Topic: Why does NXT trade like sh*t? (Read 19801 times)

Johnson · « **Reply #100 on:** October 15, 2014, 03:44:30 pm »

Quote from: valarmg on October 15, 2014, 01:18:26 pm

Fees presently return about 0.5% per annum.
Consider that the fees were reduced 10fold, and as a result the Nxt usage doubled. That would mean that the return would only be 0.1% per annum. Bad for forgers, right? No, because the usage doubled so there's more users, more applications etc. That could mean that the Nxt price would increase maybe 20/30/50% compared to not have the fees reduced. The point is that the 0.5% forging income is peanuts in comparison with the price rises possible with increased usage due to lower fees.

Nice summary.

Agreed, but the network would be less secured as even less people forge compared to market cap.

So, no 0.5% is already low return. Should not be lower.

Then again, this problem has already been solved with variable fees decided by forgers themselves that is being implemented, so why is this continuing to come up?

Cassius · « **Reply #101 on:** October 15, 2014, 04:10:08 pm »

Forging is not for profit. People don't come to NXT to profit from forging. They come for 2.0 capabilities.
# of transactions is not proportional to # of users or transaction fees.
Network effect is everything.

bcdev · « **Reply #102 on:** October 15, 2014, 05:30:06 pm »

There is an incentive to forge even with zero fees:
As a stakeholder you don't want your investment to die.

In my opinion, lowering fees to 0.1 is a very good idea. Especially since every operation on AE requires it.
No one thinks that 0.5% per year is a good return. 0.1% isn't different in that aspect.

devguy22 · « **Reply #103 on:** October 15, 2014, 05:35:12 pm »

Is this one instance where pegging to fiat is a good idea? What if we peg the NXT transaction fee at $0.01? You may get more than 1 NXT for a transaction if NXT drops a lot, or less than that (like currently). But right now, forging for a bunch of NXT when the fee would be only ~.1 NXT would be kind of a disincentive.

Brangdon · « **Reply #104 on:** October 15, 2014, 07:31:53 pm »

Quote from: CoinHoarder on October 15, 2014, 04:27:15 am

It is really a shame because it is not Nxt's fault that not many people invested in the original IPO when everyone had a fair chance to do so, and all cryptocurrencies suffer from "unfair" distribution by early adopters.

I wasn't around then, but I gather it was BCNext's fault as he chose to curtail the IPO early, and before some people who wanted to invest could. And the issue is not so much fairness, as concern that a small number of early investors have too much power. As forgers, they effectively control which version of the NRS gets used. They can also crash the price by dumping at whim. When we have voting, their votes will dominate community decision making. The problem is made worse by the suspicion that some of the accounts are sock-puppets, and so the distribution is worse than it looks. Note that it is not about the percentages, but the absolute numbers. The upshot is that critics see Nxt as a centralised currency, controlled by a handful of founders now and forever.

To make a constructive suggestion, I gather it would be possible to study the Nxt IPO through the Bitcoin block-chain and use taint analysis to establish whether any of the founders accounts were funded by the same wallet. We could offer a bounty for some Bitcoin expert to do this. We'd need to know the Bitcoin addresses that funded the IPO. This might confirm or refute the sock-puppet fears.

(PS Good post. I agree with the parts I didn't quote.)

salsacz · « **Reply #105 on:** October 15, 2014, 07:35:31 pm »

there was even an IP check when stakeholders were supposed to confirm their tokens..

coinomat · « **Reply #106 on:** October 15, 2014, 07:56:43 pm »

Would it be possible to shift forging to some kind of POS based not on current balance but on some kind of karma, like total transaction amount during last 30 days and such. Or the fork needed for this would be too hard ?

It would give power to active network supporters and took the power from sleeping and dumping whales.

