elective-stereophonic
elective-stereophonic
Monetary System documentation singapore
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Latest Stable Nxt Client: Nxt 1.12.2

Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 8  All

Author Topic: Monetary System documentation  (Read 52429 times)

ChuckOne

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +293/-17
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3450
  • ☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #80 on: November 08, 2014, 10:10:12 am »

Its a good point and we need to think about it. We already have this problem to lesser extent whenever we lock unconfirmed balance, for example with the asset exchange. what if people place bid orders which are not executed yet for 900M this also locks NXT.

How was this solved there?

We seem to need to deal with changing the total amount of effective NXTs as reserving (reduction) and claiming (increase) effect the total amount of NXTs.
Logged

Pouncer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Karma: +30/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 65
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #81 on: November 08, 2014, 10:11:07 am »

1. Why would holders of MS currencies claim back their NXT if by then these currencies will be worth more than the locked NXT?
2. If or when we reach that level, most transactions will likely be done in MS currencies, and since tx fees will be in MS currencies, what will be the incentive to forge NXT?
3. By then, remaining poor sleeping NXT whales will not be incentivised to continue securing the network for the rich MS whales (who don't have to do any forging/securing) ???


To clear up some statements and facts:

1) fees will always be in NXT
2) Whales are and will remain the backbone of securing the Nxt blockchain. They will always be able to sell NXT (the fuel that is necessary to have transactions verified) to users in exchange for currencies that they then can use to buy needed goods and services.


I hope your above 2 statements are correct, because they contradict links I referred to in the points I raised.
Logged

v39453

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +12/-2
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 155
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #82 on: November 08, 2014, 10:17:21 am »

What happens when MS becomes very popular and a basket of currencies have been issued with a total reserve of 900 Million NXT and all reserved NXT have been locked? Since locked NXT are excluded from effective balance, we're left with only 100M NXT effective balance for forging and securing the network. What happens if all NXT have been locked?

Its a good point and we need to think about it. We already have this problem to lesser extent whenever we lock unconfirmed balance, for example with the asset exchange. what if people place bid orders which are not executed yet for 900M this also locks NXT.

I think that if only 100M NXT are left people would have better chance of forging and therefore they have incentive to claim their currency reserves or exchange the currency back to NXT but this does not prevent denial of service.

People can forge even with 1000 NXT that is distributed over 100 people.

1000 NXT is only $20 with current prices. How can that secure the entire network?

Also what happens when the market cap of a MS currency rises above NXT, for example to $100 million. Now the $100 million is secured with $20 million of NXT. The MS currency could be attacked, which would bring the price down. This mechanism is not as "smooth" as the mechanism where the rising price of NXT makes the network more secure. Somehow MS seems to go against the principle of Proof of Stake.
 
Logged

ChuckOne

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +293/-17
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3450
  • ☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #83 on: November 08, 2014, 10:20:13 am »

I hope your above 2 statements are correct, because they contradict links I referred to in the points I raised.

cfb,

How does the tx for these sub currency work? Let's say X currency is created and i did a transaction with that currency. Will the tx be in NXT or X currency? Let's say the worst case scenario, all the existing nxt's has been locked with a multiple new currencies X,Y,Z etc.  (there will be no more  nxt exist outside the system), So imo the tx would not be in nxt but individual currencies. Is the nxt platform capable enough to handle all the different types of currency txs at one go?

In X. Yes, capable.

Okay, CfB is not referring to fee.


Would be interesting to know who is that whale that sells NXT right before 1.3...

Yesterday a lead developer of NXT was putting down whales, said he will launch a new currency, and let NXT go down in value.

Same as a CEO putting down the largest investors, because they don't work actively in the company, or do not donate stock to grow the company, and saying he will launch a new company, and let the current company go down in value.

When confronted with the fact that (large) investors already add value by simply remaining invested in the company, his defense was that it was the original plan all along and large investors are free to leave ...

You know how considerate CfB sometimes can be. MS will create opportunities for whales to invest in currencies that they deem as good and future-proof. If they want to go back, they can simply claim their NXTs (if the currency is claimable).


