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jl777

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Nodecoin
« on: March 28, 2014, 11:22:49 pm »

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=395761.msg5956815#msg5956815

above is from a bitcoin dev maaku, note:
"Because despite bitcoin being in the process of going mainstream and getting all sorts of attention from everybody, everywhere, the number of full nodes is declining."
...
"I don't want to cause undue fear and panic as with time and effort and education and innovation this situation is correctable. But if left to run its course this trend would mean the death of bitcoin."

Bitcoin needs nodecoin too!

James
« Last Edit: April 11, 2014, 12:11:17 pm by farl4bit, Reason: Corrected Capitalization in title »
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kodtycoon

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Re: nodecoin
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2014, 11:29:01 pm »

could you apply your coding of nodecoin to bitcoin like you did to nxt? swoop in and be the savoir of bitcoin lol
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jl777

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Re: nodecoin
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2014, 11:31:18 pm »

could you apply your coding of nodecoin to bitcoin like you did to nxt? swoop in and be the savoir of bitcoin lol
If there was a reliable way to detect if somebody was running a full node, then I could, but they would need to have a NXT acct too.
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kodtycoon

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Re: nodecoin
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2014, 12:36:21 am »

no i just mean apply the same theory to bitcoin as you did with nxt.. just show them how you done it.. let them do the rest.. and have nothing to do with nxt.. the media would take it up as nxt saving bitcoin from disaster! or does bitcoin not have the capacity to support that sort of thing?
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bitcoinpaul

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Re: nodecoin
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2014, 06:54:07 am »

Don't give our precious tool away for free - let it first destroy nxt  ;D ;) ;D
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jl777

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Re: nodecoin
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2014, 08:51:05 am »

I do seem to keep coming up with ideas that a lot of people dont like, but it seems just as many, if not more do like.
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IveBeenBit

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Re: nodecoin
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2014, 10:16:05 pm »

I was away from Nxt when the whole Nodecoin thing went down. Can someone tell me the mechanics of the proposed system? I understand it's supposed to reward people running nodes even if they don't have a lot of Nxt, but that's all I got.
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jl777

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Re: nodecoin
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2014, 11:24:09 pm »

I was away from Nxt when the whole Nodecoin thing went down. Can someone tell me the mechanics of the proposed system? I understand it's supposed to reward people running nodes even if they don't have a lot of Nxt, but that's all I got.
Its really simple. Every block, it reports its peers
The nodecoin pool server, tabulates the results and allocates nodecoins based on the number of times a node was listed as a peer, with an extra share bonus for having reported.

That's it. Just a couple hundred lines of code. So simple. So controversial.

I will be adding more work for nodeminer to do, so ultimately the nodes will have to do more work to earn their share, but I am targeting < 1 CPU core so it can run quietly in the background.

James
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IveBeenBit

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Re: nodecoin
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2014, 11:27:23 pm »

And then what good are the nodecoins? Why would I want a nodecoin? I can't eat it, after all.
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jl777

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Re: nodecoin
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2014, 12:03:18 am »

And then what good are the nodecoins? Why would I want a nodecoin? I can't eat it, after all.
Hmmm. Edible cryptos!
I never claimed nodecoins were good eatin :)
I think they taste like chicken

James
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IveBeenBit

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Re: nodecoin
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2014, 12:32:33 am »

OK so I made a joke about nodecoin in my post.

You are saying that nodecoins will incentivize running a Nxt node because those who run nodes will be paid in node coins.

I am curious as to why people will want nodecoins in the first place. What would cause someone to say, "I will run a Nxt node because I want to collect nodecoins?"
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rdanneskjoldr

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Re: nodecoin
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2014, 02:05:42 am »

IMO people should run nodes because they decide to do it for themselves, not for getting paid for it. Paying for that would be repeating a bitcoin mistake.
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jl777

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Re: nodecoin
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2014, 02:05:57 am »

OK so I made a joke about nodecoin in my post.

You are saying that nodecoins will incentivize running a Nxt node because those who run nodes will be paid in node coins.

