a good whip for hacked, loosing it was a mistake :'(

exactly
Very true. But for the rest of us rollback is a nightmare.

Let them forgers decide. When this is over, a list of participated Nxt would be great to see how strong an attack Nxt withstood or got forked by.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: whale on August 15, 2014, 12:47:45 pm
Just lost 5000 euro.

Shouldve withdrawn from BTER, I know

Luckily it was only a BTC for me. A week ago it would have been 250,000+ Nxt but I recently moved everything. I don't think we'll see our money again, I think Bter will go bust.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: abctc on August 15, 2014, 12:47:59 pm
This is where freezing accounts would be very helpful
No! Account freezing would be a terrible idea. It'd basically make NXT a FedCoin.

In this particular case.....to freeze an account would be preferable to a roll back.
- may be let decide to forgers (to freeze hack's acc) ?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: _mr_e on August 15, 2014, 12:48:22 pm
Sigh. Did no one learn anything from gox?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Neomadra on August 15, 2014, 12:48:27 pm

I think it was very stupid to cry "no rollback" in this situation ;)
Rollback was a good whip for hacked, loosing it was a mistake :'(

As if you can control group reactions...

Let's not go down the road of blaming each and everyone, please.

this.
In the end it's the forgers decision not of the community.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: MarkPfennig on August 15, 2014, 12:48:35 pm
First 5 millions, that's all. I doubt he will send the other part.

0.5% of all NXT? and he has 4.5% of all left? Is that correct? That is a big loss - too big.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: whale on August 15, 2014, 12:48:59 pm
Wasn't this 50 million Nxt only in bter's hot wallet? How much is in their cold wallet?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: megashira1 on August 15, 2014, 12:49:01 pm
I invested heavily into CRYPTI on BTER. I'm afraid now.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Berzerk on August 15, 2014, 12:49:15 pm
I invested heavily into CRYPTI on BTER. I'm afraid now.

Me, too..
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: nxtperceval on August 15, 2014, 12:49:48 pm
we can do a rollback every week, this will be more fun
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Grosbof on August 15, 2014, 12:49:57 pm
Trust in NXT is over, as BTC's.
Who wants a currency where stealers can fly with 5% of the monetary mass, and not be, at least, a little bit worried about justice consequence ?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 12:50:20 pm
Just lost 5000 euro.

Shouldve withdrawn from BTER, I know

Luckily it was only a BTC for me. A week ago it would have been 250,000+ Nxt but I recently moved everything. I don't think we'll see our money again, I think Bter will go bust.

Because they sent 100 btc? Or because they are going to try to refund people?
100 btc wont break BTER lol
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: ThomasVeil on August 15, 2014, 12:50:31 pm
The hacker agree the deal(100BTC for 50M NXT) because lots of people agree rollback in the beginning.But more and more people start to against rollback, then he doesn't need to continue the deal.

Depends what happens without rollback. Price will likely crater like mad - cashing out will be tough, and he has a crowd chasing after him. Not a great deal either.

If he goes with 100BTC he might actually get some peoples respect... and 100BTC aren't shabby for sure.

Stop storing your nxt on the exchanges, for heavens sake! You hurt all of us when you do so.

Well - BTER did all they could to keep money in their exchange. High withdrawal fees, and interest offers (much higher than forging fee).
Secondly people are also whining about the low liquidity - on NXT in general and on exchanges like HitBTC. Well - you gotta store your NXT there if you wanna trade. So which is it?


I think NXT should get a "lock account" feature - NXT accounts get unusable when the majority of the Stake decides so. That would prevent rollbacks but allow the community to punish hackers.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: landomata on August 15, 2014, 12:51:18 pm
I invested heavily into CRYPTI on BTER. I'm afraid now.

wow this is bigger than Nxt now....really hope Bter management stays cool.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: lucky88888 on August 15, 2014, 12:51:33 pm
Just lost 5000 euro.

Shouldve withdrawn from BTER, I know

Luckily it was only a BTC for me. A week ago it would have been 250,000+ Nxt but I recently moved everything. I don't think we'll see our money again, I think Bter will go bust.

Because they sent 100 btc? Or because they are going to try to refund people?
100 btc wont break BTER lol

its the refund and trust part that's going to bankrupt bter.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Fatih87SK on August 15, 2014, 12:52:21 pm
has the hacker sent any nxt back yet

about 5m NXT I believe. The rest he still has along with all the btc that bter gave in exchange for NXT being returned.

If I were Bter, I would set up a bounty of 5 Million NXT to catch the thief.

Or more. Because this is his only chance to survive of Bter. It's all or nothing now.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Nikki_D on August 15, 2014, 12:52:49 pm
Trying to withdraw Darkcoin from Bter and also not processing.  Looks like Bter has bought itself a 1-way ticket to the dumps! Quite a coincidence that all this comes so soon after the NXT community announces that it's really going to pushing mass adoption, marketing and PR.  People trying to stop NXT from reaching it's potential?  I will contribute to the bounty on the Hackers head.  Where can I send?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: rckrck123 on August 15, 2014, 12:52:59 pm
I invested heavily into CRYPTI on BTER. I'm afraid now.

Me, too..

me too
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 12:53:20 pm
Just lost 5000 euro.

Shouldve withdrawn from BTER, I know

Luckily it was only a BTC for me. A week ago it would have been 250,000+ Nxt but I recently moved everything. I don't think we'll see our money again, I think Bter will go bust.

Because they sent 100 btc? Or because they are going to try to refund people?
100 btc wont break BTER lol

its the refund and trust part that's going to bankrupt bter.

yup the $1m or so in NXT which was their top traded crypto before the hack, is now gone from their exchange to the hacker WILL hurt their pockets.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: whale on August 15, 2014, 12:53:36 pm
Just lost 5000 euro.

Shouldve withdrawn from BTER, I know

Luckily it was only a BTC for me. A week ago it would have been 250,000+ Nxt but I recently moved everything. I don't think we'll see our money again, I think Bter will go bust.

Because they sent 100 btc? Or because they are going to try to refund people?
100 btc wont break BTER lol

I don't think they will be able to refund everyone.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: rjf on August 15, 2014, 12:53:57 pm
Go for it! If thieves like these get away with this type of crime, it will become the norm and ruin online crypto in the eyes of the as yet informed public. Roll it back...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 12:54:09 pm
has the hacker sent any nxt back yet

about 5m NXT I believe. The rest he still has along with all the btc that bter gave in exchange for NXT being returned.

If I were Bter, I would set up a bounty of 5 Million NXT to catch the thief.

Least they could do..

Srsly, telling  his small penis is small? Lmao
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: _mr_e on August 15, 2014, 12:54:25 pm
The hacker agree the deal(100BTC for 50M NXT) because lots of people agree rollback in the beginning.But more and more people start to against rollback, then he doesn't need to continue the deal.

Depends what happens without rollback. Price will likely crater like mad - cashing out will be tough, and he has a crowd chasing after him. Not a great deal either.

If he goes with 100BTC he might actually get some peoples respect... and 100BTC aren't shabby for sure.

Stop storing your nxt on the exchanges, for heavens sake! You hurt all of us when you do so.

Well - BTER did all they could to keep money in their exchange. High withdrawal fees, and interest offers (much higher than forging fee).
Secondly people are also whining about the low liquidity - on NXT in general and on exchanges like HitBTC. Well - you gotta store your NXT there if you wanna trade. So which is it?


I think NXT should get a "lock account" feature - NXT accounts get unusable when the majority of the Stake decides so. That would prevent rollbacks but allow the community to punish hackers.

The MGW is your solution to that trade problem.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: whale on August 15, 2014, 12:54:37 pm
I invested heavily into CRYPTI on BTER. I'm afraid now.

Me, too..

Crypti is getting dumped HARD.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Breasal on August 15, 2014, 12:54:48 pm
Wasn't this 50 million Nxt only in bter's hot wallet? How much is in their cold wallet?

good question...freeworm(Lin)?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: qqNxt on August 15, 2014, 12:55:12 pm
Just lost 5000 euro.

Shouldve withdrawn from BTER, I know

I lost way more. its my fault to keep in exchange but I was accumulating nxt and bter has the volume. bad day.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 12:55:48 pm
Just lost 5000 euro.

Shouldve withdrawn from BTER, I know

Luckily it was only a BTC for me. A week ago it would have been 250,000+ Nxt but I recently moved everything. I don't think we'll see our money again, I think Bter will go bust.

Because they sent 100 btc? Or because they are going to try to refund people?
100 btc wont break BTER lol

I don't think they will be able to refund everyone.

I have already contemplated with the fact that I lost 5000 euro's of my hard earned money, and I am a student
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: landomata on August 15, 2014, 12:56:04 pm
Go for it! If thieves like these get away with this type of crime, it will become the norm and ruin online crypto in the eyes of the as yet informed public. Roll it back...

Why are newbie's arguing for roll back....we did the roll before when Nxt itself was threatened...this is the fault of a centralized exchange with poor security measures.

Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 12:56:34 pm
Just lost 5000 euro.

Shouldve withdrawn from BTER, I know

I lost way more. its my fault to keep in exchange but I was accumulating nxt and bter has the volume. bad day.

So sorry man
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Neomadra on August 15, 2014, 12:56:38 pm
Wasn't this 50 million Nxt only in bter's hot wallet? How much is in their cold wallet?

good question...freeworm(Lin)?

I think they don't have a cold wallet.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: qqNxt on August 15, 2014, 12:57:31 pm
Wasn't this 50 million Nxt only in bter's hot wallet? How much is in their cold wallet?

good question...freeworm(Lin)?

I don't believe they have a cold wallet for nxt.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 12:57:46 pm
Wasn't this 50 million Nxt only in bter's hot wallet? How much is in their cold wallet?

good question...freeworm(Lin)?

I think they don't have a cold wallet.

Maybe for BTC
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: lezin on August 15, 2014, 12:58:25 pm
MGW will be the new standard !
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: chanc3r on August 15, 2014, 12:58:31 pm

I think it was very stupid to cry "no rollback" in this situation ;)
Rollback was a good whip for hacked, loosing it was a mistake :'(

As if you can control group reactions...
Let's not go down the road of blaming each and everyone, please.

An organism when attacked needs to focus and form a coherent response to the threat - to resist or not...
Resistance often involves an active expression of will, no resistance is the result of a lack of cohesion, or a decision not to resist.
Either can lead to the death of the organism... you never know this until afterwards...

It seems we chose no resistance...

This might be a BTER screw up but it is an attack on something NXT needs - its (current) primary exchange.
If we re-establish this volume with another exchange I assume NXT will grow and thrive again.
if BTER fails and we fail to transfer then perhaps we go down with it.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: instacash on August 15, 2014, 12:58:36 pm
Just lost 5000 euro.

Shouldve withdrawn from BTER, I know

I lost way more. its my fault to keep in exchange but I was accumulating nxt and bter has the volume. bad day.

So sorry man

Argh guys, my condolences :(
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 12:58:51 pm
Wasn't this 50 million Nxt only in bter's hot wallet? How much is in their cold wallet?

good question...freeworm(Lin)?

I think they don't have a cold wallet.

Maybe for BTC

I would definitely think bter would have a cold storage btc wallet at the least.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: _mr_e on August 15, 2014, 01:00:44 pm

I think it was very stupid to cry "no rollback" in this situation ;)
Rollback was a good whip for hacked, loosing it was a mistake :'(

As if you can control group reactions...
Let's not go down the road of blaming each and everyone, please.

An organism when attacked needs to focus and form a coherent response to the threat - to resist or not...
Resistance often involves an active expression of will, no resistance is the result of a lack of cohesion, or a decision not to resist.
Either can lead to the death of the organism... you never know this until afterwards...

It seems we chose no resistance...

This might be a BTER screw up but it is an attack on something NXT needs - its (current) primary exchange.
If we re-establish this volume with another exchange I assume NXT will grow and thrive again.
if BTER fails and we fail to transfer then perhaps we go down with it.

It's obvious that we will need to reestablish on the Multigateway.  Nxt will be stronger for it.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: landomata on August 15, 2014, 01:00:59 pm

This might be a BTER screw up but it is an attack on something NXT needs - its (current) primary exchange.
If we re-establish this volume with another exchange I assume NXT will grow and thrive again.
if BTER fails and we fail to transfer then perhaps we go down with it.

Dgex also got hacked few weeks back....do we know who was the person behind it.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Jean-Luc on August 15, 2014, 01:01:21 pm
https://nxtforum.org/nrs-releases/nrs-v1-2-5b/
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: whale on August 15, 2014, 01:02:28 pm
We need everyone to be online today and ready for forging when a new version is released.

We are going to keep our cold wallet forging all though it's a small portion.

Looks like they have some Nxt in a cold wallet. Shouldn't the cold wallet have the most Nxt in it  ??? ....*sigh*
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Jacinto on August 15, 2014, 01:03:04 pm
https://nxtforum.org/nrs-releases/nrs-v1-2-5b/

This release disables all outgoing transactions from the BTER account:
10715382765594435905 after block height 209885.


 :o
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on August 15, 2014, 01:03:10 pm
So all the while the thief is here, reading all of this and chewing his bubblegum.

No, I think he is googling for "buy fake passport change face and sex"  :D
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 01:04:21 pm
https://nxtforum.org/nrs-releases/nrs-v1-2-5b/

This release disables all outgoing transactions from the BTER account:
10715382765594435905 after block height 209885.


 :o

should have made it to freeze all outgoing transactions from the hacker account. At least the hacker can't sell it at that point.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: telemaco on August 15, 2014, 01:06:10 pm
https://nxtforum.org/nrs-releases/nrs-v1-2-5b/

This release disables all outgoing transactions from the BTER account:
10715382765594435905 after block height 209885.


 :o

so we would be in essence freezing the account...not a rollback...right?

if so, i might try it out.

Running it already
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: maddy83 on August 15, 2014, 01:06:19 pm
How much time left to decide to rollback or not?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Peter2516 on August 15, 2014, 01:06:26 pm
https://nxtforum.org/nrs-releases/nrs-v1-2-5b/

This release disables all outgoing transactions from the BTER account:
10715382765594435905 after block height 209885.


 :o

so we would be in essence freezing the account...not a rollback...right?

if so, i might try it out.
It's the 'rollback' I think.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: _mr_e on August 15, 2014, 01:06:43 pm
https://nxtforum.org/nrs-releases/nrs-v1-2-5b/

This release disables all outgoing transactions from the BTER account:
10715382765594435905 after block height 209885.


 :o

edit: nvr mind... lol

Why freeze bters account and not the hackers?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: whale on August 15, 2014, 01:06:56 pm
https://nxtforum.org/nrs-releases/nrs-v1-2-5b/

This release disables all outgoing transactions from the BTER account:
10715382765594435905 after block height 209885.


 :o

so we would be in essence freezing the account...not a rollback...right?

if so, i might try it out.

I wish we could have froze the account WITHOUT bter sending the hacker over 100 BTC.... He still wins either way now.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Peter2516 on August 15, 2014, 01:08:52 pm

I wish we could have froze the account WITHOUT bter sending the hacker over 100 BTC.... He still wins either way now.

Double mistake by Bter. First the security, then the negotiations.
Get ready for cheap NXT the following months! Everybody gets to be a whale!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 01:09:31 pm

I wish we could have froze the account WITHOUT bter sending the hacker over 100 BTC.... He still wins either way now.

Double mistake by Bter. First the security, then the negotiations.
Get ready for cheap NXT the following months! Everybody gets to be a whale!

Dont have much funds left unfortunately :(
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: igmaca on August 15, 2014, 01:09:42 pm
days ago, I hear that bter, had problems. I think this last incident is because accounting bter, could already be bankrupt before
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: lucky88888 on August 15, 2014, 01:10:17 pm
Quote
NXT-QF9S-ABNV-VLJ9-98ZPQ
applauds to this man.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: landomata on August 15, 2014, 01:10:39 pm
days ago, I hear that bter, had problems. I think this last incident is because accounting bter, could already

Any proof?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: cobaltskky on August 15, 2014, 01:11:06 pm
NO ROLLBACK.  Hacker already won.  Let the market decide what happens.  Means we all get some cheap NXT and we can keep on trucking forward.  In the longview, this is a fender bender, not a total replacement(in car crash terms).
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: landomata on August 15, 2014, 01:11:17 pm
days ago, I hear that bter, had problems. I think this last incident is because accounting bter, could already



Any proof on this?  :)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 01:11:51 pm
good thing my sold order went through a few hours before...would have lost even more.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: S3MKi on August 15, 2014, 01:12:53 pm
maybe we can create donation for bter? ???
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: cobaltskky on August 15, 2014, 01:12:53 pm
Quote
NXT-QF9S-ABNV-VLJ9-98ZPQ
applauds to this man.

What did he say?  NXTBlocks is slow...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Grosbof on August 15, 2014, 01:13:13 pm
Giving 110BTC... that's fucked up...
Sorry to say that, but I'm leaving the place. Using a currency where you give a mother fucker 60K$ when people struggle to raise funds for good causes, and stay forging alongside that kind of guy like it doesn't matter... Weaknesses in BTC or NXT are to high for now.
Good luck.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: BitcoinForumator on August 15, 2014, 01:13:38 pm
Transaction 10300383179285907441
Type   Arbitrary Message   
Date   Fri Aug 15 2014 15:44:24 GMT+0200 (Central Europe Daylight Time)   
From   NXT-QF9S-ABNV-VLJ9-98ZPQ   
To   NXT-8WJ7-8A2H-MBYN-3W9K4   
Amount   0 NXT   
Fee   1 NXT   
Confirmations   10   
Deadline   1440   
Block   12140470868482800321   
Arbitrary Message
Message:   Let me present myself. I am a professional investor. I own several million NXT, one of them being on this account. I also own thousands of bitcoins, plus large sums in dollars, stocks, and physical gold. I am announcing here that if for some reason you guys (BTER, the small fish trying to buy the NXT from you, and yourself) screw the deal, then I will have to step up personnally. This can hurt NXT a lot, a make me lose over $1M of NXT investments, but I can assure you that if this happens, I will personnally make sure you end up in jail. And will spend whatever money you end up costing me to track you down for this specific purpose. So, to all: Stop panicking. Let's do thing clear and cut. Do your part of the deal, negociate with BTER. End of story. Thanks for reading. And think.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: lucky88888 on August 15, 2014, 01:13:55 pm
Quote
NXT-QF9S-ABNV-VLJ9-98ZPQ
applauds to this man.

What did he say?  NXTBlocks is slow...
Quote
Let me present myself. I am a professional investor. I own several million NXT, one of them being on this account. I also own thousands of bitcoins, plus large sums in dollars, stocks, and physical gold. I am announcing here that if for some reason you guys (BTER, the small fish trying to buy the NXT from you, and yourself) screw the deal, then I will have to step up personnally. This can hurt NXT a lot, a make me lose over $1M of NXT investments, but I can assure you that if this happens, I will personnally make sure you end up in jail. And will spend whatever money you end up costing me to track you down for this specific purpose. So, to all: Stop panicking. Let's do thing clear and cut. Do your part of the deal, negociate with BTER. End of story. Thanks for reading. And think.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: _mr_e on August 15, 2014, 01:14:24 pm
NO ROLLBACK.  Hacker already won.  Let the market decide what happens.  Means we all get some cheap NXT and we can keep on trucking forward.  In the longview, this is a fender bender, not a total replacement(in car crash terms).

While I agree with you that we can't rollback, we aren't getting any cheap nxt. We're getting nxt that was stolen from out own community at a discount.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: igmaca on August 15, 2014, 01:15:00 pm

days ago, I hear that bter, had problems. I think this last incident is because accounting bter, could already

Any proof on this?  :)

I have not, but I resounds what happened with montgox
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: lucky88888 on August 15, 2014, 01:16:58 pm
Bter is out of question. Where has the volume for the hacker to dump?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: bcdev on August 15, 2014, 01:17:47 pm
How much time left to decide to rollback or not?
Right away. If you want to rollback [I don't], you need to rewrite the chain before block 209885 gets buried below 720 blocks.
It's a race against time. Right now it's buried below 243 blocks, so you need to have at least *75% of the network to successfully revert this block.
And with each block that percentage goes up. So start NOW if you want to do it.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 01:18:21 pm
Bter is out of question. Where has the volume for the hacker to dump?

straight up sells to the guys that messaged him in the nxt messanger
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: WolfofCrypto on August 15, 2014, 01:19:55 pm
Guys if the rollback happens you will have killed NXT totally I think this is the intentions of the hacker to make the rollback to kill NXT and people are going to fall for this tactic whats the easiest way to kill the competition make it destroy itself if you cant destroy it yourself
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: atoms on August 15, 2014, 01:20:04 pm
NO ROLLBACK.  Hacker already won.  Let the market decide what happens.  Means we all get some cheap NXT and we can keep on trucking forward.  In the longview, this is a fender bender, not a total replacement(in car crash terms).
You don't lost anything, so you can say NO ROLLBACK.
The 50M is not belong to bter.
And there is no way for bter to refund all the people who lost.
That means lots of people will lost much money.

Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Najs1 on August 15, 2014, 01:20:40 pm
days ago, I hear that bter, had problems. I think this last incident is because accounting bter, could already



Any proof on this?  :)

And now they are "stealing" from themselves?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: whale on August 15, 2014, 01:21:00 pm
Bter is out of question. Where has the volume for the hacker to dump?

He'll probably trickle it for years, taunting the community. Knowing the Chinese, they will be after him red hot. We haven't heard the end of this.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: WolfofCrypto on August 15, 2014, 01:23:02 pm
there is an option to this to sort this out and not do the rollback

you think you lost money and will get it back by doing a rollback

your very wrong your only going to kill NXT as a crypto as it will be tainted for the rollback and nxt will plumit in value as people will just dump all there balances
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: landomata on August 15, 2014, 01:23:24 pm
NO ROLLBACK.  Hacker already won.  Let the market decide what happens.  Means we all get some cheap NXT and we can keep on trucking forward.  In the longview, this is a fender bender, not a total replacement(in car crash terms).
You don't lost anything, so you can say NO ROLLBACK.
The 50M is not belong to bter.
And there is no way for bter to refund all the people who lost.
That means lots of people will lost much money.

what happens to the other 950 million?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on August 15, 2014, 01:23:39 pm
Why is CfB the man of strong opinion so subtle on this one? Am I wrong to assume NXT devs WANT the rollback, when they are to provide a .jar that does it all for you?

Why do devs encourage something so serious? A fork of the main chain is out of the question.

Already explained. Check my recent posts.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: frohlocke on August 15, 2014, 01:24:38 pm
 Most Online Today: 509. Most Online Ever: 509 (Today at 01:19:36 pm)

Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Peter2516 on August 15, 2014, 01:25:06 pm

That means lots of people will lost much money.
Yes, very unfortunate that they kept their coins on an exchange.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: firefighter on August 15, 2014, 01:25:51 pm
You don't lost anything, so you can say NO ROLLBACK.
The 50M is not belong to bter.
And there is no way for bter to refund all the people who lost.
That means lots of people will lost much money.


They Lost the money at own Risk.
My first intention was, that it is good to stop Thief, but I had a bad feeling for NXT if it would bit done. But now I'm sure. A Rollback should never happend. Even an Account Freeze should never exists.

Account Control, MGW and more Security Awareness are needed to solve this Problem.

FireF
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on August 15, 2014, 01:26:47 pm
It's NXT's first and last chance to show that NXT is no worse than Bitcoin and doesn't do rollbacks.
Do not download the modified nxt.jar from CfB
CfB is against rollback, he said, but he has to offer a choice, like Morpheus, blue pill or red pill.

If u remember in the end those who had made the choice died and only Morpheus survived :)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: rjf on August 15, 2014, 01:27:18 pm
Go for it! If thieves like these get away with this type of crime, it will become the norm and ruin online crypto in the eyes of the as yet informed public. Roll it back...

Why are newbie's arguing for roll back....we did the roll before when Nxt itself was threatened...this is the fault of a centralized exchange with poor security measures.

Newbie? Son, I've been in this scene since 2010. Only mistake I made here was posting before seeing the end of the thread but, that can happen on hand held devices... So, get a grip, there are people out here who were involved in Bitcoins billion coin rollback...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: S3MKi on August 15, 2014, 01:28:03 pm
guys don't rollback please. i think hacker will return nxt.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: marcus03 on August 15, 2014, 01:28:58 pm
It's NXT's first and last chance to show that NXT is no worse than Bitcoin and doesn't do rollbacks.
Do not download the modified nxt.jar from CfB
CfB is against rollback, he said, but he has to offer a choice, like Morpheus, blue pill or red pill.

If u remember in the end those who had made the choice died and only Morpheus survived :)

And i don't remeber that there were like 300 people in this scene arguing take the red on, no take the blue one...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Fatih87SK on August 15, 2014, 01:29:24 pm
We will see these kind of thefts over and over again, because the hacker just needs 1 passphrase to steel millions of NXT's.

The main focus of the devs should be to build something to prevent this.

We are humans. We make mistakes.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: landomata on August 15, 2014, 01:29:59 pm
Quote from: rjf link=topic=4444.msg82523#msg82523

Newbie? Son, I've been in this scene since 2010. Only mistake I made here was posting before seeing the end of the thread but, that can happen on hand held devices... So, get a grip, there are people out here who were involved in Bitcoins billion coin rollback...

Good to know.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: VanBreuk on August 15, 2014, 01:31:03 pm
We will see these kind of thefts over and over again, because the hacker just needs 1 passphrase to steel millions of NXT's.

The main focus of the devs should be to build something to prevent this.

We are humans. We make mistakes.

