elective-stereophonic
elective-stereophonic
Monetary System documentation singapore
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Latest Nxt Client: Nxt 1.11.15

Pages: 1 2 3 ... 8 [All]

Author Topic: Monetary System documentation  (Read 35776 times)

Riker

  • Core Dev
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +439/-42
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1790
    • View Profile
Monetary System documentation
« on: November 03, 2014, 11:38:34 am »

Folks,

As we are sorting out the final details of the monetary system APIs here is the latest documentation based on the latest and greatest enhancements, hopefully this would clarify some of the questions around this feature:
https://bitbucket.org/JeanLucPicard/nxt/issue/205/monetary-system-documenation

Note that the client side is not fully implemented yet so it would take a while until we release this feature.

The next feature I'm working on is coin shuffling, you can see an initial documentation draft here:
https://bitbucket.org/JeanLucPicard/nxt/issue/135/coin-shuffling-monetary-system

(Updated documentation link)
« Last Edit: December 11, 2014, 09:59:22 am by lyaffe »
Logged
NXT Core Dev
Account: NXT-HBFW-X8TE-WXPW-DZFAG
Public Key: D8311651 Key fingerprint: 0560 443B 035C EE08 0EC0  D2DD 275E 94A7 D831 1651

lucky88888

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +42/-14
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 694
  • NXT-E328-UJDF-KTGH-9C6YQ
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2014, 12:21:59 pm »

awesome! can't wait for the release!
thanks for all your hard works!  :)
Logged
NXT-E328-UJDF-KTGH-9C6YQ
8897013707391239174

Fatih87SK

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +127/-36
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2206
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2014, 12:29:19 pm »

Thanks lyaffe!

I hope all goes well as planned.
Logged

Zahlen

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +26/-4
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 228
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2014, 12:30:19 pm »

(Replying here instead of on Bitbucket for visibility.)

Quote
The currency entity supports several properties. Properties can be mixed and matched in various ways to compose the currency type. The currency type then controls the inner workings of the currency.

This is very cool!

Limiting currency codes to 3 uppercase chars seems like an anachronism. Would longer codes be possible? 5 uppercase chars would still be a quickly readable chunk and would significantly expand the namespace. Especially since deleting a currency sounds very difficult in practice (compare with e.g SuperNET redemption: there are still unredeemed TOKENs right now, FunBotv1 and FunBotReve 'refund buyback' still not complete, despite those tokens not representing anything anymore.)

Minting also seems like an anachronism to me, but it's really cool that PoW verification can be supported this way. I guess it could bring more miners into Nxt.
Logged

achim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +50/-6
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 648
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2014, 12:41:49 pm »

this is very helpful! Now everyone can review the features before they're released and place a feature/change request if needed!
Logged

Riker

  • Core Dev
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +439/-42
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1790
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2014, 12:46:20 pm »

Limiting currency codes to 3 uppercase chars seems like an anachronism. Would longer codes be possible? 5 uppercase chars would still be a quickly readable chunk and would significantly expand the namespace. Especially since deleting a currency sounds very difficult in practice (compare with e.g SuperNET redemption: there are still unredeemed TOKENs right now, FunBotv1 and FunBotReve 'refund buyback' still not complete, despite those tokens not representing anything anymore.)

We actually discussed this quite a bit already and there were opinions both ways. The current code only allows 3 uppercase letters and will reject anything else.
Logged
NXT Core Dev
Account: NXT-HBFW-X8TE-WXPW-DZFAG
Public Key: D8311651 Key fingerprint: 0560 443B 035C EE08 0EC0  D2DD 275E 94A7 D831 1651

Jean-Luc

  • Core Dev
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +816/-81
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1610
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2014, 04:09:00 pm »

We have settled on 3-letter codes for now, and those codes are globally unique. Currency names, which are up to 10 letters long, are also globally unique.

Since inevitably there will be squatters who reserve the more popular codes and names just for speculation, and also to allow deletion and reuse of currency codes, if the issuers realized they created it with the wrong properties, we allow deletion of a currency and optionally issuing a new one with the same code (but different id). To be able to delete a currency, you need to own all existing units of that currency (i.e. need to buy them first). This way a squatter can "sell" the currency code they acquired for speculation by selling all the actual currency units he owns, and a currency issuer can delete and re-issue the currency provided nobody else owns any of it yet (or has returned it back to the issuer).

Logged
GPG key fingerprint: 263A 9EB0 29CF C77A 3D06  FD13 811D 6940 E1E4 240C
NXT-X4LF-9A4G-WN9Z-2R322

bitcoinpaul

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +589/-588
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3093
  • Karmageddon
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2014, 10:51:35 am »

The next feature I'm working on is coin shuffling, you can see an initial documentation draft here:
https://bitbucket.org/JeanLucPicard/nxt/issue/135/coin-shuffling-monetary-system

Quote
Shuffling can be performed using NXT or using monetary system currency units.

True?
Logged
Like my Avatar? Reply now! NXT-M5JR-2L5Z-CFBP-8X7P3

semibaron

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Karma: +16/-7
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 333
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2014, 11:45:24 am »

Will it be possible to include multiple MS currencies and NXT in a single transaction?

For example:
10 X
20 Y
30 NXT
Logged

Riker

  • Core Dev
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +439/-42
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1790
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2014, 12:58:37 pm »

The next feature I'm working on is coin shuffling, you can see an initial documentation draft here:
https://bitbucket.org/JeanLucPicard/nxt/issue/135/coin-shuffling-monetary-system

Quote
Shuffling can be performed using NXT or using monetary system currency units.

True?

Yes, to start the shuffling process you specify the currency code, if currency code is not specified then shuffling works on NXT itself.
Logged
NXT Core Dev
Account: NXT-HBFW-X8TE-WXPW-DZFAG
Public Key: D8311651 Key fingerprint: 0560 443B 035C EE08 0EC0  D2DD 275E 94A7 D831 1651

monsterer

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +18/-2
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 175
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2014, 01:00:58 pm »

What this brief outline document is missing is a 'use cases' section - I'm still personally not clear on what it is useful for apart from cross-chain transfer and insured assets.
Logged
https://metaexchange.info/
NXT<->BTC instant exchange - low spread, no registration

Riker

  • Core Dev
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +439/-42
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1790
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2014, 01:02:13 pm »

Will it be possible to include multiple MS currencies and NXT in a single transaction?

For example:
10 X
20 Y
30 NXT

Are you referring shuffling? If so, shuffling works on the same currency and the same amount for all participants. To understand the process take a look at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=567625.msg6370451#msg6370451
Logged
NXT Core Dev
Account: NXT-HBFW-X8TE-WXPW-DZFAG
Public Key: D8311651 Key fingerprint: 0560 443B 035C EE08 0EC0  D2DD 275E 94A7 D831 1651

bitcoinpaul

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +589/-588
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3093
  • Karmageddon
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2014, 01:05:56 pm »

The next feature I'm working on is coin shuffling, you can see an initial documentation draft here:
https://bitbucket.org/JeanLucPicard/nxt/issue/135/coin-shuffling-monetary-system

Quote
Shuffling can be performed using NXT or using monetary system currency units.

True?

Yes, to start the shuffling process you specify the currency code, if currency code is not specified then shuffling works on NXT itself.

This is porn.
Logged
Like my Avatar? Reply now! NXT-M5JR-2L5Z-CFBP-8X7P3

Riker

  • Core Dev
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +439/-42
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1790
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2014, 01:13:58 pm »

What this brief outline document is missing is a 'use cases' section - I'm still personally not clear on what it is useful for apart from cross-chain transfer and insured assets.

From talking to people about this feature the following use cases came up:
1. Issue a specific currency for a non-nation state entity like a small city, a company, a web site, MMORPG etc, use as a token to represent something.
2. Use currency as a tool to track some real world entity like bank account balances but using a decentralized network.
3. Issue an altcoin without coding and without setting up a network.

But, its really difficult to predict how useful this becomes. NXT is an experiment after all.
Logged
NXT Core Dev
Account: NXT-HBFW-X8TE-WXPW-DZFAG
Public Key: D8311651 Key fingerprint: 0560 443B 035C EE08 0EC0  D2DD 275E 94A7 D831 1651

semibaron

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Karma: +16/-7
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 333
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2014, 01:55:56 pm »

Will it be possible to include multiple MS currencies and NXT in a single transaction?

For example:
10 X
20 Y
30 NXT

Are you referring shuffling? If so, shuffling works on the same currency and the same amount for all participants. To understand the process take a look at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=567625.msg6370451#msg6370451

No, I didn't mean coin shuffling. Just want to know if I can put more than 1 currency in one transaction. I want to send you 10 XCoins AND 5 NXT in a single transaction.
Logged

Riker

  • Core Dev
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +439/-42
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1790
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2014, 02:03:34 pm »

No, I didn't mean coin shuffling. Just want to know if I can put more than 1 currency in one transaction. I want to send you 10 XCoins AND 5 NXT in a single transaction.

No, it complicates implementation since we have to deal with issues like:
How many currencies to allow per transaction to prevent spamming ?
What if the same currency appears twice ?
Calculate inter currency balances to prevent submitting some complex cyclic currency movements etc.
Logged
NXT Core Dev
Account: NXT-HBFW-X8TE-WXPW-DZFAG
Public Key: D8311651 Key fingerprint: 0560 443B 035C EE08 0EC0  D2DD 275E 94A7 D831 1651

Darkhorse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +61/-8
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1016
  • Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2014, 02:31:45 pm »

Please train/develop some experts from the nxt community in  monetary system. It will be very useful later on.
Logged
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬  ▄▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▄  ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬●  nimirum  ●▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
▬▬▬ ◖ENDING CENSHORSIP ONLINE◗  ◖ ICO OPEN NOW◗ ▬▬▬

msin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +138/-18
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1288
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2014, 03:36:15 pm »

Will there be a fee for creating a currency? or Instead of a fee, will there be a minimum of locked Nxt to create a currency, say 1k?
Logged

Riker

  • Core Dev
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +439/-42
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1790
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2014, 03:53:32 pm »

Will there be a fee for creating a currency? or Instead of a fee, will there be a minimum of locked Nxt to create a currency, say 1k?

Same fees as assets i.e. 1000 NXT for currency issuance. 1 NXT for any other transaction.
Logged
NXT Core Dev
Account: NXT-HBFW-X8TE-WXPW-DZFAG
Public Key: D8311651 Key fingerprint: 0560 443B 035C EE08 0EC0  D2DD 275E 94A7 D831 1651

semibaron

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Karma: +16/-7
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 333
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2014, 04:12:08 pm »

No, I didn't mean coin shuffling. Just want to know if I can put more than 1 currency in one transaction. I want to send you 10 XCoins AND 5 NXT in a single transaction.

No, it complicates implementation since we have to deal with issues like:
How many currencies to allow per transaction to prevent spamming ?
What if the same currency appears twice ?
Calculate inter currency balances to prevent submitting some complex cyclic currency movements etc.

What's with 1 Currency and 1 NXT?
Logged

bitcoinpaul

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +589/-588
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3093
  • Karmageddon
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2014, 04:46:07 pm »

What's with 1 Currency and 1 NXT?

lol. accept it ;)
Logged
Like my Avatar? Reply now! NXT-M5JR-2L5Z-CFBP-8X7P3

POPPP

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +33/-1
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 157
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2014, 05:06:34 pm »

Very great Work.
Can I distribute an asset and send MScoin like a dividend ?

Logged

Ludom

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +197/-15
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1733
    • View Profile
    • Plaisir & Valeur d'histoire
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2014, 08:10:53 pm »


If a MScoin is used, it'll never be deleted : it's almost impossible to have every coins back.

17575 different coins are not enough : it's only 17mio of NXT, it's lesser as SuperNET !!! I think in two years every names will be squatted. It's not enough different coins.
In the future is it possible to easily accept new coins with more new symbol ($£€& and numbers) or more letters (4 or 5) ?

---

Thanks for this Monetary System documentation. It's very useful !!!

The ideas are coming in my mind.

Best feature EVER !
Logged
Support us to publish "The first book about Nxt"

Sebastien256

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +169/-24
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2823
  • ^LOOK UP^ = Nxt community!
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2014, 08:22:19 pm »


If a MScoin is used, it'll never be deleted : it's almost impossible to have every coins back.

17575 different coins are not enough : it's only 17mio of NXT, it's lesser as SuperNET !!! I think in two years every names will be squatted. It's not enough different coins.
In the future is it possible to easily accept new coins with more new symbol ($£€& and numbers) or more letters (4 or 5) ?

---

Thanks for this Monetary System documentation. It's very useful !!!

The ideas are coming in my mind.

Best feature EVER !

+1, 17575 is not enough.
Logged
Please drop your ideas concerning Nxt and/or NRS in this topic -> List of feature request for Nxt and/or NRS (with the full list in OP).

msin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +138/-18
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1288
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2014, 09:13:05 pm »


If a MScoin is used, it'll never be deleted : it's almost impossible to have every coins back.