MrV777 · « **Reply #107 on:** October 15, 2014, 07:58:24 pm »

Quote from: coinomat on October 15, 2014, 07:56:43 pm

Would it be possible to shift forging to some kind of POS based not on current balance but on some kind of karma, like total transaction amount during last 30 days and such. Or the fork needed for this would be too hard ? It would give power to active network supporters and took the power from sleeping and dumping whales.

That sounds more like PoA

bitcoinpaul · « **Reply #108 on:** October 15, 2014, 08:00:23 pm »

Quote from: coinomat on October 15, 2014, 07:56:43 pm

Would it be possible to shift forging to some kind of POS based not on current balance but on some kind of karma, like total transaction amount during last 30 days and such. Or the fork needed for this would be too hard ? It would give power to active network supporters and took the power from sleeping and dumping whales.

sounds like this could be gamed.

Brangdon · « **Reply #109 on:** October 15, 2014, 08:01:07 pm »

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on October 15, 2014, 10:17:24 am

Let market to decide the fees.

Fees are mostly a security issue. They need to be high enough to discourage spam, and high enough to discourage scam assets. I'm not convinced markets are the best way to decide technical security issues. I'm concerned a "tragedy of the commons" will push the transaction fees too low, unless the mechanism to decide the fees is designed carefully. We had a long debate about possible designs in another thread, which I suspect won't have much influence.

Quote from: coinomat on October 15, 2014, 10:46:25 am

yes sure, but why a node has to forge then at all?

Forging is necessary to validate transactions. We could have sent the transaction fees to a community fund, or a charity or something, but that gets political. Eventually, I think running a node will become more expensive (if we ever get to 1000 transactions per second), and then the fees may make a valuable contribution to running costs.

Quote from: coinomat on October 15, 2014, 02:07:52 pm

Do you really think that lowering the fees will stimulate NXT usage? Don't follow that logic... the fees are 0.1%, they are low already.

Fees are currently 0.5% of the total NXT market cap per year. They aren't 0.5% of the value of a payment. Many transactions have zero nominal NXT value but still cost 1 NXT to send. Things like sending messages or trading on the asset exchange or selling digital goods could all do with less friction. I'd like to see a tipping culture in Nxt as there is for Dogecoin, but it won't happen while fees are so high.

I think lower fees would help a lot. Partly by easing usage. Partly because I think it's good PR for Proof of Stake currencies. Consider that Blockchain does not have low fees now, and cannot have low fees ever, and if anything its fees are liable to increase as the block-reward halves and as mining pools flex their muscles. Also, at the moment Bitcoin inflation is 10%, which is a massive tax on savers (worse than most fiat). So both spenders and savers are losing out in Bitcoin-land.

Zero inflation and low fees is a combination that Bitcoin cannot match, because the work in "Proof of Work" must be paid for. They are a prime benefit of PoS. We should capitalise on it. Which we can't do until they are actually low. (But not too low.)

Come-from-Beyond · « **Reply #110 on:** October 15, 2014, 08:01:16 pm »

Quote from: Brangdon on October 15, 2014, 07:31:53 pm

To make a constructive suggestion, I gather it would be possible to study the Nxt IPO through the Bitcoin block-chain and use taint analysis to establish whether any of the founders accounts were funded by the same wallet.

It's visible on the blockchain. Some addresses sent transactions several times.

Brangdon · « **Reply #111 on:** October 15, 2014, 08:03:50 pm »

Quote from: salsacz on October 15, 2014, 07:35:31 pm

there was even an IP check when stakeholders were supposed to confirm their tokens..

Yes. But I think a block-chain taint analysis would be more trusted by Bitcoin people. Especially as it wasn't done at the time.

Come-from-Beyond · « **Reply #112 on:** October 15, 2014, 08:10:27 pm »

This is related to your discussion:

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on October 15, 2014, 08:09:13 pm

"Unfair" distribution was made intentionally to create a sustainable system. A solution to distribution problem was offered (Monetary System). Now everything depends on ordinary nxters.

