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Right.Here

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What do you think about a fees adjustment in NXT ?
« on: January 08, 2018, 06:11:26 pm »

Hi :)

I found the competition between NXT is Ardor a bit unfair because of the very low fees in the child chains...

so what do you think to reduce the fees of the operational part in NXT and divide it by 10 ...

for example, the base fee for sending coins, orders opening in the AE and MS ... is 0.1 NXT instead of 1 NXT ... the dynamic fees are calculated according to 1/10

but for things that are not important like changing account info and the creations of the new coins / assets can stay as is...

the messaging, if the message is deletable its cost is divided by 10 but if it is stored forever the cost will be normal or even more expensive ...



let's give to NXT its chances to survive and evolve ...

Thank you for sharing your opinion :)
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 11:59:44 pm by Right.Here »
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Brangdon

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Re: What do you think about a fees adjustment in NXT ?
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2018, 07:14:34 pm »

The fees are already supposed to be proportional to the cost of the transaction to the system. And the low fees in Ignis are a consequence of the prunable childchain architecture, and a major reason for adopting it, so we shouldn't expect them to be replicated in Nxt.
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Right.Here

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Re: What do you think about a fees adjustment in NXT ?
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2018, 11:06:41 pm »

True, I'm not sure what the problem is.  Anybody?

True, I'm not sure what the problem is.  Anybody?
i am sure you know very well the NXT problems... like many veterans here...

i started to use NXT from the version 1.5.xx...and we lived two civil wars to change things but unfortunately what we are experiencing today in terms of prices is the repercussions of the failure of the community in the first civil war and the implementation of the dynamic fees against the will of the community and its ecosystem ... which caused the migration of the big part of the capitals invested in the NXT ecosystem to waves which is worth today 10$...

luckily for the newcomers (2nd generation) who joined NXT after ICO, we won the second war long ago and that's why NXT still exists as is today and has not been turned into Ardor... but the problem still the same...

the fees that force the NXT rate to be/stay low for the usability for example if NXT goes up to 2$, you will have to spend 2$ to send 1 NXT, 15$ to 20$ for a simple message ... 2000$ to create a new asset... and if we divides the fee by 10 the price may go up to x10 of the current price...

if we ask to jelurida or the Devs to do this... they will refuse as they did in the past but there is no problem to divide by 100 the fees of the Ardor's child chains (programmed obsolescence)...

i hope the Jelurida guys will adjust the fees in NXT leave it and the NXT community in peace... now they have the Ardor play ground and many work and thing to devlop (destroy) in it  ;D


I agree that there needs to be some changes to the fee system, especially since nxt was almost $2.  But I never understood the outcry for lowering the fees when nxt was 0.01 or less.  And I don't think this is what kept nxt out of the mainstream.


About fees,  I've been advocating some time for allowing the forgers to set their own fees.  For example, if a forger set his fee for issuing an asset at 50 nxt, when his time came up to forge a block and there was an asset issue transaction that offered 45nxt, it would not be included in the block and the issuer would have to wait for a forger who would accept his price.  Simple.

NXT belongs to Jelurida.  I am here because I believe in what they have created. As of today, my investment in the tech has resulted in a gain of 5000%.  Hard to complain.

I agree that there needs to be some changes to the fee system, especially since nxt was almost $2.  But I never understood the outcry for lowering the fees when nxt was 0.01 or less.  And I don't think this is what kept nxt out of the mainstream.

About fees,  I've been advocating some time for allowing the forgers to set their own fees.  For example, if a forger set his fee for issuing an asset at 50 nxt, when his time came up to forge a block and there was an asset issue transaction that offered 45nxt, it would not be included in the block and the issuer would have to wait for a forger who would accept his price.  Simple.

the fees are not directly related to the price but it is a major factor in terms of competitiveness compared to other coins

is the economic dynamics of an ecosystem that directly affects the value of a crypto ... and this dynamic is affected by its operational cost which indirectly links the price to the fees...

for your idea to give the forger the controle over the fees... i don't think is a good idea to keep something like this between the hands of the users... i have in mind the ICO 1coin guy and similar

Quote
NXT belongs to Jelurida.  I am here because I believe in what they have created. As of today, my investment in the tech has resulted in a gain of 5000%.  Hard to complain.

the problem with jelurida is that they do not stop to develop things and change things in the API, which forces all the world to follow this evolution and unfortunately the developers who want to write programs based on NRS and NXT leave to work on other things ... ETH like freemarket...

