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Author Topic: Suggestion to create a bounty to reward leasing forging hubs  (Read 2862 times)

gs02xzz

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It seems that the main barrier to implement the TF is the lack of a healthy hubs/leasing forging nodes network for Nxt. C-f-B has mentioned this issues in several occasions. The most recently one is here  - https://nxtforum.org/news-and-announcements/economic-clustering/

I think Infras Committee can help out with this issue. I suggest that the Infras Committee create a bounty to reward leasing forging hubs if the hubs operate for a certain time and with a certain amount of Nxt and a certain infras capacity. Since I am not a technical person I am not able to give out the details of the criterions to qualify for the reward. I hope you guys can figure it out and set a rule. I believe it will help to build the required hub network for Nxt.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 03:50:41 pm by gs02xzz »
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ChuckOne

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The bounty is no much of a problem.

We need more people and administrators to set up nodes and advertise hubs. Reach out to them and bring them here. :)

forkedchain

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about a week ago I requested a bounty from techdev if they'd like me to release my scripts and DB schema.  they say they are considering it
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mczarnek

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My thinking is this:

Integrate into the core a way of 'smart leasing' your Nxt.  Here's what I mean:

ChuckOne sets a percentage of the cut he'll make off of the Nxt transaction fees made due to gs02xzz.  He sets this at 10%.

ChuckOne forges as normal, using his nxt plus gs02xzz's Nxt.  Say ChuckOne owns 60% of the pool and gs02xzz owns 40% of the forging power.

When they forge a block, initially they split the fees 60-40, however ChuckOne gets an additional 10% of gs02xzz's cut in exchange for him doing the actual forging.

So, ChuckOne earns 64% of the forging fees from that block, gs02xzz earns 36% but ChuckOne does all the work and gs02xzz gets to forge for 'free'.

This would be an agreement entered into at the time that gs02xzz leases his forging power, no changing this percentage half way through forging and there would have to be a way within the wallet at the time of leasing to know what percentage ChuckOne would be taking.

I then imagine a website where you could easily find people to forge for you, that sorts forges by uptime, number of Nxt they are forging with, percentage charged, etc. and you could choose anyone you want to to forge for you.  Anyone out there now can very easily and quickly lease their forging power.  Someday you could lease your forging power to your favorite charity for example.


Would probably end up much more decentralized than encouraging 5 or 6 big pools to form via bounties.. which would end up a little bit more Bitcoin-like.  After all the individuals could lease forging power to each other, no trust needed, and they automatically get paid.

What do you think?  I'll probably create a separate topic about this one.
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nCtrl

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Everybody would lease their forging power to 4747...888, no? The shear number of blocks he gets would make it a better investment even if he sets the "forging fee" at 60%.
The only reason people do not do it already is because he specifically said he has no time/knowledge to keep track of the leasings and do the payments. What you propose essentially makes it a no brainer to chose him. Sure, he could set it at 100%, but that would not stop the fact that everybody would look for the one with the biggest stake (and possibly the smallest fee). Which accomplishes the opposite of what your are looking for, imho. Unless I am missing something.

mczarnek

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I guess the question is just how heavily weighted is the forging toward the person with the biggest wallet?

I do hear there is a slight bias but let's assume for a moment the relationship is linear and every single Nxt is forging and analyze the ChuckOne and gs02xzz example.

Let's say ChuckOne owns 600,000 Nxt and gs02xzz owns 400,000 Nxt.

Together they have a forging power of 1,000,000 Nxt.

This means that they forge 1 million/1 billion = 1/1000 of all blocks.

Which means on average they forge every thousandth block.

Assume they get 10 Nxt on average per block.

So, per million blocks(which is long enough to average things out), they forge 1000 of them and earn 10,000Nxt.  Before we apply the percentage fee ChuckOne earns 6,000 Nxt and gs02xzz earns 4,000 Nxt

Now let's analyze them separately.

ChuckOne forges on his own and forges 600,000/1 billion of all blocks = 0.0006.

So out of 1 million blocks, ChuckOne forges 0.0006 * 1,000,000 = 600 blocks

600 blocks * 10 Nxt = 6000 Nxt.


gs02xzz forges on his own and forges 400,000/ 1 billion of all blocks = 0.0004.

Out of 1 million blocks, gs02xzz forgers and earns 0.0004 * 1,000,000 = 400 blocks.

400 blocks * 10 Nxt = 6000 Nxt.


Therefore either way they earn the same number of Nxt over a given period of time forging alone versus together.  This means the size of the wallet you attach yourself to doesn't earn you more Nxt

This is because yes, you forge more blocks but you earn a proportionally smaller percentage of those transaction fees.

As long as you could forge with a forger who gets at least say 3 blocks per week (aka has ~300,000 Nxt in his account), then you are making approximately the same amount, it may just be a little bit smoother income if it comes from bigger accounts.

Therefore, there is incentive to lease your Nxt to smaller forging pools for the purposes of network security, but not a whole lot of one to lease your forging power to huge accounts.

One other thing that has been discussed that would probably go nicely with this proposition is that anyone who has more than X Nxt in his account will have his forging power counted as if it was at X Nxt.

X could be about 10 million, meaning even if a forging pool has 50 million Nxt in forging power, it'd be counted as if it had 10 million Nxt in forging power.  Maybe you make sure that a forger is paid for all of his own forging power, this only matters when it comes to pools.. though I may say that it should count toward big accounts as well.  To be discussed.

What do you think?
« Last Edit: May 23, 2014, 04:24:30 pm by mczarnek »
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bob_ggg

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One other thing that has been discussed that would probably go nicely with this proposition is that anyone who has more than X Nxt in his account will have his forging power counted as if it was at X Nxt.

X could be about 10 million, meaning even if a forging pool has 50 million Nxt in forging power, it'd be counted as if it had 10 million Nxt in forging power.  Maybe you make sure that a forger is paid for all of his own forging power, this only matters when it comes to pools.. though I may say that it should count toward big accounts as well.  To be discussed.

What do you think?
Imposing a max size to a forging pool is a useful way to avoid a collapse of the number of forging nodes. Referring to your paper discussing Nxt cost efficiency, the most "rational" solution would be a centralized one from en economic standpoint.

Are all forging nodes providers of block chain replication? In principle, this would not be required. For this reason, I suggest to consider a way to promote a healthy dissemination of block chains when light clients come out.

EvilDave

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We need to get some sort of incentive system to run nodes (forging and non-forging) in place.
Given the curent lack of metrics/NXTwork monitoring tools, I suggest that we simply go for a shotgun approach: get lots of nodes up. Big, small, forging, non-forging....they all help.

I'm going to be concentrating on organising InfCom and NXTwork related stuff for a while, so lets get moving.

(And i instinctively do not like the leasing of forging power to pools. De-centralised, remember?. Run your own node, control your own destiny.)
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