PS: https://nxtforum.org/initial-distribution/initial-distribution-of-100-pos-currencies/

ThomasVeil · « **Reply #113 on:** October 15, 2014, 08:51:45 pm »

Since we're talking about bad distribution again: 1% own 50% of all coins... of the fiat world.
As Brangdon says: this is not really an issue of fairness for NXT - only one voting and pricing power. But it will be like that anyways, because NXT can't isolate itself from the outside world. And I think even a somewhat longer IPO would not have changed it. There is no solution, so let's concentrate on other things.

Pretty videos won't solve our marketing issue. We have those - nobody watches them.
Rather we first have to answer this question: What problem does NXT solve?

Only ce we can give a clear reply (for the average man, or maybe the average business man), then can we really move forward. In fact - that would drive people to us!
Google didn't have to market their product - people were craving for a working internet search. And nobody needs to click an ad to go to Google-Maps - people seek it, because it solves lots of needs.
At the moment - as cool as NXT is - none of the features are working well enough or are revolutionary enough. NXT is more a solution in search of a problem.

Store of Value: Bitcoin seems safer for now.
Money Transfer: Heck, even fiat is fine for 95% of Westerners. Bitcoin can cover the rest.
IPO/Assets: Not ready for big time - legality unclear.
Marketplace: Too much competition (web, other decentralized stores).
Microtransations: No use cases/infrastructure. Too high fees. Too high barrier (buying NXT first).

I feel Monetary System could be a winner, if it's like I think it will be: Let people make currencies with a few clicks. Allow businesses to make vouchers stored safely in the chain. It's legal, it's useful - and I'm not aware of competition. And it won't need users (apart from issuers) to deal with NXT.

coinomat · « **Reply #114 on:** October 15, 2014, 10:05:40 pm »

Deep thoughts but I think you're wrong about AE, this is the killer app. Legality will be there someday, technology is what really matters.

Quote from: ThomasVeil on October 15, 2014, 08:51:45 pm

Since we're talking about bad distribution again: 1% own 50% of all coins... of the fiat world.
As Brangdon says: this is not really an issue of fairness for NXT - only one voting and pricing power. But it will be like that anyways, because NXT can't isolate itself from the outside world. And I think even a somewhat longer IPO would not have changed it. There is no solution, so let's concentrate on other things.

Pretty videos won't solve our marketing issue. We have those - nobody watches them.
Rather we first have to answer this question: What problem does NXT solve?

Only ce we can give a clear reply (for the average man, or maybe the average business man), then can we really move forward. In fact - that would drive people to us!
Google didn't have to market their product - people were craving for a working internet search. And nobody needs to click an ad to go to Google-Maps - people seek it, because it solves lots of needs.
At the moment - as cool as NXT is - none of the features are working well enough or are revolutionary enough. NXT is more a solution in search of a problem.

Store of Value: Bitcoin seems safer for now.
Money Transfer: Heck, even fiat is fine for 95% of Westerners. Bitcoin can cover the rest.
IPO/Assets: Not ready for big time - legality unclear.
Marketplace: Too much competition (web, other decentralized stores).
Microtransations: No use cases/infrastructure. Too high fees. Too high barrier (buying NXT first).

I feel Monetary System could be a winner, if it's like I think it will be: Let people make currencies with a few clicks. Allow businesses to make vouchers stored safely in the chain. It's legal, it's useful - and I'm not aware of competition. And it won't need users (apart from issuers) to deal with NXT.

Kora · « **Reply #115 on:** October 15, 2014, 11:21:57 pm »

Quote from: ThomasVeil on October 15, 2014, 08:51:45 pm

Pretty videos won't solve our marketing issue. We have those - nobody watches them.
Rather we first have to answer this question: What problem does NXT solve?

NXT solves many problems, and they're easy to see for those in the 'know', like people reading this forum.

The hard part is getting people outside of crypto to know 'WE' exist. That's where short videos can play a BIG role IMO. I'm NOT talking about slick promotional videos imitating corporate offerings, (not that they're a bad thing), but I agree, 'Jo Sixpack' wont ever watch them.

