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Nxt Discussion => Nxt Projects => Jinn => Topic started by: Come-from-Beyond on January 03, 2015, 01:30:08 pm

Title: City in the sky
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on January 03, 2015, 01:30:08 pm
I created this thread to brainstorm solutions that could lead to building of a city for Jinn-powered micro-robots.

Imagine robots that are very light and autonomous. Such robots could fly to the sky and form colonies. Atmosphere is not inhabited by humans and seems to be a safe place for the robots. They could provide different services like data broadcasting and live in symbiosis with humans.

Why Jinn is suitable for them:
- it's designed to consume as little energy as possible
- it's designed to be very durable
- it will be very small if manufactured with modern technological process

Now we need to list possible problems and how to solve them.
Title: Re: City in the sky
Post by: Darkhorse on January 03, 2015, 01:39:22 pm
1) air traffic control? robot tower control?
2) Multiple What if situations for faulty robots flying in the sky?
3) Jurisdiction - spy act laws?
Title: Re: City in the sky
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on January 03, 2015, 01:48:03 pm
1) air traffic control? robot tower control?
2) Multiple What if situations for faulty robots flying in the sky?
3) Jurisdiction - spy act laws?

Faulty robots can be considered as malevolent robots. Traffic control assumes that robots are controlled by someone, I prefer a completely decentralized city. Regarding jurisdiction - f*ck laws, just find a way to protect the city from U.S.Army drones.
Title: Re: City in the sky
Post by: capodieci on January 03, 2015, 01:58:55 pm
To OP: we sponsored this animation for this genius and brave young guy, maybe you two should have a chat :)

http://youtu.be/lll8GYSl82U

From mobile

Title: Re: City in the sky
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on January 03, 2015, 02:03:34 pm
To OP: we sponsored this animation for this genius and brave young guy, maybe you two should have a chat :)

http://youtu.be/lll8GYSl82U

From mobile

They use a jinn too, funny coincidence.

PS: The sound of the pencil scratching the paper doesn't let me to keep the sound on, luckily pictures are self-explaining.
Title: Re: City in the sky
Post by: chanc3r on January 03, 2015, 02:05:55 pm
1. Maintaining location is energy consuming - so assume colonies are uniformly accessible in the cloud? real cloud ;) so location is not an issue...
2. Assuming colony specialisation then the ability/bandwidth for one part of the robot cloud to relay services to another part within range of the service user.
3. Succession - upper atmosphere is a harsh environment if robot fails the the cloud should be able to self heal
4. Attack by rival robot cloud services or other malicious entities - so need defense robots
5. Self replication - to be completely decentralised robots should be able to mine new ones from old or any passing aircraft etc
Title: Re: City in the sky
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on January 03, 2015, 02:10:22 pm
5. Self replication - to be completely decentralised robots should be able to mine new ones from old or any passing aircraft etc

I doubt robots could manufacture chips.

"From any passing aircrafts" haha, it's a good scenario for a Hollywood horror movie.
Title: Re: City in the sky
Post by: Buratino on January 03, 2015, 03:07:31 pm
(http://i58.tinypic.com/335a4hx.jpg)
Title: Re: City in the sky
Post by: gs02xzz on January 03, 2015, 03:08:41 pm
Will the colonies be like very high towers or something floating in the sky?
Title: Re: City in the sky
Post by: humbot on January 03, 2015, 03:15:15 pm
How small? How high? Time frame? Something a little bit different - meshed cyborg insects.
Bees
http://www.rfidjournal.com/lib/x/a/assets/2014/02/OIF-2.jpg
Moths
http://www.computerworld.com/article/2598546/emerging-technology/cyborg-moths-could-act-like-living-drones-in-search-and-rescue.html
Title: Re: City in the sky
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on January 03, 2015, 03:20:25 pm
Will the colonies be like very high towers or something floating in the sky?

No idea, depends on how you program your microbot.
Title: Re: City in the sky
Post by: achim on January 03, 2015, 03:24:18 pm
weather conditions could be a problem if the CfBots are solar powered planes with propeller motor
Title: Re: City in the sky
Post by: achim on January 03, 2015, 03:29:27 pm
Or maybe solar powered ballons in the stratosphere with hydrogen fuel cells would be more suitable?
Title: Re: City in the sky
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on January 03, 2015, 03:30:09 pm
How small? How high? Time frame? Something a little bit different - meshed cyborg insects.
Bees
http://www.rfidjournal.com/lib/x/a/assets/2014/02/OIF-2.jpg
Moths
http://www.computerworld.com/article/2598546/emerging-technology/cyborg-moths-could-act-like-living-drones-in-search-and-rescue.html

A baloon filled with hydrogen can be used to lift a bot into stratosphere:

1. Releasing and filling the baloon is used to go lower/higher.
2. Lost hydrogen is generated by applying current on water in the air.