Multisig/phasing is already down the road. I for one would like that to become mission: critical.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Jacinto on August 15, 2014, 01:31:22 pm
Just for your information:

 Bitcoin did a rollback time ago and, no, it did not die (as you know it continued growing exponentially):

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=822.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=822.0)

So, what is the big deal of doing running this client?:

https://nxtforum.org/nrs-releases/nrs-v1-2-5b/ (https://nxtforum.org/nrs-releases/nrs-v1-2-5b/)

Only bter account transactions will be erased, and a lot of people won't cry.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: atoms on August 15, 2014, 01:31:30 pm
Is that the time to reconsider the brain wallet of NXT.
One of the major defect is nxt can't be cold storage.
Actually the brain wallet is one of the reason NXT was stolen.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Cassius on August 15, 2014, 01:32:03 pm
there is an option to this to sort this out and not do the rollback

you think you lost money and will get it back by doing a rollback

your very wrong your only going to kill NXT as a crypto as it will be tainted for the rollback and nxt will plumit in value as people will just dump all there balances

Like a lot of people, I initially misunderstood the consequences of a rollback.
It's not the right way to go. It's an easy fix that will ruin NXT's credibility long-term. My guess is that a lot of people who have lost funds on BTER know this and will dump as soon as they get their NXT back.
Net result is the same.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: chanc3r on August 15, 2014, 01:32:24 pm
guys don't rollback please. i think hacker will return nxt.

read the change log - its not a complete rollback... the affected BTER account is locked and therefore if successful the theft never happened but the other legitimate TX's will be reconfirmed in the fork that is created.

I am not arguing either way but I think people need to consider what s proposed accurately.

BTW THIS WAS NOT A NXT PASSPHRASE ATTACK - this was due to BTER server passwords!!

EDIT: Another thought the attacker holds between 10-15% of the NXT in circulation - that in itself is a weapon.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: coinomat on August 15, 2014, 01:33:05 pm
Well, what your NXT costs after the rollback? think about this.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on August 15, 2014, 01:33:11 pm
Only rollback can destroy NXT. Or fatal bug in NXT itself.

We already had both. It seems someone is a master necromancer here.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 01:34:33 pm
guys don't rollback please. i think hacker will return nxt.

read the change log - its not a complete rollback... the affected BTER account is locked and therefore if successful the theft never happened but the other legitimate TX's will be reconfirmed in the fork that is created.

I am not arguing either way but I think people need to consider what s proposed accurately.

BTW THIS WAS NOT A NXT PASSPHRASE ATTACK - this was due to BTER server passwords!!

thats what I read also. It's a rollback on the specific bter account and freezes all outgoing transactions after including the hackers transaction. I think a better thing if nothing happens is just stop the hackers account in its tracks with the same idea.

this is more like removing the NXT from existence if the community used the one luc posted about. Since the NXT won't have any outgoing transactions anymore from that account.

since no rollback is likely to be made, the hacker will likely just sell as a whale would sell it (ie: its like him sending the 1btc during the original invest period back with BCNext) and can play with the economy however he likes.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: OnlytheTruth on August 15, 2014, 01:34:37 pm
NO ROLLBACK.  Hacker already won.  Let the market decide what happens.  Means we all get some cheap NXT and we can keep on trucking forward.  In the longview, this is a fender bender, not a total replacement(in car crash terms).
You don't lost anything, so you can say NO ROLLBACK.
The 50M is not belong to bter.
And there is no way for bter to refund all the people who lost.
That means lots of people will lost much money.

what happens to the other 950 million?

I suspect some of "no roll back" guys still don't understand how fucked up it would be for NXT if the hacker holds 5% of NXT in ransom. The ecosystem business will be basically dead.

Example: He can mess with every frigging businesses in NXT asset exchange  example: buying and dumping irrationally every assets and consequently NO sane person will have anything to do with NXT AE anymore. NXT ecosystem development will basically be going to a toilet for a LONG LONG LONG time.

So yeah : roll-back : some reputation damages ; no roll-back: there will be actual and tangible damages every single day. Both choices would hurt NXT significantly but I could see rolling-back is actually better.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: whale on August 15, 2014, 01:35:54 pm
We will see these kind of thefts over and over again, because the hacker just needs 1 passphrase to steel millions of NXT's.

The main focus of the devs should be to build something to prevent this.

We are humans. We make mistakes.

Multisig/phasing is already down the road. I for one would like that to become mission: critical.

+1

We need more developers
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: whale on August 15, 2014, 01:37:08 pm
Nxt market on Poloniex is back online. Lets see what happens
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 01:37:33 pm
I dont see why a rollback is such a big deal

Whybwould that destroy NXT?

Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: ThomasVeil on August 15, 2014, 01:37:39 pm
He'll probably trickle it for years, taunting the community. Knowing the Chinese, they will be after him red hot. We haven't heard the end of this.

Yeah, not sure if I would want to have angry Chinese Hackers against me.

If u remember in the end those who had made the choice died and only Morpheus survived :)

Rotfl, classic.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: megashira1 on August 15, 2014, 01:37:54 pm
Commence the rollback.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 01:38:42 pm
I dont see why a rollback is such a big deal

Whybwould that destroy NXT?

lot of people here hate the centralized part of it from my understanding.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Jacinto on August 15, 2014, 01:40:24 pm
I dont see why a rollback is such a big deal

Whybwould that destroy NXT?

lot of people here hate the centralized part of it from my understanding.

If the majority of the forging power choses this "new" branch it is NOT centralized!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: atoms on August 15, 2014, 01:40:30 pm
I dont see why a rollback is such a big deal

Whybwould that destroy NXT?

lot of people here hate the centralized part of it from my understanding.
There is no centralized, It's decided by the community not one person.
That's the key.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: HolgerD77 on August 15, 2014, 01:41:37 pm
"Nxt server 1.2.5b started successfully."
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: cobaltskky on August 15, 2014, 01:42:04 pm
I think we need to hedge our bets and prep for an epic buy wall. When cryptsy comes back, I'll put in some minnow orders at 00001. Best I can do. This is what community is about.

We also need qtbc on pr damage control. Sell mgw(and even other decentralized exchanges ) as a solution for this.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: S3MKi on August 15, 2014, 01:42:09 pm
I dont see why a rollback is such a big deal

Whybwould that destroy NXT?
because Nxt is decentralized system
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Peter2516 on August 15, 2014, 01:42:17 pm

There is no centralized, It's decided by the community not one person.
That's the key.

Cryptoworld and media will still regard it as the result of a vote by a bunch of people on a forum, not an objective/neutral blockchain (and thus trustless) ruled by mathematics.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: TimmyD on August 15, 2014, 01:43:10 pm
I dont see why a rollback is such a big deal

Whybwould that destroy NXT?

lot of people here hate the centralized part of it from my understanding.

Hes right we have a choice no single entity can do thisnits a collective if its done. this is far from centralized
If the majority of the forging power choses this "new" branch it is NOT centralized!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: profitofthegods on August 15, 2014, 01:43:18 pm
I dont see why a rollback is such a big deal

Whybwould that destroy NXT?

lot of people here hate the centralized part of it from my understanding.

If the majority of the forging power choses this "new" branch it is NOT centralized!

Agreed, there is not centralization issue. People would rather let a theif run away with such a huge amount of money rather than cooperate with each other - real nice.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Cassius on August 15, 2014, 01:43:26 pm
What are you up to, Lee?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: instacash on August 15, 2014, 01:44:15 pm
Why does everyone seem to, all so suddenly, rule out the possibility of the hacker sending back the funds?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: atoms on August 15, 2014, 01:44:20 pm

There is no centralized, It's decided by the community not one person.
That's the key.
Cryptoworld and media will still regard it as the result of a vote by a bunch of people on a forum, not an objective blockchain ruled by mathematics.
What is POS?
That means if the 51% of the stakeholder decide to do something, then so be it.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 01:44:46 pm
I started the 1.2.5b just because if anything it sounds like it just erases the account from history not a rewriting of history.

the "This release disables all outgoing transactions from the BTER account:
10715382765594435905 after block height 209885." t
o me just sounds like the account is deleted from the history books after this block, although it will still be there literally the NXT will be stuck there. Meaning its like sending the NXT to the genesis account (if I understand it correctly). Doesn't redo the blockchain or anything. At least if I am understanding it correctly.

If not we should just specify it on the hackers account with the same principle. But yeah BTER's old account could just be rehacked anyways by the same hacker if it doesn't freeze all future transactions yet to be made.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: firefighter on August 15, 2014, 01:45:46 pm
NO ROLLBACK.  Hacker already won.  Let the market decide what happens.  Means we all get some cheap NXT and we can keep on trucking forward.  In the longview, this is a fender bender, not a total replacement(in car crash terms).
You don't lost anything, so you can say NO ROLLBACK.
The 50M is not belong to bter.
And there is no way for bter to refund all the people who lost.
That means lots of people will lost much money.

what happens to the other 950 million?

I suspect some of "no roll back" guys still don't understand how fucked up it would be for NXT if the hacker holds 5% of NXT in ransom. The ecosystem business will be basically dead.

Example: He can mess with every frigging businesses in NXT asset exchange  example: buying and dumping irrationally every assets and consequently NO sane person will have anything to do with NXT AE anymore. NXT ecosystem development will basically be going to a toilet for a LONG LONG LONG time.

So yeah : roll-back : some reputation damages ; no roll-back: there will be actual and tangible damages every single day. Both choices would hurt NXT significantly but I could see rolling-back is actually better.


Rollback is not a solution. But forgers has to decide anyway.

Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: yassin54 on August 15, 2014, 01:46:17 pm
What are you up to, Lee?
looser
send party nxt
if there are rollback
me i vote not rollback
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: empowering on August 15, 2014, 01:46:25 pm
I say one way or another - we find this guy
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Cassius on August 15, 2014, 01:46:47 pm
What are you up to, Lee?
looser
send party nxt
if there are rollback
me i vote not rollback

Excuse me?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: OnlytheTruth on August 15, 2014, 01:47:08 pm
NO ROLLBACK.  Hacker already won.  Let the market decide what happens.  Means we all get some cheap NXT and we can keep on trucking forward.  In the longview, this is a fender bender, not a total replacement(in car crash terms).
You don't lost anything, so you can say NO ROLLBACK.
The 50M is not belong to bter.
And there is no way for bter to refund all the people who lost.
That means lots of people will lost much money.

what happens to the other 950 million?

I suspect some of "no roll back" guys still don't understand how fucked up it would be for NXT if the hacker holds 5% of NXT in ransom. The ecosystem business will be basically dead.

Example: He can mess with every frigging businesses in NXT asset exchange  example: buying and dumping irrationally every assets and consequently NO sane person will have anything to do with NXT AE anymore. NXT ecosystem development will basically be going to a toilet for a LONG LONG LONG time.

So yeah : roll-back : some reputation damages ; no roll-back: there will be actual and tangible damages every single day. Both choices would hurt NXT significantly but I could see rolling-back is actually better.

Think over this scenario. Hacked NXT can be laundered via NXT AE. You cannot prevent the hacker doing that except for closing down the AE exchange.
WOW the hacker may not think of this option but it is not difficult to launder 50 million NXT for 300-400 BTC and destroy NXT AE exchange in the process. 
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: davethetrousers on August 15, 2014, 01:47:26 pm
It's neither a rollback nor centralization, it's a democratic vote to forget a provably illegitimate transaction.

Not that the libertarian types in here would be much in favor of democracy. But it clearly makes sense nonetheless. Put aside your ideology for a moment and think practically.

If this hack "goes through", I will have lost a five digit sum of NXT myself. So yes, I am automatically somewhat biased towards taking back the tx, but I do generally think rather pragmatically concerning all things money, and crypto especially. I had been in favor of virtually all measures to alleviate consequences of hacks or mishaps that happened in the past, and so I am here.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: TimmyD on August 15, 2014, 01:47:34 pm
Do we have an ip yet
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Meizirkki on August 15, 2014, 01:47:43 pm
No rewriting of history. You know how it turns out in real life, even when it's the peoples decision.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: slothbag on August 15, 2014, 01:47:52 pm
Quote
Agreed, there is not centralization issue.
I agree with this. We as a community will come to consensus on what we feel is best.

Currently the two options are:
1. Leave as is.. Scumbag thief makes away with 50m, potentially crushes price
2. Community agrees that a short term rollback of some blocks and transactions is better than letting a thief get away with it.

Imagine Bitcoin trying to get consensus to do this.. it would be near impossible.. we can only do it because Nxt is still small.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: devphp on August 15, 2014, 01:48:04 pm
It's NXT's first and last chance to show that NXT is no worse than Bitcoin and doesn't do rollbacks.
Do not download the modified nxt.jar from CfB
CfB is against rollback, he said, but he has to offer a choice, like Morpheus, blue pill or red pill.
If u remember in the end those who had made the choice died and only Morpheus survived :)

Everybody dies some day :)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: gs02xzz on August 15, 2014, 01:48:29 pm
Why does everyone seem to, all so suddenly, rule out the possibility of the hacker sending back the funds?

I guess that the time is running out. How much time is left for the rollback?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: OnlytheTruth on August 15, 2014, 01:48:40 pm
NO ROLLBACK.  Hacker already won.  Let the market decide what happens.  Means we all get some cheap NXT and we can keep on trucking forward.  In the longview, this is a fender bender, not a total replacement(in car crash terms).
You don't lost anything, so you can say NO ROLLBACK.
The 50M is not belong to bter.
And there is no way for bter to refund all the people who lost.
That means lots of people will lost much money.

what happens to the other 950 million?

I suspect some of "no roll back" guys still don't understand how fucked up it would be for NXT if the hacker holds 5% of NXT in ransom. The ecosystem business will be basically dead.

Example: He can mess with every frigging businesses in NXT asset exchange  example: buying and dumping irrationally every assets and consequently NO sane person will have anything to do with NXT AE anymore. NXT ecosystem development will basically be going to a toilet for a LONG LONG LONG time.

So yeah : roll-back : some reputation damages ; no roll-back: there will be actual and tangible damages every single day. Both choices would hurt NXT significantly but I could see rolling-back is actually better.

Think over this scenario. Hacked NXT can be laundered via NXT AE. You cannot prevent the hacker doing that except for closing down the AE exchange.
WOW the hacker may not think of this option but it is not difficult to launder 50 million NXT for 300-400 BTC and destroy NXT AE exchange in the process.

rolling it back if you want NXT ecosystem to survive.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: instacash on August 15, 2014, 01:48:45 pm
Do we have an ip yet

You can bet the hacker was smart enough to use TOR.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: landomata on August 15, 2014, 01:49:24 pm
I started the 1.2.5b just because if anything it sounds like it just erases the account from history not a rewriting of history.

the "This release disables all outgoing transactions from the BTER account:
10715382765594435905 after block height 209885." t
o me just sounds like the account is deleted from the history books after this block, although it will still be there literally the NXT will be stuck there. Meaning its like sending the NXT to the genesis account (if I understand it correctly). Doesn't redo the blockchain or anything. At least if I am understanding it correctly.

If not we should just specify it on the hackers account with the same principle. But yeah BTER's old account could just be rehacked anyways by the same hacker if it doesn't freeze all future transactions yet to be made.

....and those with deadline already expired.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: profitofthegods on August 15, 2014, 01:49:41 pm

There is no centralized, It's decided by the community not one person.
That's the key.
Cryptoworld and media will still regard it as the result of a vote by a bunch of people on a forum, not an objective blockchain ruled by mathematics.
What is POS?
That means if the 51% of the stakeholder decide to do something, then so be it.

yes, decentralization is not the same thing as automation. Just because human beings are involved in making a decision on something, that does not mean you have somehow broken decentralization.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Meizirkki on August 15, 2014, 01:49:55 pm
Lets roll back bitcoin so bter gets their bTC back!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: ThomasVeil on August 15, 2014, 01:50:11 pm
The current solution with freezing the BTER account is the best solution. It is not a full rollback!
We have to punish scammers else we'll become their scam-Disneyland.
And: We have to protect our most avid NXT supporters.

It's decentralized decision making. PoS just as NXT was supposed to be.
In the future there should be a vote system that allows freezing accounts. Once the distribution is OK that should be totally acceptable.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Raphhhhh on August 15, 2014, 01:51:33 pm
It seems really suspicious than bter sent 70 btc in a row, and not 10 by 10 waiting for 5M nxt each time.

Do ya agree ?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: S3MKi on August 15, 2014, 01:51:38 pm
leave as is. no rollback.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 01:51:43 pm
I started the 1.2.5b just because if anything it sounds like it just erases the account from history not a rewriting of history.

the "This release disables all outgoing transactions from the BTER account:
10715382765594435905 after block height 209885." t
o me just sounds like the account is deleted from the history books after this block, although it will still be there literally the NXT will be stuck there. Meaning its like sending the NXT to the genesis account (if I understand it correctly). Doesn't redo the blockchain or anything. At least if I am understanding it correctly.

If not we should just specify it on the hackers account with the same principle. But yeah BTER's old account could just be rehacked anyways by the same hacker if it doesn't freeze all future transactions yet to be made.

....and those with deadline already expired.

what does that mean again lol?

sorry been out of the nxt community for a while (5 months) forgot all the jargon...if we could freeze the outgoing transactions from the hackers account like the 1.2.5b does with bters, that just means the hackers account becomes the same way.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: VanBreuk on August 15, 2014, 01:51:49 pm
Do we have an ip yet

You can bet the hacker was smart enough to use TOR.

Tor tools suggest IP used by thesircom was not a Tor relay in the times of the posts. ISP associated to thesircom IP address has been contacted.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Meizirkki on August 15, 2014, 01:52:05 pm
Lets not rewrite history
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: megashira1 on August 15, 2014, 01:52:52 pm
https://nxtblocks.info/#section/blockexplorer_messages

Quote
Your plan is not to hold NXT or BTER to Ransom. Your total plan is to force the rollback as you do not lose as you got BTC now. And you know by doing the Rollback NXT will drop so to you it makes no difference. Your not just a simple hacker are you? You target NXT only when you could get any of the other coins at the same time in bter there is most probably more BTC than NXT? I think this is nie master plan to take NXT out of the picture for good in big swoop. I would like the Hacker and BTER to add me on Skype: Something really does not match up in all this. But i see a very easy solution to screw the hacker into the ground and making him 46 million NXT useless. I have suggestion for BTER if they so wish to hear it on solving this matter SKYPE le-grande1

Get a grip dude. As if the hacker knew BTER would blindly send him 100+ btc. Get off your conspiracy horse.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: IanDeMartino on August 15, 2014, 01:53:12 pm
Hi everyone. This is Ian DeMartino of CoinTelegraph.

Sorry about this situation, I hope whatever you guys decide, it doesn't cause the currency to drop too far.

I am working on a story about this, and I am trying to be very fair to NXT (mentioning that it wasn't NXT's security, and I am mentioning multigateway as a safer alternative to exchanges). I think it is safe to say I have been a friend to the community in the past and will try to give you guys the most fair article possible.

What I need from someone here is anyone who has any kind of altcoins on Bter besides NXT that can't be withdrawn, could you post a screenshot of the site denying the transaction? I have an account there, but I long ago pulled out most of my coins, I only have (had?) two NXT and a little bit of BTC dust left on the exchange. I'm obviously not going to put new BTC into the exchange (and even if it did, it might take too long for the purpose of the article)

I read on here earlier that Darkcoin and other coins were having problems? Can anyone give me a list? Bter has been unresponsive so far (but, can't really blame them, they have bigger issues than a nosy reporter atm).

Right now I have in the article that "unconfirmed reports indicate that Darkcoin and possibly other coins in addition to NXT are unable to be withdrawn from the exchange" I'd really love to be able to tell our readers with certainty one way or the other.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: kLee on August 15, 2014, 01:53:16 pm
Hi guys/gals,

My sincere sympathies to anyone lost money with this and I am really sorry for the guys at Bter - although they were very careless I have been in their position and know how it feels like!

Also they were very helpful to me so I really hope things will get solved good for them.

I have no opinion on the rollback though, unfortunately it is a lose - lose scenario either way...

Again sorry for the possible losses of NXTers.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: OnlytheTruth on August 15, 2014, 01:53:23 pm
NO ROLLBACK.  Hacker already won.  Let the market decide what happens.  Means we all get some cheap NXT and we can keep on trucking forward.  In the longview, this is a fender bender, not a total replacement(in car crash terms).
You don't lost anything, so you can say NO ROLLBACK.
The 50M is not belong to bter.
And there is no way for bter to refund all the people who lost.
That means lots of people will lost much money.

what happens to the other 950 million?

I suspect some of "no roll back" guys still don't understand how fucked up it would be for NXT if the hacker holds 5% of NXT in ransom. The ecosystem business will be basically dead.

Example: He can mess with every frigging businesses in NXT asset exchange  example: buying and dumping irrationally every assets and consequently NO sane person will have anything to do with NXT AE anymore. NXT ecosystem development will basically be going to a toilet for a LONG LONG LONG time.

So yeah : roll-back : some reputation damages ; no roll-back: there will be actual and tangible damages every single day. Both choices would hurt NXT significantly but I could see rolling-back is actually better.

Think over this scenario. Hacked NXT can be laundered via NXT AE. You cannot prevent the hacker doing that except for closing down the AE exchange.
WOW the hacker may not think of this option but it is not difficult to launder 50 million NXT for 300-400 BTC and destroy NXT AE exchange in the process.

rolling it back if you want NXT ecosystem to survive.

GIVE ME A KARMA for saying the right thing.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Cassius on August 15, 2014, 01:53:42 pm
Do we have an ip yet

You can bet the hacker was smart enough to use TOR.

Tor tools suggest IP used by thesircom was not a Tor relay in the times of the posts. ISP associated to thesircom IP address has been contacted.

Now it gets really interesting. No Tor. Seriously?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: cobaltskky on August 15, 2014, 01:53:58 pm
What causes the least damage? There is no magic bullet here. I don't like the idea of freezing one account, because(seen from an outside observer) that means this community could attack a single person or businesses account if they don't like them. Bad precedence. Look what happened to Vericoin. Maybe it will be forgotten with time, maybe not. I wouldn't operate my business on nxt if I had to worry about this. So, I down vote rollback.

Also, I hope James's mgw servers happen to be down. Because now the hacker is aware of mgw and could use it as a means to dump the nxt... Or maybe we as a community could use it as a honeypot if James agrees? :}
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: frohlocke on August 15, 2014, 01:54:08 pm
NO ROLLBACK.  Hacker already won.  Let the market decide what happens.  Means we all get some cheap NXT and we can keep on trucking forward.  In the longview, this is a fender bender, not a total replacement(in car crash terms).
You don't lost anything, so you can say NO ROLLBACK.
The 50M is not belong to bter.
And there is no way for bter to refund all the people who lost.
That means lots of people will lost much money.

what happens to the other 950 million?

I suspect some of "no roll back" guys still don't understand how fucked up it would be for NXT if the hacker holds 5% of NXT in ransom. The ecosystem business will be basically dead.

Example: He can mess with every frigging businesses in NXT asset exchange  example: buying and dumping irrationally every assets and consequently NO sane person will have anything to do with NXT AE anymore. NXT ecosystem development will basically be going to a toilet for a LONG LONG LONG time.

So yeah : roll-back : some reputation damages ; no roll-back: there will be actual and tangible damages every single day. Both choices would hurt NXT significantly but I could see rolling-back is actually better.

Think over this scenario. Hacked NXT can be laundered via NXT AE. You cannot prevent the hacker doing that except for closing down the AE exchange.
WOW the hacker may not think of this option but it is not difficult to launder 50 million NXT for 300-400 BTC and destroy NXT AE exchange in the process.

rolling it back if you want NXT ecosystem to survive.
More supply in nxt could also lead to (hyper-) inflation in asset prices. Which might bring more people AE. As nobody can predict the future. We will only know after. Biggest asset of NXT is credibility. If you as an investor can not be sure that deals are final there will be no investors.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: gs02xzz on August 15, 2014, 01:54:28 pm
It seems really suspicious than bter sent 70 btc in a row, and not 10 by 10 waiting for 5M nxt each time.
Do ya agree ?

Did Bter receive any coins back?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: instacash on August 15, 2014, 01:54:41 pm
Do we have an ip yet

You can bet the hacker was smart enough to use TOR.

Tor tools suggest IP used by thesircom was not a Tor relay in the times of the posts. ISP associated to thesircom IP address has been contacted.

How do you know "thesircom" is the same user as the hacker and not a random troll?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: empowering on August 15, 2014, 01:54:56 pm
The current solution with freezing the BTER account is the best solution. It is not a full rollback!
We have to punish scammers else we'll become their scam-Disneyland.
And: We have to protect our most avid NXT supporters.

It's decentralized decision making. PoS just as NXT was supposed to be.
In the future there should be a vote system that allows freezing accounts. Once the distribution is OK that should be totally acceptable.

I would hope that "we" have to protect ALL NXT supporters... 
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 01:55:20 pm
Hi everyone. This is Ian DeMartino of CoinTelegraph.

Sorry about this situation, I hope whatever you guys decide, it doesn't cause the currency to drop too far.

I am working on a story about this, and I am trying to be very fair to NXT (mentioning that it wasn't NXT's security, and I am mentioning multigateway as a safer alternative to exchanges). I think it is safe to say I have been a friend to the community in the past and will try to give you guys the most fair article possible.

What I need from someone here is anyone who has any kind of altcoins on Bter besides NXT that can't be withdrawn, could you post a screenshot of the site denying the transaction? I have an account there, but I long ago pulled out most of my coins, I only have (had?) two NXT and a little bit of BTC dust left on the exchange. I'm obviously not going to put new BTC into the exchange (and even if it did, it might take too long for the purpose of the article)

I read on here earlier that Darkcoin and other coins were having problems? Can anyone give me a list? Bter has been unresponsive so far (but, can't really blame them, they have bigger issues than a nosy reporter atm).

