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Author Topic: MS Coin for Shuffling Nxt  (Read 10286 times)

msin

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MS Coin for Shuffling Nxt
« on: January 08, 2015, 09:56:28 pm »

Can someone (lyaffe) tell me the optimal setup for a MS coin which only serves as a method to mix Nxt?  Thanks.
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Riker

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Re: MS Coin for Shuffling Nxt
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2015, 07:21:59 am »

Can someone (lyaffe) tell me the optimal setup for a MS coin which only serves as a method to mix Nxt?  Thanks.

As far as I can tell at the moment, shuffling has no restrictions related to any other currency types. The only restriction is that all shuffling participate register the same number of currency units or NXT.
If we don't run into any issues, shuffling will be enabled for any currency which was not marked explicitly as non-shuffleable.
The current code (currently in Alpha stage) also allows shuffling NXT itself thus cutting the middleman currency, which is a much more common use case in my view, but we are still debating if to allow this or not.
What is your opinion ?
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bitcoinpaul

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Re: MS Coin for Shuffling Nxt
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2015, 07:23:46 am »

Can someone (lyaffe) tell me the optimal setup for a MS coin which only serves as a method to mix Nxt?  Thanks.

As far as I can tell at the moment, shuffling has no restrictions related to any other currency types. The only restriction is that all shuffling participate register the same number of currency units or NXT.
If we don't run into any issues, shuffling will be enabled for any currency which was not marked explicitly as non-shuffleable.
The current code (currently in Alpha stage) also allows shuffling NXT itself thus cutting the middleman currency, which is a much more common use case in my view, but we are still debating if to allow this or not.
What is your opinion ?

Allow.
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Come-from-Beyond

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Re: MS Coin for Shuffling Nxt
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2015, 08:23:49 am »

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valarmg

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Re: MS Coin for Shuffling Nxt
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2015, 09:53:57 am »

Can someone (lyaffe) tell me the optimal setup for a MS coin which only serves as a method to mix Nxt?  Thanks.

As far as I can tell at the moment, shuffling has no restrictions related to any other currency types. The only restriction is that all shuffling participate register the same number of currency units or NXT.
If we don't run into any issues, shuffling will be enabled for any currency which was not marked explicitly as non-shuffleable.
The current code (currently in Alpha stage) also allows shuffling NXT itself thus cutting the middleman currency, which is a much more common use case in my view, but we are still debating if to allow this or not.
What is your opinion ?

100% allow. What are the reasons for disallowing?
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Come-from-Beyond

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Re: MS Coin for Shuffling Nxt
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2015, 10:09:11 am »

100% allow. What are the reasons for disallowing?

AFAIK noone analyzed how TF and mixing of NXT would work. I mean analyzing, not just thinking for a moment "I don't see any problem, let's mix NXTs".
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valarmg

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Re: MS Coin for Shuffling Nxt
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2015, 10:17:23 am »

100% allow. What are the reasons for disallowing?

AFAIK noone analyzed how TF and mixing of NXT would work. I mean analyzing, not just thinking for a moment "I don't see any problem, let's mix NXTs".

Okay, analyzing should be done first, and also simulations using the Haskell/Coq tools. Make sure there are no technical reasons why it shouldn't be done.
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natty

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Re: MS Coin for Shuffling Nxt
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2015, 10:23:30 am »

100% allow. What are the reasons for disallowing?

AFAIK noone analyzed how TF and mixing of NXT would work. I mean analyzing, not just thinking for a moment "I don't see any problem, let's mix NXTs".

Okay, analyzing should be done first, and also simulations using the Haskell/Coq tools. Make sure there are no technical reasons why it shouldn't be done.

Consensus research asset is not getting much love. Hungry scientists don't make good researchers.
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Isildur23

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Re: MS Coin for Shuffling Nxt
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2015, 11:20:50 am »

100% allow. What are the reasons for disallowing?

AFAIK noone analyzed how TF and mixing of NXT would work. I mean analyzing, not just thinking for a moment "I don't see any problem, let's mix NXTs".

But if mixing is done via a MS currency, it would not affect TF, right?
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Come-from-Beyond

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Re: MS Coin for Shuffling Nxt
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2015, 11:21:28 am »

But if mixing is done via a MS currency, it would not affect TF, right?

Right.
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Riker

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Re: MS Coin for Shuffling Nxt
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2015, 11:55:57 am »

My understanding is that the risk of coin shuffling using NXT, is that during the shuffling process the forging balance of the participants is reduced temporarily until shuffling is concluded and this can take days or weeks in some cases, therefore if its heavily used it can reduce the forging power of the network. Its a similar phenomena to issuing a reserveable/claimable currency and locking your NXT.
 