I would like to stress this again:

NXT will be fuel currency of the Nxt ecosystem. People will pay NXT to forgers (as they do now) in order to get transactions verified. Forgers will sell NXT to people in exchange for currencies. So, there will be a market that determines the price of NXT.
Logged

ChuckOne

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +293/-17
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3450
  • ☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #84 on: November 08, 2014, 10:23:37 am »

What happens when MS becomes very popular and a basket of currencies have been issued with a total reserve of 900 Million NXT and all reserved NXT have been locked? Since locked NXT are excluded from effective balance, we're left with only 100M NXT effective balance for forging and securing the network. What happens if all NXT have been locked?

Its a good point and we need to think about it. We already have this problem to lesser extent whenever we lock unconfirmed balance, for example with the asset exchange. what if people place bid orders which are not executed yet for 900M this also locks NXT.

I think that if only 100M NXT are left people would have better chance of forging and therefore they have incentive to claim their currency reserves or exchange the currency back to NXT but this does not prevent denial of service.

People can forge even with 1000 NXT that is distributed over 100 people.

1000 NXT is only $20 with current prices. How can that secure the entire network?

Also what happens when the market cap of a MS currency rises above NXT, for example to $100 million. Now the $100 million is secured with $20 million of NXT. The MS currency could be attacked, which would bring the price down. This mechanism is not as "smooth" as the mechanism where the rising price of NXT makes the network more secure. Somehow MS seems to go against the principle of Proof of Stake.

Why should 1000 NXTs only cost $20?

1,000,000,000 NXTs costs ¢2 each with 1,000,000,000 NXTs in existence.

The price of a single NXT will heavily increase if there were only 1000 NXTs in existence.
Logged

Pouncer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Karma: +30/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 65
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #85 on: November 08, 2014, 10:55:31 am »


ChuckOne, thank you for the clarifications. I'm not good at understanding cryptic responses.

I hope your above 2 statements are correct, because they contradict links I referred to in the points I raised.

cfb,

How does the tx for these sub currency work? Let's say X currency is created and i did a transaction with that currency. Will the tx be in NXT or X currency? Let's say the worst case scenario, all the existing nxt's has been locked with a multiple new currencies X,Y,Z etc.  (there will be no more  nxt exist outside the system), So imo the tx would not be in nxt but individual currencies. Is the nxt platform capable enough to handle all the different types of currency txs at one go?

In X. Yes, capable.

Okay, CfB is not referring to fee.


Would be interesting to know who is that whale that sells NXT right before 1.3...

Yesterday a lead developer of NXT was putting down whales, said he will launch a new currency, and let NXT go down in value.

Same as a CEO putting down the largest investors, because they don't work actively in the company, or do not donate stock to grow the company, and saying he will launch a new company, and let the current company go down in value.

When confronted with the fact that (large) investors already add value by simply remaining invested in the company, his defense was that it was the original plan all along and large investors are free to leave ...

You know how considerate CfB sometimes can be. MS will create opportunities for whales to invest in currencies that they deem as good and future-proof. If they want to go back, they can simply claim their NXTs (if the currency is claimable).


I would like to stress this again:

NXT will be fuel currency of the Nxt ecosystem. People will pay NXT to forgers (as they do now) in order to get transactions verified. Forgers will sell NXT to people in exchange for currencies. So, there will be a market that determines the price of NXT.
Logged

Jean-Luc

  • Core Dev
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +816/-81
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1610
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #86 on: November 08, 2014, 10:57:57 am »

We already have this problem to lesser extent whenever we lock unconfirmed balance, for example with the asset exchange.
I don't think so, guaranteed balance used for forging is calculated based on confirmed balance. Bids and other transactions that reserve a balance (e.g. DGS purchase) do it against unconfirmed balance only.
Logged
GPG key fingerprint: 263A 9EB0 29CF C77A 3D06  FD13 811D 6940 E1E4 240C
NXT-X4LF-9A4G-WN9Z-2R322

ChuckOne

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +293/-17
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3450
  • ☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #87 on: November 08, 2014, 11:03:08 am »

ChuckOne, thank you for the clarifications. I'm not good at understanding cryptic responses.

