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Tobo

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Re: [ANN] Jinn
« Reply #1260 on: October 11, 2015, 02:01:23 pm »

You believe in something similar to happen in Nxt ::)
not forget that this is a private company and investors only own 10% ,right now, they don't have to be motivated, I think it is not their role.
IMHO

It will be different from Nxt. Nxt is not organized event and Jinn as private company will be organized and have more clear goals and and road map and resources. Founders and workers and investors will be more driven and resolved to success.

I think you should have some motivation to help if you own 0.01% (or less) of the total stocks (image you own 0.01% of any successful IT company with similar products). Investors can take a big role in this project. in the early stage they can help on testing and some other things to reduce the operation cost. In the future, Jinn will have professional VC investors with more industry expertise. Those people can help Jinn to build connections in the industry with clients and form better plans and the strategies.
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rubenbc

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Re: [ANN] Jinn
« Reply #1261 on: October 11, 2015, 02:05:54 pm »

I understand your point of view, but we will see what road they choose to take decisitons.
regards
Rubén

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xiahui135

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Re: [ANN] Jinn
« Reply #1262 on: October 11, 2015, 02:30:03 pm »

The liquid is low now, so I just have bought a little Jinn. If It goes more clear and the liquid grows, I will consider buy more.
The risk and profit need to be consider together.
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achim

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Re: [ANN] Jinn
« Reply #1263 on: October 11, 2015, 02:46:48 pm »

at the end of September we will have our first hardware components for testing back from MOSIS.

Out of interest: Did you already get some hardware to play around? If not, is there an alternative date?
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jabo38

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Re: [ANN] Jinn
« Reply #1264 on: October 12, 2015, 02:57:48 pm »

You believe in something similar to happen in Nxt ::)
not forget that this is a private company and investors only own 10% ,right now, they don't have to be motivated, I think it is not their role.
IMHO

It will be different from Nxt. Nxt is not organized event and Jinn as private company will be organized and have more clear goals and and road map and resources. Founders and workers and investors will be more driven and resolved to success.

I think you should have some motivation to help if you own 0.01% (or less) of the total stocks (image you own 0.01% of any successful IT company with similar products). Investors can take a big role in this project. in the early stage they can help on testing and some other things to reduce the operation cost. In the future, Jinn will have professional VC investors with more industry expertise. Those people can help Jinn to build connections in the industry with clients and form better plans and the strategies.

That is kind of the logic NEM had with a wide distribution.  Instead there was a majority of people wondering why they weren't millionaires already and whining about it.  You can count on maybe 5 of those 280 accounts to really devote some serious effort into that project I am guessing. 
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achim

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Re: [ANN] Jinn
« Reply #1265 on: October 13, 2015, 07:48:42 am »

A bird (page monitor chrome extension) told me that someone updated jinnlabs.com
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rubenbc

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Re: [ANN] Jinn
« Reply #1266 on: October 13, 2015, 08:45:10 am »

A bird (page monitor chrome extension) told me that someone updated jinnlabs.com
http://unbouncepages.com/jinn-labs/

Evan

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Re: [ANN] Jinn
« Reply #1267 on: October 15, 2015, 03:56:48 pm »

at the end of September we will have our first hardware components for testing back from MOSIS.

Out of interest: Did you already get some hardware to play around? If not, is there an alternative date?

?
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EFFV

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Re: [ANN] Jinn
« Reply #1268 on: October 15, 2015, 05:54:06 pm »

Jinn price seems to be doing well. Cant wait for the CFB whitepaper.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2015, 05:58:14 pm by EFFV »
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achim

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Re: [ANN] Jinn
« Reply #1269 on: October 19, 2015, 07:20:21 am »

CfB hints that trinary processing has an even bigger advantage over binary than (I) thought:


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1085436.msg12723321#msg12723321

This is sortof what is done for the scalars in Joint Sparse Form multiplication, see "Low-Weight Binary Representations for Pairs of Integers" http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.29.440

I don't know how it can be applied to curve representation. Do you have an idea?

