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What needs to be promoted: Nxt (the platform) or NXT (the currency)? singapore
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Jean-Luc

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Re: What needs to be promoted: Nxt (the platform) or NXT (the currency)?
« Reply #40 on: April 04, 2015, 09:48:11 pm »

How about creating "white label" versions of Nxt, which use a different blockchain for each company that needs such a version. The Nxt Foundation, or some representative of Nxt that can enter business agreement signs a deal, which specifies restrictions on what features of Nxt that specific blockchain is not allowed to run. Being under MIT license, of course any company can decide not to enter such a deal and just clone the whole Nxt platform, but then they get no support from the Nxt developers or community, and no right to use the "powered by Nxt" branding. Most businesses like Jetcoin are likely to need only a small subset of all Nxt features - I guess balance leasing, aliases, DGS, MS (or at least some MS currency versions), coin shuffling (coming in 1.6), are not needed and not relevant for Jetcoin. Other businesses may want just the DGS, but not the AE or coin shuffling because of the legal liabilities associated with running those.

This compromise ensures that the Nxt blockchain is always the real thing, with all advanced features, the developers provide paid support to such white label customers, and the Nxt stakeholders are more confident that Nxt value is not going to be diluted by multiple companies using the software on their own blockchains.

Since all nodes in a blockchain need to accept the same transaction types, enforcing such restrictions is very simple, it is not like a company can run an "unlicensed" version only on a few machines. And if they at some point decide they need some more features enabled, the Nxt community votes whether to approve modifying the agreement.
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Damelon

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Re: What needs to be promoted: Nxt (the platform) or NXT (the currency)?
« Reply #41 on: April 04, 2015, 09:54:39 pm »

How about creating "white label" versions of Nxt, which use a different blockchain for each company that needs such a version. The Nxt Foundation, or some representative of Nxt that can enter business agreement signs a deal, which specifies restrictions on what features of Nxt that specific blockchain is not allowed to run. Being under MIT license, of course any company can decide not to enter such a deal and just clone the whole Nxt platform, but then they get no support from the Nxt developers or community, and no right to use the "powered by Nxt" branding. Most businesses like Jetcoin are likely to need only a small subset of all Nxt features - I guess balance leasing, aliases, DGS, MS (or at least some MS currency versions), coin shuffling (coming in 1.6), are not needed and not relevant for Jetcoin. Other businesses may want just the DGS, but not the AE or coin shuffling because of the legal liabilities associated with running those.

This compromise ensures that the Nxt blockchain is always the real thing, with all advanced features, the developers provide paid support to such white label customers, and the Nxt stakeholders are more confident that Nxt value is not going to be diluted by multiple companies using the software on their own blockchains.

Since all nodes in a blockchain need to accept the same transaction types, enforcing such restrictions is very simple, it is not like a company can run an "unlicensed" version only on a few machines. And if they at some point decide they need some more features enabled, the Nxt community votes whether to approve modifying the agreement.

I could kiss you!
You know, this is what I love about our community: constructive thinking! :)

To me, this seems viable.
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verymuchso

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Re: What needs to be promoted: Nxt (the platform) or NXT (the currency)?
« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2015, 10:06:02 pm »

How about creating "white label" versions of Nxt, which use a different blockchain for each company that needs such a version.

good idea.
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capodieci

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Re: What needs to be promoted: Nxt (the platform) or NXT (the currency)?
« Reply #43 on: April 04, 2015, 10:24:49 pm »

How about creating "white label" versions of Nxt, which use a different blockchain for each company that needs such a version. The Nxt Foundation, or some representative of Nxt that can enter business agreement signs a deal, which specifies restrictions on what features of Nxt that specific blockchain is not allowed to run. Being under MIT license, of course any company can decide not to enter such a deal and just clone the whole Nxt platform, but then they get no support from the Nxt developers or community, and no right to use the "powered by Nxt" branding. Most businesses like Jetcoin are likely to need only a small subset of all Nxt features - I guess balance leasing, aliases, DGS, MS (or at least some MS currency versions), coin shuffling (coming in 1.6), are not needed and not relevant for Jetcoin. Other businesses may want just the DGS, but not the AE or coin shuffling because of the legal liabilities associated with running those.

This compromise ensures that the Nxt blockchain is always the real thing, with all advanced features, the developers provide paid support to such white label customers, and the Nxt stakeholders are more confident that Nxt value is not going to be diluted by multiple companies using the software on their own blockchains.