17575 different coins are not enough : it's only 17mio of NXT, it's lesser as SuperNET !!! I think in two years every names will be squatted. It's not enough different coins.
In the future is it possible to easily accept new coins with more new symbol ($£€& and numbers) or more letters (4 or 5) ?

---

Thanks for this Monetary System documentation. It's very useful !!!

The ideas are coming in my mind.

Best feature EVER !

+1, 17575 is not enough.

I think it's enough, if they are unique names, all the good ones will be squatted regardless of how many are available.
Logged

Ludom

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +197/-15
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1733
    • View Profile
    • Plaisir & Valeur d'histoire
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #25 on: November 04, 2014, 09:33:52 pm »

Maybe, it's theoricaly enough but the best and pretty ones will be used quickly.

And if NXT has success and people use MS for :
- Shop Bonus coins
- Crowdfunding
- MMORPG money
etc.

18k different coins are not enough for sure in 10 or 20 years.
Logged
Support us to publish "The first book about Nxt"

2Kool4Skewl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +396/-246
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1897
  • Banned!
  • Because I'm a Genius
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2014, 09:39:00 pm »


If a MScoin is used, it'll never be deleted : it's almost impossible to have every coins back.

17575 different coins are not enough : it's only 17mio of NXT, it's lesser as SuperNET !!! I think in two years every names will be squatted. It's not enough different coins.
In the future is it possible to easily accept new coins with more new symbol ($£€& and numbers) or more letters (4 or 5) ?

---

Thanks for this Monetary System documentation. It's very useful !!!

The ideas are coming in my mind.

Best feature EVER !

+1, 17575 is not enough.

Maybe currency codes shouldn't be unique.
Logged
We are the descendants of Bitcoin.  We are the continuation of the cause it started, but that perished with its centralization.
An economic system is a manifestation of an ideology.  What was lost, we shall reclaim.
"The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks"

monsterer

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +18/-2
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 175
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2014, 10:16:41 pm »

Maybe currency codes shouldn't be unique.

No offence, but that's a horrible idea. It's horrible on the AE, no need to duplicate the error here. :)

Instead, I propose that the system reserve all existing currency symbols, only to be released when the requesting party proves their ownership.
Logged
https://metaexchange.info/
NXT<->BTC instant exchange - low spread, no registration

msin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +138/-18
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1288
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #28 on: November 04, 2014, 10:20:10 pm »

Maybe currency codes shouldn't be unique.

No offence, but that's a horrible idea. It's horrible on the AE, no need to duplicate the error here. :)

Instead, I propose that the system reserve all existing currency symbols, only to be released when the requesting party proves their ownership.

So who claims USD?  who claims BTC?  There are no owners in currency
Logged

coretechs

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Karma: +161/-1
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 435
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #29 on: November 04, 2014, 10:23:07 pm »


If a MScoin is used, it'll never be deleted : it's almost impossible to have every coins back.

17575 different coins are not enough : it's only 17mio of NXT, it's lesser as SuperNET !!! I think in two years every names will be squatted. It's not enough different coins.
In the future is it possible to easily accept new coins with more new symbol ($£€& and numbers) or more letters (4 or 5) ?

---

Thanks for this Monetary System documentation. It's very useful !!!

The ideas are coming in my mind.

Best feature EVER !

+1, 17575 is not enough.


I was just about to post the same thing.  Essentially it will cost 17.5M NXT to effectively disable the feature by squatting all combinations.  I don't think that is far enough out of reach for a malicious entity, at least for the immediate future.

Perhaps make the initial fee 5000 NXT and adjust at a later point in time with the other tx fees?
Logged
https://ardorportal.org - Ardor blockchain explorer | https://nxtportal.org - Nxt blockchain explorer | http://bitcoindoc.com - The Rise and Rise of Bitcoin
ARDOR-T43P-R2K9-8W79-9W2AL | NXT-WY9K-ZMTT-QQTT-3NBL7

monsterer

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +18/-2
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 175
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #30 on: November 04, 2014, 10:26:01 pm »

So who claims USD?  who claims BTC?  There are no owners in currency

BTC can be claimed by the bitcoin foundation, USD can be claimed by the US government - effectively locking it forever, since there can never be a *true* USD currency on this system.
Logged
https://metaexchange.info/
NXT<->BTC instant exchange - low spread, no registration

msin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +138/-18
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1288
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2014, 10:45:04 pm »

So who claims USD?  who claims BTC?  There are no owners in currency

BTC can be claimed by the bitcoin foundation, USD can be claimed by the US government - effectively locking it forever, since there can never be a *true* USD currency on this system.

I don't see the Nxt devs agreeing to anything like that.  I say let's see JL and crew come up with and try to make the best use of it before we all start arguing about implementation.
Logged

2Kool4Skewl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +396/-246
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1897
  • Banned!
  • Because I'm a Genius
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2014, 10:47:06 pm »

So who claims USD?  who claims BTC?  There are no owners in currency

BTC can be claimed by the bitcoin foundation, USD can be claimed by the US government - effectively locking it forever, since there can never be a *true* USD currency on this system.

That sounds centralized.

Non-unique asset/currency codes aren't terrible.  Yes, they open up the way for imposter assets/currencies, but they prevent squatting and limitations on the system.  People need to check the asset/currency id.  This can be made easier via QR codes encoded with the id.
Logged
We are the descendants of Bitcoin.  We are the continuation of the cause it started, but that perished with its centralization.
An economic system is a manifestation of an ideology.  What was lost, we shall reclaim.
"The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks"

VanBreuk

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +361/-19
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2772
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2014, 10:48:12 pm »

So who claims USD?  who claims BTC?  There are no owners in currency

BTC can be claimed by the bitcoin foundation, USD can be claimed by the US government - effectively locking it forever, since there can never be a *true* USD currency on this system.

Even if you could reserve a list with all existing currency symbols, who would collect, verify and process the requests submitted by 'owners'? What requirements would the requests have to comply with? Who "unlocks" the coin, this is - who is the key keeper? The developers? Doesn't look feasible because it requires an authority.
Logged
GPG Fingerprint: B020 D1C1 F289 3B2C 3577  9EAD 455D D175 5913 C7F1

Sebastien256

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +169/-24
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2823
  • ^LOOK UP^ = Nxt community!
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2014, 10:55:00 pm »

is currency symbol is non unique like asset? if they are not unique, then it is fine to only use 3 char symbols.
I hope it will be like asset non uniqueness.
Logged
Please drop your ideas concerning Nxt and/or NRS in this topic -> List of feature request for Nxt and/or NRS (with the full list in OP).

bitcoinpaul

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +589/-588
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3093
  • Karmageddon
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #35 on: November 05, 2014, 08:38:17 am »

Assets non-unique, currencies unique? Devs, tell us about ur thought process. I fear u don't know what u want.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2014, 09:36:00 am by bitcoinpaul »
Logged
Like my Avatar? Reply now! NXT-M5JR-2L5Z-CFBP-8X7P3

monsterer

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +18/-2
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 175
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #36 on: November 05, 2014, 09:29:45 am »

Even if you could reserve a list with all existing currency symbols, who would collect, verify and process the requests submitted by 'owners'? What requirements would the requests have to comply with? Who "unlocks" the coin, this is - who is the key keeper? The developers? Doesn't look feasible because it requires an authority.

Just lock them forever - this system as it stands cannot peg currencies anyway, so you could never create a BTC, for example which tracked the real one.
Logged
https://metaexchange.info/
NXT<->BTC instant exchange - low spread, no registration

Riker

  • Core Dev
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +439/-42
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1790
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #37 on: November 05, 2014, 01:17:40 pm »

is currency symbol is non unique like asset? if they are not unique, then it is fine to only use 3 char symbols.
I hope it will be like asset non uniqueness.

The currency symbol and currency name are unique.
Logged
NXT Core Dev
Account: NXT-HBFW-X8TE-WXPW-DZFAG
Public Key: D8311651 Key fingerprint: 0560 443B 035C EE08 0EC0  D2DD 275E 94A7 D831 1651

Riker

  • Core Dev
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +439/-42
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1790
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #38 on: November 05, 2014, 01:23:41 pm »

Assets non-unique, currencies unique? Devs, tell us about ur thought process. I fear u don't know what u want.

There are arguments both ways. What we especially dislike about the non-unique asset names are the fake assets that cause users to lose their funds.
Also note that currencies can be deleted while assets cannot.

Please consider, that to the best of my knowledge, this is the first time someone is doing something like this in decentralized environment.
I can only assure you that we put a lot of thought into every design decision.


Logged
NXT Core Dev
Account: NXT-HBFW-X8TE-WXPW-DZFAG
Public Key: D8311651 Key fingerprint: 0560 443B 035C EE08 0EC0  D2DD 275E 94A7 D831 1651

bitcoinpaul

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +589/-588
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3093
  • Karmageddon
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #39 on: November 05, 2014, 01:34:04 pm »

What we especially dislike about the non-unique asset names are the fake assets that cause users to lose their funds.

Really? R we playing ping pong or what?
Logged
Like my Avatar? Reply now! NXT-M5JR-2L5Z-CFBP-8X7P3

Riker

  • Core Dev
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +439/-42
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1790
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #40 on: November 05, 2014, 01:37:29 pm »

What we especially dislike about the non-unique asset names are the fake assets that cause users to lose their funds.

Really? R we playing ping pong or what?

I'm not following your logic ...
Logged
NXT Core Dev
Account: NXT-HBFW-X8TE-WXPW-DZFAG
Public Key: D8311651 Key fingerprint: 0560 443B 035C EE08 0EC0  D2DD 275E 94A7 D831 1651

bitcoinpaul

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +589/-588
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3093
  • Karmageddon
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #41 on: November 05, 2014, 01:38:41 pm »

What we especially dislike about the non-unique asset names are the fake assets that cause users to lose their funds.

Really? R we playing ping pong or what?

I'm not following your logic ...

Everyone knew there would be scams and traps with non-unique asset names. What's the difference to MS?
Logged
Like my Avatar? Reply now! NXT-M5JR-2L5Z-CFBP-8X7P3

Darkhorse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +61/-8
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1016
  • Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #42 on: November 06, 2014, 10:23:51 am »

I am a little confused. Is the 1000 nxt to issue a coin on MS System is the locking amount? Or are those 2 separate thing? How will the nxt tx fee works when flexi fee is introduced with MS? any idea on those?

17576 = max number of currencies can be issued. As you know, that is not a very big number. With the cap on only 3 chars and unique, how do you plan to control the currencies registry? This is also defeating the purpose of having a non unique currency name. is 1000 nxt going to stop someone from "booking" a few good name.
Logged
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬  ▄▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▄  ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬●  nimirum  ●▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
▬▬▬ ◖ENDING CENSHORSIP ONLINE◗  ◖ ICO OPEN NOW◗ ▬▬▬

Riker

  • Core Dev
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +439/-42
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1790
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #43 on: November 06, 2014, 10:51:55 am »

I am a little confused. Is the 1000 nxt to issue a coin on MS System is the locking amount? Or are those 2 separate thing? How will the nxt tx fee works when flexi fee is introduced with MS? any idea on those?

17576 = max number of currencies can be issued. As you know, that is not a very big number. With the cap on only 3 chars and unique, how do you plan to control the currencies registry? This is also defeating the purpose of having a non unique currency name. is 1000 nxt going to stop someone from "booking" a few good name.

You are right,  we are reconsidering the issue of currency code length and fees. we'll post further updates once we decide.
Logged
NXT Core Dev
Account: NXT-HBFW-X8TE-WXPW-DZFAG
Public Key: D8311651 Key fingerprint: 0560 443B 035C EE08 0EC0  D2DD 275E 94A7 D831 1651

Darkhorse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +61/-8
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1016
  • Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #44 on: November 06, 2014, 10:55:16 am »

I am a little confused. Is the 1000 nxt to issue a coin on MS System is the locking amount? Or are those 2 separate thing? How will the nxt tx fee works when flexi fee is introduced with MS? any idea on those?

17576 = max number of currencies can be issued. As you know, that is not a very big number. With the cap on only 3 chars and unique, how do you plan to control the currencies registry? This is also defeating the purpose of having a non unique currency name. is 1000 nxt going to stop someone from "booking" a few good name.

You are right,  we are reconsidering the issue of currency code length and fees. we'll post further updates once we decide.

Good man.
Logged
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬  ▄▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▄  ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬●  nimirum  ●▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
▬▬▬ ◖ENDING CENSHORSIP ONLINE◗  ◖ ICO OPEN NOW◗ ▬▬▬

Sebastien256

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +169/-24
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2823
  • ^LOOK UP^ = Nxt community!
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #45 on: November 06, 2014, 12:33:02 pm »

What we especially dislike about the non-unique asset names are the fake assets that cause users to lose their funds.

Really? R we playing ping pong or what?

I'm not following your logic ...

Everyone knew there would be scams and traps with non-unique asset names. What's the difference to MS?