Quote
my investment in the tech has resulted in a gain of 5000%.
you are not alone in this  ;D ;D ;D ;D


Any chance of a 3rd civil war? :) Despite I have been with NXT since late 2013, I was not paying attention to cryptos until recently, after a few years break.

Anyway, NXT fees are too high even at the current NXT levels, the fees absolutely have to go much lower or NXT will become redundant.

Another issue I believe is a problem for both NXT and Ardor platforms is that they are too intimidating for many users. Couldn't we perhaps have something like a "simple view" that would hide anything except for the most basic info necessary to receive and send coins? That has to be an easy change.

And security - wouldn't it be possible to enable some kind of a 2 factor authentication or sending from preauthorized IPs only etc?


True, I'm not sure what the problem is.  Anybody?
i am sure you know very well the NXT problems... like many veterans here...

i started to use NXT from the version 1.5.xx...and we lived two civil wars to change things but unfortunately what we are experiencing today in terms of prices is the repercussions of the failure of the community in the first civil war and the implementation of the dynamic fees against the will of the community and its ecosystem ... which caused the migration of the big part of the capitals invested in the NXT ecosystem to waves which is worth today 10$...

luckily for the newcomers (2nd generation) who joined NXT after ICO, we won the second war long ago and that's why NXT still exists as is today and has not been turned into Ardor... but the problem still the same...

the fees that force the NXT rate to be/stay low for the usability for example if NXT goes up to 2$, you will have to spend 2$ to send 1 NXT, 15$ to 20$ for a simple message ... 2000$ to create a new asset... and if we divides the fee by 10 the price may go up to x10 of the current price...

if we ask to jelurida or the Devs to do this... they will refuse as they did in the past but there is no problem to divide by 100 the fees of the Ardor's child chains (programmed obsolescence)...

i hope the Jelurida guys will adjust the fees in NXT leave it and the NXT community in peace... now they have the Ardor play ground and many work and thing to devlop (destroy) in it  ;D
I don't blame low fees for the exodus. I blame lack of backwards compatibility. Devs need a stable platform, and Nxt didn't provide it. That's a big part of why at least some devs left. Jelurida took the view that the database library they used would make breaking changes and therefore so could they. Hopefully Ardor will be better, although I wouldn't bet on it. The recent decision to have a hard fork without giving exchanges enough time to update, creating chaos, shows they still think the world revolves around them.

The reason there's no problem setting Ignis fees to be 1% of Nxt fees is the pruning child-chain architecture. It's one of the major benefits to justify the upheaval of moving. You can't expect to see Ignis-like fees in Nxt.

I wouldn't expect any changes to Nxt that don't come from Ardor or from Nxt clones. In my view its been clear for over a year that Ardor is the future. So, if you want dynamic fees in Nxt you'll need to implement it yourself, or pay someone to.

I had often thought, and occasionally verbalized on this forum, that Ardor should completely replace NXT.  However, many people had businesses up and running using NXT and those weren't transferrable to Ardor.  So Jelurida agreed to keep NXT going and promised support for 1-2 years. It will continue to live as long as just one person maintains the blockchain.

Cryptocurrency is new technology and it must evolve.  Early on, it evolved fast and there were (and will continue to be) hard forks.  There have been at least 3-4 since NXT started.  As Ardor gets stable, there will be less hard forks.  Each fork, though, represents evolution and improvement. 

One of Bitcoin's fatal flaws, among others, is the inability to evolve.  In the next 10 years, as people recognize Bitcoin's limitations and life expectancy, they will start migrating to other cryptocurrencies.  We need to see that Ardor is fully up and running by then so we can be an attractive alternative to all the others.  I hope and pray that Jelurida will adequately promote Ardor to ensure it remains visible during that time.  I also pray that Jelurida aren't just out buying their lambos right now.  They've earned them though.  Maybe just one each... :)

your opinion is important, please share what you think about a 1/10 reduction in the fees
thank you  :D
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Right.Here

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Re: What do you think about a fees adjustment in NXT ?
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2018, 11:27:23 pm »

@Brangdon:
do you remember why this dynamic fees system has been added?

it was a sort of answer to the problem of the stagnation of the NXT ecosystem after its first ICO / distribution ... people and external devs to Jelurida were waiting for them to reduce the fees for a better usability ... so to stimulate the ecosystem and make it more profitable for the forgers ... they added more fees in addition to programming problems...