The videos NXT needs (and crypto generally) are ones that get attention, make people laugh, go "wow, that was cool". Ones that are so 'entertaining' that people can't resist sharing them with their friends.

We need crypto viral videos that get people's attention first, then have the NXT/crypto message enter their subconscious almost without their knowing.

Is this an advert for Richard Branson & Virgin, or is it just bikini eye-candy? Does it get your attention? Is there a marketing message despite the obvious distractions?

I'm not saying NXT needs bikinis & breasts to market itself, but it does need more than great tech to be noticed by Jo Sixpack.

nextcafe · « **Reply #116 on:** October 16, 2014, 12:17:04 am »

Trade like sh*t as compared to what? A bunch of coins that speculators are looking to make a quick buck on?

The speculators are probably the most vocal about distribution because they want to be able to trade the volatility. NXT partly does not have high volatility trading because that's what AE is meant to do. If you look at the top crypto market cap, Nxt has the most assets.

We should also look at the AE when discussing trading.

juicyjuice87 · « **Reply #117 on:** October 16, 2014, 01:00:23 am »

Is POS still broken and java still not secure?

apenzl · « **Reply #118 on:** October 16, 2014, 03:03:13 am »

Man, I hate the topic, but love this thread.

And I just posted an application to MC.
https://nxtforum.org/marketing-committee/(mc)-nxter-org/

IMO we could address most of the issues discussed here. Please read all the way through the application.

I started Nxter.org in January and I've published NXT Newsletters until 4 months ago, when decentralization won / killed me.
Or to big up myself: When I chose to build a site instead of chasing various threads.

I actually thought I could write the newsletters simultaneously, but with no funds and only one life, it only became a couple of articles per week, and a social media effort. TBH, while writing the newsletters I didn't even have time to promote them, just posted them in the BTT-thread and on nxtforum - then went off to follow more news.

Anyways, this is what changed my focus:
https://nxtforum.org/nxt-promotion/nxt-friendly-crypto-news-site/

We're now a 5 person core team of dedicated Nxters running nxter.org. We've made a roadmap, a business plan and all that. I've redesigned the site, both the front and the backend - to enable an efficient workflow: Pitching > writing > editing > publishing > sharing it. In multiple languages. We've started a French nxter.org sub site. We publish weekly market reports, among other Nxt news, and also write the SuperNET Newsletters.

We haven't gotten around to promoting it wildly yet. But here's the idea:

Everybody here has at least one field of interest, which is his reason to own NXT. - Share it. Write it down.
Instead of keeping it inside or discussing it among ourselves only - let's spread the word and the visions. That's a way to start a network effect.

I see lots of good ideas in here - as always! To help Nxt take off to the next stage. But let's get it out. We can even get paid. Put as much or as little energy into this as you can or want. We do have a professional English editor waiting to take care of misspellings and asking questions if something needs to be cleared up.

All contributions to nxter.org will be rewarded with Nxterpoints (NXTP). These are loyalty points that represents a share of the net profit of nxter.org. We couldn't find a better way to honor the purpose of the site or to make it reward the contributing Nxt Community members better. The more you contribute, the more NXTP shares of the profit you'll get. You can read more here: http://nxter.org/get-published-get-paid/

I've asked the MC to fund a floor value to the Nxterpoints (NXTP) which go to all contributors, and to cover some of the expenses for 3 big contests that aim to get new people to Nxt.

One is a faucet that I once planned with QBTC, which stranded because we both ran out of time. Its goal is to reach out to crypto- and non-crypto people, make them learn-by-using the features of Nxt in a little game, and have them surf Nxt powered websites in search for the answers, that will eventually give them a NXT reward.

Quote from: ThomasVeil on October 15, 2014, 08:51:45 pm

We first have to answer this question: What problem does NXT solve?