Yeah, MS should be like asset and permit non unique name. This has been discuss and the past and I'm very happy the way AE exchange is working now. You need to find the asset id from a trust source, it should be the same for the MS.
Logged
Please drop your ideas concerning Nxt and/or NRS in this topic -> List of feature request for Nxt and/or NRS (with the full list in OP).

v39453

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +12/-2
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 155
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #46 on: November 06, 2014, 12:55:53 pm »

What we especially dislike about the non-unique asset names are the fake assets that cause users to lose their funds.

Really? R we playing ping pong or what?

I'm not following your logic ...

Everyone knew there would be scams and traps with non-unique asset names. What's the difference to MS?

The difference is that it is a chance to make a new decision. There is no need to repeat a bad decision.
Logged

Sebastien256

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +169/-24
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2823
  • ^LOOK UP^ = Nxt community!
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #47 on: November 06, 2014, 01:02:20 pm »

What we especially dislike about the non-unique asset names are the fake assets that cause users to lose their funds.

Really? R we playing ping pong or what?

I'm not following your logic ...

Everyone knew there would be scams and traps with non-unique asset names. What's the difference to MS?

The difference is that it is a chance to make a new decision. There is no need to repeat a bad decision.

fake name will also be present even if name are unique. This will not stop the scammer, but instead promote squattering.

Making name unique  simply limit the system. This is not good imo.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2014, 01:06:07 pm by Sebastien256 »
Logged
Please drop your ideas concerning Nxt and/or NRS in this topic -> List of feature request for Nxt and/or NRS (with the full list in OP).

monsterer

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +18/-2
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 175
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #48 on: November 06, 2014, 01:43:29 pm »

fake name will also be present even if name are unique. This will not stop the scammer, but instead promote squattering.

Making name unique  simply limit the system. This is not good imo.

Squatting is a million times better than scamming. Scamming effects the currency as a whole, whereas squatting only affects a tiny part of it.
Logged
https://metaexchange.info/
NXT<->BTC instant exchange - low spread, no registration

Sebastien256

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +169/-24
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2823
  • ^LOOK UP^ = Nxt community!
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #49 on: November 06, 2014, 01:45:06 pm »

fake name will also be present even if name are unique. This will not stop the scammer, but instead promote squattering.

Making name unique  simply limit the system. This is not good imo.

Squatting is a million times better than scamming. Scamming effects the currency as a whole, whereas squatting only affects a tiny part of it.

What I'm trying to say is that unique name won't stop the scammer.
Logged
Please drop your ideas concerning Nxt and/or NRS in this topic -> List of feature request for Nxt and/or NRS (with the full list in OP).

bitcoinpaul

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +589/-588
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3093
  • Karmageddon
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #50 on: November 06, 2014, 02:16:32 pm »

The difference is that it is a chance to make a new decision. There is no need to repeat a bad decision.

if this is the reason behind this i want to hear it from a core dev.
Logged
Like my Avatar? Reply now! NXT-M5JR-2L5Z-CFBP-8X7P3

monsterer

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +18/-2
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 175
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #51 on: November 06, 2014, 06:32:39 pm »

What I'm trying to say is that unique name won't stop the scammer.

It'll stop them from performing that particular scam, though. The AE is already rife with scam assets with duplicate names, I agree, theres no need to repeat that mistake here.
Logged
https://metaexchange.info/
NXT<->BTC instant exchange - low spread, no registration

Sebastien256

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +169/-24
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2823
  • ^LOOK UP^ = Nxt community!
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #52 on: November 06, 2014, 06:53:33 pm »

What I'm trying to say is that unique name won't stop the scammer.

It'll stop them from performing that particular scam, though. The AE is already rife with scam assets with duplicate names, I agree, theres no need to repeat that mistake here.

I'll turn the question around, why limiting Nxt with a fix number of possible currency? The only argument I saw so far is to babysit poor investors that do not do their own diligence? Seriously, scammer can't be avoid in this decentralized world. I am the only one to think that this is problematic to limit Nxt? Please people if you think it is problematic then state your opinion in here.

EDIT: When I think "fix number of currency", it let me think as a similiar case: "the Millennium bug"! You know how this bug had cost to society?

For your info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_2000_problem

You devs are designing an app (Nxt MS) that you don't even know in full what will be it future application. I believe it is not the time to already put limitation into the system. That might turn out to be a bad design in the future.

EDIT2: It should be the job of the client and service on top of Nxt to protect people from scam, it should not be the job of the Nxt core to do that. Please build an application where only sky is the limit. I'm very surprise that we have this discussion once again.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2014, 07:20:55 pm by Sebastien256 »
Logged
Please drop your ideas concerning Nxt and/or NRS in this topic -> List of feature request for Nxt and/or NRS (with the full list in OP).

monsterer

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +18/-2
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 175
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #53 on: November 06, 2014, 07:31:07 pm »

I'll turn the question around, why limiting Nxt with a fix number of possible currency? The only argument I saw so far is to babysit poor

They've already limited the possible number of currencies with the three letter symbol name.

Quote
EDIT2: It should be the job of the client and service on top of Nxt to protect people from scam, it should not be the job of the Nxt core to do that. Please build an application where only sky is the limit. I'm very surprise that we have this discussion once again.

Cryptocurrencies are famed for being safe havens for scammers, by allowing duplicate currencies/assets you are basically giving them free rain to carry on doing that forever.

If newcomers get scammed, they get a bad impression of the currency system, the NXT community and NXT in general. This is very low hanging fruit for a scammmer, why give them the option?
Logged
https://metaexchange.info/
NXT<->BTC instant exchange - low spread, no registration

Sebastien256

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +169/-24
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2823
  • ^LOOK UP^ = Nxt community!
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #54 on: November 06, 2014, 07:35:39 pm »

I'll turn the question around, why limiting Nxt with a fix number of possible currency? The only argument I saw so far is to babysit poor

They've already limited the possible number of currencies with the three letter symbol name.

Quote
EDIT2: It should be the job of the client and service on top of Nxt to protect people from scam, it should not be the job of the Nxt core to do that. Please build an application where only sky is the limit. I'm very surprise that we have this discussion once again.

Cryptocurrencies are famed for being safe havens for scammers, by allowing duplicate currencies/assets you are basically giving them free rain to carry on doing that forever.

If newcomers get scammed, they get a bad impression of the currency system, the NXT community and NXT in general. This is very low hanging fruit for a scammmer, why give them the option?

I'm sorry, but I think you don't see far enought in the future. It is of my opinion that in 5 years, 90% of the users won't even know that they are using Nxt or Nxt MS. The people that will need to use Nxt will know and understand how to use it. We just need to build the structure arount Nxt so that it will be easy to use, client service, etc... Please don't put limitation in the core.

Quote
They've already limited the possible number of currencies with the three letter symbol name.

It is not limited if you can create as much of you want of those 3 letter symbol coins (non-uniqueness) .
Logged
Please drop your ideas concerning Nxt and/or NRS in this topic -> List of feature request for Nxt and/or NRS (with the full list in OP).

Riker

  • Core Dev
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +439/-42
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1790
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #55 on: November 06, 2014, 07:36:15 pm »

Here is our new proposal:
1. Unique currency code and currency name and uniqueness is also enforced between codes and names to avoid confusion.
2. Currency code is all upper case between 3 and 5 characters, the name "NXT" is reserved, this provides 26^3 + 26^4 + 26^5 - 1 = 12355927 possibilities
3. Currency name is alphanumeric and not shorter than the currency code.
4. Issuance fee depends on the currency code length, the shorter the length the higher the fee. We consider two options of code length to issuance fee mapping:
(a) The "decimal": 3 - 10000 ,  4 - 1000 , 5 - 100 (rational: simple to remember)
(b) The "twenty fiver": 3 - 25000 , 4 - 1000 , 5 - 40 (rational: 26 alphabet letters but 25 divides better)
In case you already issued a currency and would like to reissue it with different properties you always pay the lower fee.
Logged
NXT Core Dev
Account: NXT-HBFW-X8TE-WXPW-DZFAG
Public Key: D8311651 Key fingerprint: 0560 443B 035C EE08 0EC0  D2DD 275E 94A7 D831 1651

Sebastien256

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +169/-24
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2823
  • ^LOOK UP^ = Nxt community!
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #56 on: November 06, 2014, 08:18:40 pm »

Here is our new proposal:
1. Unique currency code and currency name and uniqueness is also enforced between codes and names to avoid confusion.
2. Currency code is all upper case between 3 and 5 characters, the name "NXT" is reserved, this provides 26^3 + 26^4 + 26^5 - 1 = 12355927 possibilities
3. Currency name is alphanumeric and not shorter than the currency code.
4. Issuance fee depends on the currency code length, the shorter the length the higher the fee. We consider two options of code length to issuance fee mapping:
(a) The "decimal": 3 - 10000 ,  4 - 1000 , 5 - 100 (rational: simple to remember)
(b) The "twenty fiver": 3 - 25000 , 4 - 1000 , 5 - 40 (rational: 26 alphabet letters but 25 divides better)
In case you already issued a currency and would like to reissue it with different properties you always pay the lower fee.

Altough it took sometime to understand. I believe this system is much better than the first one propose.
@lyaffe
A) In the case of need, would it be easy to extend the Nxt core to more than 5 chars in the future?
B) Is the reissuing of a currency would be limit to the first account that create the first currency code? If the case, would it be possible to make this right transferable to another Nxt account in the case the account is compromise?
« Last Edit: November 06, 2014, 08:21:13 pm by Sebastien256 »
Logged
Please drop your ideas concerning Nxt and/or NRS in this topic -> List of feature request for Nxt and/or NRS (with the full list in OP).

Riker

  • Core Dev
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +439/-42
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1790
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #57 on: November 06, 2014, 08:58:33 pm »

A) In the case of need, would it be easy to extend the Nxt core to more than 5 chars in the future?
B) Is the reissuing of a currency would be limit to the first account that create the first currency code? If the case, would it be possible to make this right transferable to another Nxt account in the case the account is compromise?

A) Changing the currency code validation criteria will require a fork since the peers still running the old version will reject the longer currency codes.
B) In order to delete or re-issue a currency you must be the owner of all available currency units.
Logged
NXT Core Dev
Account: NXT-HBFW-X8TE-WXPW-DZFAG
Public Key: D8311651 Key fingerprint: 0560 443B 035C EE08 0EC0  D2DD 275E 94A7 D831 1651

msin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +138/-18
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1288
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #58 on: November 06, 2014, 10:08:25 pm »

Here is our new proposal:
1. Unique currency code and currency name and uniqueness is also enforced between codes and names to avoid confusion.
2. Currency code is all upper case between 3 and 5 characters, the name "NXT" is reserved, this provides 26^3 + 26^4 + 26^5 - 1 = 12355927 possibilities
3. Currency name is alphanumeric and not shorter than the currency code.
4. Issuance fee depends on the currency code length, the shorter the length the higher the fee. We consider two options of code length to issuance fee mapping:
(a) The "decimal": 3 - 10000 ,  4 - 1000 , 5 - 100 (rational: simple to remember)
(b) The "twenty fiver": 3 - 25000 , 4 - 1000 , 5 - 40 (rational: 26 alphabet letters but 25 divides better)
In case you already issued a currency and would like to reissue it with different properties you always pay the lower fee.

Sounds great, stick to it and let's test on testnet!
Logged

durerus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +106/-8
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 527
  • user-owner
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #59 on: November 06, 2014, 10:29:47 pm »

I am so excited what MS will be. It is going to be very interesting how people will make use of it. Thanks to the devs for their hard work!  :)

Edit: And PLEASE no uniqueness! Let's stay consistent here.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2014, 10:40:56 pm by durerus »
Logged

gs02xzz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +56/-12
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1101
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #60 on: November 06, 2014, 10:47:17 pm »

Here is our new proposal:
1. Unique currency code and currency name and uniqueness is also enforced between codes and names to avoid confusion.
2. Currency code is all upper case between 3 and 5 characters, the name "NXT" is reserved, this provides 26^3 + 26^4 + 26^5 - 1 = 12355927 possibilities
3. Currency name is alphanumeric and not shorter than the currency code.
4. Issuance fee depends on the currency code length, the shorter the length the higher the fee. We consider two options of code length to issuance fee mapping:
(a) The "decimal": 3 - 10000 ,  4 - 1000 , 5 - 100 (rational: simple to remember)
(b) The "twenty fiver": 3 - 25000 , 4 - 1000 , 5 - 40 (rational: 26 alphabet letters but 25 divides better)
In case you already issued a currency and would like to reissue it with different properties you always pay the lower fee.

Great!
Logged
Nxt Mission is to commercialize the crypto technology and build new commerce and society.