Quote
...I don't blame low fees for the exodus. I blame lack of backwards compatibility....
what is to blame here is not inside a computer at all  ;D ;D ;D ;D

our beloved developers are excellent developers but very bad economists and businessmans ... where did you ever seen in the world that to stimulate an economy, we must increase taxes?

note that after the announcement of the trump tax cut in the United States, all the markets are back to the green lands, some have broken records ... and economic growth has +/- resumed its course...

that's what we want to do in NXT with this fees reduction ...
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Brangdon

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Re: What do you think about a fees adjustment in NXT ?
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2018, 09:15:50 pm »

@Brangdon:
do you remember why this dynamic fees system has been added?
By "dynamic fees", do you mean different fees for different transaction types? I thought they were another attempt to address scalability, by making fees proportional to costs. I don't recall any transaction ever being less than 1 NXT. When NXT was 10c it didn't seem a big problem. Don't worry - those days will be back soon.
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Right.Here

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Re: What do you think about a fees adjustment in NXT ?
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2018, 09:32:54 pm »

@Brangdon:
do you remember why this dynamic fees system has been added?
By "dynamic fees", do you mean different fees for different transaction types? I thought they were another attempt to address scalability, by making fees proportional to costs. I don't recall any transaction ever being less than 1 NXT. When NXT was 10c it didn't seem a big problem. Don't worry - those days will be back soon.

this year is going to be the worst year of all cryptos ...
from what I read ... hope that all this is only governments trolling because if they are serious = those days will never back  ;D
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Right.Here

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Re: What do you think about a fees adjustment in NXT ?
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2018, 12:25:39 am »

 ???
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kermitas

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Re: What do you think about a fees adjustment in NXT ?
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2018, 04:44:01 pm »

our beloved developers are excellent developers
Please keep in mind that your 'beloved', 'excellent' developers in behave of you are not following software development best practices causing mess, technological debt and thus that slower progress as well as higher costs/expenses (for core team as well as for community).

* - currently I am doing Ardor wallet translation into Polish and if I can see mess in that simple area then I can just suspect what is going on in other parts of the software... 
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Bigdata

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Re: What do you think about a fees adjustment in NXT ?
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2018, 07:16:18 am »

i am sure you know very well the NXT problems... like many veterans here...

i started to use NXT from the version 1.5.xx...and we lived two civil wars to change things but unfortunately what we are experiencing today in terms of prices is the repercussions of the failure of the community in the first civil war and the implementation of the dynamic fees against the will of the community and its ecosystem ... which caused the migration of the big part of the capitals invested in the NXT ecosystem to waves which is worth today 10$...

luckily for the newcomers (2nd generation) who joined NXT after ICO, we won the second war long ago and that's why NXT still exists as is today and has not been turned into Ardor... but the problem still the same...

the fees that force the NXT rate to be/stay low for the usability for example if NXT goes up to 2$, you will have to spend 2$ to send 1 NXT, 15$ to 20$ for a simple message ... 2000$ to create a new asset... and if we divides the fee by 10 the price may go up to x10 of the current price...

if we ask to jelurida or the Devs to do this... they will refuse as they did in the past but there is no problem to divide by 100 the fees of the Ardor's child chains (programmed obsolescence)...

















[

czhang

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Re: What do you think about a fees adjustment in NXT ?
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2018, 10:46:40 am »

I also think the fee is too expensive
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AltcoinWarrior

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Re: What do you think about a fees adjustment in NXT ?
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2018, 10:22:58 pm »

Even if none of the other exorbitant NXT fees are lowered, at very least the most basic transactions (i.e. 2 NXT or less) should be dropped to 1/10 of that. 8)

It's really hard to get people excited about NXT with such noticeably high fees!  ::)
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Brangdon

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Re: What do you think about a fees adjustment in NXT ?
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2018, 07:34:47 pm »

Currently they're around 20c. That's not far off the 10c they've been historically - and they may get there in a month or two if the price continues to drop. They need to be high enough to deter spam.
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AltcoinWarrior

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Re: What do you think about a fees adjustment in NXT ?
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2018, 05:34:37 am »

Point well taken:

They need to be high enough to deter spam.