Since all nodes in a blockchain need to accept the same transaction types, enforcing such restrictions is very simple, it is not like a company can run an "unlicensed" version only on a few machines. And if they at some point decide they need some more features enabled, the Nxt community votes whether to approve modifying the agreement.

Amazing idea, I approve of it!
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jl777

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Re: What needs to be promoted: Nxt (the platform) or NXT (the currency)?
« Reply #44 on: April 04, 2015, 10:45:22 pm »

How about creating "white label" versions of Nxt, which use a different blockchain for each company that needs such a version. The Nxt Foundation, or some representative of Nxt that can enter business agreement signs a deal, which specifies restrictions on what features of Nxt that specific blockchain is not allowed to run. Being under MIT license, of course any company can decide not to enter such a deal and just clone the whole Nxt platform, but then they get no support from the Nxt developers or community, and no right to use the "powered by Nxt" branding. Most businesses like Jetcoin are likely to need only a small subset of all Nxt features - I guess balance leasing, aliases, DGS, MS (or at least some MS currency versions), coin shuffling (coming in 1.6), are not needed and not relevant for Jetcoin. Other businesses may want just the DGS, but not the AE or coin shuffling because of the legal liabilities associated with running those.

This compromise ensures that the Nxt blockchain is always the real thing, with all advanced features, the developers provide paid support to such white label customers, and the Nxt stakeholders are more confident that Nxt value is not going to be diluted by multiple companies using the software on their own blockchains.

Since all nodes in a blockchain need to accept the same transaction types, enforcing such restrictions is very simple, it is not like a company can run an "unlicensed" version only on a few machines. And if they at some point decide they need some more features enabled, the Nxt community votes whether to approve modifying the agreement.

Amazing idea, I approve of it!
Yes, this method solves all the issues. I like it a lot too

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Lagb

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Re: What needs to be promoted: Nxt (the platform) or NXT (the currency)?
« Reply #45 on: April 04, 2015, 11:14:09 pm »

How about creating "white label" versions of Nxt, which use a different blockchain for each company that needs such a version. The Nxt Foundation, or some representative of Nxt that can enter business agreement signs a deal, which specifies restrictions on what features of Nxt that specific blockchain is not allowed to run. Being under MIT license, of course any company can decide not to enter such a deal and just clone the whole Nxt platform, but then they get no support from the Nxt developers or community, and no right to use the "powered by Nxt" branding. Most businesses like Jetcoin are likely to need only a small subset of all Nxt features - I guess balance leasing, aliases, DGS, MS (or at least some MS currency versions), coin shuffling (coming in 1.6), are not needed and not relevant for Jetcoin. Other businesses may want just the DGS, but not the AE or coin shuffling because of the legal liabilities associated with running those.

This compromise ensures that the Nxt blockchain is always the real thing, with all advanced features, the developers provide paid support to such white label customers, and the Nxt stakeholders are more confident that Nxt value is not going to be diluted by multiple companies using the software on their own blockchains.

Since all nodes in a blockchain need to accept the same transaction types, enforcing such restrictions is very simple, it is not like a company can run an "unlicensed" version only on a few machines. And if they at some point decide they need some more features enabled, the Nxt community votes whether to approve modifying the agreement.

In my opinion it's the best solution.

It would be a pity to annihilate Roberto's hard work marketing Nxt, but it is necessary that Nxt blockchain remains "the real thing".

I vote "white label".
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gs02xzz

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Re: What needs to be promoted: Nxt (the platform) or NXT (the currency)?
« Reply #46 on: April 04, 2015, 11:33:21 pm »

+1.
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EvilDave

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Re: What needs to be promoted: Nxt (the platform) or NXT (the currency)?
« Reply #47 on: April 04, 2015, 11:39:53 pm »

Yup....+1 to J-L
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verymuchso

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Re: What needs to be promoted: Nxt (the platform) or NXT (the currency)?
« Reply #48 on: April 05, 2015, 12:04:17 am »

How about creating "white label" versions of Nxt, which use a different blockchain for each company that needs such a version. The Nxt Foundation, or some representative of Nxt that can enter business agreement signs a deal, which specifies restrictions on what features of Nxt that specific blockchain is not allowed to run. Being under MIT license, of course any company can decide not to enter such a deal and just clone the whole Nxt platform, but then they get no support from the Nxt developers or community, and no right to use the "powered by Nxt" branding. Most businesses like Jetcoin are likely to need only a small subset of all Nxt features - I guess balance leasing, aliases, DGS, MS (or at least some MS currency versions), coin shuffling (coming in 1.6), are not needed and not relevant for Jetcoin. Other businesses may want just the DGS, but not the AE or coin shuffling because of the legal liabilities associated with running those.