NxtMinnow

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +19/-7
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 110
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #61 on: November 06, 2014, 11:11:26 pm »

For maximum potential compatibility with current global payment standards, should NXT MS stick to 3-alphanumeric codes for currencies as per ISO 4217 standards?
Logged

Darkhorse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +61/-8
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1016
  • Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #62 on: November 07, 2014, 12:51:20 am »

What does 4 a) and 4 b) means?
Logged
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬  ▄▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▄  ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬●  nimirum  ●▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
▬▬▬ ◖ENDING CENSHORSIP ONLINE◗  ◖ ICO OPEN NOW◗ ▬▬▬

Riker

  • Core Dev
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +439/-42
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1790
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #63 on: November 07, 2014, 07:55:29 am »

What does 4 a) and 4 b) means?

To clarify, our recommendation is to go with the following fee structure:
Currency Code   Fee
3 Letters25000 NXT
4 Letters1000 NXT
5 Letters40 NXT
Re-issue40 NXT


Logged
NXT Core Dev
Account: NXT-HBFW-X8TE-WXPW-DZFAG
Public Key: D8311651 Key fingerprint: 0560 443B 035C EE08 0EC0  D2DD 275E 94A7 D831 1651

Riker

  • Core Dev
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +439/-42
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1790
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #64 on: November 07, 2014, 07:57:04 am »

For maximum potential compatibility with current global payment standards, should NXT MS stick to 3-alphanumeric codes for currencies as per ISO 4217 standards?

Please read the full discussion and let us know if you have further questions.
Logged
NXT Core Dev
Account: NXT-HBFW-X8TE-WXPW-DZFAG
Public Key: D8311651 Key fingerprint: 0560 443B 035C EE08 0EC0  D2DD 275E 94A7 D831 1651

Riker

  • Core Dev
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +439/-42
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1790
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #65 on: November 07, 2014, 08:00:38 am »

I am so excited what MS will be. It is going to be very interesting how people will make use of it. Thanks to the devs for their hard work!  :)

Edit: And PLEASE no uniqueness! Let's stay consistent here.

We respect your feedback but we'll use unique currency code and name. This has been decided already.
Logged
NXT Core Dev
Account: NXT-HBFW-X8TE-WXPW-DZFAG
Public Key: D8311651 Key fingerprint: 0560 443B 035C EE08 0EC0  D2DD 275E 94A7 D831 1651

Ludom

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +197/-15
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1733
    • View Profile
    • Plaisir & Valeur d'histoire
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #66 on: November 07, 2014, 11:22:03 am »

What does 4 a) and 4 b) means?

To clarify, our recommendation is to go with the following fee structure:
Currency Code   Fee
3 Letters25000 NXT
4 Letters1000 NXT
5 Letters40 NXT
Re-issue40 NXT

Thanks so much for this smart proposition.

I think it's a great one.
Logged
Support us to publish "The first book about Nxt"

Darkhorse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +61/-8
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1016
  • Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #67 on: November 07, 2014, 12:49:16 pm »

What does 4 a) and 4 b) means?

To clarify, our recommendation is to go with the following fee structure:
Currency Code   Fee
3 Letters25000 NXT
4 Letters1000 NXT
5 Letters40 NXT
Re-issue40 NXT

Is this fee different from locking nxt, lyaffe?
Logged
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬  ▄▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▄  ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬●  nimirum  ●▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
▬▬▬ ◖ENDING CENSHORSIP ONLINE◗  ◖ ICO OPEN NOW◗ ▬▬▬

gs02xzz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +56/-12
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1101
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #68 on: November 07, 2014, 05:19:13 pm »

We respect your feedback but we'll use unique currency code and name. This has been decided already.

Thanks!
Logged
Nxt Mission is to commercialize the crypto technology and build new commerce and society.

Riker

  • Core Dev
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +439/-42
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1790
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #69 on: November 07, 2014, 09:01:54 pm »

Is this fee different from locking nxt, lyaffe?

Yes, fee is one expense related to currency issuance, however when referring to locking NXT we refer to reseravable currency as explained in the documentation:
"RESERVABLE - means that the currency units are not issued immediately. Instead the currency issuer sets a block height at which the currency will be issued and a limit of NXT needed in order to issue the currency. Currency "founders" then lock their NXT to reserve their currency stake. If the amount of NXT needed in order to issue the currency is not reserved before reaching the block height the issuance is cancelled and funds are returned minus fees. If the required reserve is allocated, the currency is issued and units are split between founders according to their proportional stake of invested NXT. In case of rounding, leftovers are sent to the issuer account. Reservable currency can be used as crowd funding tool where the issued currency units serve as stake in the issued currency."
Logged
NXT Core Dev
Account: NXT-HBFW-X8TE-WXPW-DZFAG
Public Key: D8311651 Key fingerprint: 0560 443B 035C EE08 0EC0  D2DD 275E 94A7 D831 1651

Pouncer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Karma: +30/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 65
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #70 on: November 07, 2014, 10:55:17 pm »

Currency "founders" then lock their NXT to reserve their currency stake. If the amount of NXT needed in order to issue the currency is not reserved before reaching the block height the issuance is cancelled and funds are returned minus fees. If the required reserve is allocated, the currency is issued and units are split between founders according to their proportional stake of invested NXT.

What happens when MS becomes very popular and a basket of currencies have been issued with a total reserve of 900 Million NXT and all reserved NXT have been locked? Since locked NXT are excluded from effective balance, we're left with only 100M NXT effective balance for forging and securing the network. What happens if all NXT have been locked?
Logged

ChuckOne

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +293/-17
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3450
  • ☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #71 on: November 07, 2014, 11:28:36 pm »

What happens when MS becomes very popular and a basket of currencies have been issued with a total reserve of 900 Million NXT and all reserved NXT have been locked? Since locked NXT are excluded from effective balance, we're left with only 100M NXT effective balance for forging and securing the network. What happens if all NXT have been locked?

Good point. Reducing the total effective balance so it compensated for the reduction would help for the 100M NXT case. For 0 NXTs left, well, that would pose a problem.

@Lior
Do you think disabling the combination 'reservable - mintable' and 'reservable - not-claimable' would help here? That should be remove the cases where people cannot get back their locked NXTs. So, in case of too low amount of NXT, people can claim their NXTs and keep the system running.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2014, 11:32:24 pm by ChuckOne »
Logged

Pouncer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Karma: +30/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 65
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #72 on: November 07, 2014, 11:43:25 pm »

What happens when MS becomes very popular and a basket of currencies have been issued with a total reserve of 900 Million NXT and all reserved NXT have been locked? Since locked NXT are excluded from effective balance, we're left with only 100M NXT effective balance for forging and securing the network. What happens if all NXT have been locked?

Good point. Reducing the total effective balance so it compensated for the reduction would help for the 100M NXT case. For 0 NXTs left, well, that would pose a problem.

@Lior
Do you think disabling the combination 'reservable - mintable' and 'reservable - not-claimable' would help here?

If that happens before TF full implementation, a whale or attacker with as little as 25M NXT will be able to compromise the NXT network (and all the currencies built on top of it). This is assuming less than half of remaining effective balance actually forge, as is the case now.

Also, since MS is designed as a second phase of decentralizing (wealth distribution), attempting to reduce relative value of "inactive NXT holders" vis a vis new MS currencies, this scenario of ending up with a large proportion of NXT locked is quite possible. Help us understand how security of NXT network will not be compromised.
Logged

gs02xzz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +56/-12
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1101
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #73 on: November 08, 2014, 02:23:19 am »

I assume that long before MS can become that popular, the TF and ecomny clusters will be able to be in place already to take care of that issue. It seems that the popularity of MS will be equal to the growth of economy clusters.
Logged
Nxt Mission is to commercialize the crypto technology and build new commerce and society.

Riker

  • Core Dev
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +439/-42
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1790
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #74 on: November 08, 2014, 08:24:06 am »

What happens when MS becomes very popular and a basket of currencies have been issued with a total reserve of 900 Million NXT and all reserved NXT have been locked? Since locked NXT are excluded from effective balance, we're left with only 100M NXT effective balance for forging and securing the network. What happens if all NXT have been locked?

Its a good point and we need to think about it. We already have this problem to lesser extent whenever we lock unconfirmed balance, for example with the asset exchange. what if people place bid orders which are not executed yet for 900M this also locks NXT.

I think that if only 100M NXT are left people would have better chance of forging and therefore they have incentive to claim their currency reserves or exchange the currency back to NXT but this does not prevent denial of service.
Logged
NXT Core Dev
Account: NXT-HBFW-X8TE-WXPW-DZFAG
Public Key: D8311651 Key fingerprint: 0560 443B 035C EE08 0EC0  D2DD 275E 94A7 D831 1651

Riker

  • Core Dev
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +439/-42
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1790
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #75 on: November 08, 2014, 08:33:06 am »

@Lior
Do you think disabling the combination 'reservable - mintable' and 'reservable - not-claimable' would help here? That should be remove the cases where people cannot get back their locked NXTs. So, in case of too low amount of NXT, people can claim their NXTs and keep the system running.

Reserveable/mintable but not claimable is Ok since the only way to convert currency units to NXT is using exchange and the market can give the currency a value factoring in the number of minted units for inflation.

In my view the most problematic property is claimable since it allows holders to claim their currency units for NXT at any given time for a known rate.
This means that whoever mints units can claim them immediately for NXT they did not lock. So the combination of claimable/mintable should be prevented.
Logged
NXT Core Dev
Account: NXT-HBFW-X8TE-WXPW-DZFAG
Public Key: D8311651 Key fingerprint: 0560 443B 035C EE08 0EC0  D2DD 275E 94A7 D831 1651

ChuckOne

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +293/-17
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3450
  • ☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #76 on: November 08, 2014, 09:25:59 am »

@Lior
Do you think disabling the combination 'reservable - mintable' and 'reservable - not-claimable' would help here? That should be remove the cases where people cannot get back their locked NXTs. So, in case of too low amount of NXT, people can claim their NXTs and keep the system running.

Reserveable/mintable but not claimable is Ok since the only way to convert currency units to NXT is using exchange and the market can give the currency a value factoring in the number of minted units for inflation.

In my view the most problematic property is claimable since it allows holders to claim their currency units for NXT at any given time for a known rate.
This means that whoever mints units can claim them immediately for NXT they did not lock. So the combination of claimable/mintable should be prevented.

The point was to avoid situations where NXTs get lost (reservable but not claimable). This would be new to Nxt and I am not a fan of it.
Logged

ChuckOne

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +293/-17
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3450
  • ☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #77 on: November 08, 2014, 09:29:22 am »

What happens when MS becomes very popular and a basket of currencies have been issued with a total reserve of 900 Million NXT and all reserved NXT have been locked? Since locked NXT are excluded from effective balance, we're left with only 100M NXT effective balance for forging and securing the network. What happens if all NXT have been locked?

Its a good point and we need to think about it. We already have this problem to lesser extent whenever we lock unconfirmed balance, for example with the asset exchange. what if people place bid orders which are not executed yet for 900M this also locks NXT.

I think that if only 100M NXT are left people would have better chance of forging and therefore they have incentive to claim their currency reserves or exchange the currency back to NXT but this does not prevent denial of service.

People can forge even with 1000 NXT that is distributed over 100 people.
Logged

Pouncer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Karma: +30/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 65
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #78 on: November 08, 2014, 09:47:40 am »


I think that if only 100M NXT are left people would have better chance of forging and therefore they have incentive to claim their currency reserves or exchange the currency back to NXT but this does not prevent denial of service.

1. Why would holders of MS currencies claim back their NXT if by then these currencies will be worth more than the locked NXT?
2. If or when we reach that level, most transactions will likely be done in MS currencies, and since tx fees will be in MS currencies, what will be the incentive to forge NXT?
3. By then, remaining poor sleeping NXT whales will not be incentivised to continue securing the network for the rich MS whales (who don't have to do any forging/securing) ???

People can forge even with 1000 NXT that is distributed over 100 people.
With so few NXT (effective balance) left, wouldn't this make the network easy to attack?
« Last Edit: November 08, 2014, 09:51:46 am by Pouncer »
Logged

ChuckOne

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +293/-17
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3450
  • ☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #79 on: November 08, 2014, 10:00:49 am »

1. Why would holders of MS currencies claim back their NXT if by then these currencies will be worth more than the locked NXT?
2. If or when we reach that level, most transactions will likely be done in MS currencies, and since tx fees will be in MS currencies, what will be the incentive to forge NXT?
3. By then, remaining poor sleeping NXT whales will not be incentivised to continue securing the network for the rich MS whales (who don't have to do any forging/securing) ???


To clear up some statements and facts:

1) fees will always be in NXT
2) Whales are and will remain the backbone of securing the Nxt blockchain. They will always be able to sell NXT (the fuel that is necessary to have transactions verified) to users in exchange for currencies that they then can use to buy needed goods and services.
Logged

ChuckOne

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +293/-17
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3450
  • ☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #80 on: November 08, 2014, 10:10:12 am »

Its a good point and we need to think about it. We already have this problem to lesser extent whenever we lock unconfirmed balance, for example with the asset exchange. what if people place bid orders which are not executed yet for 900M this also locks NXT.