You are always welcome. :)
Logged

Darkhorse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +61/-8
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1016
  • Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #88 on: November 08, 2014, 11:53:14 am »

Quote
If they want to go back, they can simply claim their NXTs (if the currency is claimable).

This is what i understood as well. Once locked, one can only unlock it back but cannot relock them. This makes sense when a currency issued on MS increases this value, you can unlock certain amount to reduce the value of that MS currency to make it standalone or independant.

But what i am interested to know is how flexible tx will work with MS.
Logged
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬  ▄▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▄  ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬●  nimirum  ●▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
▬▬▬ ◖ENDING CENSHORSIP ONLINE◗  ◖ ICO OPEN NOW◗ ▬▬▬

ChuckOne

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +293/-17
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3450
  • ☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #89 on: November 08, 2014, 12:56:58 pm »

This is what i understood as well. Once locked, one can only unlock it back but cannot relock them. This makes sense when a currency issued on MS increases this value, you can unlock certain amount to reduce the value of that MS currency to make it standalone or independant.

I doubt you decrease the value when reclaiming your NXTs. I guess it will increase the value of the remaining currency units.

But what i am interested to know is how flexible tx will work with MS.

What exactly do you have in mind? You can transfer currency units and trade them against NXT.
Logged

Riker

  • Core Dev
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +440/-42
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1796
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #90 on: November 08, 2014, 01:31:01 pm »

Folks, we need a couple of days to review the code for the reserbable currency behavior and its effect on the NXT supply and understand all the implications. We'll then come up with an update.

Just to clarify points from the above discussion:
1. Indeed fees are always paid in NXT regardless of the transaction type.
2. The example I provided about locking NXT when issuing Bid Order was inaccurate. When you issue a bid order you are locking your unconfirmed balance but you can still forge as if you poses the total balance. Perhaps the solution to the reservable issue will be similar.
Logged
NXT Core Dev
Account: NXT-HBFW-X8TE-WXPW-DZFAG
Public Key: D8311651 Key fingerprint: 0560 443B 035C EE08 0EC0  D2DD 275E 94A7 D831 1651

Darkhorse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +61/-8
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1016
  • Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #91 on: November 08, 2014, 01:38:03 pm »

This is what i understood as well. Once locked, one can only unlock it back but cannot relock them. This makes sense when a currency issued on MS increases this value, you can unlock certain amount to reduce the value of that MS currency to make it standalone or independant.

I doubt you decrease the value when reclaiming your NXTs. I guess it will increase the value of the remaining currency units.

But what i am interested to know is how flexible tx will work with MS.

What exactly do you have in mind? You can transfer currency units and trade them against NXT.

Will the nxt tx will be adjusted accordingly to the amount a currency is spent or a standard nxt tx for any amount of currency is spent?
Logged
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬  ▄▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▄  ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬●  nimirum  ●▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
▬▬▬ ◖ENDING CENSHORSIP ONLINE◗  ◖ ICO OPEN NOW◗ ▬▬▬

ChuckOne

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +293/-17
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3450
  • ☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #92 on: November 08, 2014, 01:42:27 pm »

Will the nxt tx will be adjusted accordingly to the amount a currency is spent or a standard nxt tx for any amount of currency is spent?

Sorry, I still do not understand. Transactions cannot be adjusted because you have to sign them with your private key.

Do you want to know if the internal structure of transactions have been changed?
« Last Edit: November 08, 2014, 01:49:56 pm by ChuckOne »
Logged

Darkhorse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +61/-8
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1016
  • Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #93 on: November 08, 2014, 02:03:39 pm »

Will the nxt tx will be adjusted accordingly to the amount a currency is spent or a standard nxt tx for any amount of currency is spent?

Sorry, I still do not understand. Transactions cannot be adjusted because you have to sign them with your private key.

Do you want to know if the internal structure of transactions have been changed?

Here is a scenario,

Let's say we created a currency on MS named Crack. For the start, every transaction will use 1 NXT, does not matter 1 Crack or 10,000 Crack. But will this be adjusted in the future, let's say 0.001 nxt for amount smaller than 100 Cracks, 0.01 nxt for 1000 Cracks etc Or will it stay at 1 NXT for any amount spent using Crack.