This compromise ensures that the Nxt blockchain is always the real thing, with all advanced features, the developers provide paid support to such white label customers, and the Nxt stakeholders are more confident that Nxt value is not going to be diluted by multiple companies using the software on their own blockchains.

Since all nodes in a blockchain need to accept the same transaction types, enforcing such restrictions is very simple, it is not like a company can run an "unlicensed" version only on a few machines. And if they at some point decide they need some more features enabled, the Nxt community votes whether to approve modifying the agreement.

Voting on allowing companies to use more or less features to use in the core sounds complex.
Isn't just providing the entire package much simpler?
Is this not a clean approach? With cross chain interoperability and the version dependence being the trade of.
It would give less control over companies using the tech but it would not matter since they lock themselves in anyway through dependency of software updates and in the future possibly the use of gateways on the NXT chain from their own chain.
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MadCow

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Re: What needs to be promoted: Nxt (the platform) or NXT (the currency)?
« Reply #49 on: April 05, 2015, 01:45:23 am »

How about creating "white label" versions of Nxt, which use a different blockchain for each company that needs such a version. The Nxt Foundation, or some representative of Nxt that can enter business agreement signs a deal, which specifies restrictions on what features of Nxt that specific blockchain is not allowed to run. Being under MIT license, of course any company can decide not to enter such a deal and just clone the whole Nxt platform, but then they get no support from the Nxt developers or community, and no right to use the "powered by Nxt" branding. Most businesses like Jetcoin are likely to need only a small subset of all Nxt features - I guess balance leasing, aliases, DGS, MS (or at least some MS currency versions), coin shuffling (coming in 1.6), are not needed and not relevant for Jetcoin. Other businesses may want just the DGS, but not the AE or coin shuffling because of the legal liabilities associated with running those.

This compromise ensures that the Nxt blockchain is always the real thing, with all advanced features, the developers provide paid support to such white label customers, and the Nxt stakeholders are more confident that Nxt value is not going to be diluted by multiple companies using the software on their own blockchains.

Since all nodes in a blockchain need to accept the same transaction types, enforcing such restrictions is very simple, it is not like a company can run an "unlicensed" version only on a few machines. And if they at some point decide they need some more features enabled, the Nxt community votes whether to approve modifying the agreement.

Amazing idea, I approve of it!

Outstanding work guys!!
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Riker

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Re: What needs to be promoted: Nxt (the platform) or NXT (the currency)?
« Reply #50 on: April 05, 2015, 07:27:36 am »

Random thoughts about the NXT White label idea.

A system administrator from an organization which licensed the NXT Software will be able to spawn a new blockchain by providing several parameters such as number of available units, block time, block size and operational parameters including the API port, peer port etc.
Organizations can license a single or multiple blockchain license or even an enterprise license to spawn as many blockchains as they like as long as it only used by your organization.

The Genesis block is spawned by the SysAdmin which receives all coins.
The SysAdmin then defines a list of users identified by their public key (and account id) and user roles such as which user is allowed to perform which type of transactions.
This metadata is stored on the blockchain by new transaction types and can be changed later by the SysAdmin itself or by other privileged users which has an "administrator" role.
Coins are distributed to user accounts and forging is performed as usual.

We can also add corporate friendly features to the white label distribution which will not be available for the open source distribution such as:
Out of the box block explorer and administration tool
Digitally signed distribution
Automatic download of the Software from an admin node

Use cases other than direct financial uses:
Storing signed Purchasing documents and contracts and their approval process
Managing employee performance reviews and other company sensitive information
Proof of existance for legal documents
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verymuchso

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Re: What needs to be promoted: Nxt (the platform) or NXT (the currency)?
« Reply #51 on: April 05, 2015, 07:43:25 am »

We are testing this, implementation is ready, could be a nice addition.
https://nxtforum.org/asset-exchange/private-assets-for-use-in-financial-institutions/
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capodieci