Right now I have in the article that "unconfirmed reports indicate that Darkcoin and possibly other coins in addition to NXT are unable to be withdrawn from the exchange" I'd really love to be able to change the "unconfirmed

I am having the same with BitCoin, withdrew my Bitcoin around 6 hours ago still in "Processing".
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: HinnomTX on August 15, 2014, 01:55:25 pm
I forge. I won't be trying to rewrite history. This incident does not break the coin like the billion coin rollback of Bitcoin. It may be early days with NXT, but not that early.
This is not a popular stance, but the theft should stand. The theft legitimizes the value of the coin. The perceived value of the coin rises further if we maintain the discipline of keeping one ledger no matter what. (unless the coin is broken of course)
Now is the time for social engineering. Negotiate with the hacker. This is a million dollar heist. Let him fear for his life. Get the coins back the right way.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: yassin54 on August 15, 2014, 01:55:35 pm
What are you up to, Lee?
looser
send party nxt
if there are rollback
me i vote not rollback
Excuse me?

customer bter I think he should sent nxt for Lee

if if it there's rollback
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 01:55:53 pm
It seems really suspicious than bter sent 70 btc in a row, and not 10 by 10 waiting for 5M nxt each time.
Do ya agree ?

Did Bter receive any coins back?

5m NXT
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Peter2516 on August 15, 2014, 01:56:45 pm
Forging on the other chain also cancels transactions that have expired. It does NOT just cancel the theft.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: devphp on August 15, 2014, 01:56:52 pm
I forge. I won't be trying to rewrite history. This incident does not break the coin like the billion coin rollback of Bitcoin. It may be early days with NXT, but not that early.
This is not a popular stance, but the theft should stand. The theft legitimizes the value of the coin. The perceived value of the coin rises further if we maintain the discipline of keeping one ledger no matter what. (unless the coin is broken of course)
Now is the time for social engineering. Negotiate with the hacker. This is a million dollar heist. Let him fear for his life. Get the coins back the right way.

+1440
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: atoms on August 15, 2014, 01:57:08 pm
mentioning that it wasn't NXT's security

Not really, if nxt can be cold storage, then this tragedy may not happen.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Cassius on August 15, 2014, 01:57:34 pm
What are you up to, Lee?
looser
send party nxt
if there are rollback
me i vote not rollback
Excuse me?

customer bter I think he should sent nxt for Lee

if if it there's rollback

Ok, not sure what you mean. I was referring to this message Lee sent the hacker:
Your plan is not to hold NXT or BTER to Ransom. Your total plan is to force the rollback as you do not lose as you got BTC now. And you know by doing the Rollback NXT will drop so to you it makes no difference. Your not just a simple hacker are you? You target NXT only when you could get any of the other coins at the same time in bter there is most probably more BTC than NXT? I think this is nie master plan to take NXT out of the picture for good in big swoop. I would like the Hacker and BTER to add me on Skype: Something really does not match up in all this. But i see a very easy solution to screw the hacker into the ground and making him 46 million NXT useless. I have suggestion for BTER if they so wish to hear it on solving this matter SKYPE le-grande1
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Peter2516 on August 15, 2014, 01:57:41 pm
http://www.coindesk.com/bter-nxt-bitcoin-exchange-hack/

On Coindesk now.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: whale on August 15, 2014, 01:57:49 pm
Do we have an ip yet

You can bet the hacker was smart enough to use TOR.

Tor tools suggest IP used by thesircom was not a Tor relay in the times of the posts. ISP associated to thesircom IP address has been contacted.

Get him!!! I want to see this scumbag locked up.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: VanBreuk on August 15, 2014, 01:58:17 pm
Do we have an ip yet

You can bet the hacker was smart enough to use TOR.

Tor tools suggest IP used by thesircom was not a Tor relay in the times of the posts. ISP associated to thesircom IP address has been contacted.

How do you know "thesircom" is the same user as the hacker and not a random troll?

We cannot have absolute certainty, but BTER was approached by an email address that leaves little doubt that thesircom is the hacker.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: starfishi on August 15, 2014, 01:58:58 pm
guys don't rollback please. i think hacker will return nxt.

read the change log - its not a complete rollback... the affected BTER account is locked and therefore if successful the theft never happened but the other legitimate TX's will be reconfirmed in the fork that is created.

This is scarry, from wich sum on, can i request a rollback, 50 mil, 5mil, 500 k, ? Especially a selective one, people could misuse this. So, as hard as it is, no rollback, its not possible, it would destroy the fundamentals of NXT, or any CC. Sorry.
Bter should try to negotiate the NXT-BTC-deal further, whatever is possible, it is also in the interest of the thief, because if he does not comply, probably james, or others, interested in the resulting huge bounty on his head, will show us, that all the "mixing" and "ringsignaturing" doesnt really work, and only "teleporting" is the future ...  I´m burning to know,anyway, james !
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: cobaltskky on August 15, 2014, 01:59:18 pm
Agreed. We take a stance that transactions are final and we survive this by continuing our projects and delivering value, and we will show up other coins that resorted to a rollback.

Also, legitimized value of nxt.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: landomata on August 15, 2014, 01:59:44 pm
Negotiate with the hacker. This is a million dollar heist. Let him fear for his life. Get the coins back the right way.
+1
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: profitofthegods on August 15, 2014, 02:00:28 pm
I forge. I won't be trying to rewrite history. This incident does not break the coin like the billion coin rollback of Bitcoin. It may be early days with NXT, but not that early.
This is not a popular stance, but the theft should stand. The theft legitimizes the value of the coin. The perceived value of the coin rises further if we maintain the discipline of keeping one ledger no matter what. (unless the coin is broken of course)
Now is the time for social engineering. Negotiate with the hacker. This is a million dollar heist. Let him fear for his life. Get the coins back the right way.

So stopping a theft from happening is the wrong way, but murdering someone is the 'right way'? That is seriously fucked up.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Pilot on August 15, 2014, 02:00:38 pm
Just create a hall of shame thread where you put addresses of all hackers, so that exchanges can implement measures not to accept funds from those addresses. It won't make much sense to steal then. And the hacker could return most of the stolen funds.

So, they just move through that asset exchange to the mgwBTC and withdraw BTC. Also, you would have to block and address that got coins from that address... so someone could accept stolen coins without knowledge and then not be able to spend/trade them.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: empowering on August 15, 2014, 02:01:08 pm
I agree on one thing...  bounty for this guy caught...  hound him, stalk him,  follow every action we can- and of course hand him over to the law at the end of it all...  more important than anything we catch this guy imo.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: whale on August 15, 2014, 02:01:44 pm
I think a partial rollback is acceptable. Plus we have a lead on the hacker so all is dandy  :-*
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: devphp on August 15, 2014, 02:02:20 pm
Just create a hall of shame thread where you put addresses of all hackers, so that exchanges can implement measures not to accept funds from those addresses. It won't make much sense to steal then. And the hacker could return most of the stolen funds.

So, they just move through that asset exchange to the mgwBTC and withdraw BTC. Also, you would have to block and address that got coins from that address... so someone could accept stolen coins without knowledge and then not be able to spend/trade them.

Yeah, that proposal wouldn't solve a thing, I know, I didn't think when I wrote it :)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: firefighter on August 15, 2014, 02:03:18 pm
mentioning that it wasn't NXT's security

Not really, if nxt can be cold storage, then this tragedy may not happen.


They could a cold storage like approach. So it is not a Security Thing of NXT at all.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: nexern on August 15, 2014, 02:03:24 pm
calm down and let sort things logical if possible.

we now have a tool to undo the hack.
the hacker already has BTC from bter due to panicking

so, we should 'prepare' running the new nrs but wait until it
is sure hacker breaks the deal. this is the case when:

1. the hacker is touching the btc or nxt without any message
2. the max. time window - some spare time is closing to run the new nrs

if one of this happened the new nrs should be activated.
as a result the hacker still have the btc but we, as community,
should raise a bounty to hunt him. the hacker would be indeed
very silly to risk all this just for those btc.

and btw, running the new nrs doesn't violate anything because
decentralisation isn't an end in itself but has the propose to
serve many instead minors. understanding this, the new nrs delivers
exactly the demand behind decentralisation, using common sense
by many, this is decentralisation in my definition.

important would be to handle an exact timeframe for this but as said,
it is not sure the deal is broken.

Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: apenzl on August 15, 2014, 02:03:38 pm
http://www.coindesk.com/bter-nxt-bitcoin-exchange-hack/

On Coindesk now.

Good choice of picture.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: TimmyD on August 15, 2014, 02:04:07 pm
Do we have an ip yet

You can bet the hacker was smart enough to use TOR.

Tor tools suggest IP used by thesircom was not a Tor relay in the times of the posts. ISP associated to thesircom IP address has been contacted.
Great news haha busted. better get returning those btc and nxt now mr about to get seen to by bigger boys in jail hacker
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Picsou on August 15, 2014, 02:04:25 pm
In another hand, having a community (=decentralized) being able to do a PARTIAL rollback to protect from hackers may not be seen as bad as some present it. If we think about legals businesses of course...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: instacash on August 15, 2014, 02:04:50 pm
I agree on one thing...  bounty for this cunt on a platter...  hound him, stalk him, stalk him, follow every action we can- and of course hand him over to the law at the end of it all...  more important than anything we nail this prick to the wall. imo.

When DGEX was hacked a while ago, people stopped caring fews days after. The villain sold 52 BTC + 1.15M NXT  [1] (https://nxtforum.org/trading-exchanges/dgex-hacked-for-52-btc-1-2m-nxt/msg72900/). Perhaps it will be different this time given that the entire NXT ecosystem seems at danger and, should the villain not return the NXT, we're talking 100+BTC + 50M NXT?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: coretechs on August 15, 2014, 02:04:56 pm
So BTER is "too big to fail" and the proposed solution is to compromise the integrity of the entire NXT system to provide a "bailout"?  What is this, the FED in 2008?

This is not a technical issue, the idea of a rollback to resolve a high-profile individual's inability to properly secure funds is insane.

You can pretend that this is somehow a noble cause and that rolling back is the right thing to do, but can anyone honestly say they really have any clue what is going on?  For all anyone really knows, this hack (and others in the past) could have been staged, in which case a rollback would make NXT the laughing stock of cryptos.  Forgers are the judge, jury and executioner in NXT consensus.  Some panic on the forums forum and a few messages in the blockchain do not constitute reliable evidence and a fair trial.  Go after the hacker, don't compromise the system.

I'm confident it won't happen because I believe most big forgers understand that a rollback under these circumstances would destroy the reputation of NXT. 

If it was a bug in the protocol, I would have a different opinion.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Peter2516 on August 15, 2014, 02:06:42 pm
Not a very good story on Coindesk by the way.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: atoms on August 15, 2014, 02:06:57 pm
What are you up to, Lee?
looser
send party nxt
if there are rollback
me i vote not rollback
Excuse me?

customer bter I think he should sent nxt for Lee

if if it there's rollback

Ok, not sure what you mean. I was referring to this message Lee sent the hacker:
Your plan is not to hold NXT or BTER to Ransom. Your total plan is to force the rollback as you do not lose as you got BTC now. And you know by doing the Rollback NXT will drop so to you it makes no difference. Your not just a simple hacker are you? You target NXT only when you could get any of the other coins at the same time in bter there is most probably more BTC than NXT? I think this is nie master plan to take NXT out of the picture for good in big swoop. I would like the Hacker and BTER to add me on Skype: Something really does not match up in all this. But i see a very easy solution to screw the hacker into the ground and making him 46 million NXT useless. I have suggestion for BTER if they so wish to hear it on solving this matter SKYPE le-grande1
Rollback will not destroy NXT. If I am the hacker, I will send such message to myself.
Then the community may not  rollback, I could keep the 50M NXT.
The 50M BTC worth more than 3000BTC at this moment.
There are only 26 coins Market Cap more than 3000BTC and what the other coins in bter worth more than 3000BTC?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: kodtycoon on August 15, 2014, 02:07:11 pm
I think a partial rollback is acceptable. Plus we have a lead on the hacker so all is dandy  :-*
I'm changing my mind about the roll back. some good points made about the havock that can be caused by a malicious entity controlling 5% of nxt! as long as it is decided by the community and not forced by the devs I think it is ok. it's starting to seem like the lessor of two evils and with a lead on the hacker he may be caught in the end.
I think a partial rollback is acceptable. Plus we have a lead on the hacker so all is dandy  :-*


Sent from my C1905 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: mezzovide on August 15, 2014, 02:07:36 pm
calm down and let sort things logical if possible.

we now have a tool to undo the hack.
the hacker already has BTC from bter due to panicking

so, we should 'prepare' running the new nrs but wait until it
is sure hacker breaks the deal. this is the case when:

1. the hacker is touching the btc or nxt without any message
2. the max. time window - some spare time is closing to run the new nrs

if one of this happened the new nrs should be activated.
as a result the hacker still have the btc but we, as community,
should raise a bounty to hunt him. the hacker would be indeed
very silly to risk all this just for those btc.

and btw, running the new nrs doesn't violate anything because
decentralisation isn't an end in itself but has the propose to
serve many instead minors. understanding this, the new nrs delivers
exactly the demand behind decentralisation, using common sense
by many, this is decentralisation in my definition.

important would be to handle an exact timeframe for this but as said,
it is not sure the deal is broken.

+1440
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: trivialcode on August 15, 2014, 02:07:43 pm
Rollback is totally wrong way from many perspectives and probably only your loss can be reason you can even think about it.
 
If majority rule is applied then there should be transparent account blocking feature with transparent NXT redistribution to the selected account based on NXT voting system.
Today, NXT has nothing of this. So take a hit or let NXT die as unreliable crypto where history can be rewritten anytime. Remember DGEX was robbed and I guess more then 1M of NXT were stolen? I haven't noticed any calls for rollback.

The day NXT rollbacks from non-technical reasons I'm selling all my NXT asset and looking for another reliable 2nd gen crypto. I hope Bter will be able to compensate your losses and stollen NXT will never be cashed.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: apenzl on August 15, 2014, 02:08:13 pm
calm down and let sort things logical if possible.

we now have a tool to undo the hack.
the hacker already has BTC from bter due to panicking

so, we should 'prepare' running the new nrs but wait until it
is sure hacker breaks the deal.

[comment deleted]
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on August 15, 2014, 02:09:03 pm
Like a lot of people, I initially misunderstood the consequences of a rollback.

Maybe we should distinguish Reorg (made within 720 blocks) and Rollback (made after 720 blocks)...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: nxtperceval on August 15, 2014, 02:09:15 pm
only your loss can be reason you can even think about it.
 


and that's all folks.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Jacinto on August 15, 2014, 02:09:20 pm
Looks like our biggest stake holder 4747...888 is forging in the "alternative" branch:

https://nxtforum.org/nrs-releases/nrs-v1-2-5b/msg82625/#msg82625 (https://nxtforum.org/nrs-releases/nrs-v1-2-5b/msg82625/#msg82625)

Forging power is suming up to F*ck the hacker  :D
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: cobaltskky on August 15, 2014, 02:10:34 pm
calm down and let sort things logical if possible.

we now have a tool to undo the hack.
the hacker already has BTC from bter due to panicking

so, we should 'prepare' running the new nrs but wait until it
is sure hacker breaks the deal. this is the case when:

1. the hacker is touching the btc or nxt without any message
2. the max. time window - some spare time is closing to run the new nrs

if one of this happened the new nrs should be activated.
as a result the hacker still have the btc but we, as community,
should raise a bounty to hunt him. the hacker would be indeed
very silly to risk all this just for those btc.

and btw, running the new nrs doesn't violate anything because
decentralisation isn't an end in itself but has the propose to
serve many instead minors. understanding this, the new nrs delivers
exactly the demand behind decentralisation, using common sense
by many, this is decentralisation in my definition.

important would be to handle an exact timeframe for this but as said,
it is not sure the deal is broken.
+1440 keep the account lock release in our back pocket as a bargaining chip.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: chanc3r on August 15, 2014, 02:10:50 pm


Which forging hubs will run the NRS?
Members of the Nxt community who wants to participate can "vote with their stake" by leasing it to this/these hub(s).

DO NOT LEASE - then you cannot 'vote' with your stake.
ANY NEW LEASE TAKES 1440 BLOCKS TO BECOME EFFECTIVE!!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Picsou on August 15, 2014, 02:11:05 pm
Like a lot of people, I initially misunderstood the consequences of a rollback.

Maybe we should distinguish Reorg (made within 720 blocks) and Rollback (made after 720 blocks)...

I agree. We should REORG  ;)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: empowering on August 15, 2014, 02:11:12 pm
Also I vote - no roll back... essentially this is a Exchange problem- help where we can...  but the excange must take some responsibility and they should be prepared to take action/have a plan/have an insurance plan/have profits to defend themselves with.

If it comes to a choice between an exchange and NXT - I  choose NXT lives.

The hacker obviously thinks that NXT are more important than his own liberty, then with that I agree... 

Screw the hacker - he needs to be found and nailed to a wall - a legal one

Sorry to the exchange (I am glad I toook all my NXT from all exchanges some time ago) but if they dropped the ball they dropped the ball.

NXT must live on - as intended...

This is not a NXT problem- it is a hacker and BTER problem.

Is this is the same piece of shit that took out Klee and john?





Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: DroneMinePR on August 15, 2014, 02:12:09 pm
.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on August 15, 2014, 02:13:00 pm
Cryptoworld and media will still regard it as the result of a vote by a bunch of people on a forum, not an objective/neutral blockchain (and thus trustless) ruled by mathematics.

It's still ruled by mathematics. At least for the next 450 blocks.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Meizirkki on August 15, 2014, 02:13:17 pm
ANY KIND OF REWRITE HOWEVER SMALL IS THE FIRST STEP TOWARDS CENSORSHIP. The first step towards big forgers collaborating to control who can use Nxt and what for. If this becomes reality, a goverment or any private entity with a lot of money can simply bribe forgers to turn Nxt into PayPal.

Let's not make the first step!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: marcus03 on August 15, 2014, 02:13:20 pm
calm down and let sort things logical if possible.

we now have a tool to undo the hack.
the hacker already has BTC from bter due to panicking

so, we should 'prepare' running the new nrs but wait until it
is sure hacker breaks the deal.

Which forging hubs will run the NRS?
Members of the Nxt community who wants to participate can "vote with their stake" by leasing it to this/these hub(s).

It takes 1440 blocks until a leased balance is in effect for forging.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: apenzl on August 15, 2014, 02:13:29 pm
DO NOT LEASE - then you cannot 'vote' with your stake.
ANY NEW LEASE TAKES 1440 BLOCKS TO BECOME EFFECTIVE!!

Thanks.  :-[
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: stdset on August 15, 2014, 02:13:55 pm
A rollback cannot be "partial". All transactions in all blocks after the theft will get unconfirmed anyway. May be all that transactions will be confirmed in the next block but it is still a rollback.
The only option is to hunt the hacker. Place a bounty on his head or balls )).
I had 80k NXT in Bter.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: troi+ on August 15, 2014, 02:14:21 pm
do not roll back
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Pilot on August 15, 2014, 02:14:33 pm
I still have 45 pages left to read. So, it could be resolved by now.

But, wouldn't it be possible for the biggest forgers to inject a tx into the block chain that moves these coins to another account without needing the PK of the sending account. If all the forgers agree this is a legit transaction the coin will move.

right?

A 51% agreed transaction?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Peter2516 on August 15, 2014, 02:14:48 pm
I'm not convinced to start forging on the alt chain either.
It would still mean cancelling regular transactions that are timed out by now but have nothing to do with the theft. So it would damage the trust in NXT.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: OnlytheTruth on August 15, 2014, 02:16:25 pm
NO ROLLBACK.  Hacker already won.  Let the market decide what happens.  Means we all get some cheap NXT and we can keep on trucking forward.  In the longview, this is a fender bender, not a total replacement(in car crash terms).
You don't lost anything, so you can say NO ROLLBACK.
The 50M is not belong to bter.
And there is no way for bter to refund all the people who lost.
That means lots of people will lost much money.

what happens to the other 950 million?

I suspect some of "no roll back" guys still don't understand how fucked up it would be for NXT if the hacker holds 5% of NXT in ransom. The ecosystem business will be basically dead.

Example: He can mess with every frigging businesses in NXT asset exchange  example: buying and dumping irrationally every assets and consequently NO sane person will have anything to do with NXT AE anymore. NXT ecosystem development will basically be going to a toilet for a LONG LONG LONG time.

So yeah : roll-back : some reputation damages ; no roll-back: there will be actual and tangible damages every single day. Both choices would hurt NXT significantly but I could see rolling-back is actually better.

Think over this scenario. Hacked NXT can be laundered via NXT AE. You cannot prevent the hacker doing that except for closing down the AE exchange.
WOW the hacker may not think of this option but it is not difficult to launder 50 million NXT for 300-400 BTC and destroy NXT AE exchange in the process.

rolling it back if you want NXT ecosystem to survive.
More supply in nxt could also lead to (hyper-) inflation in asset prices. Which might bring more people AE. As nobody can predict the future. We will only know after. Biggest asset of NXT is credibility. If you as an investor can not be sure that deals are final there will be no investors.

Outsiders will have nothing to do with NXT AE assets anymore if they are inflated by hacked money. Minimal credibility will be lost if forgers unite and the majority decide to roll back. But if the issue cannot be contained, the consequence could linger for months if not years. It would be very bad for NXT if the hacked NXT's hangover continue for months. 5% of the currency is a lot and could do a lot of damages for a LONG LONG time.   
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: HinnomTX on August 15, 2014, 02:17:32 pm
I forge. I won't be trying to rewrite history. This incident does not break the coin like the billion coin rollback of Bitcoin. It may be early days with NXT, but not that early.
This is not a popular stance, but the theft should stand. The theft legitimizes the value of the coin. The perceived value of the coin rises further if we maintain the discipline of keeping one ledger no matter what. (unless the coin is broken of course)
Now is the time for social engineering. Negotiate with the hacker. This is a million dollar heist. Let him fear for his life. Get the coins back the right way.

So stopping a theft from happening is the wrong way, but murdering someone is the 'right way'? That is seriously fucked up.
That's not what I said. The right way is to negotiate. Hacker's fear, guilt, and other emotions may contribute to a positive outcome. BTW It's not our duty to protect the hacker from self-inflicted harm. Hacker needs to think before clicking.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: bidji29 on August 15, 2014, 02:17:41 pm
Mining on the altchain put pressure on the hacker to accept the deal and give back the NXT to BTer
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: landomata on August 15, 2014, 02:18:06 pm
NO ROLLBACK.  Hacker already won.  Let the market decide what happens.  Means we all get some cheap NXT and we can keep on trucking forward.  In the longview, this is a fender bender, not a total replacement(in car crash terms).
You don't lost anything, so you can say NO ROLLBACK.
The 50M is not belong to bter.
And there is no way for bter to refund all the people who lost.
That means lots of people will lost much money.

what happens to the other 950 million?

I suspect some of "no roll back" guys still don't understand how fucked up it would be for NXT if the hacker holds 5% of NXT in ransom. The ecosystem business will be basically dead.

Example: He can mess with every frigging businesses in NXT asset exchange  example: buying and dumping irrationally every assets and consequently NO sane person will have anything to do with NXT AE anymore. NXT ecosystem development will basically be going to a toilet for a LONG LONG LONG time.

So yeah : roll-back : some reputation damages ; no roll-back: there will be actual and tangible damages every single day. Both choices would hurt NXT significantly but I could see rolling-back is actually better.

Think over this scenario. Hacked NXT can be laundered via NXT AE. You cannot prevent the hacker doing that except for closing down the AE exchange.
WOW the hacker may not think of this option but it is not difficult to launder 50 million NXT for 300-400 BTC and destroy NXT AE exchange in the process.

rolling it back if you want NXT ecosystem to survive.
More supply in nxt could also lead to (hyper-) inflation in asset prices. Which might bring more people AE. As nobody can predict the future. We will only know after. Biggest asset of NXT is credibility. If you as an investor can not be sure that deals are final there will be no investors.

Outsiders will have nothing to do with NXT AE assets anymore if they are inflated by hacked money. Minimal credibility will be lost if forgers unite and the majority decide to roll back. But if the issue cannot be contained, the consequence could linger for months if not years. It would be very bad for NXT if the hacked NXT's hangover continue for months. 5% of the currency is a lot and could do a lot of damages for a LONG LONG time.

What happens to Nxt credibility after roll back?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: cobaltskky on August 15, 2014, 02:18:14 pm
I am not updating my nodes to the new release until some major consensus is achieved that we are going that way. I say no account lock - looks worse for pr than the theft.  The blockchain is sacred. Make him cut a deal. Leverage the acct lock. I will contribute to the bounty for him. 5k Nxt from me.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: profitofthegods on August 15, 2014, 02:19:28 pm
Whether or not forgers choose to collude now has now bearing on whether or they are able to collude for less wholesome purposes in the future. Not doing this now will not stop forgers from colluding in the future.

This is important so I will share my thoughts.

If forgers/miners can collude to impact the chain in anyway this is a huge blow for nxt and crypto in general. We promote crypto as being better then cash. With this comes some drawbacks such as once a valid transaction has been processed on the network I should have no fear that the transaction could be reversed. Yes it sucks that bter had bad opsec, but if forgers/miners work together to destroy a specific valid transaction this will destroy NXT. This was not a NXT bug, this is equivalent to a bail-out by the fed of nxt.


Imagine sometime from now and a specific gov agency wants to recover some funds that they paid to a specific address. Forcing the forger accounts to collude to destroy transactions becomes a real risk. 

One of the issues I have with BTC is that it is pretty much controlled by a central dev team, only power the people would have if they do something against the spirit of BTC is to fork it and make an alt. If you believe that BTC is decentralized, you are still living a crypto pipe dream.