Sorry to trouble you chuck, but there is a consideration issuing ORA a MS token, so if possible would like to know more in depth about the Monetary System.

Also the question of, will the users of MS will be able to purchase Assets or any other features of NXT, let's say aliases.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2014, 02:05:45 pm by Darkhorse »
Logged
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬  ▄▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▄  ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬●  nimirum  ●▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
▬▬▬ ◖ENDING CENSHORSIP ONLINE◗  ◖ ICO OPEN NOW◗ ▬▬▬

gs02xzz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +56/-12
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1101
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #94 on: November 08, 2014, 02:33:22 pm »

Will exchangeable and claimable be the attributes for each currency of MS or just options which the issuers will have to choose to have them or not when issuing the currency?
Logged
Nxt Mission is to commercialize the crypto technology and build new commerce and society.

ChuckOne

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +293/-17
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3450
  • ☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #95 on: November 08, 2014, 04:02:24 pm »

Let's say we created a currency on MS named Crack. For the start, every transaction will use 1 NXT, does not matter 1 Crack or 10,000 Crack. But will this be adjusted in the future, let's say 0.001 nxt for amount smaller than 100 Cracks, 0.01 nxt for 1000 Cracks etc Or will it stay at 1 NXT for any amount spent using Crack.

That makes it clear to me. Thank you. The fee problem is a general problem to Nxt. Our current idea is that fees should reflect the value of a transaction for the entire ecosystem.

That said, only its size (in bytes) and type of transaction (reserving an alias vs issuing an asset vs payment etc.) will make a difference in fee. That is because when I issue an asset I basically remove a name from the available namespace, so I need to charged more for it than when paying somebody 5 units of whatever. The size is important because the more bytes a transaction has, the more it occupies the pipeline, the bandwidth, the cpu and so on.

So, in your example the fee will stay constant.

Sorry to trouble you chuck, but there is a consideration issuing ORA a MS token, so if possible would like to know more in depth about the Monetary System.

That is a valid concern. Go ahead and ask more questions. :)

Also the question of, will the users of MS will be able to purchase Assets or any other features of NXT, let's say aliases.

From what I can see in the implementation, no. Right now users cannot purchase Nxt things in a trustless way but we will enable these things in the future.

@Lior
Can you confirm this thus far?
Logged

ChuckOne

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +293/-17
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3450
  • ☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #96 on: November 08, 2014, 04:05:15 pm »

Will exchangeable and claimable be the attributes for each currency of MS or just options which the issuers will have to choose to have them or not when issuing the currency?

Right now, these are optional attributes. What is your stance here?
Logged

gs02xzz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +56/-12
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1101
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #97 on: November 08, 2014, 10:21:38 pm »

Will exchangeable and claimable be the attributes for each currency of MS or just options which the issuers will have to choose to have them or not when issuing the currency?
Right now, these are optional attributes. What is your stance here?

Optional is probably not a bad idea. The market will decide which one fits most.
Logged
Nxt Mission is to commercialize the crypto technology and build new commerce and society.

Riker

  • Core Dev
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +440/-42
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1796
    • View Profile
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #98 on: November 09, 2014, 06:21:36 am »

Currently. MS currencies cannot be used for AE or alias transactions, this might be supported in the future
Logged
NXT Core Dev
Account: NXT-HBFW-X8TE-WXPW-DZFAG
Public Key: D8311651 Key fingerprint: 0560 443B 035C EE08 0EC0  D2DD 275E 94A7 D831 1651

landomata

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +121/-26
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1535
    • View Profile
    • Newbium
Re: Monetary System documentation
« Reply #99 on: November 09, 2014, 07:15:21 am »


So, in your example the fee will stay constant.


Can you please point me to a clear discussion on when the fees will change & what they will be?

Can you also provide breakdown on how this fee per transaction size will look.



Thanks.
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 8  All
 

elective-stereophonic
elective-stereophonic
assembly
assembly