Well, I'm asking because I'm not completely familiar with this stuff. I noticed that representation of numbers in balanced trinary form does give some advantage (e.g. https://www.cdc.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de/~dahmen/papers/DOT05b.pdf), also balanced trinary is the only numeral system where multiplication is as simple as in binary, and addition is even simpler (carry propagation happens less often). Even more, balanced trinary doesn't require a special "bit" to represent the sign of a number, i.e. naturally stores the sign inside its digits. All this should speedup math beyond inherent advantage of trinary being closer to 2.718 than binary, this is why I asked the question.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2015, 07:31:22 am by achim »
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Triangle

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Re: [ANN] Jinn
« Reply #1270 on: October 21, 2015, 06:38:45 pm »

UPDATE

PART 1: JINN Reality check

We have registered that a lot of JINN token holders are confused about what Jinn really is and/or what JINN tokens represent. This has lead to a lot of speculation into why the development is so ‘slow’ as well as good old speculators pumping for profit and trolls playing on fear, so here is a large dose of reality:

Jinn is a semiconductor start-up developing perhaps the most unorthodox general purpose processor for commercial use ever. Ternary has not seen physical implementation since Soviet 1970 and asynchronous processors have only been developed a handful of times, primarily in research laboratories decade(s) ago. The combination of both ternary and asynchronous has never even been attempted before Jinn. It’s important to understand that Jinn is primarily hardware, not software. In software projects you can put together a prototype/proof of concept/minimum-viable-product in days, weeks or months on a small or even non-existent budget. In the hardware microprocessor research and development realm this is not so. We are not just dealing with code (though we do that too for compiler, emulator and the necessary custom tools), but actual electrical engineering. This means that even if our processor was a run of the mill type without any exotic tech, it would still be a lengthy and very expensive process. To put all of this into perspective consider 21.co which developed a processor/ASIC in regular synchronous binary architecture on a ~120 million dollar budget. Even with this funding it still took them a long while, even while teamed up with one of the leading semiconductors in the world (Qualcomm).

If you ask pretty much any person with knowledge about this industry and technology, they will give Jinn a very low estimate of success, hence why we labelled this a HIGH RISK project from day 1. Also listed in our project outline was the potential problem of volatility and illiquidity of nxt tokens pooled together for this project. As Murphy would have it, this happened and we lost over 50% of our already microscopic resources (in the context of the semiconductor industry). On top of this we lost a few months of time due to early employees having to be let go due to not meeting obligations, such is start-up life. Add to this that the semiconductor venture capital environment is one of the least friendly, precisely due to the immense overhead hardware projects have. It’s much easier to pour funds into software which costs little to develop and has potential for massive return on investment. In short: this is still very much long term and high risk.

The last issue we need to address is this idea that seems to have just emerged out of nowhere over the last weeks. It seems someone started claiming that JINN tokens represent equity in the company we’re building. It does not. Jinn + Jiniri is the processor + emulator project in our company, we never issued equity in said company, we couldn’t even if we wanted to for legal reasons. JINN tokens, like we specified from day 1, will receive tokens directly from the sales of Jinn processor and Jiniri Unlimited subscriptions.

With all that being said and hopefully sufficiently clarified, we are still moving full steam ahead with Jinn, but it will still be a long time before it yields any ‘dividends’ via JINN tokens, if ever. If this iteration fails for whatever reason, we will have to begin from scratch and do a complete new fundraiser. This is just brutal reality that everyone needs to be aware of. Like we have said all along: JINN tokens are *high risk* and do not represent equity in Jinn. The hardware industry is A LOT more time-consuming and less forgiving than the software industry. Sadly, but predictably, there are a lot of people who benefit handsomely by hyping JINN tokens every time we make any kind of announcement, which is why we have done everything in our power to keep all info under the veil and limit the updates to only the concrete info we have.

While this might be sobering news for some of you, there is good news too!
We are extremely grateful for any and every person that has and continues to support the Jinn project in any fashion. It is very important for us that everyone that was part of the initial fundraiser is making their choices based on facts and not hype. So due to this unfounded hype and confusion that has arisen from speculators, we are going to offer an alternative to those that do not like timeframes measured in years or the exceedingly high-risk involved with hardware. Enter Iota.