I would like to see automated, inherent to the blockchain fixes that prevent forgers from being able to rollback anything, anytime they collude together, although I understand how crypto works and if enough forgers/miners collude together to form their own 51% attack that is their choice, but we should research counters to this, not promote the idea to save our money!  Nxt has always had an image issue on the distribution of coins, this entire thought of thinking it would be ok to do this will destroy one of the best 2.0 cryptos around.

Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: atoms on August 15, 2014, 02:19:33 pm

Cryptoworld and media will still regard it as the result of a vote by a bunch of people on a forum, not an objective/neutral blockchain (and thus trustless) ruled by mathematics.
It's not vote by a bunch of people on a forum but the stakeholder's decision. If you don't have any nxt, you can't do nothing. The forum can't decide rollback or not.
Only the stakeholder can decide.
That's the key point of POS.
I don't understand why people think the rollback will destroy nxt.
If 51% of stakeholders agree rollback, then there is nothing wrong. Because it is the POS.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Coradan on August 15, 2014, 02:20:03 pm
I think rollback is not possible... What should happen with somebody has purchased NXT with BTC after hack?  He will lose his NXT and his BTC too...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: freeworm on August 15, 2014, 02:20:21 pm
forgers, we really need to upgrade to 1.2.5b to prevent to funds getting out from the hacked account.

please help us to use this version:

https://bitbucket.org/JeanLucPicard/nxt/downloads/nxt-client-1.2.5b.zip
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: stdset on August 15, 2014, 02:20:28 pm
I still have 45 pages left to read. So, it could be resolved by now.

But, wouldn't it be possible for the biggest forgers to inject a tx into the block chain that moves these coins to another account without needing the PK of the sending account. If all the forgers agree this is a legit transaction the coin will move.

right?

A 51% agreed transaction?
Sending funds without knowing private keys? Nothing could be worse than that. If you do this today, tomorrow they will confiscate your money because they just want to.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: notsoshifty on August 15, 2014, 02:20:47 pm
For what it's worth - and given my relatively small stake in what is a 100% PoS coin, not very much - my comment from the theft eight months ago applies here:

Quote from: notsoshifty
Much as I hate the thought of someone getting away with stealing nxt, I strongly disagree with any idea about hardcoding into the client something that freezes these (or any) accounts. It is the start of a slippery slope that leads to bad places.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: 4747...888 on August 15, 2014, 02:20:57 pm
Anyone can forge on 1.2.5b?
Getting error:
Code: [Select]
SEVERE: Error generating block nxt.NxtException$NotValidException: attempted to create a block with 262 transactions
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: profitofthegods on August 15, 2014, 02:21:29 pm

Cryptoworld and media will still regard it as the result of a vote by a bunch of people on a forum, not an objective/neutral blockchain (and thus trustless) ruled by mathematics.
It's not vote by a bunch of people on a forum but the stakeholder's decision. If you don't have any nxt, you can't do nothing. The forum can't decide rollback or not.
Only the stakeholder can decide.
That's the key point of POS.
I don't understand why people think the rollback will destroy nxt.
If 51% of stakeholders agree rollback, then there is nothing wrong. Because it is the POS.

Couldn't agree more. If you don't think this kind if thing should be possible, then you shouldn't own NXT because that's how it works.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: kLee on August 15, 2014, 02:21:46 pm
So the thieve found only pwd for NXT funds? Weird...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: youyou on August 15, 2014, 02:22:01 pm
I don't get something: if someone sells some NXT on the MGW and then withdraw the btc he bought. What happens if the blockchain is rolled back? The account of the NXT seller is recredited of the NXT he sold???
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Peter2516 on August 15, 2014, 02:22:17 pm

Cryptoworld and media will still regard it as the result of a vote by a bunch of people on a forum, not an objective/neutral blockchain (and thus trustless) ruled by mathematics.
It's not vote by a bunch of people on a forum but the stakeholder's decision. If you don't have any nxt, you can't do nothing. The forum can't decide rollback or not.
Only the stakeholder can decide.
That's the key point of POS.
I don't understand why people think the rollback will destroy nxt.
If 51% of stakeholders agree rollback, then there is nothing wrong. Because it is the POS.

That's the truth, but that is not how it will be remembered by the crypto-world.
NXT reputation will be hurt if we seem to 'decide' to do the rollback.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Coradan on August 15, 2014, 02:23:07 pm
I think rollback is not possible... What should happen with somebody has purchased NXT with BTC after hack?  He will lose his NXT and his BTC too...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: OnlytheTruth on August 15, 2014, 02:23:13 pm
NO ROLLBACK.  Hacker already won.  Let the market decide what happens.  Means we all get some cheap NXT and we can keep on trucking forward.  In the longview, this is a fender bender, not a total replacement(in car crash terms).
You don't lost anything, so you can say NO ROLLBACK.
The 50M is not belong to bter.
And there is no way for bter to refund all the people who lost.
That means lots of people will lost much money.

what happens to the other 950 million?

I suspect some of "no roll back" guys still don't understand how fucked up it would be for NXT if the hacker holds 5% of NXT in ransom. The ecosystem business will be basically dead.

Example: He can mess with every frigging businesses in NXT asset exchange  example: buying and dumping irrationally every assets and consequently NO sane person will have anything to do with NXT AE anymore. NXT ecosystem development will basically be going to a toilet for a LONG LONG LONG time.

So yeah : roll-back : some reputation damages ; no roll-back: there will be actual and tangible damages every single day. Both choices would hurt NXT significantly but I could see rolling-back is actually better.

Think over this scenario. Hacked NXT can be laundered via NXT AE. You cannot prevent the hacker doing that except for closing down the AE exchange.
WOW the hacker may not think of this option but it is not difficult to launder 50 million NXT for 300-400 BTC and destroy NXT AE exchange in the process.

rolling it back if you want NXT ecosystem to survive.
More supply in nxt could also lead to (hyper-) inflation in asset prices. Which might bring more people AE. As nobody can predict the future. We will only know after. Biggest asset of NXT is credibility. If you as an investor can not be sure that deals are final there will be no investors.

Outsiders will have nothing to do with NXT AE assets anymore if they are inflated by hacked money. Minimal credibility will be lost if forgers unite and the majority decide to roll back. But if the issue cannot be contained, the consequence could linger for months if not years. It would be very bad for NXT if the hacked NXT's hangover continue for months. 5% of the currency is a lot and could do a lot of damages for a LONG LONG time.

What happens to Nxt credibility after roll back?

If the forges unite and the majority decides to fork, the impact on reputation would be small. I can't say for sure but people will probably understand and probably forget soon enough. But if you let the hacked 50 million NXT run unchecked, the hangover will be felt everyday for years. 
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: TimmyD on August 15, 2014, 02:24:02 pm
if it only affects the one transaction how is this a roll back?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: landomata on August 15, 2014, 02:24:13 pm
So the thieve found only pwd for NXT funds? Weird...

STRANGE HE DIDN'T TAKE BTC TOO....
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 02:24:21 pm
calm down and let sort things logical if possible.

we now have a tool to undo the hack.
the hacker already has BTC from bter due to panicking

so, we should 'prepare' running the new nrs but wait until it
is sure hacker breaks the deal. this is the case when:

1. the hacker is touching the btc or nxt without any message
2. the max. time window - some spare time is closing to run the new nrs

if one of this happened the new nrs should be activated.
as a result the hacker still have the btc but we, as community,
should raise a bounty to hunt him. the hacker would be indeed
very silly to risk all this just for those btc.

and btw, running the new nrs doesn't violate anything because
decentralisation isn't an end in itself but has the propose to
serve many instead minors. understanding this, the new nrs delivers
exactly the demand behind decentralisation, using common sense
by many, this is decentralisation in my definition.

important would be to handle an exact timeframe for this but as said,
it is not sure the deal is broken.

We have less than a day :/
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: stdset on August 15, 2014, 02:24:33 pm
freeworm, Bter is finished, realize it, and don't try to take Nxt down with you.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: lucky88888 on August 15, 2014, 02:24:59 pm
omg did i just saw

209886   8/16/2014 00:20:41   0   2   2   NXT-8MC8-EWER-G9RH-GLEFU
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Jacinto on August 15, 2014, 02:25:03 pm
I think rollback is not possible... What should happen with somebody has purchased NXT with BTC after hack?  He will lose his NXT and his BTC too...

You are wrong Coradan. Read this:

https://nxtforum.org/nrs-releases/nrs-v1-2-5b/ (https://nxtforum.org/nrs-releases/nrs-v1-2-5b/)

Only the bter's account outgoing transactions are erased. The rest will be retransmitted without problem.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: lucky88888 on August 15, 2014, 02:25:40 pm
So the thieve found only pwd for NXT funds? Weird...

STRANGE HE DIDN'T TAKE BTC TOO....

i thought the hacker said he cleared 500btc from bter.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: williamevanl on August 15, 2014, 02:26:02 pm
You guys are really playing with fire here... Doing a rollback, blacklisting coins, this sets a really bad precedent for NXT. It could never fully recover from having done this.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Peter2516 on August 15, 2014, 02:26:09 pm
I think rollback is not possible... What should happen with somebody has purchased NXT with BTC after hack?  He will lose his NXT and his BTC too...

You are wrong Coradan. Read this:

https://nxtforum.org/nrs-releases/nrs-v1-2-5b/ (https://nxtforum.org/nrs-releases/nrs-v1-2-5b/)

Only the bter's account outgoing transactions are erased. The rest will be retransmitted without problem.

Also regular transactions that timed out will be cancelled.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: cobaltskky on August 15, 2014, 02:26:10 pm
Not years. We will track him down and make him pay in some form. The nxt can be tracked. Code can be written to follow it. Exchanges can blacklist acct. Seize funds moved to them from those accts.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: youyou on August 15, 2014, 02:26:22 pm
I think rollback is not possible... What should happen with somebody has purchased NXT with BTC after hack?  He will lose his NXT and his BTC too...

I wonder too..... If it's a real rollback, i think the NXT buyer loose all
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: nexern on August 15, 2014, 02:26:27 pm
What happens to Nxt credibility after roll back?

i can tell you, for those with a deeper understanding why all this crypto,
this decision will demonstrate that MANY people located everywhere on this planet
are able to decide on a FREE WILL to follow THEIR INDIVIDUAL COMMON SENSE
and therefore confirm that crypto works.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 02:26:38 pm
I think a partial rollback is acceptable. Plus we have a lead on the hacker so all is dandy  :-*
I'm changing my mind about the roll back. some good points made about the havock that can be caused by a malicious entity controlling 5% of nxt! as long as it is decided by the community and not forced by the devs I think it is ok. it's starting to seem like the lessor of two evils and with a lead on the hacker he may be caught in the end.
I think a partial rollback is acceptable. Plus we have a lead on the hacker so all is dandy  :-*


Sent from my C1905 using Tapatalk

This!!

We have to choose between a douche and a turd sandwich
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: TimmyD on August 15, 2014, 02:26:43 pm
ive made a decentralised decision to run the new fork, i believe this is not centralization, i chose to do it no one decided for me
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: jefdiesel on August 15, 2014, 02:26:51 pm
i vote for tech and math over gut
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: landomata on August 15, 2014, 02:27:08 pm
Not years. We will track him down and make him pay in some form. The nxt can be tracked. Code can be written to follow it. Exchanges can blacklist acct. Seize funds moved to them from those accts.

+1
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 02:27:13 pm
Looks like our biggest stake holder 4747...888 is forging in the "alternative" branch:

https://nxtforum.org/nrs-releases/nrs-v1-2-5b/msg82625/#msg82625 (https://nxtforum.org/nrs-releases/nrs-v1-2-5b/msg82625/#msg82625)

Forging power is suming up to F*ck the hacker  :D

:)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: lezin on August 15, 2014, 02:27:42 pm
Not years. We will track him down and make him pay in some form. The nxt can be tracked. Code can be written to follow it. Exchanges can blacklist acct. Seize funds moved to them from those accts.

Exact, but rewriting the blockchain is a hard decision.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 02:27:57 pm
ive made a decentralised decision to run the new fork, i believe this is not centralization, i chose to do it no one decided for me

Good for you dude ! :)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Coradan on August 15, 2014, 02:28:49 pm
I think rollback is not possible... What should happen with somebody has purchased NXT with BTC after hack?  He will lose his NXT and his BTC too...

You are wrong Coradan. Read this:

https://nxtforum.org/nrs-releases/nrs-v1-2-5b/ (https://nxtforum.org/nrs-releases/nrs-v1-2-5b/)

Only the bter's account outgoing transactions are erased. The rest will be retransmitted without problem.

Also regular transactions that timed out will be cancelled.

There are transactions NXT/BTC on BTER after the hack!

What should happen with somebody has sold BTC by NXT after hack from BTER?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: davethetrousers on August 15, 2014, 02:29:24 pm
i can tell you, for those with a deeper understanding why all this crypto,
this decision will demonstrate that MANY people located everywhere on this planet
are able to decide on a FREE WILL to follow THEIR INDIVIDUAL COMMON SENSE
and therefore confirm that crypto works.

This is exactly the case!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: atoms on August 15, 2014, 02:30:04 pm
freeworm, Bter is finished, realize it, and don't try to take Nxt down with you.
Do your really think if NO ROLLBack, NXT will not be affected by the whole thing?
Yes the thief can't cash it out in the exchange, but he can ruin the AE.
And no one can stop him. The NXT will be destory then.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Riker on August 15, 2014, 02:30:49 pm
Anyone can forge on 1.2.5b?
Getting error:
Code: [Select]
SEVERE: Error generating block nxt.NxtException$NotValidException: attempted to create a block with 262 transactions

The limit is 255 transactions per block.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: prometheus on August 15, 2014, 02:31:16 pm
if a rollback happens, how many people do you think will dump NXT the second they can? Maybe NXT will lose users because people disagree with this. Loss of users --> drop in price. Will victims of the hack actually want these coins back in the long run? How much value will be lost?



i don't see it as a good thing, but then again, i haven't lost any NXT in this incident. i'll certainly be thinking about reducing my holdings in NXT though, due to the effect this will have on the coin's image. i think confidence in legitimacy of the blockchain will drop. i understand the "democratic vote" argument but i don't think the general population of crypto users will buy it

Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: frohlocke on August 15, 2014, 02:31:30 pm
NO ROLLBACK.  Hacker already won.  Let the market decide what happens.  Means we all get some cheap NXT and we can keep on trucking forward.  In the longview, this is a fender bender, not a total replacement(in car crash terms).
You don't lost anything, so you can say NO ROLLBACK.
The 50M is not belong to bter.
And there is no way for bter to refund all the people who lost.
That means lots of people will lost much money.

what happens to the other 950 million?

I suspect some of "no roll back" guys still don't understand how fucked up it would be for NXT if the hacker holds 5% of NXT in ransom. The ecosystem business will be basically dead.

Example: He can mess with every frigging businesses in NXT asset exchange  example: buying and dumping irrationally every assets and consequently NO sane person will have anything to do with NXT AE anymore. NXT ecosystem development will basically be going to a toilet for a LONG LONG LONG time.

So yeah : roll-back : some reputation damages ; no roll-back: there will be actual and tangible damages every single day. Both choices would hurt NXT significantly but I could see rolling-back is actually better.

Think over this scenario. Hacked NXT can be laundered via NXT AE. You cannot prevent the hacker doing that except for closing down the AE exchange.
WOW the hacker may not think of this option but it is not difficult to launder 50 million NXT for 300-400 BTC and destroy NXT AE exchange in the process.

rolling it back if you want NXT ecosystem to survive.
More supply in nxt could also lead to (hyper-) inflation in asset prices. Which might bring more people AE. As nobody can predict the future. We will only know after. Biggest asset of NXT is credibility. If you as an investor can not be sure that deals are final there will be no investors.

Outsiders will have nothing to do with NXT AE assets anymore if they are inflated by hacked money. Minimal credibility will be lost if forgers unite and the majority decide to roll back. But if the issue cannot be contained, the consequence could linger for months if not years. It would be very bad for NXT if the hacked NXT's hangover continue for months. 5% of the currency is a lot and could do a lot of damages for a LONG LONG time.

What happens to Nxt credibility after roll back?

If the forges unite and the majority decides to fork, the impact on reputation would be small. I can't say for sure but people will probably understand and probably forget soon enough. But if you let the hacked 50 million NXT run unchecked, the hangover will be felt everyday for years.
So were is the limit for a rollback 1% or less of all coins? Could we also define rollback for asset scams? Are nxt rich people deciding about that?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: igmaca on August 15, 2014, 02:32:28 pm
I would be in favor of the following view of the experience.

Only to allow the exchange into mgw !!!  :-\
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: landomata on August 15, 2014, 02:33:11 pm

i don't see it as a good thing, but then again, i haven't lost any NXT in this incident. i'll certainly be thinking about reducing my holdings in NXT though, due to the effect this will have on the coin's image. i think confidence in legitimacy of the blockchain will drop. i understand the "democratic vote" argument but i don't think the general population of crypto users will buy it

I agree this is not a bug threatening Nxt but a fault of a third party.  Once you lose credibility it is very hard to get it back.


Did Bitcoin price suffer with the heist at MTGOX?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: coretechs on August 15, 2014, 02:33:42 pm
I remember this one time when Mt. Gox briefly convinced most of the bitcoin community that nearly a million BTC were stolen because of tx malleability...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: hash on August 15, 2014, 02:34:40 pm
[...]The blockchain is sacred.[...]

The NXT blockchain becomes sacred after 720 blocks. The newest 720 blocks are not sacred. I believe it was designed like this for a reason / reasons.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: kLee on August 15, 2014, 02:35:07 pm
So the thieve found only pwd for NXT funds? Weird...

STRANGE HE DIDN'T TAKE BTC TOO....

i thought the hacker said he cleared 500btc from bter.
Any link/reference?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Peter2516 on August 15, 2014, 02:35:15 pm
With the optimal NXT distribution we all strive for, millions of people forging, it wouldn't even be possible to get them all discussing issues like this on a forum, and getting them to start forging on a fork.

So in the optimal future situation, forgers don't collude.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 02:35:20 pm
if a rollback happens, how many people do you think will dump NXT the second they can? Maybe NXT will lose users because people disagree with this. Loss of users --> drop in price. Will victims of the hack actually want these coins back in the long run? How much value will be lost?



i don't see it as a good thing, but then again, i haven't lost any NXT in this incident. i'll certainly be thinking about reducing my holdings in NXT though, due to the effect this will have on the coin's image. i think confidence in legitimacy of the blockchain will drop. i understand the "democratic vote" argument but i don't think the general population of crypto users will buy it

Don't think anyone will find a way around the NXT price will fall dramatically because of this. Unless the hacker just holds the Nxt like a whale would do. 
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: prometheus on August 15, 2014, 02:35:37 pm
once TF is implemented, this would take a 90% consensus to do, correct?

i would be in complete agreement with that. if 90% of forgers decide to rewrite, then it should be written. i don't know if 51% is convincing enough



anyways, I think this should be yet another lesson: DO NOT KEEP COINS ON EXCHANGES! If you're still doing this after Gox, then that is your fault. i would love to swing trade but the risk of trusting centralized exchanges is just too much now. please learn from this
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: cobaltskky on August 15, 2014, 02:36:06 pm
What would bcnext do?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: empowering on August 15, 2014, 02:36:43 pm
Defend NXT which ever way is best.


Let BTER take a LARGE amount of the responsibility on this...   it was them after all that got hacked-  NXT needs to defend NXT , BTER can come and go, NXT needs to stay.

I am in two minds on best way forward... all apart from one thing- resolved or not.. roll back or not, NXT or not...

that hacker... needs his ass handed to him and his hands clipped together with some police hardware.. that would be worth spending some NXT/BTC £$ on..   

apart form that personally I think that- as it is a BTER hack problem- the responsibility should be in their court...



Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Pilot on August 15, 2014, 02:37:00 pm
Be careful upon the closure of the deal. At X juncture may make more sense for hacker to keep NXT than to receive BTC.

The final 10 BTC should be sent via escrow like http://cosign.co.in/
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on August 15, 2014, 02:38:23 pm
http://www.coindesk.com/bter-nxt-bitcoin-exchange-hack/

On Coindesk now.

They forgot to explain why it's important to do the reorg within 720 blocks. Well, maybe it doesn't really matter.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Pilot on August 15, 2014, 02:38:45 pm
BTER has in the past come to the aid of the Nxt community when community and individual funds were at risk or lost.  If it was other exchange I would say no.

I say yes to BTER: we should fix their loss.

It looks like BTER is paying. So, set up a BTC address for donations to make BTER whole again. Although, I'd like to see them remove that withdrawal fee. ;)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 02:39:29 pm
Be careful upon the closure of the deal. At X juncture may make more sense for hacker to keep NXT than to receive BTC.

The final 10 BTC should be sent via escrow like http://cosign.co.in/


Lol look at the account
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: starfishi on August 15, 2014, 02:40:03 pm
guys don't rollback please. i think hacker will return nxt.

read the change log - its not a complete rollback... the affected BTER account is locked and therefore if successful the theft never happened but the other legitimate TX's will be reconfirmed in the fork that is created.

This is scarry, from wich sum on, can i request a rollback, 50 mil, 5mil, 500 k, ? Especially a selective one, people could misuse this. So, as hard as it is, no rollback, its not possible, it would destroy the fundamentals of NXT, or any CC. Sorry.
Bter should try to negotiate the NXT-BTC-deal further, whatever is possible, it is also in the interest of the thief, because if he does not comply, probably james, or others, interested in the resulting huge bounty on his head, will show us, that all the "mixing" and "ringsignaturing" doesnt really work, and only "teleporting" is the future ...  I´m burning to know,anyway, james !

If there is a selective rollback, it will destroy the fundamentals of NXT and Cryptocurrencies. And if there´s a general rollback, just tell me, I´ll sell my NXT now, and after rollback, I have them magically back, is it really possible to handle all transactions after a rollback ?

edit: ok, ok, nobody wants my NXT right now, I know.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: OnlytheTruth on August 15, 2014, 02:40:22 pm
I would be in favor of the following view of the experience.

Only to allow the exchange into mgw !!!  :-\

OH please mgw is basically a centralized server in disguise. There is no reason to think mgw operators are more careful than the BTER's owner. it is actually much less secure because mgw operators are amateurs.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: lucky88888 on August 15, 2014, 02:40:57 pm
So the thieve found only pwd for NXT funds? Weird...

STRANGE HE DIDN'T TAKE BTC TOO....

i thought the hacker said he cleared 500btc from bter.
Any link/reference?

8949490421422923694   NXT-8WJ7-8A2H-MBYN-3W9K4   NXT-LSC3-VB9T-2W3V-BH7FB   So, what taking so long? Send me the next batch already. I'm going to leave soon. It's already 2 hours of negotiation, it took me 1 hour to clean your whole exchanger. BTC 500+ I'm not going to sit here, and wait 2 more hours for you to decide to send the lousy 10 BTC.   2014-08-15 12:17:39
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: landomata on August 15, 2014, 02:41:38 pm
I would be in favor of the following view of the experience.

Only to allow the exchange into mgw !!!  :-\

OH please mgw is basically a centralized server in disguise. There is no reason to think mgw operators are more careful than the BTER's owner. it is actually much less secure because mgw operators are amateurs.

MGW didn't lose 50 million nxt because of negligence.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Valtiel on August 15, 2014, 02:42:13 pm
hello. first time posting here to be honest i open my account just to post about the robbery and show my opinion about
warning: bad english expected.

i think we must rollback for mere pragmatic reasons as i see that rollback could eb considered a plus for non hardcore nxter or crypto fans lets be honest. regular joe dont care about privacy or decentralization than how they care about lost all their savings just cause some guy forget secure a simple account. regular joe expect someone protect their savings cause he/she cant just cause they dont techie savvy. bter can be blamed beacuse they naive enough to pay 100 btc to someone without ethic enough to hack and steal someone else. you simply cant trust that kind of people. in fact that guy i using the decentralization and privacy in his favor cause he live in the fiat based world and he not care about our ideal. you guys really expect someone who dont erspect our rules play with our rules? the best is make a rollback and not just that. the best is create a exchanges coallition and a nxt security bureau with enough power to freeze and rollback single accounts under a vote sytem where if 51% of the whole forging power votes to rollback they could do it. cryptos must mature from idealism to ideal system where no just the hardcore gamers feel comfy. we must assure regular people is safe here. the fact bter pay 100 btc coul play in favor of nxt. if we rollback the transaction and return the 50m ntx we can show regular joes they more safe here than any other coin just using the fact these 50m nxt got returned and how those 100 btc cant be. lets turn this blow against nxt in our best allie. is time to evolve in a main player beacuse we can accept we not just another "freaks" group like linux users who no matter they have the best OS. they still stuck as underdog. lets use this little hacker scum in our best ally to make nxt look like a safe haven for everyone when other cryptos cant protect them.

here my 2 cents. and sorry for my bad english. note nglish speaking native.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: prometheus on August 15, 2014, 02:42:17 pm
if there is a rollback, I'll just sell a bunch of NXT before it happens and send the money to my bank account. Then I get my coins back and keep the FIAT?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: ThomasVeil on August 15, 2014, 02:42:41 pm
I don't like the idea of freezing one account, because(seen from an outside observer) that means this community could attack a single person or businesses account if they don't like them. Bad precedence.

I find it strange to read that. The whole NXT idea is built on the fact that the community (specifically the majority of stake holders) can decide about the blockchain.
Secondly - if we don't do it now, it doesn't create assurance that it will never happen. The system is built so that it can happen.

And then there is the part where a NXT thief gets away with 3100BTC worth of crypto. Can buy himself a little island, lean back - and concentrate on hacking even more. While the honest NXT supporters (Bter and their clients) get hurt.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Jacinto on August 15, 2014, 02:43:42 pm
if there is a rollback, I'll just sell a bunch of NXT before it happens and send the money to my bank account. Then I get my coins back and keep the FIAT?