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Re: What needs to be promoted: Nxt (the platform) or NXT (the currency)?
« Reply #52 on: April 05, 2015, 07:45:15 am »

I am so glad this is going to a right direction! We needed this discussion very much!
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xiahui135

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Re: What needs to be promoted: Nxt (the platform) or NXT (the currency)?
« Reply #53 on: April 05, 2015, 08:53:41 am »

the platform, of course.
We should concentrate to let people know NXT platform can help them. It can solve some problem of them. This will indirectly promote nxtcoin.
We should not spend most of the time to encourage other to buy Nxtcoin.
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yassin54

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Re: What needs to be promoted: Nxt (the platform) or NXT (the currency)?
« Reply #54 on: April 05, 2015, 09:08:08 am »

How about creating "white label" versions of Nxt, which use a different blockchain for each company that needs such a version. The Nxt Foundation, or some representative of Nxt that can enter business agreement signs a deal, which specifies restrictions on what features of Nxt that specific blockchain is not allowed to run. Being under MIT license, of course any company can decide not to enter such a deal and just clone the whole Nxt platform, but then they get no support from the Nxt developers or community, and no right to use the "powered by Nxt" branding. Most businesses like Jetcoin are likely to need only a small subset of all Nxt features - I guess balance leasing, aliases, DGS, MS (or at least some MS currency versions), coin shuffling (coming in 1.6), are not needed and not relevant for Jetcoin. Other businesses may want just the DGS, but not the AE or coin shuffling because of the legal liabilities associated with running those.

This compromise ensures that the Nxt blockchain is always the real thing, with all advanced features, the developers provide paid support to such white label customers, and the Nxt stakeholders are more confident that Nxt value is not going to be diluted by multiple companies using the software on their own blockchains.

Since all nodes in a blockchain need to accept the same transaction types, enforcing such restrictions is very simple, it is not like a company can run an "unlicensed" version only on a few machines. And if they at some point decide they need some more features enabled, the Nxt community votes whether to approve modifying the agreement.
+1440

I am so glad this is going to a right direction! We needed this discussion very much!
Me too  :D
« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 09:10:30 am by yassin54 »
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Jean-Luc

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Re: What needs to be promoted: Nxt (the platform) or NXT (the currency)?
« Reply #55 on: April 05, 2015, 12:23:21 pm »

Voting on allowing companies to use more or less features to use in the core sounds complex.
Isn't just providing the entire package much simpler?
We don't need to vote for every single feature, but voting can be used when the community is divided, and to prove that the Nxt stakeholders indeed stand behind an agreement signed by the legal entity representing us.

Disabling a feature is not that hard, just change TransactionType.findTransactionType to return null for that type and subtype. The code for the feature can still stay in, to make merges and upgrades easier, as it is open source it does not need to be hidden or removed (unless some of it affects performance, in which case we add a property to disable initializing it, etc). The UI of course needs to be changed to remove access to those features, but all businesses will want a customized UI anyway.

Quote
Is this not a clean approach? With cross chain interoperability and the version dependence being the trade of.
It would give less control over companies using the tech but it would not matter since they lock themselves in anyway through dependency of software updates and in the future possibly the use of gateways on the NXT chain from their own chain.
No, this sounds really more complicated to do. It is also not clear what this cross chain interoperability means, how this will guarantee the Nxt blockchain preserves its value, and whether the companies will really want that, a foreign (Nxt) blockchain always running on the same node as their custom blockchain.
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Jean-Luc

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Re: What needs to be promoted: Nxt (the platform) or NXT (the currency)?
« Reply #56 on: April 05, 2015, 12:25:33 pm »

Looks like we found our business model. Now let's make a plan how to execute it. Make it so!
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Re: What needs to be promoted: Nxt (the platform) or NXT (the currency)?
« Reply #57 on: April 05, 2015, 12:58:56 pm »

How about creating "white label" versions of Nxt, which use a different blockchain for each company that needs such a version. The Nxt Foundation, or some representative of Nxt that can enter business agreement signs a deal, which specifies restrictions on what features of Nxt that specific blockchain is not allowed to run. Being under MIT license, of course any company can decide not to enter such a deal and just clone the whole Nxt platform, but then they get no support from the Nxt developers or community, and no right to use the "powered by Nxt" branding. Most businesses like Jetcoin are likely to need only a small subset of all Nxt features - I guess balance leasing, aliases, DGS, MS (or at least some MS currency versions), coin shuffling (coming in 1.6), are not needed and not relevant for Jetcoin. Other businesses may want just the DGS, but not the AE or coin shuffling because of the legal liabilities associated with running those.

