Nxt Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Latest Nxt Client 1.11.10 - NEW RELEASE: Ardor 2.0.5e TestNet - The Ignis ICO is over!! Ardor genesis snapshots will happen at Nxt block 1,630,000 (expected for 25th December)

Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 5  All

Author Topic: Supporting NSC with InfFund  (Read 8697 times)

devphp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1229
    • View Profile
  • Karma: +87/-14
Supporting NSC with InfFund
July 20, 2014, 03:14:12 pm

I propose InfFund create a large buy order for NSC asset.

100 000 x 1 NXT would be a reasonable price that wouldn't hurt InfFund balance and would last a few months, giving more boost to decentralization of the network. Buy orders are drying up, someone has to step in, InfFund seems like that's what it was designed for. Thoughts?

Berzerk

  • Ex-Staff Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1530
    • View Profile
  • Karma: +118/-40
Re: Supporting NSC with InfFund
July 20, 2014, 03:17:33 pm

Yea, but make it in steps. New approvement every month.

Come-from-Beyond

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4014
    • View Profile
  • Karma: +793/-671
Re: Supporting NSC with InfFund
July 20, 2014, 03:18:11 pm

Don't spend money. If Nxt is doomed to die coz of small number of nodes then let it happen earlier.

devphp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1229
    • View Profile
  • Karma: +87/-14
Re: Supporting NSC with InfFund
July 20, 2014, 03:19:21 pm

Don't spend money. If Nxt is doomed to die coz of small number of nodes then let it happen earlier.

What would that money be for if NXT died? :)

Damelon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2307
    • View Profile
    • Nxt Inside
  • Karma: +792/-53
Re: Supporting NSC with InfFund
July 20, 2014, 03:21:14 pm

Don't spend money. If Nxt is doomed to die coz of small number of nodes then let it happen earlier.

"Doomed" presupposes a deterministic world view :)

I do not hold such a work view, and adhere to a view where actions have a definite effect on changing what the future will be.

Like investing in NSC to make setting up and running nodes more interesting in the short run ;)
Member of the Nxt Foundation | Donations: NXT-D6K7-MLY6-98FM-FLL5T
Join Nxt Slack! https://nxtchat.herokuapp.com/
Founder of Blockchain Workspace | Personal Site & Blog

devphp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1229
    • View Profile
  • Karma: +87/-14
Re: Supporting NSC with InfFund
July 20, 2014, 03:26:02 pm

Yea, but make it in steps. New approvement every month.

Alright, good idea. So 1 NXT is a reasonable price unless someone has objections? The order can be set at 10 000 NSCs, and when it's done, the next buy order's price can be adjusted to price of NXT on the market.

anon136

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1015
    • View Profile
  • Karma: +86/-19
Re: Supporting NSC with InfFund
July 20, 2014, 03:48:19 pm

No i think the network is plenty secure from attack in its present form.

EvilDave

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1791
    • View Profile
    • NXT Foundation
  • Karma: +341/-40
Re: Supporting NSC with InfFund
July 20, 2014, 04:24:19 pm

No i think the network is plenty secure from attack in its present form.

Agreeing......but more is better, especially for the future, and implementing TF.

I don't like the idea of propping up NSC with buy orders, tbh, maybe a better approach would be to introduce a dividend payout on NSC, related to NXTwork performance......
Nulli Dei, nulli Reges, solum NXT
NXT Donations: NXT-BNZB-9V8M-XRPW-3S3WD
We will ride eternal, shiny and chrome!

cobaltskky

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2346
  • To make more better goodness.
    • View Profile
    • NXT Film Project
  • Karma: +226/-138
Re: Supporting NSC with InfFund
July 20, 2014, 04:25:50 pm

I propose InfFund create a large buy order for NSC asset.

100 000 x 1 NXT would be a reasonable price that wouldn't hurt InfFund balance and would last a few months, giving more boost to decentralization of the network. Buy orders are drying up, someone has to step in, InfFund seems like that's what it was designed for. Thoughts?

Thanks for posting this Dev!  So, are you suggesting setting the buy order at 1 NSC = 1 NXT?  Seems low to me - it costs roughly $5 per month to run a node on Digital Ocean.  I'd like to see NSC at least payback the node operator.  I need to run it by Eb how much we give to node operators - it's calculated based on the amount of NXT in the associated account.  Once I know that, maybe we can come up with an equitable number of NXT for the buy order?