Nope.

Again, read here:

https://nxtforum.org/nrs-releases/nrs-v1-2-5b/ (https://nxtforum.org/nrs-releases/nrs-v1-2-5b/)

Only Bter account's outgoing transactions are erased.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: devphp on August 15, 2014, 02:44:06 pm
They forgot to explain why it's important to do the reorg within 720 blocks. Well, maybe it doesn't really matter.

Why is it 720 by the way? Not any other number?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: kLee on August 15, 2014, 02:44:42 pm
So the thieve found only pwd for NXT funds? Weird...

STRANGE HE DIDN'T TAKE BTC TOO....

i thought the hacker said he cleared 500btc from bter.
Any link/reference?

8949490421422923694   NXT-8WJ7-8A2H-MBYN-3W9K4   NXT-LSC3-VB9T-2W3V-BH7FB   So, what taking so long? Send me the next batch already. I'm going to leave soon. It's already 2 hours of negotiation, it took me 1 hour to clean your whole exchanger. BTC 500+ I'm not going to sit here, and wait 2 more hours for you to decide to send the lousy 10 BTC.   2014-08-15 12:17:39
Wow..
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: prometheus on August 15, 2014, 02:44:59 pm
if there is a rollback, I'll just sell a bunch of NXT before it happens and send the money to my bank account. Then I get my coins back and keep the FIAT?

Nope.

Again, read here:

https://nxtforum.org/nrs-releases/nrs-v1-2-5b/ (https://nxtforum.org/nrs-releases/nrs-v1-2-5b/)

Only Bter account's outgoing transactions are erased.

ok, that is good to know
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: kodtycoon on August 15, 2014, 02:45:21 pm
The two versions of nrs are now released. It is the people's choice now. If the rollback happens and people loose mgwbtc then bter should reimburse the lose of those funds as it is their fault we are dealing with this shit storm. Let the people of the community decide by choosing the red or blue pill!

Sent from my C1905 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Peter2516 on August 15, 2014, 02:45:54 pm

The whole NXT idea is built on the fact that the community (specifically the majority of stake holders) can decide about the blockchain.

I think ideally nobody can decide on the blockchain, because it wouldn't be possible to get future millions of forgers to collude on a fork.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: landomata on August 15, 2014, 02:46:26 pm
if there is a rollback, I'll just sell a bunch of NXT before it happens and send the money to my bank account. Then I get my coins back and keep the FIAT?

Nope.

Again, read here:

https://nxtforum.org/nrs-releases/nrs-v1-2-5b/ (https://nxtforum.org/nrs-releases/nrs-v1-2-5b/)

Only Bter account's outgoing transactions are erased.

ok, that is good to know

This release disables all outgoing transactions from the BTER account:
10715382765594435905 after block height 209885.

If you use this release, existing blocks after that height will be deleted,
but the transactions in them preserved and reprocessed, except those originating
from the BTER account, and those with deadline already expired.


what about the last part?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: kLee on August 15, 2014, 02:46:30 pm
I would be in favor of the following view of the experience.

Only to allow the exchange into mgw !!!  :-\

OH please mgw is basically a centralized server in disguise. There is no reason to think mgw operators are more careful than the BTER's owner. it is actually much less secure because mgw operators are amateurs.

MGW didn't lose 50 million nxt because of negligence.
Bter was in the same position before some hours...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: cobaltskky on August 15, 2014, 02:46:51 pm
I say, if this happened to a bank with cash, no way to rollback out of that theft. If we want crypto to replace cash in the minds of consumers, it needs to work in a similar way.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Pilot on August 15, 2014, 02:47:13 pm
hacker did not sent 5M to bter? :'(

Are we surprised. This was no white hat hack.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: OnlytheTruth on August 15, 2014, 02:47:32 pm
I would be in favor of the following view of the experience.

Only to allow the exchange into mgw !!!  :-\

OH please mgw is basically a centralized server in disguise. There is no reason to think mgw operators are more careful than the BTER's owner. it is actually much less secure because mgw operators are amateurs.

MGW didn't lose 50 million nxt because of negligence.

no sane people will store even 10K$ on MGW. So yes no chance for them to lose that much money. Re-read what I wrote "mgw is basically a centralized server in disguise" and "mgw operators are amateurs compare to BTER". It is just fortunate that hackers couldn't care for mgw to exploit it.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Peter2516 on August 15, 2014, 02:47:40 pm

if there is a rollback, I'll just sell a bunch of NXT before it happens and send the money to my bank account. Then I get my coins back and keep the FIAT?

I think it depends on the timeout you use in your transaction. Only transactions that haven't timed out yet will be repeated in new blocks.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: devphp on August 15, 2014, 02:48:40 pm
The two versions of nrs are now released. It is the people's choice now. If the rollback happens and people loose mgwbtc then bter should reimburse the lose of those funds as it is their fault we are dealing with this shit storm. Let the people of the community decide by choosing the red or blue pill!

Sent from my C1905 using Tapatalk

blue pill - 1.2.5b, you wake up in your bed like nothing happened,
red pill - older true chain, that's people who take responsibility for their actions.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Coradan on August 15, 2014, 02:48:47 pm
The 1.2.5b is rollback or only erases the 7 outgoing transactions of the BTER address 10715382765594435905 (hack transactions and next)???
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Jacinto on August 15, 2014, 02:48:50 pm
So the thieve found only pwd for NXT funds? Weird...

STRANGE HE DIDN'T TAKE BTC TOO....

i thought the hacker said he cleared 500btc from bter.
Any link/reference?

8949490421422923694   NXT-8WJ7-8A2H-MBYN-3W9K4   NXT-LSC3-VB9T-2W3V-BH7FB   So, what taking so long? Send me the next batch already. I'm going to leave soon. It's already 2 hours of negotiation, it took me 1 hour to clean your whole exchanger. BTC 500+ I'm not going to sit here, and wait 2 more hours for you to decide to send the lousy 10 BTC.   2014-08-15 12:17:39
Wow..


ummmmmm i dont think the hacker took 500BTC from bter....

In that case freeworm would tell us about this.

Anyway, I also find really weird that only NXT pass was compromised...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: prometheus on August 15, 2014, 02:48:56 pm

if there is a rollback, I'll just sell a bunch of NXT before it happens and send the money to my bank account. Then I get my coins back and keep the FIAT?

I think it depends on the timeout you use in your transaction. Only transactions that haven't timed out yet will be repeated in new blocks.

someone just replied to my post and said that only BTER transactions will be rewritten


i'm sticking with old chain...the outcome is 50/50 in my opinion. either decision could have serious detrimental effects. tough spot to be in...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: cobaltskky on August 15, 2014, 02:49:41 pm
Sounds like it's up to the community now. Debate has been had. Positions on both sides clarified. Vote with your forging power and by running or not running the new client. Simple as that at this point.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Peter2516 on August 15, 2014, 02:50:14 pm

someone just replied to my post and said that only BTER transactions will be rewritten

Release notes also say: "..and those with deadline already expired."
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: landomata on August 15, 2014, 02:50:29 pm
I would be in favor of the following view of the experience.

Only to allow the exchange into mgw !!!  :-\

OH please mgw is basically a centralized server in disguise. There is no reason to think mgw operators are more careful than the BTER's owner. it is actually much less secure because mgw operators are amateurs.

MGW didn't lose 50 million nxt because of negligence.

LOL no sane people will store even 10K$ on MGW except the operators themselves. So yes no chance for them to lose that much money. Re-read what I wrote "mgw is basically a centralized server in disguise" and "mgw operators are amateurs compare to BTER". It is just fortunate that hackers couldn't care for mgw to exploit it.

I doubt MGW operators would be so negligent in regards to security.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: nexern on August 15, 2014, 02:50:41 pm
I don't like the idea of freezing one account, because(seen from an outside observer) that means this community could attack a single person or businesses account if they don't like them. Bad precedence.

I find it strange to read that. The whole NXT idea is built on the fact that the community (specifically the majority of stake holders) can decide about the blockchain.
Secondly - if we don't do it now, it doesn't create assurance that it will never happen. The system is built so that it can happen.

And then there is the part where a NXT thief gets away with 3100BTC worth of crypto. Can buy himself a little island, lean back - and concentrate on hacking even more. While the honest NXT supporters (Bter and their clients) get hurt.

this is correct, if the blockchain doesn't serve us but we serve the blockchain then
the blockchain becomes an equivalent to a central bank. as long as any action is based
on free decisions of majority the action is fine, no matter how it looks to others.

bter was and is a reliable partner for the nxt community and they deserve our support
if needed.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Coradan on August 15, 2014, 02:51:17 pm
The 1.2.5b is rollback or only erases the 7 outgoing transactions of the BTER address 10715382765594435905 (hack transactions and next)???
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Fatih87SK on August 15, 2014, 02:51:26 pm
I say, if this happened to a bank with cash, no way to rollback out of that theft. If we want crypto to replace cash in the minds of consumers, it needs to work in a similar way.

The customers of a bank don't lose money when a Bank got hacked.

Right now, there are a lot of people that lost money so there is a lot of emotion.

Not a good comparison.

I still don't know what's the best solution for this though.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: ThomasVeil on August 15, 2014, 02:52:21 pm
Again, read here:

https://nxtforum.org/nrs-releases/nrs-v1-2-5b/ (https://nxtforum.org/nrs-releases/nrs-v1-2-5b/)

Only Bter account's outgoing transactions are erased.


Just quoting so everyone new is clear on that important fact. :)

Also - some people seem not to be up to date on:
- Bter sent already 110 BTC
- The thief since has not sent the NXT back (though had agreed on that earlier)

Since Bter is asking for the reorg still, one can assume there are no fruitful negotiations behind the scene.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: empowering on August 15, 2014, 02:53:06 pm
So the thieve found only pwd for NXT funds? Weird...

STRANGE HE DIDN'T TAKE BTC TOO....

i thought the hacker said he cleared 500btc from bter.
Any link/reference?

8949490421422923694   NXT-8WJ7-8A2H-MBYN-3W9K4   NXT-LSC3-VB9T-2W3V-BH7FB   So, what taking so long? Send me the next batch already. I'm going to leave soon. It's already 2 hours of negotiation, it took me 1 hour to clean your whole exchanger. BTC 500+ I'm not going to sit here, and wait 2 more hours for you to decide to send the lousy 10 BTC.   2014-08-15 12:17:39
Wow..

more than wow..
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Peter2516 on August 15, 2014, 02:54:48 pm
http://cointelegraph.com/news/112278/breaking-bter-hacked-50m-nxt-stolen

Much better article than Coindesk article.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: trivialcode on August 15, 2014, 02:55:13 pm
bter was and is a reliable partner for the nxt community and they deserve our support
if needed.
How about DGEX? It was here for NXT even when Bter didn't know anything about NXT.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: ThomasVeil on August 15, 2014, 02:56:30 pm

The whole NXT idea is built on the fact that the community (specifically the majority of stake holders) can decide about the blockchain.

I think ideally nobody can decide on the blockchain, because it wouldn't be possible to get future millions of forgers to collude on a fork.

Why not? It just needs a good enough reason.
Transparent forging will raise the stakes to 90% - which is IMO OK once the distribution is better. But if 90% agree that one party is a bad actor, then I really don't see whats wrong with acting on that.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 02:57:02 pm
I say, if this happened to a bank with cash, no way to rollback out of that theft. If we want crypto to replace cash in the minds of consumers, it needs to work in a similar way.

The customers of a bank don't lose money when a Bank got hacked.

Right now, there are a lot of people that lost money so there is a lot of emotion.

Not a good comparison.

I still don't know what's the best solution for this though.

This is one reason the general public doesn't accept crypto's from my readings of business articles, random rants about bitcoin, etc. Is because there is no charge-back features, whichdoes clash against the thinking of many here but better or for worse. But for many of the average joes and business people, if they become a victim of fraud/stealing the banks and/or credit card companies are there to help them get their money back.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: megashira1 on August 15, 2014, 02:57:07 pm
I see the collective coming together issueing a rollback as a GOOD THING. We as a community are working together to HELP EACHOTHER. A central entity is not deciding the roll back but the collectivity of many forgers. I don't think the repurcussions of a rollback are as bad as you guys think. The repurcussions of having 50mill NXT floating around with a hacker are far more damaging than having a rollback. Lesser of 2 evils if you will, but i don't even think a rollback in this instance is evil but virtuous.

THIS IS WHAT REAL COMMUNITIES DO, HELP EACHOTHER IN TIMES OF NEED, NOT SAY FUCK IT YOUR LOSS BLABLABLA
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Jacinto on August 15, 2014, 02:58:22 pm
Better news for the "alternative" chain supporters:

I am working on bugfixes so expect 1.2.5c soon.

Later the BTER account can be unfrozen and an outgoing transaction allowed to a specified account only, so that those funds can be returned to BTER.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: rtrtcrypto on August 15, 2014, 02:58:43 pm
NO to re-org. Captain will go down with the ship if needed - all captains in this case.

Negotiate with attacker, escrow 100 btc and get at least 40 million nxt back. If not, so be it.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: TimmyD on August 15, 2014, 02:59:19 pm
my 1.2.5b wont download chain past the theft block?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: trivialcode on August 15, 2014, 02:59:26 pm
I hate this "Too big to fail" thinking. Sad to see it at NXT forum.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Pilot on August 15, 2014, 03:00:27 pm
It's shocking to see that such a big percentage of the NXT community doesn't clearly grasp the reality that, "rolling back the block chain will quite literally kill NXT forever."

A community EDUCATION EFFORT is needed to inform Nxters on the irreversible, damning consequences of manually rolling back the block chain.

It has completely shaken me that this option was even on the table, given that Bter was at fault, not NXT.

Agreed. Remember when vericoin did a rollback after the mintpal hack and all the NXTers disagreed with it?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Darkhorse on August 15, 2014, 03:00:56 pm
Damage done, either way nxt will be judged and will be affected. Best thing to do is minimize the damage. Blue pill or red pill ? They are still pills given to sick.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 03:00:59 pm
NO to re-org. Captain will go down with the ship if needed - all captains in this case.

Negotiate with attacker, escrow 100 btc and get at least 40 million nxt back. If not, so be it.

BTER already gave 110 BTC to the hacker with 5M NXT being returned although the deal was for it all to be returned.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: megashira1 on August 15, 2014, 03:01:15 pm
What provides more confidence for crypto newbs?

50mill NXT was stolen once and never returned (what people can steal that much and get away with it wtf?!??!)

or

50mill NXT was once stolen and the community worked together in retrieving it back and so noone was harmed by the theft.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Jacinto on August 15, 2014, 03:02:05 pm
NO to re-org. Captain will go down with the ship if needed - all captains in this case.

Negotiate with attacker, escrow 100 btc and get at least 40 million nxt back. If not, so be it.

BTER already gave 110 BTC to the hacker for 5000000 NXT in return.

FTFY
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: OnlytheTruth on August 15, 2014, 03:03:19 pm
I would be in favor of the following view of the experience.

Only to allow the exchange into mgw !!!  :-\

OH please mgw is basically a centralized server in disguise. There is no reason to think mgw operators are more careful than the BTER's owner. it is actually much less secure because mgw operators are amateurs.

MGW didn't lose 50 million nxt because of negligence.

LOL no sane people will store even 10K$ on MGW except the operators themselves. So yes no chance for them to lose that much money. Re-read what I wrote "mgw is basically a centralized server in disguise" and "mgw operators are amateurs compare to BTER". It is just fortunate that hackers couldn't care for mgw to exploit it.

I doubt MGW operators would be so negligent in regards to security.

I am not judging MGW operators but good security is an ongoing process which is VERY difficult to maintain. The problem with BTER, poloniex, mintpal and many other exchanges is that they have too many coins and it is difficult not to make a mistake once in a while. There are just so many attack vectors. Look at Graviton, who can say he is not careful? and he has only a few trading pairs. Sorry but i am not trusting a bunch of amateurs doing exchange security. If you are not hacked yet, it is because hacker do not care for you YET. 
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Sydney Blanchard on August 15, 2014, 03:03:59 pm
It's shocking to see that such a big percentage of the NXT community doesn't clearly grasp the reality that, "rolling back the block chain will quite literally kill NXT forever."

A community EDUCATION EFFORT is needed to inform Nxters on the irreversible, damning consequences of manually rolling back the block chain.

It has completely shaken me that this option was even on the table, given that Bter was at fault, not NXT.

Agreed. Remember when vericoin did a rollback after the mintpal hack and all the NXTers disagreed with it?

Guys, remember when the Bitcoin devs performerd a rollback and Bitcoin carried on just fine? I'm guessing not?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: tersagun on August 15, 2014, 03:04:38 pm
IF there is a "trick" to only freeze/undo BTER account, seriously, why not doing it?

How come protecting everyone's coins, the well-being of NXT itself is against decentralization, while 1 person's mistake + 1 person's hack is for decentralization?

If there is something wrong on the decentralization front, it must be that only 2 persons are enough to give the ecosystem a huge damage.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: IanDeMartino on August 15, 2014, 03:04:47 pm
[forum says I can't post external links?]

Much better article than Coindesk article.


Thank you! and for everyone, feel free to ping me if you think I made any mistakes and the article needs a correction.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: lucky88888 on August 15, 2014, 03:05:30 pm
pretty hard to sync up with the new release whats up with that? couldn't get pass 209005 or something i forgot which block. is it because of the battle of chains?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 03:06:00 pm
So if it is that Luc is creating a new NRS that freezes the account and makes it only able to transfer to a certain account. With NO other accounts being affected. I say DO EET. It doesn't affect any others other than the BTER and hacker account.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Coradan on August 15, 2014, 03:08:16 pm
I cant understand, if 1.2.5b version only erases the 7 outgoing transactions of the BTER address 10715382765594435905 (hack transactions and next), why dont release a new version for every people 1.2.6=1.2.5b and one problem less...

 :o :o :o
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: landomata on August 15, 2014, 03:08:35 pm

I am not judging MGW operators but good security is an ongoing process which is VERY difficult to maintain. The problem with BTER, poloniex, mintpal and many other exchanges is that they have too many coins and it is difficult not to make a mistake once in a while. There are just so many attack vectors. Look at Graviton, who can say he is not careful? and he has only a few trading pairs. Sorry but i am not trusting a bunch of amateurs doing exchange security. If you are not hacked yet, it is because hacker do not care for you YET.

The hacker clearly showed that same passphrase was used for multiple accounts...even same as the server account.

You don't keep 50 million nxt BELONGING TO OTHER PEOPLE in an account with the same password you use with for your other accounts.

Am I wrong in this?

P.S. We are all customers of Bter I think we deserve better.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Peter2516 on August 15, 2014, 03:08:49 pm

So if it is that Luc is creating a new NRS that freezes the account and makes it only able to transfer to a certain account. With NO other accounts being affected. I say DO EET. It doesn't affect any others other than the BTER and hacker account.

Also regular transactions that timed out will be cancelled, which could damage trust in the blockchain.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Vega on August 15, 2014, 03:09:58 pm
I cant understand, if 1.2.5b version only erases the 7 outgoing transactions of the BTER address 10715382765594435905 (hack transactions and next), why dont release a new version for every people 1.2.6=1.2.5b and one problem less...

 :o :o :o

Because that would be a centralised decision. This is the decentralised way, every forger can decide what action they support. Majority rules.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: apenzl on August 15, 2014, 03:10:55 pm
forgers, we really need to upgrade to 1.2.5b to prevent to funds getting out from the hacked account.

please help us to use this version:

[bitbucketlink]

Pls link to the thread, not the file. Erase the direct link pls, and ppl don't click it.

It's not that I don't (or do) trust you, freeworm, it's just that we've experienced certain problems caused by NRS links in quotes before.  ;)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Coradan on August 15, 2014, 03:11:02 pm
I cant understand, if 1.2.5b version only erases the 7 outgoing transactions of the BTER address 10715382765594435905 (hack transactions and next), why dont release a new version for every people 1.2.6=1.2.5b and one problem less...

 :o :o :o

Because that would be a centralised decision. This is the decentralised way, every forger can decide what action they support.

But it can be a centralised decision, because it is not a rollback... It is something like a bug fix or similar...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: TimmyD on August 15, 2014, 03:11:18 pm
im at 209885 in new chain, apparantly downloading the new chain but its stuck there
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: bitcoinpaul on August 15, 2014, 03:11:30 pm
forgers, we really need to upgrade to 1.2.5b to prevent to funds getting out from the hacked account.

please help us to use this version:

[bitbucketlink]

Pls link to the thread, not the file. Erase the direct link pls, and ppl don't click it.

It's not that I don't (or do) trust you, freeworm, it's just that we've experienced certain problems caused by NRS links in quotes before.  ;)

Good old times.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Peter2516 on August 15, 2014, 03:12:38 pm

But it can be a centralised decision, because it is not a rollback... It is something like a bug fixed or similar...
As far as I understand it (I'm not a techie), it is a rollback. Some transactions that have nothing to do with the theft will still be cancelled. I have no idea how many, what the volume of those would be.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: lucky88888 on August 15, 2014, 03:13:17 pm
im at 209885 in new chain, apparantly downloading the new chain but its stuck there

same
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 03:14:12 pm
What provides more confidence for crypto newbs?

50mill NXT was stolen once and never returned (what people can steal that much and get away with it wtf?!??!)

or

50mill NXT was once stolen and the community worked together in retrieving it back and so noone was harmed by the theft.

But here tho go rambling about it is not decentralized bblablabla srsly if you lost money you will talk differently
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 03:15:07 pm
forgers, we really need to upgrade to 1.2.5b to prevent to funds getting out from the hacked account.

please help us to use this version:

[bitbucketlink]

Pls link to the thread, not the file. Erase the direct link pls, and ppl don't click it.

It's not that I don't (or do) trust you, freeworm, it's just that we've experienced certain problems caused by NRS links in quotes before.  ;)

Good old times.

ah I certainly remember that time...changed my account because of it  :P
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: megashira1 on August 15, 2014, 03:15:57 pm
What provides more confidence for crypto newbs?

50mill NXT was stolen once and never returned (what people can steal that much and get away with it wtf?!??!)

or

50mill NXT was once stolen and the community worked together in retrieving it back and so noone was harmed by the theft.

But here tho go rambling about it is not decentralized bblablabla srsly if you lost money you will talk differently

I am losing money because of this.

You think having 50mill NXT floating around with a hacker wont be more damaging than a minute rollback? Decentralization doesn't mean inability to cooperate on community objectives.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Coradan on August 15, 2014, 03:16:47 pm

But it can be a centralised decision, because it is not a rollback... It is something like a bug fixed or similar...
As far as I understand it (I'm not a techie), it is a rollback. Some transactions that have nothing to do with the theft will still be cancelled. I have no idea how many, what the volume of those would be.

There are only 7 outgoing transactions from BTER address: http://nxtreporting.com/?ac=10715382765594435905, so only these transactions are erased with the 1.2.5b, if I have understood the issue in the right way...

Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Fatih87SK on August 15, 2014, 03:17:24 pm
I am working on bugfixes so expect 1.2.5c soon.

Later the BTER account can be unfrozen and an outgoing transaction allowed to a specified account only, so that those funds can be returned to BTER.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: semibaron on August 15, 2014, 03:17:32 pm
im at 209885 in new chain, apparantly downloading the new chain but its stuck there

same


JRL is working on a fixed version 1.2.5c
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Cassius on August 15, 2014, 03:18:54 pm
What happens to everyone running the old version - will they need to update once this is decided one way or another?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: tersagun on August 15, 2014, 03:20:47 pm
BTW what happens with the 50k forge reward?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 03:21:00 pm
What happens to everyone running the old version - will they need to update once this is decided one way or another?

I believe if nothing is changed (the transfer from bter to hacker nxt account isn't removed) then the 1.2.5 is still the main one, if not then the 1.2.5b/1.2.5c/etc is the new main one.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: ThomasVeil on August 15, 2014, 03:21:10 pm
Forkedchains hub apparently stays on the old chain (https://nxtforum.org/index.php?topic=1020.msg82790#msg82790).
Any word on the CharityHub? It was the biggest pool.
I'm sure ppl already messaged ChuckOne.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Darkhorse on August 15, 2014, 03:21:32 pm
How do we know which nrs won and when?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Valtiel on August 15, 2014, 03:21:57 pm
as i see thatsa  good chance to show everyone as comunity. we can handle hackers ina stylish way. keep everyone money safe and create a dieal decentralized commite with centralized system advantages. to be a real 2.0 comunity we must start thinking as a 2.0 comunity. take the best of both world and dont get stucked with old 1.0 concepts.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Neomadra on August 15, 2014, 03:22:15 pm
I leased my balance to chucks charity hub, so does anybody know whether he is helping with rollback or not? Just curious ...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Pilot on August 15, 2014, 03:22:19 pm
I don't see BTER staying open after this. I seriously can't believe how bad their security was when they lured people in with 'interest'.

I  hope that's not the case. But, I just made a withdrawl account for some Via I had sitting there. Better to lose 2% to the fee, than all of it.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: starfishi on August 15, 2014, 03:22:30 pm
So, I just transfered to my business-partner 5 mil NXT for merchandise, which i like, but don´t want to pay. Please, forgers, could you do a rollback, please. I know this all is about a theft, but what is my business, please decide. I say, my business is theft also, so, rollback please, thank you.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: hash on August 15, 2014, 03:22:45 pm
im at 209885 in new chain, apparantly downloading the new chain but its stuck there

same

You need to start forging via http://localhost:7876/test
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: markus1000 on August 15, 2014, 03:23:53 pm
Rollback shouldnt not happen, thats no in the interest of Nxt. If exchanges mess up things, c'est la vie. Move to decentralized trading.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 03:24:09 pm
So, I just transfered to my business-partner 5 mil NXT for merchandise, which i like, but don´t want to pay. Please, forgers, could you do a rollback, please. I know this all is about a theft, but what is my business, please decide. I say, its theft also, so, rollback please, thank you.