Specialization of robots may be required for better efficiency of the colony. Some robots condense water from air, some disassemble it into hydrogen and oxygen, and so on.
Title: Re: City in the sky
Post by: Peter2516 on January 03, 2015, 03:31:56 pm
Maybe they should go down, not up. More minerals to mine for selfreplicating 8).
Title: Re: City in the sky
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on January 03, 2015, 03:32:17 pm
weather conditions could be a problem if the CfBots are solar powered planes with propeller motor

Clouds provide much more energy than the sun. The only problem is to stay away of thunderbolts.
Title: Re: City in the sky
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on January 03, 2015, 03:34:04 pm
Maybe they should go down, not up. More minerals to mine for selfreplicating 8).

The city may work as a trampoline to the outerspace. But we need to create something like the pic below for that:

(http://w1.nst.com.my/polopoly_fs/1.203776.1358510908!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_454/image.jpg)
Title: Re: City in the sky
Post by: bitcoinpaul on January 03, 2015, 03:35:10 pm
If I understand it correctly, this topic isn't tied to only jinn-related robot cities. U get almost the same principles, ideas and problems with non-jinn architecture, right?
Title: Re: City in the sky
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on January 03, 2015, 03:36:48 pm
If I understand it correctly, this topic isn't tied to only jinn-related robot cities. U get almost the same principles, ideas and problems with non-jinn architecture, right?

Jinn is designed for aerospace also, not only gamedev.
Title: Re: City in the sky
Post by: gs02xzz on January 03, 2015, 03:41:17 pm
How do you overcome the gravity?
Title: Re: City in the sky
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on January 03, 2015, 03:42:09 pm
How do you overcome the gravity?

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/2006_Ojiya_balloon_festival_011.jpg)
Title: Re: City in the sky
Post by: crimi on January 03, 2015, 06:41:55 pm
Reminds me a little bit on marine coin! If there is a contest for creativity, they would be top 3.
I dont get why people are excited about some hash stakes and a coin where you "can" pay at amazon... this is the real stuff where dreams are made of. 
The City in the sky and Jinn-HashPower Baloon is good competition.  :D

http://www.marinecoin.org/#!marinecoin-city/c18ti (enjoy)

Marinecoin City Project, The Ultimate City for the Ultimate People.

(http://static.wixstatic.com/media/74d060_5de05aedf7e84bc6945aab83873c6314.jpg_srz_p_396_204_75_22_0.50_1.20_0.00_jpg_srz)

The World's Biggest Mega Yacht, M/Y MARINECOIN-HASHPOWER

(http://static.wixstatic.com/media/74d060_f45a06d8998c4aa89a82810547e675d0.jpg_srz_p_400_300_75_22_0.50_1.20_0.00_jpg_srz)
Title: Re: City in the sky
Post by: ricky.scribz on January 04, 2015, 01:28:40 am
A new weather network, with mass distributed nodes. This could even get into pollution levels or reduced ozone zones, providing an up to date incredibly accurate picture of the potential dangers for us humanoids... Grab air samples to locate the source of polluters.. Beyond that slap some cameras on them to trace animal populations, whalers/poachers, plankton levels, atmospheric light reflection, ice coverage. Magnetometer for weakened magnetic zones, could provide the best spots to view aurora...  much potential
Title: Re: City in the sky
Post by: Jimmy2011 on January 04, 2015, 04:20:04 am
A new weather network, with mass distributed nodes. This could even get into pollution levels or reduced ozone zones, providing an up to date incredibly accurate picture of the potential dangers for us humanoids... Grab air samples to locate the source of polluters.. Beyond that slap some cameras on them to trace animal populations, whalers/poachers, plankton levels, atmospheric light reflection, ice coverage. Magnetometer for weakened magnetic zones, could provide the best spots to view aurora...  much potential

It's so great for human!
Title: Re: City in the sky
Post by: jones on January 07, 2015, 03:34:37 am
Wouldn't it be more energy efficient to have the bots in orbit around earth. That way they dont need to worry about staying afloat.
Title: Re: City in the sky
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on January 07, 2015, 08:38:14 am
Wouldn't it be more energy efficient to have the bots in orbit around earth. That way they dont need to worry about staying afloat.

You must find a way to speed up a bot to 8 km/s for that.
Title: Re: City in the sky
Post by: blackyblack1 on January 07, 2015, 11:46:55 am
Wouldn't it be more energy efficient to have the bots in orbit around earth. That way they dont need to worry about staying afloat.

You must find a way to speed up a bot to 8 km/s for that.
This is usually being made with rockets. Just ask nearby cosmonaut to drop your bot on the orbit.
Title: Re: City in the sky
Post by: youyou on January 07, 2015, 11:51:45 am
a satellite needs energy in order to stay in orbit. If he doesn't correct his trajectory periodically, it hits the ground after some months/years.
Title: Re: City in the sky
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on January 07, 2015, 11:59:16 am
a satellite needs energy in order to stay in orbit. If he doesn't correct his trajectory periodically, it hits the ground after some months/years.

For small bots it's not a problem with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_thruster.
Title: Re: City in the sky
Post by: youyou on January 07, 2015, 12:07:16 pm
a satellite needs energy in order to stay in orbit. If he doesn't correct his trajectory periodically, it hits the ground after some months/years.