However, at these rates it's also severely stifling (read "neutering") NXT adoption... there's gotta be some kind of fair compromise that reflects the concerns of this thread. ???
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Right.Here

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Re: What do you think about a fees adjustment in NXT ?
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2018, 08:33:56 pm »

Hi  :D

please take a look in this pool:
Poll ID: 71954785755435233

100% yes  :D
Thank you all
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neofelis

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Re: What do you think about a fees adjustment in NXT ?
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2018, 02:48:45 am »

How hard would it be to let the forgers determine their own fees? If a forger has earned the right to form the next block, they should be able to set their fees for each type of transaction.  If a transaction offers too small of fee, it may take awhile until it gets picked up in a block. Simple markers forces would determine fees.
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Brangdon

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Re: What do you think about a fees adjustment in NXT ?
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2018, 06:41:27 pm »

How hard would it be to let the forgers determine their own fees? If a forger has earned the right to form the next block, they should be able to set their fees for each type of transaction.  If a transaction offers too small of fee, it may take awhile until it gets picked up in a block. Simple markers forces would determine fees.
Forgers are allowed to raise transactions fees as high as they like. In practice the incremental cost of processing a transaction is so low that there's no point rejecting low-fee transactions unless the block is full, and currently blocks are rarely full.

Allowing forgers to lower fees would risk spam. Transactions are not just a cost to the forger who forges them: they cost everyone who runs a full node. So accepting low fees is antisocial.
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Right.Here

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Re: What do you think about a fees adjustment in NXT ?
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2018, 11:48:31 pm »

.... So accepting low fees is antisocial.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
dear Brangdon, you have sold all your NXTs and you are a full Ardorian now  :o so shuuuuut or i will call my anti-Ardorians exorcist  ;D ;D ;D ;D

How hard would it be to let the forgers determine their own fees? If a forger has earned the right to form the next block, they should be able to set their fees for each type of transaction.  If a transaction offers too small of fee, it may take awhile until it gets picked up in a block. Simple markers forces would determine fees.

i do not agree with putting a human middle man between the end user and the blockchain ... the fees must be managed by the system impartially...

for the risks of spam, if someone wants to spam it will do it even with 5NXT fees like the sabotage attempt of the ignis ICO... it's jelurida that have enemies and not the NXT community... these enemies are more active now on ardor than NXT which reduces the risk margin

one of the ideas behind this adjustment is not only to abuse everything that is prenable but inventing new ones like a trollbox using the prenable messages stuff... a low cost advertising system where you can advertise your marketplace, MS coins or asset... i did it in my NBCK with 0 java line of code (full UI stuff...)

this adjustment will also encourage people to use things that are important but neglected because of its cost like marketplace images... and there is things which have become obsolete and have no sense like the cost of creating a new MS coin with 3 letter ...
it had a sense in the era where the exchanges did not accept the coins with more than 3 letters but now they accept up to 6 so ..., i suggest to put a unified cost for the creation of new coins at 1000 NXT same as the assets ... this is an anti spam thing...
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SwissAlps

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Re: What do you think about a fees adjustment in NXT ?
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2018, 09:39:39 am »

Hi  :D

please can you continue this dicussion about the fees here... just to centralize the info and the opinions...
https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/what-do-you-think-about-a-fees-adjustment-in-nxt/
Thank you  ;D


....

Changing the NXT fees would be a very small step in the direction to revive this chain, in my very humble opinion.

We have fees because we want to avoid spammers...and it's working so well that we do not have transactions anymore on the chain.

Who wants to use the Asset Exchange if every time you have to pay 1 NXT (20 cents) per order ???

This fees problem has been regularly surging since the beginning, already discussed a lot. Here my proposal :
  • the last ten blocks were empty, no transaction at all, fees 0.001 NXT
  • the last ten blocks were filled less than 10%, fees 0.01 NXT
  • the last ten blocks were filled less than 50%, fees 0.05 NXT
  • the last ten blocks were filled less than 90%, fees 0.1 NXT
  • equal to 90% fees or more, fees stay like they are today, 1 NXT

Note that the miners do not loose anything, they win a lot more if the block is full  :)
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fz

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Re: What do you think about a fees adjustment in NXT ?
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2018, 02:21:47 pm »

I think it's important to adjust the NXT transaction fees
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ThomasVeil

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Re: What do you think about a fees adjustment in NXT ?
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2018, 04:10:32 pm »

Why not set a desired transaction amount per time frame... and then adjust fees over time.

Example: Let's aim for 10.000 transactions per week are the target. Then the default fee is 0.1 per transaction.

Let's say the network gets 20k transactions ... so next week the difficulty adjusts. The fee would be 0.2 NXT.
Or it drops to 5k transactions... the fee adjusts to 0.05 NXT.

That way, if there are few transactions, it would be cheap and we would invite more action. If there are too many, which would clog the network, the price would prohibit spamming.
This would need some tweaks... but just throwing it out there.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2018, 01:06:18 pm by ThomasVeil »
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