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Leasing - Permalease
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Author Topic: Leasing - Permalease  (Read 4483 times)

Daedelus

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Leasing - Permalease
« on: April 25, 2014, 11:50:39 am »

We used to have a leasing subforum I think but it looks like it is gone.

Can I set up a permalease account to for any Nxt I want to lease with the following steps:

1) Create new account.
2) Lease my zero balance to a trustless entity that I will call TrustlessLeasePool (that we don't have yet) for the maximum 32767 blocks (at least 22.75 days, more depending on blocktimes)
3) After 1440 blocks, the leasing of my zero balance becomes active.
4) Then when I want to lease for a while, I transfer my nxt to my permalease account.
5) In 1440 blocks it becomes active and I get daily transfers from TrustlessLeasePool for the Nxt I have forged.

Then I have an easy way to lease my balance without setting up a new lease each time, just transfer in and out of my permalease account.

Thoughts? Will this be a burdon on the blockchain?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2014, 01:04:56 pm by Daedelus »
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Come-from-Beyond

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Re: Leasing - Permalease
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2014, 12:52:45 pm »

Max allowed period is 32767 minutes.
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Daedelus

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Re: Leasing - Permalease
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2014, 01:03:50 pm »

Fixed it.

Would it there be a cost to me or the blockchain for this? Does the fee for leasing scale up as the length increases?
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Come-from-Beyond

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Re: Leasing - Permalease
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2014, 02:06:24 pm »

Does the fee for leasing scale up as the length increases?

No.

Max period is limited to avoid a situation when a malevolent forger refuses to confirm transactions that would cancel balance leased to him.
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forkedchain

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Re: Leasing - Permalease
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2014, 02:09:43 pm »

Does the fee for leasing scale up as the length increases?

No.

Max period is limited to avoid a situation when a malevolent forger refuses to confirm transactions that would cancel balance leased to him.

can you expound?  I would have thought that there would not have to be any "cancel balance" transaction, and that the rules that everyone agrees on would be that after block X that a certain effectiveBalance is just implicitly transferred back under original account?
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Come-from-Beyond

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Re: Leasing - Permalease
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2014, 02:24:24 pm »

can you expound?  I would have thought that there would not have to be any "cancel balance" transaction, and that the rules that everyone agrees on would be that after block X that a certain effectiveBalance is just implicitly transferred back under original account?

U could lease ur balance and then send all the coins to another account to cancel the leasing before expiration time.
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2Kool4Skewl

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Re: Leasing - Permalease
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2014, 04:10:39 am »

Does the fee for leasing scale up as the length increases?

No.

Max period is limited to avoid a situation when a malevolent forger refuses to confirm transactions that would cancel balance leased to him.

can you expound?  I would have thought that there would not have to be any "cancel balance" transaction, and that the rules that everyone agrees on would be that after block X that a certain effectiveBalance is just implicitly transferred back under original account?

You're correct.  There is not a "cancel lease" transaction.  Come-from-Beyond was just explaining the reasoning behind the lease time limit.

He makes a good point.  You can cancel your lease early by transferring your coins to another account.
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Daedelus

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Re: Leasing - Permalease
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2014, 11:14:38 am »

Question from outside...

"Should my client stay open when I lease?"

I want to say no but not 100% sure.
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forkedchain

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Re: Leasing - Permalease
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2014, 01:23:23 pm »

wont be a problem, your effectiveBalance for your secretphrase will be zero
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Tosch110

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Re: Leasing - Permalease
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2014, 12:59:29 pm »

Is it possible to lease using several 'levels'?

For example I have my standard NXT Account 12345. Now I consider this account not to be secure enough to hold all my savings (so i split my savings over several accounts). My safe account is now 6789, with a very secure passphrase I will never be able to remember or put in but I have written it down somewhere offline.

12345 is my forging Account so I lease my 6789 forging power to it. I will not be able to use 12345 for several weeks because my compute is broken. Therefore I decide to put my forging power into a pool (like forkedchange is working on).
Can i lease the forging power of 12345 and 6789 together using just the 12345 account? Can I extract leased forging power?

forkedchain

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Re: Leasing - Permalease
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2014, 03:39:17 pm »

no you cannot lease forging power that someone leased to you.  so if accountA has 1000 nxt and acctB has 2000 then if A leases to B, then B has 3000 forging power.  and if then B leases to C then B only has 1000 forging power.
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Tosch110

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Re: Leasing - Permalease
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2014, 03:41:22 pm »

Ok, makes sense.

Thank you

Daedelus

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Re: Leasing - Permalease
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2014, 08:45:26 pm »

Max allowed period is 32767 minutes.

