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Time for drastic measures - Nxt 2.0 – The Nxt Phoenix singapore
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Author Topic: Time for drastic measures - Nxt 2.0 – The Nxt Phoenix  (Read 18719 times)

xchrix

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Re: Time for drastic measures - Nxt 2.0 – The Nxt Phoenix
« Reply #40 on: March 23, 2016, 11:27:54 am »

"How far we went with only 21 BTC! "

i like this!!  :)
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apenzl

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Re: Time for drastic measures - Nxt 2.0 – The Nxt Phoenix
« Reply #41 on: March 23, 2016, 03:50:05 pm »

K, let’s throw everything up in the air then.
.....
Be back later.

Hi again

It will not have the network effect of the original chain, it will only have the new investors owning tokens on it.
Yes.

Nxt investors can invest too, if they believe in the project. Active Nxters get rewards in tokens.
Lots of people here work for bounties in other tokens than Nxt now. Maybe it’s about time to bring them back.

The developers will be in a constant conflict of interest, if they push the new chain as default, original stakeholders will feel abandoned, if they push the original chain, investors will feel they have been sold game money that are not in real demand.

Nxt core devs push the original chain.

NxtX is not directly your project to develop. You develop Nxt / FXT.

Advise and good communication (consultations) would be good.
NxtX stakes and some % of the ICO money would be redirected to you, because it's a Nxt based project. 

NxtX would maybe become a “Litecoin” to Nxt original chain, but it’s a business like any other sidechain would be.
Unless sidechains are meant to be only for currency gateways and businesses who want to issue concert tickets with MS.

You can't expect the investors to take care of promoting the new chain, they put the money in, they expect you to do the work.

Exactly, therefore an ICO.

NxtX would be hard work.
Nxt community based, but with goals of its own, own board / foundation.

First thing to do would be to get specific, make the plan. For NxtX, not for Nxt.
Specify roles, goal, who to hire, budget, milestones, business plan, all the usual work required for a professional startup.

Nxt Foundation or core dev team members could be part of the NxtX board too. The idea here was a partnership / collaboration, for mutual benefit.

If we try to promote both, a user coming to nxt.org will not know which client to download and which chain to use.

Nxt.org must promote Nxt.

By promoting Nxt it will also promote childchains.
NxtX will be a childchain. But maybe Nxt.org should not promote children, only the mother. I think you’re right.

Nxter.org will do it then :) Just like any other promising project relevant to Nxt or which uses Nxt in a significant way.

And NxtX will of course promote itself. By doing so, being a Nxt childchain, it will add to the original Nxt network effect.

Your comment that
Quote
Such second chain will just have no reason to exist.
opens up new questions, I think.

I just tossed this NxtX idea up in the air, because we have the probably most important decision in the history of Nxt to make, and all crazy stupid or wise proposals should be aired asap, imho. If nothing else, then to inspire and spark the relevant discussion. But we need to know what the options are. And what they're not. The better informed the community is, the higher the quality of the discussion.

Initial idea for white label chains evolved from a wish to make a (better) alternative to forking Nxt, as I remember it.
That idea has naturally evolved too, but into what?

Could you give examples of what would give a childchain "reason to exist", in your opinion?

Is it meant as just an example that childchains are for businesses, or is that the full plan?
Are issuance of childchains supposed to fund core dev and Nxt Foundation?
Will you check the legality of childchain founders? Will you sign contracts with childchain founders?

Will non-profit organisations, for example, pushing local currencies (MS), be allowed a chain?
Would they have to make a payment (besides for FXT) to the devs and Nxt Foundation to have a childchain issued?

Do we have a way to peg another currency to a childchain token, or are we currently "just talking"?

Thanks.

PS. Sorry about the wall of text. + If anyone else can answer the above questions, oh please do. @damelon @evildave @channel  ;)

Nxter

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Re: Time for drastic measures - Nxt 2.0 – The Nxt Phoenix
« Reply #42 on: March 23, 2016, 08:38:09 pm »

K, let’s throw everything up in the air then.
.....
Be back later.

Hi again
......



I really like your vision. It´s beautiful. If you look at it, it is just the original Nxt 2.0 plan.

Your proposition basically is to make use of Nxt 2.0 technology and launch a well-funded childchain with a corporate soul and business oriented, focusing on the AE and usability. If we wrap this this idea nicely and have a good leader, a public face, we could launch a successful ICO on it.

This childchain starts fresh, without initial distribution problems, well-funded after a large ICO, with the experience of +2 years of Nxt well learned and with a new identity: let´s call this new childchain Stream for example.

Stream would prioritize over all the usability and nice design of the client: easy to install, easy to use, beautiful and with a enhanced asset exchange.

Nxt and Stream would both live on FXT blockchain, helping and learning from each other.

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devlux

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Re: Time for drastic measures - Nxt 2.0 – The Nxt Phoenix
« Reply #43 on: March 25, 2016, 01:58:09 am »

Here's an idea!  Don't do that. At all! 

