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Author Topic: Forgers have been faced with a choice...  (Read 221638 times)

Peter2516

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #880 on: August 15, 2014, 02:54:48 pm »

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trivialcode

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #881 on: August 15, 2014, 02:55:13 pm »

bter was and is a reliable partner for the nxt community and they deserve our support
if needed.
How about DGEX? It was here for NXT even when Bter didn't know anything about NXT.
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ThomasVeil

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #882 on: August 15, 2014, 02:56:30 pm »


The whole NXT idea is built on the fact that the community (specifically the majority of stake holders) can decide about the blockchain.

I think ideally nobody can decide on the blockchain, because it wouldn't be possible to get future millions of forgers to collude on a fork.

Why not? It just needs a good enough reason.
Transparent forging will raise the stakes to 90% - which is IMO OK once the distribution is better. But if 90% agree that one party is a bad actor, then I really don't see whats wrong with acting on that.
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Wakasaki808

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #883 on: August 15, 2014, 02:57:02 pm »

I say, if this happened to a bank with cash, no way to rollback out of that theft. If we want crypto to replace cash in the minds of consumers, it needs to work in a similar way.

The customers of a bank don't lose money when a Bank got hacked.

Right now, there are a lot of people that lost money so there is a lot of emotion.

Not a good comparison.

I still don't know what's the best solution for this though.

This is one reason the general public doesn't accept crypto's from my readings of business articles, random rants about bitcoin, etc. Is because there is no charge-back features, whichdoes clash against the thinking of many here but better or for worse. But for many of the average joes and business people, if they become a victim of fraud/stealing the banks and/or credit card companies are there to help them get their money back.
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megashira1

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #884 on: August 15, 2014, 02:57:07 pm »

I see the collective coming together issueing a rollback as a GOOD THING. We as a community are working together to HELP EACHOTHER. A central entity is not deciding the roll back but the collectivity of many forgers. I don't think the repurcussions of a rollback are as bad as you guys think. The repurcussions of having 50mill NXT floating around with a hacker are far more damaging than having a rollback. Lesser of 2 evils if you will, but i don't even think a rollback in this instance is evil but virtuous.

THIS IS WHAT REAL COMMUNITIES DO, HELP EACHOTHER IN TIMES OF NEED, NOT SAY FUCK IT YOUR LOSS BLABLABLA
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Jacinto

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #885 on: August 15, 2014, 02:58:22 pm »

Better news for the "alternative" chain supporters:

I am working on bugfixes so expect 1.2.5c soon.

Later the BTER account can be unfrozen and an outgoing transaction allowed to a specified account only, so that those funds can be returned to BTER.
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BCNext son.

rtrtcrypto

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #886 on: August 15, 2014, 02:58:43 pm »

NO to re-org. Captain will go down with the ship if needed - all captains in this case.

Negotiate with attacker, escrow 100 btc and get at least 40 million nxt back. If not, so be it.
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TimmyD

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #887 on: August 15, 2014, 02:59:19 pm »

my 1.2.5b wont download chain past the theft block?
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trivialcode

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #888 on: August 15, 2014, 02:59:26 pm »

I hate this "Too big to fail" thinking. Sad to see it at NXT forum.
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Pilot

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #889 on: August 15, 2014, 03:00:27 pm »

It's shocking to see that such a big percentage of the NXT community doesn't clearly grasp the reality that, "rolling back the block chain will quite literally kill NXT forever."

A community EDUCATION EFFORT is needed to inform Nxters on the irreversible, damning consequences of manually rolling back the block chain.

It has completely shaken me that this option was even on the table, given that Bter was at fault, not NXT.

Agreed. Remember when vericoin did a rollback after the mintpal hack and all the NXTers disagreed with it?
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Darkhorse

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #890 on: August 15, 2014, 03:00:56 pm »

Damage done, either way nxt will be judged and will be affected. Best thing to do is minimize the damage. Blue pill or red pill ? They are still pills given to sick.
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Wakasaki808

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #891 on: August 15, 2014, 03:00:59 pm »

NO to re-org. Captain will go down with the ship if needed - all captains in this case.