Wait, did you mean blocks instead of minutes (I assume you were thinking of tf fully implemented)
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Come-from-Beyond

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Re: Leasing - Permalease
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2014, 09:47:21 pm »

Max allowed period is 32767 minutes.

Wait, did you mean blocks instead of minutes (I assume you were thinking of tf fully implemented)

U r right.
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allwelder

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Re: Leasing - Permalease
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2014, 03:07:34 am »

have some questions:
1.What's the max time for leasing acc ?
2.Can set the leasing time period or not?
2.The forging fee belong to borrower or leaser?
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Daedelus

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Re: Leasing - Permalease
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2014, 06:47:17 am »

have some questions:
1.What's the max time for leasing acc ?
2.Can set the leasing time period or not?
2.The forging fee belong to borrower or leaser?

Max time is 32767 blocks.

You choose the length of the lease, if that is what ur asking ;D but you can just move the money from the leased account without penalty, you would just be leasing a zero balance until the lease expired.

The forging fee stays with the pool. You have to trust them to distribute your share to you
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Brangdon

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Re: Leasing - Permalease
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2014, 04:11:41 pm »

Max period is limited to avoid a situation when a malevolent forger refuses to confirm transactions that would cancel balance leased to him.
OK... is this envisaging a scenario where one forger is forging each and every block for an entire period of 32767 blocks? If that happens, isn't NXT kinda screwed anyway? After 22 days I get my forging power back, but by then the forger has had free reign to wreck havoc. Wouldn't it be better to prevent this scenario from happening at all, rather than design leasing to handle it? Surely no one forger should be able to forge more than, say, 1440 blocks in a row?

The downside of the period limit is that I have to pay another fee to renew my lease every 22 days, and if I'm very poor the revenue I get from leasing may be less than those fees, and I won't bother. So the current leasing design disenfranchises the very poor.
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Come-from-Beyond

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Re: Leasing - Permalease
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2014, 05:08:42 pm »

OK... is this envisaging a scenario where one forger is forging each and every block for an entire period of 32767 blocks? If that happens, isn't NXT kinda screwed anyway? After 22 days I get my forging power back, but by then the forger has had free reign to wreck havoc. Wouldn't it be better to prevent this scenario from happening at all, rather than design leasing to handle it? Surely no one forger should be able to forge more than, say, 1440 blocks in a row?

The downside of the period limit is that I have to pay another fee to renew my lease every 22 days, and if I'm very poor the revenue I get from leasing may be less than those fees, and I won't bother. So the current leasing design disenfranchises the very poor.

That was an idea of BCNext. Feel free to improve it.
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Brangdon

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Re: Leasing - Permalease
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2014, 11:33:19 am »

OK... is this envisaging a scenario where one forger is forging each and every block for an entire period of 32767 blocks? If that happens, isn't NXT kinda screwed anyway? After 22 days I get my forging power back, but by then the forger has had free reign to wreck havoc. Wouldn't it be better to prevent this scenario from happening at all, rather than design leasing to handle it? Surely no one forger should be able to forge more than, say, 1440 blocks in a row?

The downside of the period limit is that I have to pay another fee to renew my lease every 22 days, and if I'm very poor the revenue I get from leasing may be less than those fees, and I won't bother. So the current leasing design disenfranchises the very poor.

That was an idea of BCNext. Feel free to improve it.
Don't worry; I won't be shy if I have a suggestion. But first I have to understand the issues. Most of my post history here is me trying to understand NXT. I had asked about permaleases elsewhere, without getting an answer; this thread is helping me. Thanks.

Presumably the concern here is not a single rogue forging pool, but a cabal of them. That would be harder to protect against in code because they would be forging from multiple accounts, and hard to distinguish from honest forgers. They might start off honest, but then succumb to temptation when they realised how much power they'd have if they colluded. And the hope is that the expiry limit means that, knowing their power would be taken away from them 22 days after they started abusing it, that they'd not start abusing it in the first place. They'd hopefully make more profit in the long run from honest transaction fees. OK, I think I understand now.

So I'm thinking now the way forward is to have an option to renew a lease automatically added to the client software, on top of the existing NXT protocol. The client could also verify that the forging power being leased would likely be enough to cover the transaction fees involved. It just needs some time for the clients to mature and catch up with the potential leasing has.
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allwelder

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Re: Leasing - Permalease
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2014, 11:47:23 am »

have some questions:
1.What's the max time for leasing acc ?
2.Can set the leasing time period or not?
2.The forging fee belong to borrower or leaser?

Max time is 32767 blocks.

You choose the length of the lease, if that is what ur asking ;D but you can just move the money from the leased account without penalty, you would just be leasing a zero balance until the lease expired.

The forging fee stays with the pool. You have to trust them to distribute your share to you
Got it ,thanks.
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