You guys want to be this new and shiny crap, but you forget you're building tools that really serious big players are taking a long hard look at.  They want to make the investment, they start exploring the place that this could have in their org.  It might take 6 months or a year or more and you might not hear about it, because it's not some pump and dump scheme and sometimes things don't work out.

You want to talk about killer apps?
I'm 99% certain that NXT is the platform that was used for this votingcenter dot us/utgop2016/vote/#/bulletin

What I do know for certain is that my org uses NXT in it's current incarnation to manage our entire share distribution and run shareholder voting. 
We selected NXT because you guys DIDN'T look like you were ever going to pull a bitshares.

People are bawling because NXT price is dropping.  NXT, bitcoin, bitshares, litecoin etc value is solely in their utility.  Sorry, but if I can't rely on the API to be stable, the nodes to be there and my coins to be safe, then you have 0 utility to me.  That bit about expropriation has thrown a wrench in everything we were planning to do here, you need to burn that idea with fire and nuke it from orbit.

Things don't get built overnight and in our case we have to show hundreds of people your product in order to get just a single investor in ours.

To new users, you're a moon man from the future.  The only thing that they see is your UI.  Everything I'm getting in feedback is that it's a cluttered mess.  It's way too busy, with way too much going on and when people login for the first time, they see the clutter and "something about plugins aren't enabled on my account, and what's this forging business are they claiming your committing forgery?  Wait what's this marketplace thing?  OMG you buy drugs with this shit WTF?"

See what I'm saying?  Disclaimer or not, things like that need to be removed from the UI and only present in the UI when I specifically ask for them. 

You want funds?   Fine, you could do an ICO no problem.  Even call it 2.0.  I would recommend you do it directly on your platform though.  You'll make fools of yourselves if you ask for bitcoin for this.   Do it directly on the platform, show how powerful it is.  Make sure to stress that you intend to maintain full backwards compatibility though or you're going to lose every one that's trying to build on top of this thing.

Next, hire someone to clean up the UI.  I realize you've put a real effort into the bells and whistles, but from a user perspective it's just not clean and simple.

It's not from the 90s or anything, but it is a mess. Consider a switch over to Angular 2.0 with Typescript and use Angular materials for your design.  Every single person will look at NXT like it's the newest coolest thing evar!

Change the word "forging" to something people will understand like "enable earnings mode".  Don't ditch the market, but take all of that junk, not just the market, but the whole works on the left hand menu bar and disable it from the UI by default, then allow the UI to be pluggable or at least switchable and don't have the thing bitch about plugins are not enabled for the account, that just scares users for no good reason.. 
Make it clearer that they can enhance the UI by turning these things on. 

In otherwords, your UI sends the message that you care more about feature creep than user experience, sorry but there I said it.

Please leave off on "big changes".  Do a 2.0 for the UI, but leave API identical and consider doing a single large consolidation block that carries over everything still outstanding after a year or so.  This will keep the blockchain from bloating too much which gives you an edge.

I haven't checked the code to see, but smart contracts are all the rage these days and I don't see you supporting them.  Docs I've read don't make mention of it at any rate.  If they aren't there, remember that you're built on top of Java 8.  Consider Nashorn as a possible smart contracts platform.  It should be reasonably simple to put together a "drag and drop" smart contracts builder so people don't have to learn a programming language to build a contract and with the built in messaging it should be simple to pass a contract back and forth for signing then upload.

Doing this would literally take the wind out of ETH's sails.  FYI ETH won't build on the next version of Ubuntu at this moment in time.  NXT works out of the box, you should consider asking debian or ubuntu to put NXT in the repos.  If that happened then you could get some of that yummy "blockchain as a service" love from Azure which would attract even more people.

One other thing.  Please make a daily blockchain snapshot download the default on new installs.  It shouldn't take a week or more to download the friggin chain.  A snapshot is fine, we all trust you.  Host it in drop box or something.
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martismartis

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Re: Time for drastic measures - Nxt 2.0 – The Nxt Phoenix
« Reply #44 on: March 25, 2016, 05:32:29 am »

^^^^ This. I fully agree with NRS GUI, make MS, DGS, plugins, etc. optional, in settings.
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zuqka

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Re: Time for drastic measures - Nxt 2.0 – The Nxt Phoenix
« Reply #45 on: March 25, 2016, 06:31:51 am »

@devlux: 100% agree
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bidji29

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Re: Time for drastic measures - Nxt 2.0 – The Nxt Phoenix
« Reply #46 on: March 25, 2016, 06:39:34 am »

Yeah, this guy feedback is extremely important, hope it's heard. Especially the UI part. The current UI should stay the same, but be the "advanced" UI. And we should add a default "simple" UI, to not scare new people and non-tech people.

-For your concern of expropriation, don't worry, it's not gonna happen. It's just an idea from the Original poster.

-For the 2.0 change of current chain, it consist of tranforming the NXT main chain into a child chain (without forging). So I think API and all that shouldn't change. But we need a dev to confirm that.
It's really needed for scalability, so i don't think devs will scrap it.

-And for the new ICO, we can't just ask for NXT. We need BTC. Why? Because we need to compete with all the shiny crap. And they have massive funding.
NXT only raised 21 btc for its ICO and it was 3 years ago. Now to continue development, it's neccessary to get some more funding, and why not use the current hype around ICO.