PART 2: IOTA

We decided to start developing Iota because it is needed for Jinn’s visions to become a reality. We analyzed the options available anno 2015, (Nxt, Bitcoin, Ethereum etc.) and while we strongly believe that each of these projects have killer applications for their own domain, they are not fit for mass-scale Internet-of-Things micro-transactions, which is a requirement for the market for the Jinn powered devices.

So what does this mean for JINN holders? Due to the nature of how virtually everyone came into possession of JINN tokens, most are used to tokens/coins and the markets/ecosystem that revolves around them. This is an offer from us to JINN holders to get a safe ‘exit’ into the familiar territory where results are a lot more immediate and reliable. We will hold our crowdsale of IOTA tokens in the not too distant future where we will accept Bitcoin and JINN tokens.

THIS ONLY APPLIES FOR HOLDERS PRE-BLOCK 549824

One caveat: those who elect to trade-in their JINN tokens for Iota has to trade in the entirety of their Jinn holdings tied to that account. The reason behind this is that we wish to minimize the amount of holders for logistics reasons.

It’s important to note that *even if* Jinn were to fail, Iota will not as a consequence. Iota is a completely separate and independent technology that will thrive on its own merits, regardless of what happens to Jinn.

More info about Iota can be found at: www.iotatoken.com and https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1216479

Now everyone has to make their own well-informed decision based on their own opinions and facts, not hype.


more details will come in the coming days...
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rtrtcrypto

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Re: [ANN] Jinn
« Reply #1271 on: October 21, 2015, 07:26:12 pm »

So you are backtracking on this???

Before, it was clearly stated the shares/asset represented a % of the companies Profits OR of a potential sale.

So. Has this changed or not? I have records of all our exchanges, I'm curious about how much if it you are now backing away from.

Thx



Yes, the answer to this question is very important - if JINN is sold for x number of dollars, a fund should be created from which the asset holders can claim their x% of DOLLARS (or whatever was used to close the deal) from.

It would be disappointing if I held X% of JINN and it sold for 20 billion dollars which I never got a % of in any meaningful way. But, I hope the team will do the right thing - we support the project and hope in turn that everything works out for all parties involved!


I've been wanting an official answer to this question. If the dream scenario happens and Jinn is a very successful company and gets bought out for Billions how will the asset holders get their share? Or Jinn does not sell out but is making millions in profit how will profits be distributed? It is extremely unlikely Nxt will be a liquid enough currency to distribute the payout equivalent to Millions or Billions in USD.

If my share of Jinn tokens are worth in the millions of dollars I would have no problem providing my real life personal info and proofs to get my check. Is that what would happen?


Understandably, this question is the one we get most often. So let me again reassure anyone who is concerned: yes if we are either bought out for X sum or making profits of Y, then the Jinn-token holders will get the equivalent percentage released to them. Exactly how we will do this is not worked out yet, simply because the liquidity of Nxt does not allow for such a scenario at this point.

Most likely the scenario will evolve in the lines of what rtrtcrypto is asking. I.E. we'll need to get the real life personal info and then sign up the contracts and transfer over profit-shares. Of course Nxt could also blow up by then and make it possible to pay out via Nxt, but be sure that no matter what we'll find a solution that works for Jinn token holders.

We are very grateful and happy to those who believe in us and supported us via the auction!
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rtrtcrypto

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Re: [ANN] Jinn
« Reply #1272 on: October 21, 2015, 07:29:31 pm »

Let me also say, Triangle, that it's best to just be 100% transparent about the state of JINN. This was all phrased like you guys have given up on JINN and want to present a new project without saying outright that JINN is dead or very close to dying.



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Fatih87SK

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Re: [ANN] Jinn
« Reply #1273 on: October 21, 2015, 07:34:16 pm »

Thanks for the update Triangle. Everything is clear now and my trust within your team has grown........

I think. Or not. I don't know. Still holding though and will buy that new coin you mention as well.

Yolo.
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Triangle

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Re: [ANN] Jinn
« Reply #1274 on: October 21, 2015, 07:38:20 pm »

Let me also say, Triangle, that it's best to just be 100% transparent about the state of JINN. This was all phrased like you guys have given up on JINN and want to present a new project without saying outright that JINN is dead or very close to dying.