How was this solved there?

We seem to need to deal with changing the total amount of effective NXTs as reserving (reduction) and claiming (increase) effect the total amount of NXTs.
Logged

Pouncer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Karma: +30/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 65
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #81 on: November 08, 2014, 10:11:07 am »

1. Why would holders of MS currencies claim back their NXT if by then these currencies will be worth more than the locked NXT?
2. If or when we reach that level, most transactions will likely be done in MS currencies, and since tx fees will be in MS currencies, what will be the incentive to forge NXT?
3. By then, remaining poor sleeping NXT whales will not be incentivised to continue securing the network for the rich MS whales (who don't have to do any forging/securing) ???


To clear up some statements and facts:

1) fees will always be in NXT
2) Whales are and will remain the backbone of securing the Nxt blockchain. They will always be able to sell NXT (the fuel that is necessary to have transactions verified) to users in exchange for currencies that they then can use to buy needed goods and services.


I hope your above 2 statements are correct, because they contradict links I referred to in the points I raised.
Logged

v39453

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +12/-2
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 155
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #82 on: November 08, 2014, 10:17:21 am »

What happens when MS becomes very popular and a basket of currencies have been issued with a total reserve of 900 Million NXT and all reserved NXT have been locked? Since locked NXT are excluded from effective balance, we're left with only 100M NXT effective balance for forging and securing the network. What happens if all NXT have been locked?

Its a good point and we need to think about it. We already have this problem to lesser extent whenever we lock unconfirmed balance, for example with the asset exchange. what if people place bid orders which are not executed yet for 900M this also locks NXT.

I think that if only 100M NXT are left people would have better chance of forging and therefore they have incentive to claim their currency reserves or exchange the currency back to NXT but this does not prevent denial of service.

People can forge even with 1000 NXT that is distributed over 100 people.

1000 NXT is only $20 with current prices. How can that secure the entire network?

Also what happens when the market cap of a MS currency rises above NXT, for example to $100 million. Now the $100 million is secured with $20 million of NXT. The MS currency could be attacked, which would bring the price down. This mechanism is not as "smooth" as the mechanism where the rising price of NXT makes the network more secure. Somehow MS seems to go against the principle of Proof of Stake.
 
Logged

ChuckOne

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +293/-17
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3450
  • ☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #83 on: November 08, 2014, 10:20:13 am »

I hope your above 2 statements are correct, because they contradict links I referred to in the points I raised.

cfb,

How does the tx for these sub currency work? Let's say X currency is created and i did a transaction with that currency. Will the tx be in NXT or X currency? Let's say the worst case scenario, all the existing nxt's has been locked with a multiple new currencies X,Y,Z etc.  (there will be no more  nxt exist outside the system), So imo the tx would not be in nxt but individual currencies. Is the nxt platform capable enough to handle all the different types of currency txs at one go?

In X. Yes, capable.

Okay, CfB is not referring to fee.


Would be interesting to know who is that whale that sells NXT right before 1.3...

Yesterday a lead developer of NXT was putting down whales, said he will launch a new currency, and let NXT go down in value.

Same as a CEO putting down the largest investors, because they don't work actively in the company, or do not donate stock to grow the company, and saying he will launch a new company, and let the current company go down in value.

When confronted with the fact that (large) investors already add value by simply remaining invested in the company, his defense was that it was the original plan all along and large investors are free to leave ...

You know how considerate CfB sometimes can be. MS will create opportunities for whales to invest in currencies that they deem as good and future-proof. If they want to go back, they can simply claim their NXTs (if the currency is claimable).


I would like to stress this again:

NXT will be fuel currency of the Nxt ecosystem. People will pay NXT to forgers (as they do now) in order to get transactions verified. Forgers will sell NXT to people in exchange for currencies. So, there will be a market that determines the price of NXT.
Logged

ChuckOne

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +293/-17
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3450
  • ☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #84 on: November 08, 2014, 10:23:37 am »

What happens when MS becomes very popular and a basket of currencies have been issued with a total reserve of 900 Million NXT and all reserved NXT have been locked? Since locked NXT are excluded from effective balance, we're left with only 100M NXT effective balance for forging and securing the network. What happens if all NXT have been locked?

Its a good point and we need to think about it. We already have this problem to lesser extent whenever we lock unconfirmed balance, for example with the asset exchange. what if people place bid orders which are not executed yet for 900M this also locks NXT.

I think that if only 100M NXT are left people would have better chance of forging and therefore they have incentive to claim their currency reserves or exchange the currency back to NXT but this does not prevent denial of service.

People can forge even with 1000 NXT that is distributed over 100 people.

1000 NXT is only $20 with current prices. How can that secure the entire network?

Also what happens when the market cap of a MS currency rises above NXT, for example to $100 million. Now the $100 million is secured with $20 million of NXT. The MS currency could be attacked, which would bring the price down. This mechanism is not as "smooth" as the mechanism where the rising price of NXT makes the network more secure. Somehow MS seems to go against the principle of Proof of Stake.

Why should 1000 NXTs only cost $20?

1,000,000,000 NXTs costs ¢2 each with 1,000,000,000 NXTs in existence.

The price of a single NXT will heavily increase if there were only 1000 NXTs in existence.
Logged

Pouncer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Karma: +30/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 65
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #85 on: November 08, 2014, 10:55:31 am »


ChuckOne, thank you for the clarifications. I'm not good at understanding cryptic responses.

I hope your above 2 statements are correct, because they contradict links I referred to in the points I raised.

cfb,

How does the tx for these sub currency work? Let's say X currency is created and i did a transaction with that currency. Will the tx be in NXT or X currency? Let's say the worst case scenario, all the existing nxt's has been locked with a multiple new currencies X,Y,Z etc.  (there will be no more  nxt exist outside the system), So imo the tx would not be in nxt but individual currencies. Is the nxt platform capable enough to handle all the different types of currency txs at one go?

In X. Yes, capable.

Okay, CfB is not referring to fee.


Would be interesting to know who is that whale that sells NXT right before 1.3...

Yesterday a lead developer of NXT was putting down whales, said he will launch a new currency, and let NXT go down in value.

Same as a CEO putting down the largest investors, because they don't work actively in the company, or do not donate stock to grow the company, and saying he will launch a new company, and let the current company go down in value.

When confronted with the fact that (large) investors already add value by simply remaining invested in the company, his defense was that it was the original plan all along and large investors are free to leave ...

You know how considerate CfB sometimes can be. MS will create opportunities for whales to invest in currencies that they deem as good and future-proof. If they want to go back, they can simply claim their NXTs (if the currency is claimable).


I would like to stress this again:

NXT will be fuel currency of the Nxt ecosystem. People will pay NXT to forgers (as they do now) in order to get transactions verified. Forgers will sell NXT to people in exchange for currencies. So, there will be a market that determines the price of NXT.
Logged

Jean-Luc

  • Core Dev
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +816/-81
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1610
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #86 on: November 08, 2014, 10:57:57 am »

We already have this problem to lesser extent whenever we lock unconfirmed balance, for example with the asset exchange.
I don't think so, guaranteed balance used for forging is calculated based on confirmed balance. Bids and other transactions that reserve a balance (e.g. DGS purchase) do it against unconfirmed balance only.
Logged
GPG key fingerprint: 263A 9EB0 29CF C77A 3D06  FD13 811D 6940 E1E4 240C
NXT-X4LF-9A4G-WN9Z-2R322

ChuckOne

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +293/-17
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3450
  • ☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #87 on: November 08, 2014, 11:03:08 am »

ChuckOne, thank you for the clarifications. I'm not good at understanding cryptic responses.

You are always welcome. :)
Logged

Darkhorse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +61/-8
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1016
  • Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #88 on: November 08, 2014, 11:53:14 am »

Quote
If they want to go back, they can simply claim their NXTs (if the currency is claimable).

This is what i understood as well. Once locked, one can only unlock it back but cannot relock them. This makes sense when a currency issued on MS increases this value, you can unlock certain amount to reduce the value of that MS currency to make it standalone or independant.

But what i am interested to know is how flexible tx will work with MS.
Logged
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬  ▄▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▄  ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬●  nimirum  ●▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
▬▬▬ ◖ENDING CENSHORSIP ONLINE◗  ◖ ICO OPEN NOW◗ ▬▬▬

ChuckOne

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +293/-17
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3450
  • ☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #89 on: November 08, 2014, 12:56:58 pm »

This is what i understood as well. Once locked, one can only unlock it back but cannot relock them. This makes sense when a currency issued on MS increases this value, you can unlock certain amount to reduce the value of that MS currency to make it standalone or independant.

I doubt you decrease the value when reclaiming your NXTs. I guess it will increase the value of the remaining currency units.

But what i am interested to know is how flexible tx will work with MS.

What exactly do you have in mind? You can transfer currency units and trade them against NXT.
Logged

Riker

  • Core Dev
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +439/-42
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1790
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #90 on: November 08, 2014, 01:31:01 pm »

Folks, we need a couple of days to review the code for the reserbable currency behavior and its effect on the NXT supply and understand all the implications. We'll then come up with an update.

Just to clarify points from the above discussion:
1. Indeed fees are always paid in NXT regardless of the transaction type.
2. The example I provided about locking NXT when issuing Bid Order was inaccurate. When you issue a bid order you are locking your unconfirmed balance but you can still forge as if you poses the total balance. Perhaps the solution to the reservable issue will be similar.
Logged
NXT Core Dev
Account: NXT-HBFW-X8TE-WXPW-DZFAG
Public Key: D8311651 Key fingerprint: 0560 443B 035C EE08 0EC0  D2DD 275E 94A7 D831 1651

Darkhorse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +61/-8
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1016
  • Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #91 on: November 08, 2014, 01:38:03 pm »

This is what i understood as well. Once locked, one can only unlock it back but cannot relock them. This makes sense when a currency issued on MS increases this value, you can unlock certain amount to reduce the value of that MS currency to make it standalone or independant.

I doubt you decrease the value when reclaiming your NXTs. I guess it will increase the value of the remaining currency units.

But what i am interested to know is how flexible tx will work with MS.

What exactly do you have in mind? You can transfer currency units and trade them against NXT.

Will the nxt tx will be adjusted accordingly to the amount a currency is spent or a standard nxt tx for any amount of currency is spent?
Logged
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬  ▄▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▄  ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬●  nimirum  ●▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
▬▬▬ ◖ENDING CENSHORSIP ONLINE◗  ◖ ICO OPEN NOW◗ ▬▬▬

ChuckOne

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +293/-17
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3450
  • ☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #92 on: November 08, 2014, 01:42:27 pm »

Will the nxt tx will be adjusted accordingly to the amount a currency is spent or a standard nxt tx for any amount of currency is spent?

Sorry, I still do not understand. Transactions cannot be adjusted because you have to sign them with your private key.

Do you want to know if the internal structure of transactions have been changed?
« Last Edit: November 08, 2014, 01:49:56 pm by ChuckOne »
Logged

Darkhorse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +61/-8
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1016
  • Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #93 on: November 08, 2014, 02:03:39 pm »

Will the nxt tx will be adjusted accordingly to the amount a currency is spent or a standard nxt tx for any amount of currency is spent?

Sorry, I still do not understand. Transactions cannot be adjusted because you have to sign them with your private key.

Do you want to know if the internal structure of transactions have been changed?

Here is a scenario,

Let's say we created a currency on MS named Crack. For the start, every transaction will use 1 NXT, does not matter 1 Crack or 10,000 Crack. But will this be adjusted in the future, let's say 0.001 nxt for amount smaller than 100 Cracks, 0.01 nxt for 1000 Cracks etc Or will it stay at 1 NXT for any amount spent using Crack.

Sorry to trouble you chuck, but there is a consideration issuing ORA a MS token, so if possible would like to know more in depth about the Monetary System.

Also the question of, will the users of MS will be able to purchase Assets or any other features of NXT, let's say aliases.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2014, 02:05:45 pm by Darkhorse »
Logged
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬  ▄▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▄  ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬●  nimirum  ●▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
▬▬▬ ◖ENDING CENSHORSIP ONLINE◗  ◖ ICO OPEN NOW◗ ▬▬▬

gs02xzz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +56/-12
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1101
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #94 on: November 08, 2014, 02:33:22 pm »

Will exchangeable and claimable be the attributes for each currency of MS or just options which the issuers will have to choose to have them or not when issuing the currency?
Logged
Nxt Mission is to commercialize the crypto technology and build new commerce and society.

ChuckOne

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +293/-17
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3450
  • ☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #95 on: November 08, 2014, 04:02:24 pm »

Let's say we created a currency on MS named Crack. For the start, every transaction will use 1 NXT, does not matter 1 Crack or 10,000 Crack. But will this be adjusted in the future, let's say 0.001 nxt for amount smaller than 100 Cracks, 0.01 nxt for 1000 Cracks etc Or will it stay at 1 NXT for any amount spent using Crack.