To use my own distribution as an example:

I received 4 NSC for each of my nodes this week.  I would receive 16 NSC at this rate over four distributions(~1 month).  At today's rates(assuming I sell for 1NSC = 1NXT), I would receive 16 NXT per months, which equates to about $1 USD per month.  That doesn't even cover the hosting.  Granted - if I had greater than 10000NXT in my account, I would receive a larger amount.  Once I hear back from Ebby, we can go through the calculations again under the assumption that the hallmark holder as 10000+ NXT.

At my calculations above, 5NXT per NSC is a fair price - which is about where it's hovering at right now.  However, we don't have many buyers, which is concerning(and, I think, the purpose of this proposal).

Also, we have the ability to lower the cap on forgers.  We removed the cap on hallmarked nodes because we want to focus on infrastructure expansion more than on people necessarily forging blocks(who already get rewarded for their forging).  If the commitee thinks it prudent, we could lower the cap to encourage more "noding" than more "forging". :)

To respond to anon136, it's not about securing the network from attack so much as growing the infrastructure so that we have a solid base to launch features from.  If we had a mad rush to begin using features, could our network accommodate it?  Or let's say we had a mad rush, and a malicious agent decided to attack the network:  what if they attacked the majority of our nodes.  With only ~300 full-time nodes, I think there's a very real concern that the number of targets they would need to compromise/incapacitate is small compared to the NXT marketcap.  It's about risk mitigation.
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬  ▄▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▄  ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬●  nimirum  ●▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
▬▬▬ ◖ENDING CENSHORSIP ONLINE◗  ◖ ICO OPEN NOW◗ ▬▬▬

devphp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1229
    • View Profile
  • Karma: +87/-14
Re: Supporting NSC with InfFund
July 20, 2014, 04:32:32 pm

Thanks for posting this Dev!  So, are you suggesting setting the buy order at 1 NSC = 1 NXT?  Seems low to me - it costs roughly $5 per month to run a node on Digital Ocean.

Yeah, it's low, but it'd be the buy order of last resort, if all others stop buying. Forgers get NXTs in fees (although these will be reduced when minimum fee is reduced), so NSC for forgers is a bonus.

Perhaps you and ebby should think about distributing more NSC to hallmarked nodes, so they can get more funding via NSC, doubling current payouts just for hallmarked nodes?

Setting a higher price on NSC would make the InfFund run out of funds sooner, have to find a balance here. I thought 1 NXT per NSC would be prudent and InfFund wouldn't have objections, but if they feel generous, sure everyone would love to have the price set higher :)

anon136

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1015
    • View Profile
  • Karma: +86/-19
Re: Supporting NSC with InfFund
July 20, 2014, 04:33:31 pm

No i think the network is plenty secure from attack in its present form.

Agreeing......but more is better, especially for the future, and implementing TF.

I don't like the idea of propping up NSC with buy orders, tbh, maybe a better approach would be to introduce a dividend payout on NSC, related to NXTwork performance......

I don’t think the question up for debate is not whether it would be nice if the network were stronger. I think the question is whether this is the best possible application of scarce resources.

devphp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1229
    • View Profile
  • Karma: +87/-14
Re: Supporting NSC with InfFund
July 20, 2014, 04:44:41 pm

Anyway, InfFund's funds shouldn't be the ultimate incentive to run nodes and forge, the rising price of NXT and services running on nodes and fees collected from those should be the incentive in the future as per BCNext(?), but while the network is in bootstrapping phase and while those plans haven't been implemented yet, there is no point in not spending at least some of the funds of InfFund to grow the network.

cobaltskky

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2346
  • To make more better goodness.
    • View Profile
    • NXT Film Project
  • Karma: +226/-138
Re: Supporting NSC with InfFund
July 20, 2014, 04:55:29 pm

Anyway, InfFund's funds shouldn't be the ultimate incentive to run nodes and forge, the rising price of NXT and services running on nodes and fees collected from those should be the incentive in the future as per BCNext(?), but while the network is in bootstrapping phase and while those plans haven't been implemented yet, there is no point in not spending at least some of the funds of InfFund to grow the network.

Agreed, I see what you mean.  This would be a buy wall to incentivize holding the NSC for longer, until such time that the value of NXT has increased.  I like that idea - I'd go forward with 1 NXT per NSC for now.