How can you conclude that from what was posted here? We are 100% transparent and have been from day 1. But the value of JINN tokens fluctuate insanely due to speculators pumping, this leads to disillusioned people PMing us trying to seek additional info. It's a vicious cycle that we do not have time for. Our time is dedicated to ensuring Jinn has the absolute greatest chance of success possible, but we have said from day 1 that it can fail for a number of reasons.

Re: JINN tokens representing a % in the company itself, never been said. Sales of Jinn processor and Jiniri emulator licenses, yes. Just like mentioned in the update given tonight. Absolutely nothing has changed, but lately there's been some posts talking about Jinn equity, so it had to be addressed so people don't invest in JINN tokens on false grounds.
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rtrtcrypto

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Re: [ANN] Jinn
« Reply #1275 on: October 21, 2015, 07:46:04 pm »

1) I am not concerned about JINN failing or not, per se. I am simply trying to figure out the level of panic/concern in the TEAM (your team). I can't quite figure out if the post was a clarification for JINN holders or a heads-up warning before the castle crumbles.

2) and most importantly to me, I don't much care what you call JINN tokens... shares, equity, bananas, etc... the entire time it was stated clearly that JINN TOKENS represent a % of the profits in the company. What was not clear and what you clarified multiple times in this very thread was that, in the case that JINN as a company was SOLD, you would be obligated to payout a % of that payout to the holders in relation to the % of JINN they hold.

So, 1 billion sale, I owe 1%, I get 1% of 1 billion. This was made extremely clear. And AGAIN, I ask, has THIS CHANGED?

If so, then something HAS changed from what was previously promised. There are no two ways around this. Regardless of what the token is being called.

Anyway, that is the only question I care about - it is the only thing that will effect my decision going forward.

Thanks,



Let me also say, Triangle, that it's best to just be 100% transparent about the state of JINN. This was all phrased like you guys have given up on JINN and want to present a new project without saying outright that JINN is dead or very close to dying.

How can you conclude that from what was posted here? We are 100% transparent and have been from day 1. But the value of JINN tokens fluctuate insanely due to speculators pumping, this leads to disillusioned people PMing us trying to seek additional info. It's a vicious cycle that we do not have time for. Our time is dedicated to ensuring Jinn has the absolute greatest chance of success possible, but we have said from day 1 that it can fail for a number of reasons.

Re: JINN tokens representing a % in the company itself, never been said. Sales of Jinn processor and Jiniri emulator licenses, yes. Just like mentioned in the update given tonight. Absolutely nothing has changed, but lately there's been some posts talking about Jinn equity, so it had to be addressed so people don't invest in JINN tokens on false grounds.
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rlh

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Re: [ANN] Jinn
« Reply #1276 on: October 21, 2015, 08:00:53 pm »

Ok... can I transfer out say, half of my Jinn holdings to a separate account, and transfer the other half for IOTA?  I want to take advantage of what (seems like) an early-bird buy-in for JINN supporters, but I don't want to give up all of my JINN tokens in the process... only some of them.

I support JINN for the long haul.  I said it originally-- this is a type of computational hardware revolution I'd like to be a part of in supporting.  I can't just walk away for a coin that will certainly see a significant rise.  Well, maybe I can, so long as I can buy back into JINN after the huge profitability push that comes from it's release.

Uuugh...  Thank you Triangle for the updates, but this isn't an easy decision to make.
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Triangle

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Re: [ANN] Jinn
« Reply #1277 on: October 21, 2015, 08:05:10 pm »

1) I am not concerned about JINN failing or not, per se. I am simply trying to figure out the level of panic/concern in the TEAM (your team). I can't quite figure out if the post was a clarification for JINN holders or a heads-up warning before the castle crumbles.

There is no level of panic. We would never 'let people down lightly' by hinting of the demise. If Jinn collapses, we will let everyone know right away. We have warned everyone of the risks from day 1, so we have absolutely no reluctance tied to revealing if that happens.
But we needed to reiterate this in clear terms because the value of JINN tokens have gone up 5-6x mainly due to speculating, giving people false beliefs.