That makes it clear to me. Thank you. The fee problem is a general problem to Nxt. Our current idea is that fees should reflect the value of a transaction for the entire ecosystem.

That said, only its size (in bytes) and type of transaction (reserving an alias vs issuing an asset vs payment etc.) will make a difference in fee. That is because when I issue an asset I basically remove a name from the available namespace, so I need to charged more for it than when paying somebody 5 units of whatever. The size is important because the more bytes a transaction has, the more it occupies the pipeline, the bandwidth, the cpu and so on.

So, in your example the fee will stay constant.

Sorry to trouble you chuck, but there is a consideration issuing ORA a MS token, so if possible would like to know more in depth about the Monetary System.

That is a valid concern. Go ahead and ask more questions. :)

Also the question of, will the users of MS will be able to purchase Assets or any other features of NXT, let's say aliases.

From what I can see in the implementation, no. Right now users cannot purchase Nxt things in a trustless way but we will enable these things in the future.

@Lior
Can you confirm this thus far?
Logged

ChuckOne

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +293/-17
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3450
  • ☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #96 on: November 08, 2014, 04:05:15 pm »

Will exchangeable and claimable be the attributes for each currency of MS or just options which the issuers will have to choose to have them or not when issuing the currency?

Right now, these are optional attributes. What is your stance here?
Logged

gs02xzz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +56/-12
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1101
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #97 on: November 08, 2014, 10:21:38 pm »

Will exchangeable and claimable be the attributes for each currency of MS or just options which the issuers will have to choose to have them or not when issuing the currency?
Right now, these are optional attributes. What is your stance here?

Optional is probably not a bad idea. The market will decide which one fits most.
Logged
Nxt Mission is to commercialize the crypto technology and build new commerce and society.

Riker

  • Core Dev
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +439/-42
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1790
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #98 on: November 09, 2014, 06:21:36 am »

Currently. MS currencies cannot be used for AE or alias transactions, this might be supported in the future
Logged
NXT Core Dev
Account: NXT-HBFW-X8TE-WXPW-DZFAG
Public Key: D8311651 Key fingerprint: 0560 443B 035C EE08 0EC0  D2DD 275E 94A7 D831 1651

landomata

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +121/-26
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1535
    • View Profile
    • Newbium
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #99 on: November 09, 2014, 07:15:21 am »


So, in your example the fee will stay constant.


Can you please point me to a clear discussion on when the fees will change & what they will be?

Can you also provide breakdown on how this fee per transaction size will look.



Thanks.

ChuckOne

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +293/-17
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3450
  • ☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #100 on: November 09, 2014, 10:09:56 am »

Can you please point me to a clear discussion on when the fees will change & what they will be?

There is non. There have been many discussions with no clear outcome. The facts are:

- min fees are constant per transaction type (most of them have 1 NXT)
- internally, we have more flexible model which looks like this: https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/our-fee-isn't-competitive/msg99158/#msg99158
- however, its constants are adjusted to get the constant fees we know

Can you also provide breakdown on how this fee per transaction size will look.

cf. https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/our-fee-isn't-competitive/msg99158/#msg99158
Logged

Zahlen

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +26/-4
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 228
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #101 on: November 10, 2014, 01:17:50 pm »

CoinShuffle's unlinkability is not strong when there are many colluding participants who are trying to link addresses. If there are h honest participants and the remainder colluding to discover the final addresses of some/all of the honest participants, each honest participant's final address will lie within the h possibilities that do not correspond to the final addresses submitted by the colluders.

Handling the shuffling like how it's done with MS allows the following attack:

(Possibly honest) A makes a /shuffleCreate request and waits. (Possibly honest) B submits a /shuffleRegister. Once the colluders see these two txs appear on the blockchain, they all join in to A's shuffle to max out its membership, prevent any more honest participants from joining, and get it started.

If they just want to target shuffle creators, they can pile in straightaway after A creates the shuffle. Then they'll be able to calculate A's final address (not merely restrict it to two possibilities).

EDIT: And if they just want to target registering participants, one of them starts the shuffle, they wait for one account to register, then pile in.


The shuffling can be done outside Nxt. Only the signing of the final 'N inputs to N outputs' 'CoinJoin' tx needs to be done within Nxt, by all N participants.

EDIT: If we want to do everything within Nxt, one way to mitigate this attack is if there were a reputation system already in place. Then you should not join/continue with shuffles that have fewer participants with good reputation than you're comfortable with. Clients could enforce a minimum threshold. This way is not ideal, reputation systems can be gamed. But may be good enough for 'average folks' uses. Would be better still if the process could be changed to avoid 'tipping off' attackers like this.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2014, 04:59:48 pm by Zahlen »
Logged

Riker

  • Core Dev
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +439/-42
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1790
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #102 on: November 10, 2014, 08:32:27 pm »

CoinShuffle's unlinkability is not strong when there are many colluding participants who are trying to link addresses. If there are h honest participants and the remainder colluding to discover the final addresses of some/all of the honest participants, each honest participant's final address will lie within the h possibilities that do not correspond to the final addresses submitted by the colluders.

Handling the shuffling like how it's done with MS allows the following attack:

(Possibly honest) A makes a /shuffleCreate request and waits. (Possibly honest) B submits a /shuffleRegister. Once the colluders see these two txs appear on the blockchain, they all join in to A's shuffle to max out its membership, prevent any more honest participants from joining, and get it started.

If they just want to target shuffle creators, they can pile in straightaway after A creates the shuffle. Then they'll be able to calculate A's final address (not merely restrict it to two possibilities).

EDIT: And if they just want to target registering participants, one of them starts the shuffle, they wait for one account to register, then pile in.


The shuffling can be done outside Nxt. Only the signing of the final 'N inputs to N outputs' 'CoinJoin' tx needs to be done within Nxt, by all N participants.

EDIT: If we want to do everything within Nxt, one way to mitigate this attack is if there were a reputation system already in place. Then you should not join/continue with shuffles that have fewer participants with good reputation than you're comfortable with. Clients could enforce a minimum threshold. This way is not ideal, reputation systems can be gamed. But may be good enough for 'average folks' uses. Would be better still if the process could be changed to avoid 'tipping off' attackers like this.

I agree, but performing shuffling outside of the Blockchain has its own risks and trust issues and is more complex to implement. Coin shuffling is a privacy feature that gives the average Joe a simple way to make it a bit more difficult to track him. Another issue with shuffling is that it leaks information, people can tell that you participated in shuffling, which amount you shuffled, how much fees you paid etc. Its not perfect but it should be simple and usable and if you perform it 10 times, it really starts to become difficult to track you.
If someone needs an off Blockchain solution they can review the code and implement a similar process.
Logged
NXT Core Dev
Account: NXT-HBFW-X8TE-WXPW-DZFAG
Public Key: D8311651 Key fingerprint: 0560 443B 035C EE08 0EC0  D2DD 275E 94A7 D831 1651

msin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +138/-18
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1288
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #103 on: November 10, 2014, 09:29:16 pm »

http://www.coindesk.com/crypto-2-0-roundup-sec-rumours-swarms-payday-ethereum-expands/

A nice mention of Nxt Monetary System near end of article, thanks Bas.
Logged

Damelon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +792/-54
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2314
    • View Profile
    • Nxt Inside
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #104 on: November 10, 2014, 10:29:35 pm »

Ah nice!
Happy to see the first pay-off of the coindesk contacts we now have :)
Logged
Member of the Nxt Foundation | Donations: NXT-D6K7-MLY6-98FM-FLL5T
Join Nxt Slack! https://nxtchat.herokuapp.com/
Founder of Blockchain Workspace | Personal Site & Blog

Riker

  • Core Dev
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +439/-42
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1790
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #105 on: November 12, 2014, 08:06:43 am »

To address the concern that locked NXT may reduce the network security we implemented the following change:
When a Reservable currency is Claimable, we lock the NXT but allow claims. Then locking is not permanent, and a lower limit of the currency price is established.
When a Reservable currency is not Claimable, instead of locking we give the reserved NXT to the issuer (only if reserve is met). This can work as crowd funding, and there is no locking and no claiming.

It is still possible, in theory, that large amount of NXT get locked into Reservable/Claimable currency. We'll monitor this situation closely and if necessary address it in a future update.

The documentation has been updated to reflect these changes: https://bitbucket.org/JeanLucPicard/nxt/issue/136/monetary-system
« Last Edit: November 12, 2014, 08:13:14 am by lyaffe »
Logged
NXT Core Dev
Account: NXT-HBFW-X8TE-WXPW-DZFAG
Public Key: D8311651 Key fingerprint: 0560 443B 035C EE08 0EC0  D2DD 275E 94A7 D831 1651

Sebastien256

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +169/-24
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2823
  • ^LOOK UP^ = Nxt community!
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #106 on: November 12, 2014, 08:10:56 am »

It is still possible, in theory, that large amount of NXT get locked into Reservable/Claimable currency. We'll monitor this situation closely and if necessary address it in a future updates.

hmm, I do not find this very satisfactory. There is no solution to the problem of reduced security with locked NxT?
Logged
Please drop your ideas concerning Nxt and/or NRS in this topic -> List of feature request for Nxt and/or NRS (with the full list in OP).

Fatih87SK

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +127/-36
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2206
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #107 on: November 12, 2014, 08:16:10 am »

I'm not technical and can say bullshit.  What about leasing the 'locked' NXT amount so it can participate to secure the network?

Nice work lyaffe.
Logged

Darkhorse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +61/-8
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1016
  • Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #108 on: November 12, 2014, 08:18:23 am »

To address the concern that locked NXT may reduce the network security we implemented the following change:
When a Reservable currency is Claimable, we lock the NXT but allow claims. Then locking is not permanent, and a lower limit of the currency price is established.
When a Reservable currency is not Claimable, instead of locking we give the reserved NXT to the issuer (only if reserve is met). This can work as crowd funding, and there is no locking and no claiming.

It is still possible, in theory, that large amount of NXT get locked into Reservable/Claimable currency. We'll monitor this situation closely and if necessary address it in a future update.

The documentation has been updated to reflect these changes: https://bitbucket.org/JeanLucPicard/nxt/issue/136/monetary-system

Is there a limit on the minimum locking amount?
Logged
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬  ▄▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▄  ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬●  nimirum  ●▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
▬▬▬ ◖ENDING CENSHORSIP ONLINE◗  ◖ ICO OPEN NOW◗ ▬▬▬

Darkhorse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +61/-8
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1016
  • Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #109 on: November 12, 2014, 08:22:18 am »

It is still possible, in theory, that large amount of NXT get locked into Reservable/Claimable currency. We'll monitor this situation closely and if necessary address it in a future updates.

hmm, I do not find this very satisfactory. There is no solution to the problem of reduced security with locked NxT?

This is my opinion, when the amount of NXT is reduced, the price of NXT may go up, thus value of each will be higher. Dont you think this would be an extra incentive for the forgers? This will indirectly help in securing the network.
Logged
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬  ▄▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▄  ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬●  nimirum  ●▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
▬▬▬ ◖ENDING CENSHORSIP ONLINE◗  ◖ ICO OPEN NOW◗ ▬▬▬

Sebastien256

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +169/-24
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2823
  • ^LOOK UP^ = Nxt community!
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #110 on: November 12, 2014, 09:17:13 am »



It is still possible, in theory, that large amount of NXT get locked into Reservable/Claimable currency. We'll monitor this situation closely and if necessary address it in a future updates.

hmm, I do not find this very satisfactory. There is no solution to the problem of reduced security with locked NxT?

This is my opinion, when the amount of NXT is reduced, the price of NXT may go up, thus value of each will be higher. Dont you think this would be an extra incentive for the forgers? This will indirectly help in securing the network.

This is rather a personal opinion than a technical fact. I believe if MS is to be implemented, they should not be any doubt that it won't lead to a less secure network. The design should be make in such a way that no problem should occur.

So, I see that it seem that there is no technical solution to this at the moment? It really look like this: Let implemented MS and HOPE there won't be any problem, and HOPE again to find a solution if a problem occur (relative to the security of NXT).

Please guys, design a bullet proof app or just let it go and don't implemented MS. Wait until you know how to prevent the weakening of the Nxt Network.
Logged
Please drop your ideas concerning Nxt and/or NRS in this topic -> List of feature request for Nxt and/or NRS (with the full list in OP).

monsterer

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +18/-2
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 175
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #111 on: November 12, 2014, 09:51:39 am »

What happens when MS becomes very popular and a basket of currencies have been issued with a total reserve of 900 Million NXT and all reserved NXT have been locked? Since locked NXT are excluded from effective balance, we're left with only 100M NXT effective balance for forging and securing the network. What happens if all NXT have been locked?

Isn't that like asking what happens if everyone cashes out of bitcoin and into fiat?