I'll discuss with Ebby the payout for Hallmarked nodes, and let you guys know what we decide. :)

I still say the NXT whales need to get on this to help increase the price and get more nodes running. ;)  A like the idea of the buy wall as the "last ditch effort" to keep the NSC value from collapsing. :)
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬  ▄▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▄  ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬●  nimirum  ●▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
▬▬▬ ◖ENDING CENSHORSIP ONLINE◗  ◖ ICO OPEN NOW◗ ▬▬▬

Come-from-Beyond

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4014
    • View Profile
  • Karma: +793/-671
Re: Supporting NSC with InfFund
July 20, 2014, 05:42:36 pm

I still say the NXT whales need to get on this to help increase the price and get more nodes running.

And again I have a non-orthodox opinion. :) I think that whales shouldn't subsidize growth of Nxt network. This is Sparta.

cobaltskky

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2346
  • To make more better goodness.
    • View Profile
    • NXT Film Project
  • Karma: +226/-138
Re: Supporting NSC with InfFund
July 20, 2014, 06:41:32 pm

I still say the NXT whales need to get on this to help increase the price and get more nodes running.

And again I have a non-orthodox opinion. :) I think that whales shouldn't subsidize growth of Nxt network. This is Sparta.

Unorthodoxy is good. ;)  Who do you think should be subsidizing the NXT infrastructure?
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬  ▄▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▄  ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬●  nimirum  ●▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
▬▬▬ ◖ENDING CENSHORSIP ONLINE◗  ◖ ICO OPEN NOW◗ ▬▬▬

devphp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1229
    • View Profile
  • Karma: +87/-14
Re: Supporting NSC with InfFund
July 20, 2014, 06:52:19 pm

I think that whales shouldn't subsidize growth of Nxt network. This is Sparta.

But who can stop them? :D

Come-from-Beyond

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4014
    • View Profile
  • Karma: +793/-671
Re: Supporting NSC with InfFund
July 20, 2014, 06:55:45 pm

Who do you think should be subsidizing the NXT infrastructure?

It should be companies that use Nxt to secure the network.

Damelon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2307
    • View Profile
    • Nxt Inside
  • Karma: +792/-53
Re: Supporting NSC with InfFund
July 20, 2014, 07:07:23 pm

Who do you think should be subsidizing the NXT infrastructure?

It should be companies that use Nxt to secure the network.

On this, we agree.
I never understood this pre-occupation with "the whales".
They already played their part, which largely was to receive the Nxt so the first distribution could actually take place.
Over time, the system should be sustained by those that profit the most from it: the businesses.

Let's not hunt whales, in real life ánd in crypto! :'(
Member of the Nxt Foundation | Donations: NXT-D6K7-MLY6-98FM-FLL5T
Join Nxt Slack! https://nxtchat.herokuapp.com/
Founder of Blockchain Workspace | Personal Site & Blog

cobaltskky

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2346
  • To make more better goodness.
    • View Profile
    • NXT Film Project
  • Karma: +226/-138
Re: Supporting NSC with InfFund
July 20, 2014, 07:10:54 pm

Okay, okay, no whale hunting. lol  What other avenues can we explore to get the infrastructure subsidized?  Let me put it this way: what good is having software if you can't run it anything? lol  We need a de-centralized web of dedicated nodes with 99.99% uptime, right?  Or am I off base on how critical it is to have nodes as the user base/feature set increases?
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬  ▄▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▄  ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬●  nimirum  ●▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
▬▬▬ ◖ENDING CENSHORSIP ONLINE◗  ◖ ICO OPEN NOW◗ ▬▬▬

Damelon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2307
    • View Profile
    • Nxt Inside
  • Karma: +792/-53
Re: Supporting NSC with InfFund
July 20, 2014, 07:16:41 pm

Okay, okay, no whale hunting. lol  What other avenues can we explore to get the infrastructure subsidized?  Let me put it this way: what good is having software if you can't run it anything? lol  We need a de-centralized web of dedicated nodes with 99.99% uptime, right?  Or am I off base on how critical it is to have nodes as the user base/feature set increases?

Ask the InfCom Committee!  ;D

They get access to a sizeable fund again, one of these day, I hear!  ;)
Member of the Nxt Foundation | Donations: NXT-D6K7-MLY6-98FM-FLL5T
Join Nxt Slack! https://nxtchat.herokuapp.com/
Founder of Blockchain Workspace | Personal Site & Blog
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 5  All