The second contest is a competition. The goal is to get ppl brainstorming real life use cases for Nxt. Lots of possible use cases have already been thought out and published in pre-ANNs of pre-ANNs of Bitcoin related pre-ANNs in the media, but let's get them in here instead and relate it to the Nxt platform. Offer a grand prize for the best "Nxt Solution". And let's make students worldwide, youth politicians, anons and gamers contribute to the brainstorm, because maybe something new will come up. Inspiration from outside. We'll use this contest for spinoff articles and PR texts. Maybe we can even announce many of the proposed use cases in a matter of months.

Quote from: Kora on October 15, 2014, 11:21:57 pm

NXT solves many problems, and they're easy to see for those in the 'know', like people reading this forum.
The hard part is getting people outside of crypto to know 'WE' exist. That's where short videos can play a BIG role IMO.

Third contest: Make the best Nxt promotion. The goal is to get a worldwide promotion of Nxt (or Nxt-based features). I won't tell you how. But you can win a grand prize. Suggestions: Bomb your city walls with Nxt logo stencils. Write an article, print Nxt infographics and hang 'em in your university, local library or mall. Document it. Videofilm yourself using a NxtInside innovation like Freemarket or Nxtty. SuperNET. Create your first MS-coin. Try to make a Nxt meme go viral. Anything.

The most interesting part of this 3rd proposal is, IMO, that we'll get off the internet and have whoever wants to participate do it locally, worldwide. Even if they don't win the first- second- or third prize, they've promoted us and learned about Nxt, and they may be willing to carry on - for fun or for the revolution. We *could* aim to create a global street team of promotors. For Nxt related businesses to buy into. Net income from such a useful adventure would be dividended out to NXTP holders. All of us.

The last NXT Newsletter I wrote wasn't boring. It covered 2 months of Nxt development (simplified) but it was 40 pages long! The best comment I received IMO was this retweet: 'Too much Nxt news!' It may have been a friendly joke, but it was the truth. The problem is definitely NOT, that we don't have enough Nxt news, it's a matter of what news we choose to publish. I want nxter.org to be "serious", always wanted that, so I've opened up to private blogs now to provoke myself.

And we're even gonna open up to private businesses / partnerships.

The world is wide open, and with AE gaining attention and NRS 1.4 coming up, it's only going to get worse.

I hope, that you're with me on this. I hope you see our idea. I hope the whole community can do this.
Please discuss / chip in.

2Kool4Skewl · « **Reply #119 on:** October 16, 2014, 03:56:08 am »

Quote from: ThomasVeil on October 15, 2014, 08:51:45 pm

Store of Value: Bitcoin seems safer for now.

Bitcoin is quickly becoming a terrible store of value because its security is being centralized. It is no longer the decentralized store of value that it was in the beginning.

Quote from: ThomasVeil on October 15, 2014, 08:51:45 pm

Money Transfer: Heck, even fiat is fine for 95% of Westerners. Bitcoin can cover the rest.

Bitcoin transfers are more expensive than NXT transfers. The BTC tx fee will rise as block rewards drop and transactions will be forced to subsidize PoW mining costs.

Quote from: ThomasVeil on October 15, 2014, 08:51:45 pm

I feel Monetary System could be a winner, if it's like I think it will be: Let people make currencies with a few clicks. Allow businesses to make vouchers stored safely in the chain. It's legal, it's useful - and I'm not aware of competition. And it won't need users (apart from issuers) to deal with NXT.

+1 The Monetary System is one of the greatest features of NXT. I surprised people are so afraid that the MS will destroy the value of NXT. If anything, it is the exact opposite. Not everyone who uses the NXT platform needs to hold a substantial amount of NXT. They only need enough to cover their transactions. This is ok. NXT is predominately imo a store of value. The Monetary System opens up a whole new mechanism for economic empowerment and in no way does it detract from the value of NXT.

News:

Author Topic: Why does NXT trade like sh*t? (Read 19801 times)