Actually, it isn't since bitcoin would still be in someone's possession.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2014, 11:34:33 am by monsterer »
Logged
https://metaexchange.info/
NXT<->BTC instant exchange - low spread, no registration

Nxter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +61/-7
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 597
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #112 on: November 12, 2014, 09:58:42 am »



It is still possible, in theory, that large amount of NXT get locked into Reservable/Claimable currency. We'll monitor this situation closely and if necessary address it in a future updates.

hmm, I do not find this very satisfactory. There is no solution to the problem of reduced security with locked NxT?

This is my opinion, when the amount of NXT is reduced, the price of NXT may go up, thus value of each will be higher. Dont you think this would be an extra incentive for the forgers? This will indirectly help in securing the network.

This is rather a personal opinion than a technical fact. I believe if MS is to be implemented, they should not be any doubt that it won't lead to a less secure network. The design should be make in such a way that no problem should occur.

So, I see that it seem that there is no technical solution to this at the moment? It really look like this: Let implemented MS and HOPE there won't be any problem, and HOPE again to find a solution if a problem occur (relative to the security of NXT).

Please guys, design a bullet proof app or just let it go and don't implemented MS. Wait until you know how to prevent the weakening of the Nxt Network.

What about giving forging power to the MS sub-currencies?
The sub-currencies would have a "effective balance for forging" proportional to the NXT they have been baked with..   :)
Logged

Sebastien256

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +169/-24
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2823
  • ^LOOK UP^ = Nxt community!
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #113 on: November 12, 2014, 10:24:49 am »



It is still possible, in theory, that large amount of NXT get locked into Reservable/Claimable currency. We'll monitor this situation closely and if necessary address it in a future updates.

hmm, I do not find this very satisfactory. There is no solution to the problem of reduced security with locked NxT?

This is my opinion, when the amount of NXT is reduced, the price of NXT may go up, thus value of each will be higher. Dont you think this would be an extra incentive for the forgers? This will indirectly help in securing the network.

This is rather a personal opinion than a technical fact. I believe if MS is to be implemented, they should not be any doubt that it won't lead to a less secure network. The design should be make in such a way that no problem should occur.

So, I see that it seem that there is no technical solution to this at the moment? It really look like this: Let implemented MS and HOPE there won't be any problem, and HOPE again to find a solution if a problem occur (relative to the security of NXT).

Please guys, design a bullet proof app or just let it go and don't implemented MS. Wait until you know how to prevent the weakening of the Nxt Network.

What about giving forging power to the MS sub-currencies?
The sub-currencies would have a "effective balance for forging" proportional to the NXT they have been baked with..   :)

That would make sense. Altought, I find it weird that some currency would not be able to be reclaimable. This may have the same effect as sending Nxt to the genesis account.
Logged
Please drop your ideas concerning Nxt and/or NRS in this topic -> List of feature request for Nxt and/or NRS (with the full list in OP).

monsterer

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +18/-2
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 175
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #114 on: November 12, 2014, 11:37:07 am »

That would make sense. Altought, I find it weird that some currency would not be able to be reclaimable. This may have the same effect as sending Nxt to the genesis account.

Non reclaimable currency is essentially made by burning NXT. You need to support this feature if you want to have an MS currency which tracks another currency (CONTROLLABLE attribute), otherwise you always have a lower limit on the price (from reclaiming the NXT) which is incompatible with CONTROLLABLE.
Logged
https://metaexchange.info/
NXT<->BTC instant exchange - low spread, no registration

Sebastien256

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +169/-24
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2823
  • ^LOOK UP^ = Nxt community!
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #115 on: November 12, 2014, 11:43:45 am »

That would make sense. Altought, I find it weird that some currency would not be able to be reclaimable. This may have the same effect as sending Nxt to the genesis account.

Non reclaimable currency is essentially made by burning NXT. You need to support this feature if you want to have an MS currency which tracks another currency (CONTROLLABLE attribute), otherwise you always have a lower limit on the price (from reclaiming the NXT) which is incompatible with CONTROLLABLE.

What are the controllable attributes? In what used case MS currency need to track another currency?

I feel like I did not follow well enought the MS topic.  :D
Logged
Please drop your ideas concerning Nxt and/or NRS in this topic -> List of feature request for Nxt and/or NRS (with the full list in OP).

monsterer

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +18/-2
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 175
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #116 on: November 12, 2014, 11:50:14 am »

What are the controllable attributes? In what used case MS currency need to track another currency?

I feel like I did not follow well enought the MS topic.  :D

https://bitbucket.org/JeanLucPicard/nxt/issue/136/monetary-system

Quote
CONTROLLABLE - currency property suitable for currencies which needs to track an external entity. It imposes the following limitations on the currency (1) Currency can be transferred only to/from the issuer account (2) only the issuer account can publish exchange offers

Use case nxtUSD:

  • Single trusted issuer
  • Only the issuer can sell or buy the currency
  • They control the exchange rate, therefore they can set the global buy/sell price to ensure that nxtUSD tracks actual price of USD in NXT.
Logged
https://metaexchange.info/
NXT<->BTC instant exchange - low spread, no registration

Sebastien256

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +169/-24
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2823
  • ^LOOK UP^ = Nxt community!
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #117 on: November 12, 2014, 11:54:26 am »

Thanks I understand.
Logged
Please drop your ideas concerning Nxt and/or NRS in this topic -> List of feature request for Nxt and/or NRS (with the full list in OP).

Riker

  • Core Dev
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +439/-42
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1790
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #118 on: November 12, 2014, 03:53:43 pm »

Please guys, design a bullet proof app or just let it go and don't implemented MS. Wait until you know how to prevent the weakening of the Nxt Network.

@Sebastien256, after some brainstorming with JLP we reached the following conclusions:
1. Reducing the total number of NXT by itself will not break forging. Just like on testnet, we are currently forging with two accounts having about 20M total, and there are blocks every
minute, with targets and difficulties adjusted correspondingly.

2. Regarding the risk that the value of NXT will be less than the value of the MS currencies it hosts. This is not related to the total number of NXT in the system. Even if we don't lock NXT and keep the total same as now, if high value of a currency relative to NXT weakens the security, that can still happen.
Trying to prevent the total number of NXT going down will not keep its value high if each NXT gets cheaper. In fact, we already have this situation now, nothing prevents an asset to become more valuable than the total value of NXT in the system. If this is a security issue, this genie is out of the bottle now.

3. Let's imagine an apocalyptic scenario where all the accounts lock their NXT to currencies, there is no one left to forge, and you cannot even claim back your NXT since no one will be able to forge the block containing this claim transaction. We assume this will be prevented by the same mechanism that prevents someone from buying up all NXT. As the total supply decreases, each NXT will become more valuable, and people starting new currencies will be willing to lock less and less NXT.
Also consider that all those currencies on top of NXT will need to pay fees in NXT so increased demand for MS will also increase the demand for NXT.

Overall, we think this is an interesting theoretical risk which will never happen in practice.

The ideas presented above of leasing locked NXT (to someone) or giving MS currencies forging power are both valid but difficult to implement and its hard to predict if they increase or decrease network security since there arguments both ways.

Keep up the good feedback guys !
Logged
NXT Core Dev
Account: NXT-HBFW-X8TE-WXPW-DZFAG
Public Key: D8311651 Key fingerprint: 0560 443B 035C EE08 0EC0  D2DD 275E 94A7 D831 1651

Sebastien256

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +169/-24
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2823
  • ^LOOK UP^ = Nxt community!
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #119 on: November 12, 2014, 03:58:08 pm »


Ok, thanks for the clarification. At least there is workaround if this become a problem. That is what I needed to know  :)

Keep up the good work!
Logged
Please drop your ideas concerning Nxt and/or NRS in this topic -> List of feature request for Nxt and/or NRS (with the full list in OP).

monsterer

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +18/-2
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 175
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #120 on: November 12, 2014, 04:07:38 pm »

Also consider that all those currencies on top of NXT will need to pay fees in NXT so increased demand for MS will also increase the demand for NXT.

This. I don't think the problem as posed in this thread is a realistic worry.
Logged
https://metaexchange.info/
NXT<->BTC instant exchange - low spread, no registration

v39453

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +12/-2
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 155
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #121 on: November 12, 2014, 04:55:40 pm »

In fact, we already have this situation now, nothing prevents an asset to become more valuable than the total value of NXT in the system. If this is a security issue, this genie is out of the bottle now.

I don't think that anything needs to be done about it, but perhaps investors and users of Monetary System currencies should be aware that Nxt can have tokens with different security levels:

1. NXT coins and Monetary System currencies with market capitalization lower than NXT
2. Monetary System currencies with market capitalization higher than NXT. Danger is that cost of a double spend attack goes down when price rises (relative to NXT).   
3. Assets. Usually depend on the honesty of one person.
Logged

coinomat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +214/-18
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1520
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #122 on: November 26, 2014, 09:58:54 am »

Didn't find this in the docs, is there any interplay between MS and AE? In particular, would it be possible to buy assets directly with MS coins?
Logged
Time to go further

Riker

  • Core Dev
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +439/-42
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1790
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #123 on: November 26, 2014, 10:26:36 am »

Didn't find this in the docs, is there any interplay between MS and AE? In particular, would it be possible to buy assets directly with MS coins?

This is not supported at the moment. You have to exchange or claim your currency for NXT first and then buy the asset or the other way around you have to sell your asset for NXT and then exchange NXT for the currency. Perhaps a 3rd party service can implement this transparently.
Logged
NXT Core Dev
Account: NXT-HBFW-X8TE-WXPW-DZFAG
Public Key: D8311651 Key fingerprint: 0560 443B 035C EE08 0EC0  D2DD 275E 94A7 D831 1651

Riker

  • Core Dev
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +439/-42
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1790
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #124 on: December 11, 2014, 10:42:54 am »

Documentation content and link were updated.
Here is the new link https://bitbucket.org/JeanLucPicard/nxt/issue/205/monetary-system-documenation
Logged
NXT Core Dev
Account: NXT-HBFW-X8TE-WXPW-DZFAG
Public Key: D8311651 Key fingerprint: 0560 443B 035C EE08 0EC0  D2DD 275E 94A7 D831 1651

msin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +138/-18
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1288
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #125 on: December 11, 2014, 01:53:40 pm »

Documentation content and link were updated.
Here is the new link https://bitbucket.org/JeanLucPicard/nxt/issue/205/monetary-system-documenation

Very cool, thanks for posting.
Logged

jl777

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +718/-123
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6170
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #126 on: December 11, 2014, 08:46:34 pm »

This is looking a lot more flexible than I had assumed it would be. Fantastic stuff!

I have a small request:

"CLAIMABLE - currency units of resereable currency can later be claimed at the same NXT per unit rate reached when reserving the currency. The ability to claim a currency at a certain rate imposes some practical limits on the rates in which users would want to exchange it. However claimable currency can also be exchanged if only for the purpose of exchanging the whole currency supply so that the currency can be deleted."

This appears to indicate that the issuer can forcibly recall a currency, if so that is a great feature to have, but the requirement that it has to be at the same as the reserve price makes it very much limited. Any possibility of having a separate parameter that is the claimprice?

My idea is that a coin could provide some reasonable return and this would directly be an equity backed loan!

Say the premium for the claimprice is 15%, then this is the interest rate paid. If it isnt paid, then the ownership is shared

Still digesting possible use cases, there seem to be quite a few, especially if we can get a few tweaks to it

James
Logged
There are over 1000 people in SuperNET slack! http://slackinvite.supernet.org/ automatically sends you an invite

I am just a simple C programmer

Riker

  • Core Dev
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +439/-42
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1790
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #127 on: December 11, 2014, 09:25:22 pm »

This is looking a lot more flexible than I had assumed it would be. Fantastic stuff!

I have a small request:

"CLAIMABLE - currency units of resereable currency can later be claimed at the same NXT per unit rate reached when reserving the currency. The ability to claim a currency at a certain rate imposes some practical limits on the rates in which users would want to exchange it. However claimable currency can also be exchanged if only for the purpose of exchanging the whole currency supply so that the currency can be deleted."

This appears to indicate that the issuer can forcibly recall a currency, if so that is a great feature to have, but the requirement that it has to be at the same as the reserve price makes it very much limited. Any possibility of having a separate parameter that is the claimprice?

My idea is that a coin could provide some reasonable return and this would directly be an equity backed loan!

Say the premium for the claimprice is 15%, then this is the interest rate paid. If it isnt paid, then the ownership is shared

Still digesting possible use cases, there seem to be quite a few, especially if we can get a few tweaks to it

James

The issuer cannot forcibly recall currency units. The idea is that the issuer can issue an exchange offer, offering a rate which is better than the claim rate, thus incentivize the founders or whoever holds the currency now to exchange their units back to NXT instead of holding them as a store of value. This does not change the NXT supply since the issuer will have to exchange the units for NXT he already poses and the NXT stays locked but locked to the issuer account.