For small bots it's not a problem with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_thruster.

no contradiction with y post :)  just wanted to point out it's not as simple as it appears.
Title: Re: City in the sky
Post by: ricky.scribz on January 09, 2015, 09:53:31 pm
What about a helium/air subspace (air submarine). It's not invented yet AFAIK, but sounds plausible based on a submarine working. It would need a compressor and some controllable check valves, probably some more stuff I have no technical knowledge of...

This would give you the ability to control elevation..
Title: Re: City in the sky
Post by: Come-from-Beyond on January 09, 2015, 09:57:40 pm
What about a helium/air subspace (air submarine). It's not invented yet AFAIK, but sounds plausible based on a submarine working. It would need a compressor and some controllable check valves, probably some more stuff I have no technical knowledge of...

This would give you the ability to control elevation..

Sounds as a zeppelin.
Title: Re: City in the sky
Post by: ricky.scribz on January 10, 2015, 01:09:04 am
What about a helium/air subspace (air submarine). It's not invented yet AFAIK, but sounds plausible based on a submarine working. It would need a compressor and some controllable check valves, probably some more stuff I have no technical knowledge of...

This would give you the ability to control elevation..

Sounds as a zeppelin.

You're right! Surprised I didn't remember them, played a lot of the early warcraft games :P. There's inert helium that could be used, with new materials better than " intestines of cattle."[1] Since there's no passengers and I assume very small there shouldn't be much problems, other than airspace restrictions...

wiki zeppelin[1]
Title: Re: City in the sky
Post by: sparta_cuss on January 11, 2015, 06:27:42 pm
I ran across this academic paper and thought it might inspire some ideas for the city in the sky.

"Abstract— This paper addresses the self-assembly of a large
team of autonomous boats into floating platforms. We describe
the design of individual boats, the systems concept, the algorithms,
the software architecture and experimental results
with prototypes that are 1:12 scale realizations of modified
ISO shipping containers, with the goal of demonstrating selfassembly
into large maritime structures such as air strips,
bridges, harbors or sea bases. Each container is a robotic
module capable of holonomic motion that can dock in a
brick pattern to form arbitrary shapes. Over 60 modules
were built of varying capability. The docking mechanism is
designed to be robust to large disturbances that can be expected
in the high seas. The docking mechanism also incorporates
adjustable stiffness so that the conglomerate can comply to
waves representative of sea state three, and have the ability to
dynamically stiffen as required. The component modules for
autonomous assembly, docking and simultaneous collision-free
planning as well as the software architecture are presented
along with the description of experimental verification."

Full article: http://www.seas.upenn.edu/~juse/dtemp_full.pdf
Title: Re: City in the sky
Post by: Fatih87SK on January 12, 2015, 02:45:26 pm
Research Priorities for Robust and Beneficial Artificial Intelligence;

http://futureoflife.org/misc/open_letter (http://futureoflife.org/misc/open_letter)

Title: Re: City in the sky
Post by: lopalcar on January 15, 2015, 09:05:14 am
How about stick them in a bird?  :P
They already live in symbiosis with humans and you don't need very advanced  tech
Study the different kind of birds and choose what specie fill your needs, there are birds which live always fliying: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_swift :)
Maybe you don't need them to be autonomous, could be enought if you think in the birds behavior and spread the robots according
Title: Re: City in the sky
Post by: ricky.scribz on January 19, 2015, 01:21:32 am
I thought of this too but was worried about lightning from metal implants, collars or whatever is used. It could be interesting though, there was a crow vending machine made in 2008 with TED talk(can't link). They have similar intelligence to chimpanzees apparently. They could hunt pennies, cigarette butts, garbage and probably many more interesting acts for food. So if this is possible, we could push it to the limits where birds run missions for food. It would be hilarious if this sparked an animal integrated economy.

PS. I'm not approving of implants, seems intrusive.

PSS. Google: "bacteria in the atmosphere." There's bacteria living @ 33000 ft, and molecular sized machines are in development. Could be another route.
Title: Re: City in the sky
Post by: gs02xzz on January 20, 2015, 01:38:44 am

interesting Space Internet project - http://www.geekwire.com/2015/photos-spacex-founder-elon-musk-unveils-new-10b-space-internet-plan-private-seattle-event/
Title: Re: City in the sky
Post by: Triangle on January 24, 2015, 05:15:11 pm

interesting Space Internet project - http://www.geekwire.com/2015/photos-spacex-founder-elon-musk-unveils-new-10b-space-internet-plan-private-seattle-event/

For sure. There's been quite a lot of these global internet initiatives in the last year. Google's Project Loon, then there is Internet.org, Richard Branson and Virgins space-satellite project and now finally Elon Musk and Space X. Definitely promising
Title: Re: City in the sky
Post by: gs02xzz on April 18, 2015, 09:34:42 pm
Google's project Loon - Ballon powered Internet for everyone - http://www.google.com/loon/
Title: Re: City in the sky
Post by: smartwart on April 19, 2015, 02:50:56 pm
fascinating.


But anyone knows how may balloons are needed to get a gap less network?
Cause of the different wind directions you need a statistically relevant amount of balloons.
And how many devices can be connect to one balloon and still working proper?


What is about the latency increase and speed decrease per balloon from the provider station?
Currently we are connected directly with the provider station...

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