I believe everything not including hacker and bter account still occurs. So your thing won't get a rollback.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Peter2516 on August 15, 2014, 03:25:11 pm

I believe everything not including hacker and bter account still occurs. So your thing won't get a rollback.

Depends on the timeout setting of the transaction...
But I'd really like some more explanation by the devs on this. It's rather quiet.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: kLee on August 15, 2014, 03:25:20 pm
https://twitter.com/btercom/status/500301278027608064
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: bitcoinpaul on August 15, 2014, 03:26:01 pm
Wtf
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Jacinto on August 15, 2014, 03:26:28 pm
https://twitter.com/btercom/status/500301278027608064

I dont know if it is a  :D or a complete  :'(
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 03:26:41 pm
https://twitter.com/btercom/status/500301278027608064

okay so the chinese exchange is gonna go full force on this guy...if/when they find him.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Peter2516 on August 15, 2014, 03:26:45 pm

https://twitter.com/btercom/status/500301278027608064
As if Bter could decide to roll back or not :D
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Fatih87SK on August 15, 2014, 03:26:51 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/4Xjk5rq.png)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on August 15, 2014, 03:26:56 pm
Well, the rollback is cancelled. Dunno if it's good or bad coz I wanted to see what share of the stake would decide to rollback the changes. Taking into account that only small part of the nodes upgraded to 1.2.5b I can guess that only a small part agreed to play this game. But still...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: slothbag on August 15, 2014, 03:27:12 pm
I think we are witnessing how hard it is to get consensus to rollback even in the relatively small Nxt community..

PoS for the win!  Blockchain is safe :)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Valtiel on August 15, 2014, 03:27:39 pm
Rollback shouldnt not happen, thats no in the interest of Nxt. If exchanges mess up things, c'est la vie. Move to decentralized trading.

blockchain could be rollbacked but human memory no. bter must pay with lost of confidence in them but no good reason to make people pay beacuse bter cant apply apropiated safety measures. thats why i suport rollback. those 50m nxt must be frozen and returned to the real owners and if they smart oens they take their coins out of bter as soon they can and let bter deal with those 110 btc they cant rollback
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: mess on August 15, 2014, 03:28:04 pm
My thoughts

First of all, I want to say that I am sad because of the situation that BTER is passing through at the moment. I can't imagine how difficult it is to lose that ammount of money. I hope things get resolved in their favor.

Whether the fork is or is not a good idea, I ask the community: Are we going to do this everytime exchange/person/entity 'X' loses a significant amount of nxt for some reason (e.g. got robbed, etc)? Or are we going to do this just to help BTER? I agree that BTER has helped the community a lot with stolen funds and I recognize the value of this kind of effort, but we must also recognize that this kind of decision has a big impact on the nxt ecosystem. The situation in which BTER is can happen to someone else in the future, and I think it will be likely that that someone else will consider "asking the devs/community for a nxt fork" an option.

I am not saying that we should *always* handle this kind of situation the same way, but I encourage that we must think forward (in the future) before taking a decision as a community. I think that forking to help BTER and not doing it to help 'X' would have some kind of negative effect on the community, which is why I think that we as a community should be consistent with the way we handle this kind of situation.

By saying what I said above, I am not expressing myself against or in favor of this decision. I am in favor of *consistency*, because (again,) I think that not being consistent will have some kind of negative effect on the ecosystem. I could be wrong though.

There are other ways we can help BTER as a community, for example, we can collect funds to help them. I agree that it will probably not help them recover everything, but at least we are doing something to help. Or we can also aim to catch the bad guy.

Either way, I will kindly accept the decision that the community takes.

My apologies for my bad English. It is not my first language.

My 2 cents.

Best regards,
- mess
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Sebastien256 on August 15, 2014, 03:28:36 pm
https://twitter.com/btercom/status/500301278027608064

ho that is good!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Cassius on August 15, 2014, 03:29:56 pm
Let's hope they have enough information to follow through and find him.
If so, best outcome by far.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Fatih87SK on August 15, 2014, 03:30:25 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/4Xjk5rq.png)

Hahahah

(http://i.imgur.com/iCr21Dr.png)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: msin on August 15, 2014, 03:31:36 pm
Well, the rollback is cancelled. Dunno if it's good or bad coz I wanted to see what share of the stake would decide to rollback the changes. Taking into account that only small part of the nodes upgraded to 1.2.5b I can guess that only a small part agreed to play this game. But still...

Well, I started running 1.2.5b and then changed my mind and started running 1.2.5 again.  If that's not decentralized thinking, I don't know what is.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Peter2516 on August 15, 2014, 03:31:43 pm

Taking into account that only small part of the nodes upgraded to 1.2.5b I can guess that only a small part agreed to play this game. But still...

I think it's likely many nodes didn't know about the forking/rollback-possibility, or they didn't know how to start forging on the fork (download a file, switch to testnet etc).
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Jacinto on August 15, 2014, 03:32:13 pm
Well, the rollback is cancelled.

Who "decided" this? Bter? you? all of us but we didn't notice yet?

 ;)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: antanst on August 15, 2014, 03:32:31 pm
Well, the rollback is cancelled. Dunno if it's good or bad coz I wanted to see what share of the stake would decide to rollback the changes. Taking into account that only small part of the nodes upgraded to 1.2.5b I can guess that only a small part agreed to play this game. But still...

Nice experiment. Hey, why not play another game, maybe a new release with another quirk?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: jd1959 on August 15, 2014, 03:32:42 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/4Xjk5rq.png)

has bter confirmed this is real.....and not hacker stopping changes?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 03:32:56 pm

Taking into account that only small part of the nodes upgraded to 1.2.5b I can guess that only a small part agreed to play this game. But still...

I think it's likely many nodes didn't know about the forking/rollback-possibility, or they didn't know how to start forging on the fork (download a file, switch to testnet etc).

you have to switch to testnet  ??? oops...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: sparta_cuss on August 15, 2014, 03:33:06 pm
No rollback: good. If we did, tomorrow's headline would read, "Nxt community sells out concept of decentralization for $1.75 Million."
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Damelon on August 15, 2014, 03:33:24 pm

Well, the rollback is cancelled. Dunno if it's good or bad coz I wanted to see what share of the stake would decide to rollback the changes. Taking into account that only small part of the nodes upgraded to 1.2.5b I can guess that only a small part agreed to play this game. But still...

Well, I started running 1.2.5b and then changed my mind and started running 1.2.5 again.  If that's not decentralized thinking, I don't know what is.

You win some sort of medal
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: msin on August 15, 2014, 03:35:19 pm
I get the feeling this might be some sort of inside job, Bter just realized it was one of their guys and they now feel confident then can resolve it.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: bitcoinpaul on August 15, 2014, 03:36:19 pm
I get the feeling this might be some sort of inside job, Bter just realized it was one of their guys and they now feel confident then can resolve it.

When does the Nxt movie come out?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 03:36:35 pm
Let's hope they have enough information to follow through and find him.
If so, best outcome by far.

lol the customers are doomed.

remember klee?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: BitcoinForumator on August 15, 2014, 03:36:40 pm
Bter/lin/sugarpuss or whatever:

When are you going to enable whitdrawals for all coins?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Peter2516 on August 15, 2014, 03:37:11 pm
Now the best thing that could happen is if the hacker gets arrested because of his ip address etc, and the money returned to Bter and then their customers.
Or maybe the hacker strikes a deal with that guy offering to buy the loot at a price higher than Bter offered, and the new megawhale acts responsibly and doesn't dump the NXT.
Or the loot gets dumped and many new whales buy in and wait till price rises again...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 03:38:16 pm
I get the feeling this might be some sort of inside job, Bter just realized it was one of their guys and they now feel confident then can resolve it.

When does the Nxt movie come out?

srsly dude just stfu

you are not funny
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Jacinto on August 15, 2014, 03:38:37 pm
Damelon, VanBreuk, CfB....

I suppose you have been in contact with Bter all day, Can you confirm that they are speaking "certainity" and not a sort of bluff that will become in a even worse outcome?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Sebastien256 on August 15, 2014, 03:40:04 pm
I get the feeling this might be some sort of inside job, Bter just realized it was one of their guys and they now feel confident then can resolve it.

When does the Nxt movie come out?

srsly dude just stfu

you are not funny

it is bitcoinpaul buddy. You now understand why smite has been changed to bitcoinpaul.. lol
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 03:40:07 pm
Now the best thing that could happen is if the hacker gets arrested because of his ip address etc, and the money returned to Bter and then their customers.
Or maybe the hacker strikes a deal with that guy offering to buy the loot at a price higher than Bter offered, and the new megawhale acts responsibly and doesn't dump the NXT.
Or the loot gets dumped and many new whales buy in and wait till price rises again...

I think the hacker responds after the 740 something confirmations have passed.

He still wants more BTC, I am sure of that, a hacker is the ultimatum of GREED.

he will come back for more BTC! and dumping NXT is not the way to go ;)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: msin on August 15, 2014, 03:40:56 pm
Let's hope they have enough information to follow through and find him.
If so, best outcome by far.

lol the customers are doomed.

remember klee?

Yeah, but kLee didn't have the luxury of a rollback option, so he had no choice but to go after the hacker as soon as he could.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 03:41:04 pm
I get the feeling this might be some sort of inside job, Bter just realized it was one of their guys and they now feel confident then can resolve it.

When does the Nxt movie come out?

srsly dude just stfu

you are not funny

it is bitcoinpaul buddy. You now understand why smite has been changed to bitcoinpaul.. lol

 ;D
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: bitcoinpaul on August 15, 2014, 03:41:45 pm
I get the feeling this might be some sort of inside job, Bter just realized it was one of their guys and they now feel confident then can resolve it.

When does the Nxt movie come out?

srsly dude just stfu

you are not funny

Relax, I lost some NXT too.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on August 15, 2014, 03:42:25 pm
once TF is implemented, this would take a 90% consensus to do, correct?

In a perfect world it would be 100% but there is latency on the Internet...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 03:42:43 pm
Let's hope they have enough information to follow through and find him.
If so, best outcome by far.

lol the customers are doomed.

remember klee?

Yeah, but kLee didn't have the luxury of a rollback option, so he had no choice but to go after the hacker as soon as he could.

surprise me bter :) catch that thief! xD
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: ThomasVeil on August 15, 2014, 03:43:24 pm
Confirmation that this is really BTER and that they didn't use the same password for twitter would be nice.

Also: Really hope they don't call it too early like Klee did with his scammer - when he thought he had him.
Won't get my hopes up for the best outcome (guy in jail, money back). Sadly, it would be a first. Not even scammers known by name and address had to return funds - let alone got punished.
Anyways: Go bter! Get the bastard.

Well, I started running 1.2.5b and then changed my mind and started running 1.2.5 again.  If that's not decentralized thinking, I don't know what is.

ROTFL
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: kLee on August 15, 2014, 03:43:27 pm
Let's hope they have enough information to follow through and find him.
If so, best outcome by far.

lol the customers are doomed.

remember klee?
I got 1/4th back - do you know anybody else achieving something like this?
And why do you relate the two incidents? Maybe you know something? Please indulge us...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Damelon on August 15, 2014, 03:43:27 pm

Damelon, VanBreuk, CfB....

I suppose you have been in contact with Bter all day, Can you confirm that they are speaking "certainity" and not a sort of bluff that will become in a even worse outcome?

Thanks!

I can shed no light on this, as I just received the first message via Lin and passed it on to Wesley and CfB.

So I just don't know.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: HinnomTX on August 15, 2014, 03:44:17 pm
Well, the rollback is cancelled. Dunno if it's good or bad coz I wanted to see what share of the stake would decide to rollback the changes. Taking into account that only small part of the nodes upgraded to 1.2.5b I can guess that only a small part agreed to play this game. But still...
The NXT developers should NEVER have enabled a rollback in the first place. Jean-Luc should not have produced custom software to edit the blockchain.
The custom software ostensibly allowed the community to 'make a choice', but in reality no choice should have been allowed. The coin itself was functioning exactly as it should, and did not have any technical problems.  We are not in the business of bailing out exchanges, and even if we were, we would quickly set up the moral hazard of allowing lazy, insecure exchanges to exist. The parallels to the existing corrupt banking system should be obvious for all to see.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Pilot on August 15, 2014, 03:44:43 pm
guys don't rollback please. i think hacker will return nxt.

read the change log - its not a complete rollback... the affected BTER account is locked and therefore if successful the theft never happened but the other legitimate TX's will be reconfirmed in the fork that is created.

I am not arguing either way but I think people need to consider what s proposed accurately.

BTW THIS WAS NOT A NXT PASSPHRASE ATTACK - this was due to BTER server passwords!!

EDIT: Another thought the attacker holds between 10-15% of the NXT in circulation - that in itself is a weapon.

Yes, I read the change log, and that is actually different than what I thought would happen. What happens after the blockchain rewrite? BTER has the money but the hacker still has the passphrase? How can BTER move the NXT to a new wallet if that IS is blocked?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 03:45:03 pm
Let's hope they have enough information to follow through and find him.
If so, best outcome by far.

lol the customers are doomed.

remember klee?
I got 1/4th back - do you know anybody else achieving something like this?
And why do you relate the two incidents? Maybe you know something? Please indulge us...

sorry I went to far.

I just am getting a little pissed of because I get the feeling the thief will not get caught, ever
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: starfishi on August 15, 2014, 03:45:24 pm
So, lets say, I just transfered to my business-partner 5 mil NXT for merchandise, which i like, but don´t want to pay. Please, forgers, could you do a rollback, please. I know this all is about a theft, but what is my business, please decide. I say, my business is theft also, so, rollback please, thank you.

Answer my request please. I have to know, on what I can count on ?!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: kLee on August 15, 2014, 03:45:29 pm
Let's hope they have enough information to follow through and find him.
If so, best outcome by far.

lol the customers are doomed.

remember klee?

Yeah, but kLee didn't have the luxury of a rollback option, so he had no choice but to go after the hacker as soon as he could.
I also had to rely on a volunteer thinking he found him - the only stupid thing I did back then was not to cross check his finding with another expert...

It cost me 3M nxt and the community's 'relaxation' for my case...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Damelon on August 15, 2014, 03:45:54 pm

Well, the rollback is cancelled. Dunno if it's good or bad coz I wanted to see what share of the stake would decide to rollback the changes. Taking into account that only small part of the nodes upgraded to 1.2.5b I can guess that only a small part agreed to play this game. But still...
The NXT developers should NEVER have enabled a rollback in the first place. Jean-Luc should not have produced custom software to edit the blockchain.
The custom software ostensibly allowed the community to 'make a choice', but in reality no choice should have been allowed. The coin itself was functioning exactly as it should, and did not have any technical problems.  We are not in the business of bailing out exchanges, and even if we were, we would quickly set up the moral hazard of allowing lazy, insecure exchanges to exist. The parallels to the existing corrupt banking system should be obvious for all to see.

Which is why it's great that it turns out the Nxt community understood this and took the route of showing it knew why we are in crypto.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 03:45:58 pm
guys don't rollback please. i think hacker will return nxt.

read the change log - its not a complete rollback... the affected BTER account is locked and therefore if successful the theft never happened but the other legitimate TX's will be reconfirmed in the fork that is created.

I am not arguing either way but I think people need to consider what s proposed accurately.

BTW THIS WAS NOT A NXT PASSPHRASE ATTACK - this was due to BTER server passwords!!

EDIT: Another thought the attacker holds between 10-15% of the NXT in circulation - that in itself is a weapon.

Yes, I read the change log, and that is actually different than what I thought would happen. What happens after the blockchain rewrite? BTER has the money but the hacker still has the passphrase? How can BTER move the NXT to a new wallet if that IS is blocked?

Luc was creating a 1.2.5c that locked an account between the bter account and a specific account. Instead of any account like the hackers.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: coolfish on August 15, 2014, 03:46:25 pm
Criminal acts should be restored
Major accident should be defended
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: kLee on August 15, 2014, 03:47:03 pm
Let's hope they have enough information to follow through and find him.
If so, best outcome by far.

lol the customers are doomed.

remember klee?
I got 1/4th back - do you know anybody else achieving something like this?
And why do you relate the two incidents? Maybe you know something? Please indulge us...

sorry I went to far.
No worries, I am waiting for theft's GREED and this maybe the opportunity I look for...

He will deeply regret it if he is the same guy.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on August 15, 2014, 03:48:26 pm
Why is it 720 by the way? Not any other number?

Coz it's max number of blocks within which the blockchain can be reorganized without hurting transactions that were sent with default deadline.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: PoofKnuckle on August 15, 2014, 03:48:33 pm
I think we are witnessing how hard it is to get consensus to rollback even in the relatively small Nxt community..

PoS for the win!  Blockchain is safe :)

This is a relief. I like Bter, I really do - I have had a good experience with them as an exchange, and I like what they did about those stolen funds, but the blockchain is not to be &^%$ed with. If there were a rollback, wouldn't that mean that everyone else who had conducted transactions within the rollback period would have their transactions cancelled? If so, how is that fair? Users need to know that their transactions using NXT are secure, and not subject to reversal because an organization they have nothing to do with screwed the pooch on their own security measures.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: msin on August 15, 2014, 03:49:45 pm
Let's hope they have enough information to follow through and find him.
If so, best outcome by far.

lol the customers are doomed.

remember klee?

Yeah, but kLee didn't have the luxury of a rollback option, so he had no choice but to go after the hacker as soon as he could.
I also had to rely on a volunteer thinking he found him - the only stupid thing I did back then was not to cross check his finding with another expert...

It cost me 3M nxt and the community's 'relaxation' for my case...

Yeah, it was a really shitty situation, anyway, it's good to see you here.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: sepehr on August 15, 2014, 03:50:45 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/4Xjk5rq.png)

Hahahah

(http://i.imgur.com/iCr21Dr.png)

I also started the new NRS on one device and wanted to do it on my other nodes, But this type of actions from BTER avoid me from running 1.2.5b and I'm back to 1.2.5 on all my nodes again!
Let's Face it! 8)  :-[
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: vladimirceman91 on August 15, 2014, 03:50:53 pm
Is more than 50% of FORGERS required to participate in rollback or more than 50% of FORGING POWER ?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Peter2516 on August 15, 2014, 03:51:24 pm

Criminal acts should be restored
Major accident should be defended

The definition of 'criminal act' will creep.
By design it should be impossible to interfere.

After 'transparent forging' (if I understand correctly) it will take 90+ % to interfere, in other words: impossible when there are millions of people forging.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: gs02xzz on August 15, 2014, 03:54:24 pm


It seems there is no need for rollback. Bter will handle it by themselves. - https://twitter.com/btercom/status/500301278027608064
Quote
We have decided not to rollback but get the stolen funds back from the hacker since we have got lots of information of him.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: TwinWinNerD on August 15, 2014, 03:54:42 pm
Is more than 50% of FORGERS required to participate in rollback or more than 50% of FORGING POWER ?

Forging power.

So about 250M NXT
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: bitcoinpaul on August 15, 2014, 03:55:07 pm
Is more than 50% of FORGERS required to participate in rollback or more than 50% of FORGING POWER ?

Power. "Reorg"
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: BitcoinForumator on August 15, 2014, 03:55:41 pm
(http://cdn.meme.li/instances/500x/53554291.jpg)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: youyou on August 15, 2014, 03:56:03 pm
I know it's sad for people who lost money, but do we want a world where we are responsible for our mistakes or a world where someone else takes decisions for us?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: devphp on August 15, 2014, 03:56:42 pm
Is more than 50% of FORGERS required to participate in rollback or more than 50% of FORGING POWER ?

Forging power.

So about 250M NXT

Actually about ~600m NXTs forge, so 300m would be 50%.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: coretechs on August 15, 2014, 03:57:03 pm
No rollback: good. If we did, tomorrow's headline would read, "Nxt community sells out concept of decentralization for $1.75 Million."

It wouldn't sell out the concept of decentralization.  Either outcome would have been the result of a decentralized consensus among forgers, as opposed to a central entity. 

The devs provided the tools for the community to make their choice, however I don't agree that it was the right thing to do given the fact that this was not a software bug.

Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Jacinto on August 15, 2014, 03:59:19 pm
Is bter communicating in other means apart from that "questionable" tweets?

Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: devphp on August 15, 2014, 03:59:29 pm
The devs provided the tools for the community to make their choice, however I don't agree that it was the right thing to do given the fact that this was not a software bug.

CfB always said NXT is a social experiment, not just a crypto currency, so they did a little experiment with providing that tool. It didn't hurt and showed that NXT community is dedicated to principles of crypto currencies, which makes NXT stronger in the long run.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Cryptplayer on August 15, 2014, 03:59:40 pm
Popcorn  :o :o :o
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Peter2516 on August 15, 2014, 04:00:15 pm
No rollback: good. If we did, tomorrow's headline would read, "Nxt community sells out concept of decentralization for $1.75 Million."

It wouldn't sell out the concept of decentralization.  Either outcome would have been the result of a decentralized consensus among forgers, as opposed to a central entity. 

Good luck explaining that to the general crypto community :)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 04:00:48 pm
I know it's sad for people who lost money, but do we want a world where we are responsible for our mistakes or a world where someone else takes decisions for us?

so everyone stop trading
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Buratino on August 15, 2014, 04:00:53 pm
So, Account Control is most wanted option now?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Peter2516 on August 15, 2014, 04:01:36 pm
The devs provided the tools for the community to make their choice, however I don't agree that it was the right thing to do given the fact that this was not a software bug.

CfB always said NXT is a social experiment, not just a crypto currency, so they did a little experiment with providing that tool. It didn't hurt and showed that NXT community is dedicated to principles of crypto currencies, which makes NXT stronger in the long run.

Or it just showed that it's hard to get forgers to understand how to start forging on a fork. Sentiment on the forum seemed to be 50-50.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: crimi on August 15, 2014, 04:02:10 pm
Quote
We have decided not to rollback but get the stolen funds back from the hacker since we have got lots of information of him.

How they can even say they decided? Are they representing Nxt?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Fatih87SK on August 15, 2014, 04:02:11 pm
So, Account Control is most wanted option now?
Yes please. I'm tired of all the negativity because people cannot secure their account properly.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: HinnomTX on August 15, 2014, 04:02:16 pm
No rollback: good. If we did, tomorrow's headline would read, "Nxt community sells out concept of decentralization for $1.75 Million."

It wouldn't sell out the concept of decentralization.  Either outcome would have been the result of a decentralized consensus among forgers, as opposed to a central entity. 

The devs provided the tools for the community to make their choice, however I don't agree that it was the right thing to do given the fact that this was not a software bug.
+1440
The devs have way too much power. The act of releasing custom software to modify the blockchain enables the moral dilemma. JL should have ignored his messages and slept in late.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 04:03:17 pm
Quote
We have decided not to rollback but get the stolen funds back from the hacker since we have got lots of information of him.

How they can even say they decided? Are they representing Nxt?

Never gonna use BTER anymore
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: rdanneskjoldr on August 15, 2014, 04:03:30 pm
The devs provided the tools for the community to make their choice, however I don't agree that it was the right thing to do given the fact that this was not a software bug.

CfB always said NXT is a social experiment, not just a crypto currency, so they did a little experiment with providing that tool. It didn't hurt and showed that NXT community is dedicated to principles of crypto currencies, which makes NXT stronger in the long run.


Or it just showed that it's hard to get forgers to understand how to start forging on a fork. Sentiment on the forum seemed to be 50-50.

Its just that the people who wanted to, made more noise on the forums.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Cryptplayer on August 15, 2014, 04:04:50 pm
they find he or we are rollback? soon too late for both  ??? ???
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: cobaltskky on August 15, 2014, 04:05:01 pm
Quote
We have decided not to rollback but get the stolen funds back from the hacker since we have got lots of information of him.

How they can even say they decided? Are they representing Nxt?

Never gonna use BTER anymore

BTER and Mintpal are both on my shit list.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Pilot on August 15, 2014, 04:05:51 pm
I think rollback is not possible... What should happen with somebody has purchased NXT with BTC after hack?  He will lose his NXT and his BTC too...

BTER said they would cover these type of loses. Although, now they they sent 100BTC to the hacker they might no longer be so willing.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: HinnomTX on August 15, 2014, 04:06:12 pm
Quote
We have decided not to rollback but get the stolen funds back from the hacker since we have got lots of information of him.

How they can even say they decided? Are they representing Nxt?

Never gonna use BTER anymore
Debating whether to use NXT anymore
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Cryptplayer on August 15, 2014, 04:06:19 pm
i have boith crypti and nxt..  >:(
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: bgcaffe on August 15, 2014, 04:06:26 pm
This incident has brought to light a dilemma, whether the block chain should ever be altered or not will probably always raise debate.

However as a business owner and looking at NXT from the perspective of a system to assist the community to build new exciting systems that allow individuals, smaller companies and even larger ones to grow without the aging and bloated banking systems that we currently rely on and more importantly give back, it seems natural that this system needs to be safe and secure. These types of hacks scare off adopters like no other and whats worse is that when the hacker gets away with it, it just promotes this type of behavior, as the attraction of stealing such a large amount of money is just too much for some.

So the ability for the community to protect its interests seems natural, not reversing this transaction seems unnatural. Such large incidents that harm so many people cannot just be allowed to go forward for the "Ideal" of block chain immutability. In fact in future there will no doubt be systems in place to prevent these types of lawless transactions, perhaps special types of wallets that operate on rules or votes, perhaps only exchanged would use these types of wallets with rules attached, where as regular users could opt not to and users would easily be able to see what rules the transaction is applicable to.