I am curious as to why people will want nodecoins in the first place. What would cause someone to say, "I will run a Nxt node because I want to collect nodecoins?"
Because there will be a bid/ask in NXT AE for them
Anything that has a bid/ask will have bidders and sellers
thus, a market
thus a market value

maybe it will be very, very low
maybe some people will want to collect them
maybe there will be things that nodecoins can actually purchase
nodecoins are very, very speculative
but, it doesnt really cost anything to get them, so maybe people will

also, I am planning on adding some cool features to nodeminer, so that people will want to run that, regardless of whether they get nodecoins or not.

Nodecoin was very popular when it was active. so popular, some theorized the total destruction of NXT itself
I think I have to work hard to make them unpopular so NXT will be safe

James
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jl777

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Re: nodecoin
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2014, 02:08:36 am »

IMO people should run nodes because they decide to do it for themselves, not for getting paid for it. Paying for that would be repeating a bitcoin mistake.
they are not getting paid
they are just getting nodecoins to track how much they are running their node
think of it as a point system
people like to see how many points they are getting
it also tastes like chicken
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jl777

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Re: nodecoin
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2014, 02:12:58 am »

IMO people should run nodes because they decide to do it for themselves, not for getting paid for it. Paying for that would be repeating a bitcoin mistake.
also I think a key point is that nodecoins cannot be mined like normal PoW.
only one share per IP address/nxtacct
only to the extent they are utilized as good peers by the other nodes
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gs02xzz

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Re: nodecoin
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2014, 02:18:40 am »

could you apply your coding of nodecoin to bitcoin like you did to nxt? swoop in and be the savoir of bitcoin lol
If there was a reliable way to detect if somebody was running a full node, then I could, but they would need to have a NXT acct too.

Why not sell it (and the idea) to bitcoin if you think they need it and think it is a good idea. If it applies to bitcoin it should only need bitcoin account. Why do they need Nxt account?

Rome was not built in one day. We have to see the big picture. Lots of issues will be solved when we get to our bigger goals. Like the forging, no one expects to make profit or breakeven at this time. Everyone running the nodes and forging is self subsidized or simply does it as the community duty because there is so few transactions at this early stage. When we can build up business and there are many business running on Nxt, we will have much much more transactions plus the ability to lease the forging power and forging might be profitable or break-even with lower fees. At this moment, our priority should not be creating a mechanism to subsidizing the node forging (if we need to subsidize people we rather do it with Nxt). Instead, we should focus on building more business on Nxt and increasing the amount of transactions on Nxt platform.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 02:56:33 am by gs02xzz »
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IveBeenBit

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Re: nodecoin
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2014, 02:36:55 am »

Here's a weird ass idea that maybe will spark some creativity...it's probably not possible the way that I write it, but feel free to steal the idea and modify it how you see fit if you think it'd be useful.

People running nodes receive nodecoins. They can collect them, eat them, sell them on the AE or bid for Nxt with them.

When zerocoin / Nxtcash is operational, take a 0.1% fee for the anonymizing service. The fee gets deposited into an account.

Once every 1440 blocks, people transfer their node coins to a particular address. Whoever sends the most nodecoins in that "round" will win all the accumulated zerocoin fees.

All nodecoins sent in are destroyed, even if you don't win the "auction."

This will keep trillions of nodecoins from piling up everywhere with no real use for them.

It will be almost like a game of poker where people devise strategies to try and get the Nxt at the lowest cost of nodecoin.

Think of the fun it could be. If there's a big nodecoin whale, I could conspire with 1 or 2 other nodecoin holders to jack up the price to win the jackpot one day. The whale will think that the "market price" for the jackpot is now higher, so the next day they will spend way more nodecoins than they have to as me and the people on my team don't bid at all. Now my competitors are nodecoin broke because they needlessly spent all their nodecoins and my team can get cheap Nxt for a couple days.

Maybe only hold the auction once per week to make the jackpot bigger.

Just an idea...