This compromise ensures that the Nxt blockchain is always the real thing, with all advanced features, the developers provide paid support to such white label customers, and the Nxt stakeholders are more confident that Nxt value is not going to be diluted by multiple companies using the software on their own blockchains.

Since all nodes in a blockchain need to accept the same transaction types, enforcing such restrictions is very simple, it is not like a company can run an "unlicensed" version only on a few machines. And if they at some point decide they need some more features enabled, the Nxt community votes whether to approve modifying the agreement.

This is a really good idea, not just for businesses but also for charities. Imagine a "white label" clone whose initial rationale is existing as a "premium" that's sent out to anyone who donates fiat to a charity. If you're American, you probably remember those notorious PBS "beg-a-thons" where they offer goods tied to the show as a premium for donating $X or $Y to the television station. A white-label Nxt 'clone' would be perfect as a "premium" coin - and PBS's fund-raisers serve as a well-rooted precedent in law.

Also, an off-the-shelf solution means that the charity "owns" the white-label clone. It starts with a fresh and new solution rather than a pre-existing "used" solution (like a Nxt Asset) that comes with an extant community. At the very least, a "used" solution gives them good reason to "think about it." A brand-new white-label solution doesn't complicate the decision in this way.   

Imagine a "Save the Skunks" charity that hands out 100 SkunkCoins for ever dollar donated, and SkunkCoin is a white-label Nxt 'clone'...
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verymuchso

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Re: What needs to be promoted: Nxt (the platform) or NXT (the currency)?
« Reply #58 on: April 05, 2015, 01:00:31 pm »

Voting on allowing companies to use more or less features to use in the core sounds complex.
Isn't just providing the entire package much simpler?
We don't need to vote for every single feature, but voting can be used when the community is divided, and to prove that the Nxt stakeholders indeed stand behind an agreement signed by the legal entity representing us.

Disabling a feature is not that hard, just change TransactionType.findTransactionType to return null for that type and subtype. The code for the feature can still stay in, to make merges and upgrades easier, as it is open source it does not need to be hidden or removed (unless some of it affects performance, in which case we add a property to disable initializing it, etc). The UI of course needs to be changed to remove access to those features, but all businesses will want a customized UI anyway.

Quote
Is this not a clean approach? With cross chain interoperability and the version dependence being the trade of.
It would give less control over companies using the tech but it would not matter since they lock themselves in anyway through dependency of software updates and in the future possibly the use of gateways on the NXT chain from their own chain.
No, this sounds really more complicated to do. It is also not clear what this cross chain interoperability means, how this will guarantee the Nxt blockchain preserves its value, and whether the companies will really want that, a foreign (Nxt) blockchain always running on the same node as their custom blockchain.

Not talking about the disabling of features being complex thats the easy part.
Talking about everything that comes with it (everything not software related).

Now that the software has become so good and structured and knowledge of using the stack starts spilling outside the original development team would just forking the whole stack not be a smarter move for a party looking to build on NXT tech. A company could consider that as having more freedom that way.

When offering limited, licensed versions going the do-it-yourself or hiring externals route might be more interesting then when you offer the full package and make alliances with the other parties. That said I have zero to none experience in licensing that stuff to companies.

As for the post where i first mentioned this concept, having multiple chains running in a single server is just one of the ideas mentioned there, take that out and we're basically talking about the same thing. Main difference being that I proposed it without limitations. Maybe it just feels kindof unnatural to start offering limited features in open source software instead of going the partner route.

Does anyone know of open source projects that adopted this same model?
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gs02xzz

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Re: What needs to be promoted: Nxt (the platform) or NXT (the currency)?
« Reply #59 on: April 05, 2015, 01:23:35 pm »

No, this sounds really more complicated to do. It is also not clear what this cross chain interoperability means, how this will guarantee the Nxt blockchain preserves its value, and whether the companies will really want that, a foreign (Nxt) blockchain always running on the same node as their custom blockchain.

Crypti is working on this kind custom chains technology. They have not revealed if they are going to use same currency or difference currencies. Maybe the tech of Custome chains will be much clear in a couple of months. It could be a good option for the highly regulated industries.
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