So the argument to say that NXT will collapse if it changes the blockchain I feel is not valid. NXT will collapse if it the community behind it does not behave intelligently and protect those who are invested in it the right way and I believe having so many good people loose so much due to one persons ill doings is not intelligent at all.

Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 04:06:29 pm
they find he or we are rollback? soon too late for both  ??? ???

Exactly.

The thief will wait till the 720 confirms are past and then he will ask for more BTC
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Pilot on August 15, 2014, 04:07:13 pm
I still have 45 pages left to read. So, it could be resolved by now.

But, wouldn't it be possible for the biggest forgers to inject a tx into the block chain that moves these coins to another account without needing the PK of the sending account. If all the forgers agree this is a legit transaction the coin will move.

right?

A 51% agreed transaction?
Sending funds without knowing private keys? Nothing could be worse than that. If you do this today, tomorrow they will confiscate your money because they just want to.

It about the same as what 1.2.5b is doing, however, at least this way no valid transaction will be lost.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 04:07:57 pm
This incident has brought to light a dilemma, whether the block chain should ever be altered or not will probably always raise debate.

However as a business owner and looking at NXT from the perspective of a system to assist the community to build new exciting systems that allow individuals, smaller companies and even larger ones to grow without the aging and bloated banking systems that we currently rely on and more importantly give back, it seems natural that this system needs to be safe and secure. These types of hacks scare off adopters like no other and whats worse is that when the hacker gets away with it, it just promotes this type of behavior, as the attraction of stealing such a large amount of money is just too much for some.

So the ability for the community to protect its interests seems natural, not reversing this transaction seems unnatural. Such large incidents that harm so many people cannot just be allowed to go forward for the "Ideal" of block chain immutability. In fact in future there will no doubt be systems in place to prevent these types of lawless transactions, perhaps special types of wallets that operate on rules or votes, perhaps only exchanged would use these types of wallets with rules attached, where as regular users could opt not to and users would easily be able to see what rules the transaction is applicable to.

So the argument to say that NXT will collapse if it changes the blockchain I feel is not valid. NXT will collapse if it the community behind it does not behave intelligently and protect those who are invested in it the right way and I believe having so many good people loose so much due to one persons ill doings is not intelligent at all.

You took the words out of my brain!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: msin on August 15, 2014, 04:08:12 pm
It would have been really interesting to see how it would have played out after 24 hours.  We never really had the time to run the fork.  Anyway, offering the choice to run a fork isn't a bad thing at all.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Peter2516 on August 15, 2014, 04:10:09 pm
I still have 45 pages left to read. So, it could be resolved by now.

But, wouldn't it be possible for the biggest forgers to inject a tx into the block chain that moves these coins to another account without needing the PK of the sending account. If all the forgers agree this is a legit transaction the coin will move.

right?

A 51% agreed transaction?
Sending funds without knowing private keys? Nothing could be worse than that. If you do this today, tomorrow they will confiscate your money because they just want to.

It about the same as what 1.2.5b is doing, however, at least this way no valid transaction will be lost.

Yes, valid transactions that timed out would have been lost, according to the fork release notes.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: tersagun on August 15, 2014, 04:10:17 pm
Quote
We have decided not to rollback but get the stolen funds back from the hacker since we have got lots of information of him.

How they can even say they decided? Are they representing Nxt?

Never gonna use BTER anymore

Well, rollback was being to help BTER. Maybe they believe they can bring the coins back or just survive the hack so they let people know that they do not want/ask for the rollback anymore.

A rollback would help them immensely, no matter what, and would bring them no harm at all. If they announce that they do not want any rollback, it's just their good and I should say kudos to them as they DO care for NXT and do not act selfish.

I don't get the negativity towards them.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Cryptplayer on August 15, 2014, 04:10:23 pm
they find he or we are rollback? soon too late for both  ??? ???

Exactly.

The thief will wait till the 720 confirms are past and then he will ask for more BTC


are we trusting bter... finding him in systems  ???
he will sit on his ass and hide in counry  >:(
why ppl think its so bad with rollback, just less ppls lost their money  :'(
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: cobaltskky on August 15, 2014, 04:10:38 pm
It would have been really interesting to see how it would have played out after 24 hours.  We never really had the time to run the fork.  Anyway, offering the choice to run a fork isn't a bad thing at all.

I like the choice myself.  That's true democracy.  We'll see how it plays out...

Also, if you disagree with no rollback, then bring up your own nodes on the new client and start forging.  You have the option now to do that.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Cassius on August 15, 2014, 04:11:16 pm
Decision has been made. Question is, what's next.
BTER is now effectively running a fractional banking system, if they survive. 1:10, since 5m of 50m was returned.
Perhaps they could pay the fees gained from NXT trading towards making up the loss, or into an asset created for this purpose, as Lee suggested. It would take a long time, but it's a start.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 04:12:00 pm
Quote
We have decided not to rollback but get the stolen funds back from the hacker since we have got lots of information of him.

How they can even say they decided? Are they representing Nxt?

Never gonna use BTER anymore

Well, rollback was being to help BTER. Maybe they believe they can bring the coins back or just survive the hack so they let people know that they do not want/ask for the rollback anymore.

A rollback would help them immensely, no matter what, and would bring them no harm at all. If they announce that they do not want any rollback, it's just their good and I should say kudos to them as they DO care for NXT and do not act selfish.

I don't get the negativity towards them.

If I am able to withdraw my 200K NXT within the following weeks from BTER, then I will take my words back and I'll donate to charity.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: HinnomTX on August 15, 2014, 04:13:29 pm
This incident has brought to light a dilemma, whether the block chain should ever be altered or not will probably always raise debate.

However as a business owner and looking at NXT from the perspective of a system to assist the community to build new exciting systems that allow individuals, smaller companies and even larger ones to grow without the aging and bloated banking systems that we currently rely on and more importantly give back, it seems natural that this system needs to be safe and secure. These types of hacks scare off adopters like no other and whats worse is that when the hacker gets away with it, it just promotes this type of behavior, as the attraction of stealing such a large amount of money is just too much for some.

So the ability for the community to protect its interests seems natural, not reversing this transaction seems unnatural. Such large incidents that harm so many people cannot just be allowed to go forward for the "Ideal" of block chain immutability. In fact in future there will no doubt be systems in place to prevent these types of lawless transactions, perhaps special types of wallets that operate on rules or votes, perhaps only exchanged would use these types of wallets with rules attached, where as regular users could opt not to and users would easily be able to see what rules the transaction is applicable to.

So the argument to say that NXT will collapse if it changes the blockchain I feel is not valid. NXT will collapse if it the community behind it does not behave intelligently and protect those who are invested in it the right way and I believe having so many good people loose so much due to one persons ill doings is not intelligent at all.
I almost threw up reading this. The theft justifies the price, dude. It legitimizes NXT's value. This and an unbroken public ledger history where all funds are fungible (i.e. no whitelisted and blacklisted coins) are what the community needs to protect. We are not in the business of bailing out exchanges. We are a currency, a transaction network, an asset exchange, and other things, but we don't serve up TBTF on a platter.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Pilot on August 15, 2014, 04:13:55 pm
Be careful upon the closure of the deal. At X juncture may make more sense for hacker to keep NXT than to receive BTC.

The final 10 BTC should be sent via escrow like http://cosign.co.in/


Lol look at the account

yea, I was time warping when I posted that.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: VanBreuk on August 15, 2014, 04:15:22 pm
This incident has brought to light a dilemma, whether the block chain should ever be altered or not will probably always raise debate.

However as a business owner and looking at NXT from the perspective of a system to assist the community to build new exciting systems that allow individuals, smaller companies and even larger ones to grow without the aging and bloated banking systems that we currently rely on and more importantly give back, it seems natural that this system needs to be safe and secure. These types of hacks scare off adopters like no other and whats worse is that when the hacker gets away with it, it just promotes this type of behavior, as the attraction of stealing such a large amount of money is just too much for some.

So the ability for the community to protect its interests seems natural, not reversing this transaction seems unnatural. Such large incidents that harm so many people cannot just be allowed to go forward for the "Ideal" of block chain immutability. In fact in future there will no doubt be systems in place to prevent these types of lawless transactions, perhaps special types of wallets that operate on rules or votes, perhaps only exchanged would use these types of wallets with rules attached, where as regular users could opt not to and users would easily be able to see what rules the transaction is applicable to.

So the argument to say that NXT will collapse if it changes the blockchain I feel is not valid. NXT will collapse if it the community behind it does not behave intelligently and protect those who are invested in it the right way and I believe having so many good people loose so much due to one persons ill doings is not intelligent at all.

I don't think this has to do with any ideal of blockchain immutability. Unless a hack happened due to a bug/exploit in Nxt code, the community cannot really bail out everyone who doesn't follow proper security procedures. Agreed this was an exceptional case, but account security is in the user side, mediated by Nxt tools. What we can do is deliver tools that make hacks progressively more difficult. Hence the convenience of multisig/account control.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: sepehr on August 15, 2014, 04:15:35 pm
This incident has brought to light a dilemma, whether the block chain should ever be altered or not will probably always raise debate.

However as a business owner and looking at NXT from the perspective of a system to assist the community to build new exciting systems that allow individuals, smaller companies and even larger ones to grow without the aging and bloated banking systems that we currently rely on and more importantly give back, it seems natural that this system needs to be safe and secure. These types of hacks scare off adopters like no other and whats worse is that when the hacker gets away with it, it just promotes this type of behavior, as the attraction of stealing such a large amount of money is just too much for some.

So the ability for the community to protect its interests seems natural, not reversing this transaction seems unnatural. Such large incidents that harm so many people cannot just be allowed to go forward for the "Ideal" of block chain immutability. In fact in future there will no doubt be systems in place to prevent these types of lawless transactions, perhaps special types of wallets that operate on rules or votes, perhaps only exchanged would use these types of wallets with rules attached, where as regular users could opt not to and users would easily be able to see what rules the transaction is applicable to.

So the argument to say that NXT will collapse if it changes the blockchain I feel is not valid. NXT will collapse if it the community behind it does not behave intelligently and protect those who are invested in it the right way and I believe having so many good people loose so much due to one persons ill doings is not intelligent at all.

You took the words out of my brain!

Agree with this! ++
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 04:15:39 pm
This incident has brought to light a dilemma, whether the block chain should ever be altered or not will probably always raise debate.

However as a business owner and looking at NXT from the perspective of a system to assist the community to build new exciting systems that allow individuals, smaller companies and even larger ones to grow without the aging and bloated banking systems that we currently rely on and more importantly give back, it seems natural that this system needs to be safe and secure. These types of hacks scare off adopters like no other and whats worse is that when the hacker gets away with it, it just promotes this type of behavior, as the attraction of stealing such a large amount of money is just too much for some.

So the ability for the community to protect its interests seems natural, not reversing this transaction seems unnatural. Such large incidents that harm so many people cannot just be allowed to go forward for the "Ideal" of block chain immutability. In fact in future there will no doubt be systems in place to prevent these types of lawless transactions, perhaps special types of wallets that operate on rules or votes, perhaps only exchanged would use these types of wallets with rules attached, where as regular users could opt not to and users would easily be able to see what rules the transaction is applicable to.

So the argument to say that NXT will collapse if it changes the blockchain I feel is not valid. NXT will collapse if it the community behind it does not behave intelligently and protect those who are invested in it the right way and I believe having so many good people loose so much due to one persons ill doings is not intelligent at all.
I almost threw up reading this. The theft justifies the price, dude. It legitimizes NXT's value. This and an unbroken public ledger history where all funds are fungible (i.e. no whitelisted and blacklisted coins) are what the community needs to protect. We are not in the business of bailing out exchanges. We are a currency, a transaction network, an asset exchange, and other things, but we don't serve up TBTF on a platter.

Let's see what other damage will be done with the remaining 45 M NXT, if he plans to use it.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: wert on August 15, 2014, 04:15:45 pm
Has someone successfully withdrawn something from Bter?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Pilot on August 15, 2014, 04:15:49 pm
I would be in favor of the following view of the experience.

Only to allow the exchange into mgw !!!  :-\

OH please mgw is basically a centralized server in disguise. There is no reason to think mgw operators are more careful than the BTER's owner. it is actually much less secure because mgw operators are amateurs.

From what I see of the exchanges, dgex, bter, agx.io, mintpal, all getting hacked they are amateurs too. The point of the mgw is that no ONE server has access to the funds due to multi-sig. Oh, something NXT doesn't even have or support sadly.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 04:17:05 pm
Has someone successfully withdrawn something from Bter?

The 5M NXT left over would vanish in 10 seconds if they enable withdrawals ;)

I wonder how many NXT they had in that other account...with which they are forging..
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Pilot on August 15, 2014, 04:17:37 pm
if there is a rollback, I'll just sell a bunch of NXT before it happens and send the money to my bank account. Then I get my coins back and keep the FIAT?

Nope.

Again, read here:

https://nxtforum.org/nrs-releases/nrs-v1-2-5b/ (https://nxtforum.org/nrs-releases/nrs-v1-2-5b/)

Only Bter account's outgoing transactions are erased.

Well, yes, if he puts a short deadline on his tx it won't be re-written during the re-org, right?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Jacinto on August 15, 2014, 04:18:08 pm
Has someone successfully withdrawn something from Bter?

The 5M NXT left over would vanish in 10 seconds if they enables withdrawals ;)

I will pay 5% fee for priority in the withdrawal process!  ;D
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 04:20:17 pm
Has someone successfully withdrawn something from Bter?

I've been able to withdraw my Bitcoin that was stuck in "Processing" for a few hours. So at least Bitcoin is back working.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: msin on August 15, 2014, 04:20:32 pm
Quote
We have decided not to rollback but get the stolen funds back from the hacker since we have got lots of information of him.

How they can even say they decided? Are they representing Nxt?
'

They are saying that they decided not to run the rollback client.  We need to stop over analyzing everything, we are being over dramatic. bitcoinpaul's dream will come true and a Nxt movie will be released.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: bgcaffe on August 15, 2014, 04:20:47 pm
This incident has brought to light a dilemma, whether the block chain should ever be altered or not will probably always raise debate.

However as a business owner and looking at NXT from the perspective of a system to assist the community to build new exciting systems that allow individuals, smaller companies and even larger ones to grow without the aging and bloated banking systems that we currently rely on and more importantly give back, it seems natural that this system needs to be safe and secure. These types of hacks scare off adopters like no other and whats worse is that when the hacker gets away with it, it just promotes this type of behavior, as the attraction of stealing such a large amount of money is just too much for some.

So the ability for the community to protect its interests seems natural, not reversing this transaction seems unnatural. Such large incidents that harm so many people cannot just be allowed to go forward for the "Ideal" of block chain immutability. In fact in future there will no doubt be systems in place to prevent these types of lawless transactions, perhaps special types of wallets that operate on rules or votes, perhaps only exchanged would use these types of wallets with rules attached, where as regular users could opt not to and users would easily be able to see what rules the transaction is applicable to.

So the argument to say that NXT will collapse if it changes the blockchain I feel is not valid. NXT will collapse if it the community behind it does not behave intelligently and protect those who are invested in it the right way and I believe having so many good people loose so much due to one persons ill doings is not intelligent at all.
I almost threw up reading this. The theft justifies the price, dude. It legitimizes NXT's value. This and an unbroken public ledger history where all funds are fungible (i.e. no whitelisted and blacklisted coins) are what the community needs to protect. We are not in the business of bailing out exchanges. We are a currency, a transaction network, an asset exchange, and other things, but we don't serve up TBTF on a platter.

We are a currency, a transaction network, an asset exchange, and other things
If we are these things, then these things that you mention all protect the investors!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on August 15, 2014, 04:21:34 pm
What happens to everyone running the old version - will they need to update once this is decided one way or another?

They would eventually see a big reorg.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Pilot on August 15, 2014, 04:22:09 pm
BTW: My Via withdrawal from BTER was paid.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: bitcoinpaul on August 15, 2014, 04:23:01 pm
Quote
We have decided not to rollback but get the stolen funds back from the hacker since we have got lots of information of him.

How they can even say they decided? Are they representing Nxt?
'

They are saying that they decided not to run the rollback client.  We need to stop over analyzing everything, we are being over dramatic. bitcoinpaul's dream will come true and a Nxt movie will be released.

Can somebody call Aaron Sorkin?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: megashira1 on August 15, 2014, 04:24:44 pm
This incident has brought to light a dilemma, whether the block chain should ever be altered or not will probably always raise debate.

However as a business owner and looking at NXT from the perspective of a system to assist the community to build new exciting systems that allow individuals, smaller companies and even larger ones to grow without the aging and bloated banking systems that we currently rely on and more importantly give back, it seems natural that this system needs to be safe and secure. These types of hacks scare off adopters like no other and whats worse is that when the hacker gets away with it, it just promotes this type of behavior, as the attraction of stealing such a large amount of money is just too much for some.

So the ability for the community to protect its interests seems natural, not reversing this transaction seems unnatural. Such large incidents that harm so many people cannot just be allowed to go forward for the "Ideal" of block chain immutability. In fact in future there will no doubt be systems in place to prevent these types of lawless transactions, perhaps special types of wallets that operate on rules or votes, perhaps only exchanged would use these types of wallets with rules attached, where as regular users could opt not to and users would easily be able to see what rules the transaction is applicable to.

So the argument to say that NXT will collapse if it changes the blockchain I feel is not valid. NXT will collapse if it the community behind it does not behave intelligently and protect those who are invested in it the right way and I believe having so many good people loose so much due to one persons ill doings is not intelligent at all.


this
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: coolfish on August 15, 2014, 04:25:17 pm
ok!!!

If 900 million NXT is theft, we continue not to roll back? Let the nxt dead?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: bitcoinpaul on August 15, 2014, 04:26:31 pm
With full TF, this discussion wouldn't matter. Gogogo, CfB.

My, that's not entirely true. Ignore.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Nikki_D on August 15, 2014, 04:26:54 pm
Has someone successfully withdrawn something from Bter?

Nope Nothing!  Not even Darkcoin
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Sebastien256 on August 15, 2014, 04:28:00 pm
im wondering what is going behind the scene. Go Bter, I hope you find the thief.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: himmelsfaller2 on August 15, 2014, 04:28:18 pm
Confirmation that this is really BTER and that they didn't use the same password for twitter would be nice.

Also: Really hope they don't call it too early like Klee did with his scammer - when he thought he had him.
Won't get my hopes up for the best outcome (guy in jail, money back). Sadly, it would be a first. Not even scammers known by name and address had to return funds - let alone got punished.
Anyways: Go bter! Get the bastard.

Well, I started running 1.2.5b and then changed my mind and started running 1.2.5 again.  If that's not decentralized thinking, I don't know what is.

ROTFL


Double ROTFL did the same. Thought community wants to fork.

ALWAYS LOOK ON THE BRIGHT SIDE OF LIFE

Nice social experiment with big value included
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: nextcafe on August 15, 2014, 04:29:49 pm
Any good news today?

Any reason why the hacker went after NXT instead of the other coins?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: vladimirceman91 on August 15, 2014, 04:29:55 pm
Anyway, this is a huge lesson not to use centralised exchange.

Multigateway was right here under your noses, why didn't you use it?

I know it's not fully decentralised, but for now it's the best choice we have.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: crimi on August 15, 2014, 04:30:24 pm
ok!!!

If 900 million NXT is theft, we continue not to roll back? Let the nxt dead?

At this case something must be really wrong with you and nxt, if 90 % of the coins could be stolen. You better dont be the 10 % holding.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: rckrck123 on August 15, 2014, 04:30:37 pm
so all the NXT holders who had their balances in BTER should forget their NXT holding because  the nxt community as a whole decided not to rollback or alter the blockchain to make the theft void.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Cassius on August 15, 2014, 04:31:59 pm
ok!!!

If 900 million NXT is theft, we continue not to roll back? Let the nxt dead?

At this case something must be really wrong with you and nxt, if 90 % of the coins could be stolen. You better dont be the 10 % holding.

If the thief is holding 90%, exactly who is going to be doing the rolling back, which takes 51-90%?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Jack Needles on August 15, 2014, 04:32:04 pm
I applaud everyone involved in this decision.  Though I am sad to see experiment not fully realized.  This occurrence has highlighted the beauty and pitfalls of Proof of Stake.  If majority of forgers decide on an action, it will be so.

In keeping with the spirit of decentralized decision making, I ask for the source code to be released for 1.2.5c.  This will help community relieve the core developers from what had to be a difficult choice -- releasing 'official' code to deny some transactions.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Sebastien256 on August 15, 2014, 04:32:24 pm
so all the NXT holders who had their balances in BTER should forget their NXT holding because  the nxt community as a whole decided not to rollback or alter the blockchain to make the theft void.

I think nxt community has deciced not to roll back as well as bter:
https://twitter.com/btercom
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: empowering on August 15, 2014, 04:32:32 pm
So I guess these means that the hacker will get away with it, unless BTER DO actually track him down...  I hope so.. if not community should put a bounty on his head and hand him over to the law regardless... 100% - I lost nothing in this, but still.. heads should roll.

Also if he is not stopped and funds returned, does this now mean we have to deal with a scumbag holding 5% of coins and posing a risk to MGW etc?

Really - need to send a message to the hackers..

I am glad no reorg and no rollback- the only reason that made sense was to make sure hacker escaped with zero..

Community needs a way to deal with future events though..
 

Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: abctc on August 15, 2014, 04:32:36 pm
Jean-Luc should not have produced custom software to edit the blockchain.
- who a you to teach Jean-Luc.  What you made for Nxt.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Mexxer on August 15, 2014, 04:33:13 pm
I request setting up a community bounty to catch the hacker!

I pledge half of my stolen Nxt if it can be retrieved, which would be 40k Nxt!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on August 15, 2014, 04:33:53 pm
Well, the rollback is cancelled.

Who "decided" this? Bter? you? all of us but we didn't notice yet?

 ;)

BTER said that they don't need the rollback. I think Nxt makes a lot of profit for them so the best way is to get hacked money and save value of 1 NXT (though it's still possible that the value would become even higher in case of the rollback).
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: rckrck123 on August 15, 2014, 04:34:31 pm
community has let down their biggest exchange. no hope for NXT survival
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 04:34:45 pm
Any good news today?

Any reason why the hacker went after NXT instead of the other coins?

NXT is(or was) BTER's top trading pair up until it was halted due to the hack.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Sebastien256 on August 15, 2014, 04:34:51 pm
do we realize the size of the bounty that will be on his thief head might worth in the future. The thief will never sleep well for the rest of his life...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: PoofKnuckle on August 15, 2014, 04:35:18 pm
I request setting up a community bounty to catch the hacker!

I pledge half of my stolen Nxt if it can be retrieved, which would be 40k Nxt!

Pics or it didn't happen. I'd pay to see the punk who did this getting a ... um ... stern talking-to. Yeah, stern. I would never condone beating the punk to a pulp. Nope. Nor posting it on YouTube. Nope.

Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Darkhorse on August 15, 2014, 04:35:29 pm
What IF another exchange gets hacked? Will there be same reaction? Or making sure no rollbacks will done in the future so exchanges will be careful with their accounts?

Just wanna know your stand.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on August 15, 2014, 04:35:35 pm
Nice experiment. Hey, why not play another game, maybe a new release with another quirk?

I support this. Any ideas? The only idea that comes to my mind is to split top 10 accounts among the others  ;D
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: empowering on August 15, 2014, 04:35:56 pm
community has let down their biggest exchange. no hope for NXT survival

? what
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: megashira1 on August 15, 2014, 04:36:48 pm
No crypto thieves ever get caught or prosecuted. I don't know what BTER is thinking.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: TimmyD on August 15, 2014, 04:38:22 pm
BTW: My Via withdrawal from BTER was paid.
i also got my via withdrawl, BUT i withdrew 1011 and received 990 Wtf
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: PoofKnuckle on August 15, 2014, 04:39:02 pm
community Bter has let down their biggest currency. no hope for NXT survival Let's hope they learn a lesson.

FIFY
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: HinnomTX on August 15, 2014, 04:40:22 pm
This incident has brought to light a dilemma, whether the block chain should ever be altered or not will probably always raise debate.

However as a business owner and looking at NXT from the perspective of a system to assist the community to build new exciting systems that allow individuals, smaller companies and even larger ones to grow without the aging and bloated banking systems that we currently rely on and more importantly give back, it seems natural that this system needs to be safe and secure. These types of hacks scare off adopters like no other and whats worse is that when the hacker gets away with it, it just promotes this type of behavior, as the attraction of stealing such a large amount of money is just too much for some.

So the ability for the community to protect its interests seems natural, not reversing this transaction seems unnatural. Such large incidents that harm so many people cannot just be allowed to go forward for the "Ideal" of block chain immutability. In fact in future there will no doubt be systems in place to prevent these types of lawless transactions, perhaps special types of wallets that operate on rules or votes, perhaps only exchanged would use these types of wallets with rules attached, where as regular users could opt not to and users would easily be able to see what rules the transaction is applicable to.

So the argument to say that NXT will collapse if it changes the blockchain I feel is not valid. NXT will collapse if it the community behind it does not behave intelligently and protect those who are invested in it the right way and I believe having so many good people loose so much due to one persons ill doings is not intelligent at all.
I almost threw up reading this. The theft justifies the price, dude. It legitimizes NXT's value. This and an unbroken public ledger history where all funds are fungible (i.e. no whitelisted and blacklisted coins) are what the community needs to protect. We are not in the business of bailing out exchanges. We are a currency, a transaction network, an asset exchange, and other things, but we don't serve up TBTF on a platter.

We are a currency, a transaction network, an asset exchange, and other things
If we are these things, then these things that you mention all protect the investors!
If you want nanny protection you need to hide your money in FDIC insured banks, US Treasuries, and SEC approved securities. Good luck with that.
Your original argument presumes that the act of stealing 50M in funds is final and irreversible. There are now social, not software, efforts underway by the appropriate parties to make sure the 50M NXT are returned. The social route is the correct one, and the software route should not have been even a temptation offered up by the devs.
We all must play by the same rules. BTER's NXT coins should not be more protected than mine or yours or Graviton Capital's.

Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Sebastien256 on August 15, 2014, 04:40:33 pm
BTW: My Via withdrawal from BTER was paid.
i also got my via withdrawl, BUT i withdrew 1011 and received 990 Wtf

All I can say is that i would send a ticket to bter... but it might not be high in their priority at the moment.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: devphp on August 15, 2014, 04:40:58 pm
Nice experiment. Hey, why not play another game, maybe a new release with another quirk?

I support this. Any ideas? The only idea that comes to my mind is to split top 10 accounts among the others  ;D

How about no? It's Friday and beer time and this incident is getting too tiring now.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on August 15, 2014, 04:41:36 pm
The NXT developers should NEVER have enabled a rollback in the first place. Jean-Luc should not have produced custom software to edit the blockchain.
The custom software ostensibly allowed the community to 'make a choice', but in reality no choice should have been allowed. The coin itself was functioning exactly as it should, and did not have any technical problems.  We are not in the business of bailing out exchanges, and even if we were, we would quickly set up the moral hazard of allowing lazy, insecure exchanges to exist. The parallels to the existing corrupt banking system should be obvious for all to see.

This would work only if Nxt wasn't open-source. And btw, have u just proposed to violate my right for a choice?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: gs02xzz on August 15, 2014, 04:41:45 pm
community has let down their biggest exchange. no hope for NXT survival

You missed something - https://twitter.com/btercom/status/500301278027608064
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: TimmyD on August 15, 2014, 04:42:55 pm
BTW: My Via withdrawal from BTER was paid.
i also got my via withdrawl, BUT i withdrew 1011 and received 990 Wtf

All I can say is that i would send a ticket to bter... but it might not be high in their priority at the moment.
LoL my 20 via is way more important  :D ill let it slide they can considor it a donation
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Sebastien256 on August 15, 2014, 04:43:21 pm
is anyone know how to read those binary message?:
https://nxtblocks.info/#section/blockexplorer_messages
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on August 15, 2014, 04:44:03 pm
Is more than 50% of FORGERS required to participate in rollback or more than 50% of FORGING POWER ?

The latter.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: bgcaffe on August 15, 2014, 04:46:34 pm
This incident has brought to light a dilemma, whether the block chain should ever be altered or not will probably always raise debate.

However as a business owner and looking at NXT from the perspective of a system to assist the community to build new exciting systems that allow individuals, smaller companies and even larger ones to grow without the aging and bloated banking systems that we currently rely on and more importantly give back, it seems natural that this system needs to be safe and secure. These types of hacks scare off adopters like no other and whats worse is that when the hacker gets away with it, it just promotes this type of behavior, as the attraction of stealing such a large amount of money is just too much for some.

So the ability for the community to protect its interests seems natural, not reversing this transaction seems unnatural. Such large incidents that harm so many people cannot just be allowed to go forward for the "Ideal" of block chain immutability. In fact in future there will no doubt be systems in place to prevent these types of lawless transactions, perhaps special types of wallets that operate on rules or votes, perhaps only exchanged would use these types of wallets with rules attached, where as regular users could opt not to and users would easily be able to see what rules the transaction is applicable to.

So the argument to say that NXT will collapse if it changes the blockchain I feel is not valid. NXT will collapse if it the community behind it does not behave intelligently and protect those who are invested in it the right way and I believe having so many good people loose so much due to one persons ill doings is not intelligent at all.
I almost threw up reading this. The theft justifies the price, dude. It legitimizes NXT's value. This and an unbroken public ledger history where all funds are fungible (i.e. no whitelisted and blacklisted coins) are what the community needs to protect. We are not in the business of bailing out exchanges. We are a currency, a transaction network, an asset exchange, and other things, but we don't serve up TBTF on a platter.

We are a currency, a transaction network, an asset exchange, and other things
If we are these things, then these things that you mention all protect the investors!
If you want nanny protection you need to hide your money in FDIC insured banks, US Treasuries, and SEC approved securities. Good luck with that.
Your original argument presumes that the act of stealing 50M in funds is final and irreversible. There are now social, not software, efforts underway by the appropriate parties to make sure the 50M NXT are returned. The social route is the correct one, and the software route should not have been even a temptation offered up by the devs.
We all must play by the same rules. BTER's NXT coins should not be more protected than mine or yours or Graviton Capital's.

The fact that there are so many plans to protect wallets like multi-sig, shows that there is a problem at the moment securing effectively. Also given the extremely new nature of Crypt-currency it makes sense to make decisions now that in future will not be required. I agree in saying that we all need to play by the rules. However if you were holding 50M NXT that just got hacked that you were holding on the behalf of so many users, I think you will be singing a different tune.

In the end the decision that returns balance back to the community would be right in my eyes. Being decentralized does not mean being desensitized..
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Pilot on August 15, 2014, 04:46:44 pm
Has someone successfully withdrawn something from Bter?

Yes. Withdrew Via... took about 5mins.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: tersagun on August 15, 2014, 04:47:42 pm
How much would selling 50M affect the NXT price you think on short/mid-term?

Also add into the fact it's stolen 50M; more FUD and negativity created.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Pilot on August 15, 2014, 04:48:26 pm
Has someone successfully withdrawn something from Bter?

I've been able to withdraw my Bitcoin that was stuck in "Processing" for a few hours. So at least Bitcoin is back working.

I expect NXT withdrawls are frozen, since they don't have the NXT to pay out with.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: crimi on August 15, 2014, 04:48:50 pm
community has let down their biggest exchange. no hope for NXT survival

Bitcoin community has let down their biggest exchange. No hope for Bitcoin survival aka Mt.Gox

Nice experiment. Hey, why not play another game, maybe a new release with another quirk?

I support this. Any ideas? The only idea that comes to my mind is to split top 10 accounts among the others  ;D

Do a blockchain recast(new genesis) every 24 hours. This way we have decent anonymity and the size of chain will fit forever on a diskett.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: marcus03 on August 15, 2014, 04:49:01 pm
After like 6 hours, I've just receiced my Viacoin withdrawal from bter.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on August 15, 2014, 04:49:56 pm
Yes, valid transactions that timed out would have been lost, according to the fork release notes.

At the moment when 1.2.5b was released none of the legit transactions would be lost. And all of them would be included into the first 2 blocks.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Pilot on August 15, 2014, 04:50:21 pm
Anyway, this is a huge lesson not to use centralised exchange.

Multigateway was right here under your noses, why didn't you use it?

I know it's not fully decentralised, but for now it's the best choice we have.

The mgw is awesome. But, it doesn't have the audience and liquidity the BTER has, well had. That's why.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: buybitcoinscanada on August 15, 2014, 04:50:45 pm
A
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: mczarnek on August 15, 2014, 04:50:59 pm
We need multisig/phasing, as well as wallet.dat.  Multi-sig is more important for big exchanges.  Wallet.dat is more for personal security but would also help because an exchange like BTER could encrypt the wallet with one password, that holds onto another password.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: gs02xzz on August 15, 2014, 04:51:29 pm
How much would selling 50M affect the NXT price you think on short/mid-term?
Also add into the fact it's stolen 50M; more FUD and negativity created.

I doubt that the hacker will be able to send it to any exchange because the exchanges are very likely to freeze it immediately.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: tonyk on August 15, 2014, 04:52:09 pm
Was the hacker paid or  he just bought those 100 multigateway BTC ?

Transaction: 3943495016275895492
 Asset: 4551058913252105307
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 04:53:15 pm
Has bter paid the ransom? Did they use escrow or pay in portions? Did the thief return any of the funds yet? How long do we have until rollback is impossible? The answer to this question depends on time sensitive matters. What is bter doing right now to recover the funds before we rollover 720 blocks? We have to seriously consider the possibility that the thief is stallin, waiting for 720 blocks so we can't act. If bter can recover most or all of the nxt, they need to do whatever possible. This is their fuckup. Once they recover the funds everyone pull every last nxt off the exchange and use MGW. I got a pm from Gloss (runs coinmarketcap) saying he will pull data from MGW for the site. However, if bter can't fix this and were down to the last hour... Forgers HAVE to move to a fork. Nxt will take flack for this. Were going to see hard times in the short term because of it. But if all forgers have consensus, it is NOT a centralized decision.

 Think into the future. Nxt has gone mainstream. Nxt market cap is in the 10s of billions or higher. There are thousands of major forgers. There is a theft of millions of nxt from a business account. Every forger has a responsibility to vote on the proper actions to take and weigh the consequences of each decision... Would a blockchain reorg be a centralized decision in this scenario? Its the same thing, Its proportional. We don't have the benefit of a massive user base to put a prettier name to it. That's all.

 One thing I can say; the foundation of Nxt rests in this community. Don't worry about the rest of cryptoland or what they think. It doesn't matter. At worst, short term speculators will dump their nxt. We don't need them. Our REAL future and growth waits for us outside in the rest of the world. As long as we come to a proper consensus on this decision, then we are good. We are solid. We as a community made this decision. Not some Nxt "boss". If we let this thief abscond with the funds no business will ever touch nxt, for 2 reasons. 1. They see we can't make the difficult decisions to protect the ecosystem and businesses and 2. There will be a 50 megaton nxt bomb looming over their heads. Do what needs to be done. Make the difficult decision.

 This is bters doom, not ours. When we rectify this situation act appropriately and remove all your funds from bter. That is the true centralization and we should know better. Take the power for this to happen again away. Those actions will speak for us. This is the strongest community is the crypto world, building the most innovative platform. If everyone just keeps pushing forward not even this can stop us.

they went with the hackers agreement of 10btc(total of 100btc) for some NXT and back and forth after that. BTER sent the btc, hacker sent 5m NXT that was the "plan". After the first back and forth between the two, the Hacker acted all disgruntled that it was taking forever and left the agreement. BTER got worried and sent the remaining of the 100btc that was decided on. Hacker didn't send back anything.

look at page 3-4ish on the messaging to see the conversation between the two.
https://nxtblocks.info/#section/blockexplorer_messages
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Pilot on August 15, 2014, 04:53:17 pm
BTW: My Via withdrawal from BTER was paid.
i also got my via withdrawl, BUT i withdrew 1011 and received 990 Wtf

2% fee, it was right on the withdrawal page.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: marcus03 on August 15, 2014, 04:53:23 pm
We need multisig/phasing, as well as wallet.dat.  Multi-sig is more important for big exchanges.  Wallet.dat is more for personal security but would also help because an exchange like BTER could encrypt the wallet with one password, that holds onto another password.

If it's a true that the bter used the same password for everything, then there is no technical solution to it. Same goes for Klee's loss.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 04:54:33 pm
No crypto thieves ever get caught or prosecuted. I don't know what BTER is thinking.

EXACTLY WHAT IM THINKING

rollback is the only option to ever get the CUSTOMERS funds back
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 04:55:20 pm
BTW: My Via withdrawal from BTER was paid.
i also got my via withdrawl, BUT i withdrew 1011 and received 990 Wtf

2% fee, it was right on the withdrawal page.

lol, even I am not that stupid to not notice that :P
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: marcus03 on August 15, 2014, 04:55:34 pm
And please stop hyping MGW as the solution. As much as I like it, it is not ready.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 04:56:10 pm
We need multisig/phasing, as well as wallet.dat.  Multi-sig is more important for big exchanges.  Wallet.dat is more for personal security but would also help because an exchange like BTER could encrypt the wallet with one password, that holds onto another password.

If it's a true that the bter used the same password for everything, then there is no technical solution to it. Same goes for Klee's loss.

lol, multi-sig and use the same sigs, that would be full retard :D
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Jack Needles on August 15, 2014, 04:59:58 pm
I applaud everyone involved in this decision.  Though I am sad to see experiment not fully realized.  This occurrence has highlighted the beauty and pitfalls of Proof of Stake.  If majority of forgers decide on an action, it will be so.

In keeping with the spirit of decentralized decision making, I ask for the source code to be released for 1.2.5c.  This will help community relieve the core developers from what had to be a difficult choice -- releasing 'official' code to deny some transactions.

I see source for 1.2.5b is available.  Changes do not look too difficult to modify should the need arise.  But, 1.2.5b had some problems that was going to be fixed in a 'c' version?  Be nice to see. ;)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: dooglus on August 15, 2014, 05:00:38 pm
However, if bter can't fix this and were down to the last hour... Forgers HAVE to move to a fork. Nxt will take flack for this. Were going to see hard times in the short term because of it. But if all forgers have consensus, it is NOT a centralized decision.

It sounds to me like an exchange with poor security got hacked and lost their coins.

Reversing everybody's transactions to "bail out" an insecure exchange isn't the right thing to do here.

If we let this thief abscond with the funds no business will ever touch nxt, for 2 reasons. 1. They see we can't make the difficult decisions to protect the ecosystem and businesses and 2. There will be a 50 megaton nxt bomb looming over their heads. Do what needs to be done. Make the difficult decision.

If they see that the nxt community reverses transactions they don't approve of, no business will ever touch nxt.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: VanBreuk on August 15, 2014, 05:01:09 pm
For the debate.

VeriCoin Developer: “The NXT Chain Should Not Be Rolled Back” - Cryptocoins News (http://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/news/vericoin-developer-believe-nxt-chain-rolled-back/2014/08/15)

Quote
“I would like to point out that NXT had 50 million out of one billion coins stolen, or 5% total. VeriCoin had 8M of 26.7M or around 30% total. Both are Proof-of-Stake, but only the VeriCoin hacker could have attacked the blockchain with a 51% attack.”

“Because of this, I believe that the NXT chain should not be rolled back. We rolled back not to save the owners who held coin on Mintpal, but to preserve the integrity of the chain by preventing an illicit holder from attacking it.”
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: HinnomTX on August 15, 2014, 05:02:33 pm
The NXT developers should NEVER have enabled a rollback in the first place. Jean-Luc should not have produced custom software to edit the blockchain.
The custom software ostensibly allowed the community to 'make a choice', but in reality no choice should have been allowed. The coin itself was functioning exactly as it should, and did not have any technical problems.  We are not in the business of bailing out exchanges, and even if we were, we would quickly set up the moral hazard of allowing lazy, insecure exchanges to exist. The parallels to the existing corrupt banking system should be obvious for all to see.

This would work only if Nxt wasn't open-source. And btw, have u just proposed to violate my right for a choice?
You didn't need to be tempted with choice. There was nothing wrong with the coin in the first place. BTER's coins should not have been perceived as more valuable or protected than yours or mine. How do you think Graviton feels about his DGEX theft now? "Damn, should have been a much bigger theft, then I could have gotten my stolen coins back." At what point do you trigger your implicit TBTF clause?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: verdun2003 on August 15, 2014, 05:03:55 pm
How do we know that the bter twitter account and the freeworms nxtforum account have not been hacked?

That could explain why they are against the roll back + that they have "loads" of info regarding the hacker...

I've read that the community is against the fork, though the voting is still at 55% for the fork. Can someone please explain?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Buratino on August 15, 2014, 05:05:57 pm
Can initial whales lend BTER 50M Nxt for recover customer's losses? It could be a good move.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 05:06:43 pm
How do we know that the bter twitter account and the freeworms nxtforum account have not been hacked?

That could explain why they are against the roll back + that they have "loads" of info regarding the hacker...

I've read that the community is against the fork, though the voting is still at 55% for the fork. Can someone please explain?

Don't forget the VOTING!

Twitter could be compromised indeed!

Nxtforum accounts have been hacked before!

someone doesn't want us to rollback!
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Cassius on August 15, 2014, 05:07:01 pm
How do we know that the bter twitter account and the freeworms nxtforum account have not been hacked?

That could explain why they are against the roll back + that they have "loads" of info regarding the hacker...

I've read that the community is against the fork, though the voting is still at 55% for the fork. Can someone please explain?

A lot of people changed their minds when they understood the implications.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: trivialcode on August 15, 2014, 05:07:56 pm
If you want nanny protection you need to hide your money in FDIC insured banks, US Treasuries, and SEC approved securities. Good luck with that.
Your original argument presumes that the act of stealing 50M in funds is final and irreversible. There are now social, not software, efforts underway by the appropriate parties to make sure the 50M NXT are returned. The social route is the correct one, and the software route should not have been even a temptation offered up by the devs.
We all must play by the same rules. BTER's NXT coins should not be more protected than mine or yours or Graviton Capital's.
All politicians screws our world in the name of general good. I was hoping crypto and NXT specifically will not be tweaked this way. If yes, I can cash my crypto and put it back to a bank because there will be no difference.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: nextcafe on August 15, 2014, 05:08:32 pm
Has bter paid the ransom? Did they use escrow or pay in portions? Did the thief return any of the funds yet? How long do we have until rollback is impossible? The answer to this question depends on time sensitive matters. What is bter doing right now to recover the funds before we rollover 720 blocks? We have to seriously consider the possibility that the thief is stallin, waiting for 720 blocks so we can't act. If bter can recover most or all of the nxt, they need to do whatever possible. This is their fuckup. Once they recover the funds everyone pull every last nxt off the exchange and use MGW. I got a pm from Gloss (runs coinmarketcap) saying he will pull data from MGW for the site. However, if bter can't fix this and were down to the last hour... Forgers HAVE to move to a fork. Nxt will take flack for this. Were going to see hard times in the short term because of it. But if all forgers have consensus, it is NOT a centralized decision.

 Think into the future. Nxt has gone mainstream. Nxt market cap is in the 10s of billions or higher. There are thousands of major forgers. There is a theft of millions of nxt from a business account. Every forger has a responsibility to vote on the proper actions to take and weigh the consequences of each decision... Would a blockchain reorg be a centralized decision in this scenario? Its the same thing, Its proportional. We don't have the benefit of a massive user base to put a prettier name to it. That's all.

 One thing I can say; the foundation of Nxt rests in this community. Don't worry about the rest of cryptoland or what they think. It doesn't matter. At worst, short term speculators will dump their nxt. We don't need them. Our REAL future and growth waits for us outside in the rest of the world. As long as we come to a proper consensus on this decision, then we are good. We are solid. We as a community made this decision. Not some Nxt "boss". If we let this thief abscond with the funds no business will ever touch nxt, for 2 reasons. 1. They see we can't make the difficult decisions to protect the ecosystem and businesses and 2. There will be a 50 megaton nxt bomb looming over their heads. Do what needs to be done. Make the difficult decision.

 This is bters doom, not ours. When we rectify this situation act appropriately and remove all your funds from bter. That is the true centralization and we should know better. Take the power for this to happen again away. Those actions will speak for us. This is the strongest community is the crypto world, building the most innovative platform. If everyone just keeps pushing forward not even this can stop us.

they went with the hackers agreement of 10btc(total of 100btc) for some NXT and back and forth after that. BTER sent the btc, hacker sent 5m NXT that was the "plan". After the first back and forth between the two, the Hacker acted all disgruntled that it was taking forever and left the agreement. BTER got worried and sent the remaining of the 100btc that was decided on. Hacker didn't send back anything.

look at page 3-4ish on the messaging to see the conversation between the two.
https://nxtblocks.info/#section/blockexplorer_messages

So, this is still an ongoing situation?

As a someone who started only a week ago nearly all of my NXT was on bter.

Is there a particular reason the hacker went after Nxt?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: buybitcoinscanada on August 15, 2014, 05:08:48 pm
A
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: VanBreuk on August 15, 2014, 05:09:11 pm
How do we know that the bter twitter account and the freeworms nxtforum account have not been hacked?

Since the freeworm forum account has been using consistently the same IP for over a month including the last posts, it is pretty safe to assume it has not been hacked.

And since both freeworm and the BTER twitter account agree in their last posts, it's also pretty safe to assume BTER twitter hasn't been hacked either.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 05:09:30 pm
How do we know that the bter twitter account and the freeworms nxtforum account have not been hacked?

That could explain why they are against the roll back + that they have "loads" of info regarding the hacker...

I've read that the community is against the fork, though the voting is still at 55% for the fork. Can someone please explain?

at least in regard to freeworm the guy stated withdrawals would start soon, and the withdrawals for some crypto (like Bitcoin) did indeed start on bter's site. So unless the guy had control over that too...
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: gs02xzz on August 15, 2014, 05:10:01 pm
For the debate.
VeriCoin Developer: “The NXT Chain Should Not Be Rolled Back” - Cryptocoins News (http://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/news/vericoin-developer-believe-nxt-chain-rolled-back/2014/08/15)

The difference between Vericoin and Nxt is that in Vericoin their dev made the decision and in Nxt the forgers would make the decision.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 05:11:07 pm
Has bter paid the ransom? Did they use escrow or pay in portions? Did the thief return any of the funds yet? How long do we have until rollback is impossible? The answer to this question depends on time sensitive matters. What is bter doing right now to recover the funds before we rollover 720 blocks? We have to seriously consider the possibility that the thief is stallin, waiting for 720 blocks so we can't act. If bter can recover most or all of the nxt, they need to do whatever possible. This is their fuckup. Once they recover the funds everyone pull every last nxt off the exchange and use MGW. I got a pm from Gloss (runs coinmarketcap) saying he will pull data from MGW for the site. However, if bter can't fix this and were down to the last hour... Forgers HAVE to move to a fork. Nxt will take flack for this. Were going to see hard times in the short term because of it. But if all forgers have consensus, it is NOT a centralized decision.

 Think into the future. Nxt has gone mainstream. Nxt market cap is in the 10s of billions or higher. There are thousands of major forgers. There is a theft of millions of nxt from a business account. Every forger has a responsibility to vote on the proper actions to take and weigh the consequences of each decision... Would a blockchain reorg be a centralized decision in this scenario? Its the same thing, Its proportional. We don't have the benefit of a massive user base to put a prettier name to it. That's all.

 One thing I can say; the foundation of Nxt rests in this community. Don't worry about the rest of cryptoland or what they think. It doesn't matter. At worst, short term speculators will dump their nxt. We don't need them. Our REAL future and growth waits for us outside in the rest of the world. As long as we come to a proper consensus on this decision, then we are good. We are solid. We as a community made this decision. Not some Nxt "boss". If we let this thief abscond with the funds no business will ever touch nxt, for 2 reasons. 1. They see we can't make the difficult decisions to protect the ecosystem and businesses and 2. There will be a 50 megaton nxt bomb looming over their heads. Do what needs to be done. Make the difficult decision.

 This is bters doom, not ours. When we rectify this situation act appropriately and remove all your funds from bter. That is the true centralization and we should know better. Take the power for this to happen again away. Those actions will speak for us. This is the strongest community is the crypto world, building the most innovative platform. If everyone just keeps pushing forward not even this can stop us.

they went with the hackers agreement of 10btc(total of 100btc) for some NXT and back and forth after that. BTER sent the btc, hacker sent 5m NXT that was the "plan". After the first back and forth between the two, the Hacker acted all disgruntled that it was taking forever and left the agreement. BTER got worried and sent the remaining of the 100btc that was decided on. Hacker didn't send back anything.

look at page 3-4ish on the messaging to see the conversation between the two.
https://nxtblocks.info/#section/blockexplorer_messages

So, this is still an ongoing situation?

As a someone who started only a week ago nearly all of my NXT was on bter.

Is there a particular reason the hacker went after Nxt?

As the hacker stated "Deal is off. Good night." so likely not

NXT is/was BTER's top traded crypto prior to the hack and the guy I believe stole Bitcoin too unless he stated it wrong.

"So, what taking so long? Send me the next batch already. I'm going to leave soon. It's already 2 hours of negotiation, it took me 1 hour to clean your whole exchanger. BTC 500+ I'm not going to sit here, and wait 2 more hours for you to decide to send the lousy 10 BTC." .
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: 2Kool4Skewl on August 15, 2014, 05:11:12 pm
What is the hashpower on chain 1.2.5 and 1.2.5b?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on August 15, 2014, 05:13:00 pm
Reversing everybody's transactions to "bail out" an insecure exchange isn't the right thing to do here.

It's not our case, it was already checked that all transactions except BTER ones would be confirmed on the new branch.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Ezravdb on August 15, 2014, 05:13:37 pm
Reversing everybody's transactions to "bail out" an insecure exchange isn't the right thing to do here.

It's not our case, it was already checked that all transactions except BTER ones would be confirmed on the new branch.

:)
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: eimon on August 15, 2014, 05:14:08 pm
I say no bailout for Bter. They're not too big to fail. They've been robbing us all along with their 0.5% withdrawal fee, so maybe their collapse will be a good thing for NXT long term.

Also, one thing I'm not clear on. Did they actually send 100 BTC to the hacker that robbed them?
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Wakasaki808 on August 15, 2014, 05:15:23 pm
I say no bailout for Bter. They're not too big to fail. They've been robbing us all along with their 0.5% withdrawal fee, so maybe their collapse will be a good thing for NXT long term.

Also, one thing I'm not clear on. Did they actually send 100 BTC to the hacker that robbed them?

yup the hackers account did get paid in full

https://blockchain.info/address/13UZjKkhHWyTmQ4mx28WT5Wj1zw4pEByZw

Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on August 15, 2014, 05:15:53 pm
You didn't need to be tempted with choice. There was nothing wrong with the coin in the first place. BTER's coins should not have been perceived as more valuable or protected than yours or mine. How do you think Graviton feels about his DGEX theft now? "Damn, should have been a much bigger theft, then I could have gotten my stolen coins back." At what point do you trigger your implicit TBTF clause?

At any point. For me that was just doing a favor by writing few lines of the code. If we had more devs able to do this my service wouldn't be required at all.
Title: Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
Post by: Cassius on August 15, 2014, 05:16:27 pm
BTER paid 110 btc for 5m NXT, below market rate.
If that 5m is to be used productively, we need to