If we don't want to skim fees from zerocoin, someone could set up an AT that collects voluntary donations and holds a weekly nodecoin auction of the sort I describe above. Maybe we can even convince the Nxt whales that sending 5% of their forging fees to the nodecoin auction is their civic duty.
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IveBeenBit

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Re: nodecoin
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2014, 02:43:47 am »

I can also see it being possible that holding a large nodecoin balance becomes a status symbol.

Sort of the way people will pay a lot of money for a hybrid car even though they could get a better car for less money. Driving a hybrid makes a statement that says, "I'm environmentally friendly."

Having a ton of nodecoins, even if you buy them on the AE says, "I support the people running nodes. Therefore I am a good Nxt citizen."

Still, I like my other idea of the auction for real Nxt ten times better.
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jl777

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Re: nodecoin
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2014, 02:54:06 am »

Here's a weird ass idea that maybe will spark some creativity...it's probably not possible the way that I write it, but feel free to steal the idea and modify it how you see fit if you think it'd be useful.

People running nodes receive nodecoins. They can collect them, eat them, sell them on the AE or bid for Nxt with them.

When zerocoin / Nxtcash is operational, take a 0.1% fee for the anonymizing service. The fee gets deposited into an account.

Once every 1440 blocks, people transfer their node coins to a particular address. Whoever sends the most nodecoins in that "round" will win all the accumulated zerocoin fees.

All nodecoins sent in are destroyed, even if you don't win the "auction."

This will keep trillions of nodecoins from piling up everywhere with no real use for them.

It will be almost like a game of poker where people devise strategies to try and get the Nxt at the lowest cost of nodecoin.

Think of the fun it could be. If there's a big nodecoin whale, I could conspire with 1 or 2 other nodecoin holders to jack up the price to win the jackpot one day. The whale will think that the "market price" for the jackpot is now higher, so the next day they will spend way more nodecoins than they have to as me and the people on my team don't bid at all. Now my competitors are nodecoin broke because they needlessly spent all their nodecoins and my team can get cheap Nxt for a couple days.

Maybe only hold the auction once per week to make the jackpot bigger.

Just an idea...

If we don't want to skim fees from zerocoin, someone could set up an AT that collects voluntary donations and holds a weekly nodecoin auction of the sort I describe above. Maybe we can even convince the Nxt whales that sending 5% of their forging fees to the nodecoin auction is their civic duty.
Nodecoins will actually be quite scarce. Only 100 per block, so 100,000 per day distributed pretty evenly. It would not be easy to accumulate 1000 nodecoins

That being said, I like creative ways to creating interest, as interest becomes value

For now, I am still concentrating on multigateway so nodecoin is not top of list right now. soon though, soon. nodecoin will reign again

James
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jl777

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Re: nodecoin
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2014, 02:57:05 am »

could you apply your coding of nodecoin to bitcoin like you did to nxt? swoop in and be the savoir of bitcoin lol
If there was a reliable way to detect if somebody was running a full node, then I could, but they would need to have a NXT acct too.

Why not sell it (and the idea) to bitcoin if you think they need it and think it is a good idea. If it applies to bitcoin it should only need bitcoin account. Why do they need Nxt account?

Rome was not built in one day. We have to see the big picture. Lots of issues will be solved when we get to our bigger goals. Like the forging, no one expects to make profit or breakeven at this time. Everyone running the nodes and forging is self subsidized or simply does it as the community duty because there is so few transactions at this early stage. When we can build up business and there are many business running on Nxt, we will have much much more transactions plus the ability to lease the forging power and forging might be profitable or break-even with lower fees. At this moment, our priority should not be creating a mechanism to subsidizing the node forging. Instead, we should focus on building more business on Nxt and increasing the amount of transactions on Nxt platform.
Why not have out cake and some nodecoins too?
nodecoin is not a priority, I have spent more time discussing it than the half day it took to code it
nodecoin is valuable as nodeminer can embed a NXT health monitor, which will allow us to detect when the network is in a fork, or under attack.

That alone makes it worth doing in my mind

James
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