My estimate is that its not a big risk. Even if popularity sky rockets, a typical shuffling would not involve more 100K NXT and we will have no more than 100 running concurrently thus reducing the forging power by 1% at most.

Shuffling currencies does not reduce the forging power directly, however, if the shuffling is performed using reserveable/claimable currency the NXT used for shuffling is locked anyway so its as secure as shuffling the NXT directly.

Shuffling on non-claimable currency is less attractive since you'll have to exchange NXT into currency then shuffle then exchange back to NXT losing the spread in the process.
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msin

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Re: MS Coin for Shuffling Nxt
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2015, 04:27:30 pm »

Thanks Lyaffe for the responses.  I would say my initial response would be to allow shuffling within Nxt, however if it affects TF (which is more important than Nxt shuffling) I would say let's stick to shuffling within MS.  I was interested in issuing a very simple MS specifically for shuffling, with no cost to the user other than the transaction fee.
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msin

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Re: MS Coin for Shuffling Nxt
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2015, 06:05:19 pm »

Questions
1. Can someone explain how mixing takes place within MS, is it between independent owners of coin or can coins be mixed directly with issuers supply? 
2. Will Controllable negate the ability for a user to effectively mix a coins?
3. Also need some clarification on Exchange Booth fees, does the buyer pay both tx fees for buying and selling a coin?

Here is a scenario (assuming mixing can take place with issuers supply)

Issue a coin as both Exchangeable and Controllable.  This way the coin can't be traded on open market.
List coin on Exchange Booth offering to sell 1 coin for 100 Nxt, and offer to buy 1 coin for 100 Nxt.
Buyer buys 1 coin for 100Nxt, spending an additional 1 Nxt for Tx fee.
Buyer mixes coin (I'm assuming transferring ownership to another Nxt account)
Buyer then sells 1 coin back to me for 100 Nxt on Exchange Booth, spending 1 Nxt for Tx fee.
Buyer spends maximum 102 Nxt to mix 100 Nxt.

I'm still unclear on how exactly mixing takes place.  If it has to happen between users, then I would make the coin only Exchangeable and issue an extremely large supply so there is no secondary market and then of course put up a very large buy order on Exchange booth so the buyer never pays more than he/she paid and tx fees to mix coin. 
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Come-from-Beyond

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Re: MS Coin for Shuffling Nxt
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2015, 06:35:42 pm »

Here some pictures - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=567625.msg6370451#msg6370451

Everyone pays fees for himself on every stage.

I don't know all details related to Controllable, etc.
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msin

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Re: MS Coin for Shuffling Nxt
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2015, 06:41:23 pm »

Here some pictures - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=567625.msg6370451#msg6370451

Everyone pays fees for himself on every stage.

I don't know all details related to Controllable, etc.

Okay thanks, definitely looks like multiple parties are required.  Hopefully Lyaffe can shed some light.
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Riker

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Re: MS Coin for Shuffling Nxt
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2015, 08:21:15 pm »

Coin shuffling documentation is here https://bitbucket.org/JeanLucPicard/nxt/issue/135
Controlable shouldn't be a problem since at the end of the shuffling all currency balances remain the same and due to this I don't think it will clash with any other currency property.

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Come-from-Beyond

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Re: MS Coin for Shuffling Nxt
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2015, 09:07:51 pm »

Coin shuffling documentation is here https://bitbucket.org/JeanLucPicard/nxt/issue/135
Controlable shouldn't be a problem since at the end of the shuffling all currency balances remain the same and due to this I don't think it will clash with any other currency property.

For users it's true - balances will remain the same. But for other observers (and the system) - balances will change, otherwise there is no point to mix coins.
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msin

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Re: MS Coin for Shuffling Nxt
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2015, 09:11:45 pm »

Coin shuffling documentation is here https://bitbucket.org/JeanLucPicard/nxt/issue/135
Controlable shouldn't be a problem since at the end of the shuffling all currency balances remain the same and due to this I don't think it will clash with any other currency property.

We should track down Timruffling and give him some Nxt as a thank you.  :)
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valarmg

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Re: MS Coin for Shuffling Nxt
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2015, 09:31:34 pm »

Possible to shuffle a whole account, assets and all?
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Riker

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Re: MS Coin for Shuffling Nxt
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2015, 09:34:14 pm »

Coin shuffling documentation is here https://bitbucket.org/JeanLucPicard/nxt/issue/135
Controlable shouldn't be a problem since at the end of the shuffling all currency balances remain the same and due to this I don't think it will clash with any other currency property.

We should track down Timruffling and give him some Nxt as a thank you.  :)

PM me if you need his email address. He even offered is help with code review once we iron all the details.
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