Regarding the premium for the claim price, the problem is that let's say we offer 15% premium for the claim price and users lock 100K NXT. They can now claim back 115K NXT effectively increasing the NXT supply by 15K.
Logged
NXT Core Dev
Account: NXT-HBFW-X8TE-WXPW-DZFAG
Public Key: D8311651 Key fingerprint: 0560 443B 035C EE08 0EC0  D2DD 275E 94A7 D831 1651

jl777

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +718/-123
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6170
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #128 on: December 11, 2014, 09:32:54 pm »

This is looking a lot more flexible than I had assumed it would be. Fantastic stuff!

I have a small request:

"CLAIMABLE - currency units of resereable currency can later be claimed at the same NXT per unit rate reached when reserving the currency. The ability to claim a currency at a certain rate imposes some practical limits on the rates in which users would want to exchange it. However claimable currency can also be exchanged if only for the purpose of exchanging the whole currency supply so that the currency can be deleted."

This appears to indicate that the issuer can forcibly recall a currency, if so that is a great feature to have, but the requirement that it has to be at the same as the reserve price makes it very much limited. Any possibility of having a separate parameter that is the claimprice?

My idea is that a coin could provide some reasonable return and this would directly be an equity backed loan!

Say the premium for the claimprice is 15%, then this is the interest rate paid. If it isnt paid, then the ownership is shared

Still digesting possible use cases, there seem to be quite a few, especially if we can get a few tweaks to it

James

The issuer cannot forcibly recall currency units. The idea is that the issuer can issue an exchange offer, offering a rate which is better than the claim rate, thus incentivize the founders or whoever holds the currency now to exchange their units back to NXT instead of holding them as a store of value. This does not change the NXT supply since the issuer will have to exchange the units for NXT he already poses and the NXT stays locked but locked to the issuer account.

Regarding the premium for the claim price, the problem is that let's say we offer 15% premium for the claim price and users lock 100K NXT. They can now claim back 115K NXT effectively increasing the NXT supply by 15K.
I guess the mechanism is using the locked NXT...
There would need to be a way to provide external funds that triggers an automatic buyout, I guess that would be quite a lot more work...

Anyway, I figured it wouldnt hurt to ask and if we could have blockchain enforced loans, that would be cool
Logged
There are over 1000 people in SuperNET slack! http://slackinvite.supernet.org/ automatically sends you an invite

I am just a simple C programmer

Riker

  • Core Dev
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +439/-42
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1790
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #129 on: December 11, 2014, 09:37:13 pm »

Anyway, I figured it wouldnt hurt to ask and if we could have blockchain enforced loans, that would be cool

This would be the Credit System but its still far away.
Logged
NXT Core Dev
Account: NXT-HBFW-X8TE-WXPW-DZFAG
Public Key: D8311651 Key fingerprint: 0560 443B 035C EE08 0EC0  D2DD 275E 94A7 D831 1651

Daedelus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +230/-12
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3280
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #130 on: December 17, 2014, 11:53:14 am »

Testnet version of MS released...

https://nxtforum.org/nrs-releases/nrs-v1-4-0e/
Logged
NXT: NXT-4CS7-S4N5-PTH5-A8R2Q

Damelon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +792/-54
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2314
    • View Profile
    • Nxt Inside
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #131 on: December 17, 2014, 04:26:14 pm »

Made a new thread for MS on Bitcointalk: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=896520.0

Please help out people who don't know Nxt that well, and if people start trolling, just ignore please :)
Logged
Member of the Nxt Foundation | Donations: NXT-D6K7-MLY6-98FM-FLL5T
Join Nxt Slack! https://nxtchat.herokuapp.com/
Founder of Blockchain Workspace | Personal Site & Blog

DesertWind

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +70/-16
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 172
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #132 on: December 29, 2014, 05:02:06 am »

Anyway, I figured it wouldnt hurt to ask and if we could have blockchain enforced loans, that would be cool

This would be the Credit System but its still far away.

Maybe this needs to be prioritized...

In the Real World businesses do not issue "currencies" and try to get them adopted...
They issue Stock, Debt and Convertible Debt....
With the Bond Market dwarfing the Stock Market by a factor of 100 or more.

So we have Stock = Assets...
We need a generic NXT Bond with face value, interest rate, and redemption date...
And these should be HARD values so not easily manipulated by issuers.

Similarly, NXT Convertible Debt is either redeemed for NXT or converted into an Asset at a set rate...
Again AT THE OWNER'S choice on a set date... again, to minimize manipulation by the issuer.

NXT Bonds can ONLY be issued by NXT Assets...
And this Debt would trade on the AE with good volume...
Since it would be much easier to quantify than Asset values.

NXT Bonds, baby... probably trivial to implement relative to the Monetary System.
Logged

jl777

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +718/-123
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6170
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #133 on: December 29, 2014, 05:05:17 am »

Anyway, I figured it wouldnt hurt to ask and if we could have blockchain enforced loans, that would be cool

This would be the Credit System but its still far away.

Maybe this needs to be prioritized...

In the Real World businesses do not issue "currencies" and try to get them adopted...
They issue Stock, Debt and Convertible Debt....
With the Bond Market dwarfing the Stock Market by a factor of 100 or more.

So we have Stock = Assets...
We need a generic NXT Bond with face value, interest rate, and redemption date...
And these should be HARD values so not easily manipulated by issuers.

Similarly, NXT Convertible Debt is either redeemed for NXT or converted into an Asset at a set rate...
Again AT THE OWNER'S choice on a set date... again, to minimize manipulation by the issuer.

NXT Bonds can ONLY be issued by NXT Assets...
And this Debt would trade on the AE with good volume...
Since it would be much easier to quantify than Asset values.

NXT Bonds, baby... probably trivial to implement relative to the Monetary System.
convertible bonds. pretty cool!
Logged
There are over 1000 people in SuperNET slack! http://slackinvite.supernet.org/ automatically sends you an invite

I am just a simple C programmer

landomata

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +121/-26
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1535
    • View Profile
    • Newbium
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #134 on: December 29, 2014, 06:02:57 am »

Anyway, I figured it wouldnt hurt to ask and if we could have blockchain enforced loans, that would be cool

This would be the Credit System but its still far away.

Maybe this needs to be prioritized...

In the Real World businesses do not issue "currencies" and try to get them adopted...
They issue Stock, Debt and Convertible Debt....
With the Bond Market dwarfing the Stock Market by a factor of 100 or more.

So we have Stock = Assets...
We need a generic NXT Bond with face value, interest rate, and redemption date...
And these should be HARD values so not easily manipulated by issuers.

Similarly, NXT Convertible Debt is either redeemed for NXT or converted into an Asset at a set rate...
Again AT THE OWNER'S choice on a set date... again, to minimize manipulation by the issuer.

NXT Bonds can ONLY be issued by NXT Assets...
And this Debt would trade on the AE with good volume...
Since it would be much easier to quantify than Asset values.

NXT Bonds, baby... probably trivial to implement relative to the Monetary System.
convertible bonds. pretty cool!
+1

Darkhorse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +61/-8
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1016
  • Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #135 on: January 08, 2015, 12:21:08 pm »

Where can i find more information on Reservable feature.


What does this mean? Can someone please help to answer.

1.) MINIMUM AMOUNT OF NXT PER WHOLE UNIT NEEDED TO ACTIVATE CURRENCY

2.) UNITS TO RESERVE
Logged
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬  ▄▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▄  ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬●  nimirum  ●▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
▬▬▬ ◖ENDING CENSHORSIP ONLINE◗  ◖ ICO OPEN NOW◗ ▬▬▬

Riker

  • Core Dev
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +439/-42
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1790
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #136 on: January 08, 2015, 01:15:47 pm »

Where can i find more information on Reservable feature.


What does this mean? Can someone please help to answer.

1.) MINIMUM AMOUNT OF NXT PER WHOLE UNIT NEEDED TO ACTIVATE CURRENCY

2.) UNITS TO RESERVE

1. If you issue 100,000 currency units and you set this parameter to 0.01 then if more than 1000 NXT are reserved (i.e. > 100,000 * 0.01) your currency is issued, otherwise it is cancelled and the NXT are distributed back to the founders.

2. Units to reserve is the number of units distributed between the founders of a reserveable currency once the the currency becomes active i.e. the minimum amount per unit is met and the issuance height is reached.
If the reserve is 50,000 and 1000 NXT were invested, each founder will receive 50 currency units for each NXT reserved (i.e. 50,000 / 1000).
Logged
NXT Core Dev
Account: NXT-HBFW-X8TE-WXPW-DZFAG
Public Key: D8311651 Key fingerprint: 0560 443B 035C EE08 0EC0  D2DD 275E 94A7 D831 1651

mystcoin

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +50/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 188
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #137 on: January 08, 2015, 07:17:19 pm »

There is now a Nxt Wiki guide for the Monetary System, based on lyaffe's documentation.
Logged

rkfg

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 33
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #138 on: January 13, 2015, 04:35:23 pm »

1. If you issue 100,000 currency units and you set this parameter to 0.01 then if more than 1000 NXT are reserved (i.e. > 100,000 * 0.01) your currency is issued, otherwise it is cancelled and the NXT are distributed back to the founders.
This is quite confusing, especially the need of multiplication of this and that. Wouldn't it be easier for people to enter just the number of NXT they want to pledge (100 NXT) instead of 0.001 (100000 units * 0.001 amount == 100 NXT)? It's just the UI feature, no protocol changes required but it's much more natural to do it this way.

2. Units to reserve is the number of units distributed between the founders of a reserveable currency once the the currency becomes active i.e. the minimum amount per unit is met and the issuance height is reached.
If the reserve is 50,000 and 1000 NXT were invested, each founder will receive 50 currency units for each NXT reserved (i.e. 50,000 / 1000).
I don't understand the meaning of this parameter. It's said in the wiki that
Quote
It must therefore equal TOTAL SUPPLY and be greater than INITIAL SUPPLY.
Why do we need a field that always contains the same value as another field? Again, confuses people a lot.
Logged

Riker

  • Core Dev
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +439/-42
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1790
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #139 on: January 13, 2015, 08:52:33 pm »

1. If you issue 100,000 currency units and you set this parameter to 0.01 then if more than 1000 NXT are reserved (i.e. > 100,000 * 0.01) your currency is issued, otherwise it is cancelled and the NXT are distributed back to the founders.
This is quite confusing, especially the need of multiplication of this and that. Wouldn't it be easier for people to enter just the number of NXT they want to pledge (100 NXT) instead of 0.001 (100000 units * 0.001 amount == 100 NXT)? It's just the UI feature, no protocol changes required but it's much more natural to do it this way.

I agree it's confusing, we implemented it this way to prevent rounding problems caused by division. Its possible to change this but needs some design, in principal I'd like to leave it as is. Currency issuers should know what they are doing.

Quote
2. Units to reserve is the number of units distributed between the founders of a reserveable currency once the the currency becomes active i.e. the minimum amount per unit is met and the issuance height is reached.
If the reserve is 50,000 and 1000 NXT were invested, each founder will receive 50 currency units for each NXT reserved (i.e. 50,000 / 1000).
I don't understand the meaning of this parameter. It's said in the wiki that
Quote
It must therefore equal TOTAL SUPPLY and be greater than INITIAL SUPPLY.
Why do we need a field that always contains the same value as another field? Again, confuses people a lot.

Please read again in https://bitbucket.org/JeanLucPicard/nxt/issue/205 about "Store of Value" vs. "Crowd Funding" when using the Claimable property (store of value) your reserve supply must equal the total supply but when using "Crowd Funding" you have more flexibility:
Initial Supply is your pre-mine
(Reserve Supply - Initial Supply) is the crowd funding amount
(Total Supply - Reserve Supply) is the amount left for minters to mint
Logged
NXT Core Dev
Account: NXT-HBFW-X8TE-WXPW-DZFAG
Public Key: D8311651 Key fingerprint: 0560 443B 035C EE08 0EC0  D2DD 275E 94A7 D831 1651

rkfg

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 33
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #140 on: January 14, 2015, 06:14:29 am »

I agree it's confusing, we implemented it this way to prevent rounding problems caused by division. Its possible to change this but needs some design, in principal I'd like to leave it as is. Currency issuers should know what they are doing.
Issues of this class are familiar to me, though technical limitations should not be a user's problem, especially when they don't require any internal changes of established rules, just the UI. It's pretty easy to make a JS check for bad rounding and tell user to change their pledge with a brief technical explanation of why it's important. Of course, issuing a currency isn't a daily task and kinda "for geeks" even among geeks but this exact feature is meant for crowdfunding which is targeted for mass audience and so should be as easy for them as possible. I doubt kickstarter would lift off if they would require dividing the target amount by your pledge by hand and entering the result to a pledge field. It's weird.
Initial Supply is your pre-mine
(Reserve Supply - Initial Supply) is the crowd funding amount
(Total Supply - Reserve Supply) is the amount left for minters to mint
This makes sense, it should be therefore mentioned in the wiki. For now it states that the reserve should be explicitly equal to total supply without exceptions.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 ... 8 [All]
 

elective-stereophonic
elective-stereophonic
assembly
assembly