Negotiate with attacker, escrow 100 btc and get at least 40 million nxt back. If not, so be it.

BTER already gave 110 BTC to the hacker with 5M NXT being returned although the deal was for it all to be returned.
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megashira1

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #892 on: August 15, 2014, 03:01:15 pm »

What provides more confidence for crypto newbs?

50mill NXT was stolen once and never returned (what people can steal that much and get away with it wtf?!??!)

or

50mill NXT was once stolen and the community worked together in retrieving it back and so noone was harmed by the theft.
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Jacinto

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #893 on: August 15, 2014, 03:02:05 pm »

NO to re-org. Captain will go down with the ship if needed - all captains in this case.

Negotiate with attacker, escrow 100 btc and get at least 40 million nxt back. If not, so be it.

BTER already gave 110 BTC to the hacker for 5000000 NXT in return.

FTFY
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BCNext son.

OnlytheTruth

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #894 on: August 15, 2014, 03:03:19 pm »

I would be in favor of the following view of the experience.

Only to allow the exchange into mgw !!!  :-\

OH please mgw is basically a centralized server in disguise. There is no reason to think mgw operators are more careful than the BTER's owner. it is actually much less secure because mgw operators are amateurs.

MGW didn't lose 50 million nxt because of negligence.

LOL no sane people will store even 10K$ on MGW except the operators themselves. So yes no chance for them to lose that much money. Re-read what I wrote "mgw is basically a centralized server in disguise" and "mgw operators are amateurs compare to BTER". It is just fortunate that hackers couldn't care for mgw to exploit it.

I doubt MGW operators would be so negligent in regards to security.

I am not judging MGW operators but good security is an ongoing process which is VERY difficult to maintain. The problem with BTER, poloniex, mintpal and many other exchanges is that they have too many coins and it is difficult not to make a mistake once in a while. There are just so many attack vectors. Look at Graviton, who can say he is not careful? and he has only a few trading pairs. Sorry but i am not trusting a bunch of amateurs doing exchange security. If you are not hacked yet, it is because hacker do not care for you YET. 
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Sydney Blanchard

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #895 on: August 15, 2014, 03:03:59 pm »

It's shocking to see that such a big percentage of the NXT community doesn't clearly grasp the reality that, "rolling back the block chain will quite literally kill NXT forever."

A community EDUCATION EFFORT is needed to inform Nxters on the irreversible, damning consequences of manually rolling back the block chain.

It has completely shaken me that this option was even on the table, given that Bter was at fault, not NXT.

Agreed. Remember when vericoin did a rollback after the mintpal hack and all the NXTers disagreed with it?

Guys, remember when the Bitcoin devs performerd a rollback and Bitcoin carried on just fine? I'm guessing not?
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tersagun

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #896 on: August 15, 2014, 03:04:38 pm »

IF there is a "trick" to only freeze/undo BTER account, seriously, why not doing it?

How come protecting everyone's coins, the well-being of NXT itself is against decentralization, while 1 person's mistake + 1 person's hack is for decentralization?

If there is something wrong on the decentralization front, it must be that only 2 persons are enough to give the ecosystem a huge damage.
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IanDeMartino

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #897 on: August 15, 2014, 03:04:47 pm »

[forum says I can't post external links?]

Much better article than Coindesk article.


Thank you! and for everyone, feel free to ping me if you think I made any mistakes and the article needs a correction.
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lucky88888

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #898 on: August 15, 2014, 03:05:30 pm »

pretty hard to sync up with the new release whats up with that? couldn't get pass 209005 or something i forgot which block. is it because of the battle of chains?
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Wakasaki808

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Re: Forgers have been faced with a choice...
« Reply #899 on: August 15, 2014, 03:06:00 pm »

So if it is that Luc is creating a new NRS that freezes the account and makes it only able to transfer to a certain account. With NO other accounts being affected. I say DO EET. It doesn't affect any others other than the BTER and hacker account.
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