Quote
2) and most importantly to me, I don't much care what you call JINN tokens... shares, equity, bananas, etc... the entire time it was stated clearly that JINN TOKENS represent a % of the profits in the company. What was not clear and what you clarified multiple times in this very thread was that, in the case that JINN as a company was SOLD, you would be obligated to payout a % of that payout to the holders in relation to the % of JINN they hold.

Not in the company, in the processor. If Jinn was acquired by a company when all we have is Jinn, then they are essentially buying the patents and IP of Jinn, so that is something we consider a sale of Jinn processor. So yes.

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rtrtcrypto

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Re: [ANN] Jinn
« Reply #1278 on: October 21, 2015, 08:24:11 pm »

This is part of the confusion,

You talk about JINN as being an umbrella of things all over this thread, not as if JINN is only one thing that is part of some larger entity. JINIRI, UNLIMITED, JINN, etc... are all under an umbrella JINN, that even has a logo and a website (or had). So, the impression is that JINN is the umbrella from which many other smaller things are under.

Now, JINN is just the processor, but, the token also covers the software/emulator and the other things mentioned in this thread. Those things would be part of the sale as well (I presume).

This should have all been rather simple:

You started JINN, which is trying to work on a suite of projects (one being the hardware)... this suite could sell one day to a larger entity, under that scenario, the holders of the token are covered. That suite may also be sold as hardware/software/etc... these sales would give JINN the company (because you have not called yourselves something else, you are a company named JINN after all, no?) profits... those profits would also be given to token holders in accordance to their respective % of held tokens.

If JINN the company is not JINN the HARDWARE, then you needed to make that more clear (and honestly, that would also mean you didn't quite know how to set this entire thing up).

The worst scenario would be "HEY, WE SOLD JINN THE COMPANY for 20 billion, BUT WE GOT RID OF JINN THE PROCESSOR, and so you get NOTHING".





1) I am not concerned about JINN failing or not, per se. I am simply trying to figure out the level of panic/concern in the TEAM (your team). I can't quite figure out if the post was a clarification for JINN holders or a heads-up warning before the castle crumbles.

There is no level of panic. We would never 'let people down lightly' by hinting of the demise. If Jinn collapses, we will let everyone know right away. We have warned everyone of the risks from day 1, so we have absolutely no reluctance tied to revealing if that happens.
But we needed to reiterate this in clear terms because the value of JINN tokens have gone up 5-6x mainly due to speculating, giving people false beliefs.

Quote
2) and most importantly to me, I don't much care what you call JINN tokens... shares, equity, bananas, etc... the entire time it was stated clearly that JINN TOKENS represent a % of the profits in the company. What was not clear and what you clarified multiple times in this very thread was that, in the case that JINN as a company was SOLD, you would be obligated to payout a % of that payout to the holders in relation to the % of JINN they hold.

Not in the company, in the processor. If Jinn was acquired by a company when all we have is Jinn, then they are essentially buying the patents and IP of Jinn, so that is something we consider a sale of Jinn processor. So yes.
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EFFV

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Re: [ANN] Jinn
« Reply #1279 on: October 21, 2015, 08:57:13 pm »

Ok... can I transfer out say, half of my Jinn holdings to a separate account, and transfer the other half for IOTA?  I want to take advantage of what (seems like) an early-bird buy-in for JINN supporters, but I don't want to give up all of my JINN tokens in the process... only some of them.

I support JINN for the long haul.  I said it originally-- this is a type of computational hardware revolution I'd like to be a part of in supporting.  I can't just walk away for a coin that will certainly see a significant rise.  Well, maybe I can, so long as I can buy back into JINN after the huge profitability push that comes from it's release.

Uuugh...  Thank you Triangle for the updates, but this isn't an easy decision to make.

Hello Triangle,

Thank you for the update.  Like the previous poster I support Jinn in the long run, and I would like to second his question. Can I transfer some of my Jinn holdings to a second account and then transfer the other half for Iota?

Thank you,
EFFV
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