Can you share more details about how you're using the NXT platform?
And what make you think votingcenter.us/utgop2016/vote/#/bulletin is using NXT? Do you have some contact there?
« Last Edit: March 25, 2016, 06:49:47 am by bidji29 »
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bidji29

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Re: Time for drastic measures - Nxt 2.0 – The Nxt Phoenix
« Reply #47 on: March 25, 2016, 06:40:28 am »

(double)
« Last Edit: March 25, 2016, 06:44:16 am by bidji29 »
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xchrix

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Re: Time for drastic measures - Nxt 2.0 – The Nxt Phoenix
« Reply #48 on: March 25, 2016, 08:57:19 am »

i agree with EVERYTHING devlux said!!
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Re: Time for drastic measures - Nxt 2.0 – The Nxt Phoenix
« Reply #49 on: March 25, 2016, 09:28:25 am »

devlux leave godlike feedback
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Riker

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Re: Time for drastic measures - Nxt 2.0 – The Nxt Phoenix
« Reply #50 on: March 25, 2016, 09:31:29 am »

Here's an idea!  Don't do that. At all! 

Hi devlux, welcome to community. Well written thought provoking post.
The link you posted is for https://ivotingcenter.gop/utgop2016/vote/#/ right ?

I tend to agree with some of what you wrote and disagree with other statements.

I mean, we surely need to do something about the plugin warning but re-writing the client using cool tech XYZ is probably not gonna happen.
Starting the client in simple mode and then allow users to switch to advanced mode ? I'm afraid that most users won't find the advance switch and will just dismiss NXT as yet another clone.
Think about the client wallet as reference implementation of the server APIs.
You can always develop a domain specific client yourself based on this reference client which is provided under MIT license.

We do care about backward compatibility and will do everything we can to maintain it, but we do need to continue to innovate. 
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bidji29

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Re: Time for drastic measures - Nxt 2.0 – The Nxt Phoenix
« Reply #51 on: March 25, 2016, 09:54:06 am »

The link you posted is for https://ivotingcenter.gop/utgop2016/vote/#/ right ?
No, try clicking on any field

Starting the client in simple mode and then allow users to switch to advanced mode ? I'm afraid that most users won't find the advance switch and will just dismiss NXT as yet another clone.
No that's not making any sense. People that wouldn't find the advance switch are exactly the people we don't want to scare = The non-tech normal people
Those people doesn't even know the concept of clone. What are you afraid about?
People that care about that are tech-friendly enough to find a simple switch
You're too deep into programming and development to get how  normal people don't really know a things about all that.
We need to attract them too, and it need to be in the official release
« Last Edit: March 25, 2016, 10:03:20 am by bidji29 »
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NXT ENTERPRISE

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Re: Time for drastic measures - Nxt 2.0 – The Nxt Phoenix
« Reply #52 on: March 25, 2016, 09:54:48 am »

There is a lot of good ideas here and i hope the devs take a look at it



Here's an idea!  Don't do that. At all! 

You guys want to be this new and shiny crap, but you forget you're building tools that really serious big players are taking a long hard look at.  They want to make the investment, they start exploring the place that this could have in their org.  It might take 6 months or a year or more and you might not hear about it, because it's not some pump and dump scheme and sometimes things don't work out.

You want to talk about killer apps?
I'm 99% certain that NXT is the platform that was used for this votingcenter dot us/utgop2016/vote/#/bulletin

What I do know for certain is that my org uses NXT in it's current incarnation to manage our entire share distribution and run shareholder voting. 
We selected NXT because you guys DIDN'T look like you were ever going to pull a bitshares.

People are bawling because NXT price is dropping.  NXT, bitcoin, bitshares, litecoin etc value is solely in their utility.  Sorry, but if I can't rely on the API to be stable, the nodes to be there and my coins to be safe, then you have 0 utility to me.  That bit about expropriation has thrown a wrench in everything we were planning to do here, you need to burn that idea with fire and nuke it from orbit.

Things don't get built overnight and in our case we have to show hundreds of people your product in order to get just a single investor in ours.

To new users, you're a moon man from the future.  The only thing that they see is your UI.  Everything I'm getting in feedback is that it's a cluttered mess.  It's way too busy, with way too much going on and when people login for the first time, they see the clutter and "something about plugins aren't enabled on my account, and what's this forging business are they claiming your committing forgery?  Wait what's this marketplace thing?  OMG you buy drugs with this shit WTF?"

See what I'm saying?  Disclaimer or not, things like that need to be removed from the UI and only present in the UI when I specifically ask for them. 

You want funds?   Fine, you could do an ICO no problem.  Even call it 2.0.  I would recommend you do it directly on your platform though.  You'll make fools of yourselves if you ask for bitcoin for this.   Do it directly on the platform, show how powerful it is.  Make sure to stress that you intend to maintain full backwards compatibility though or you're going to lose every one that's trying to build on top of this thing.

Next, hire someone to clean up the UI.  I realize you've put a real effort into the bells and whistles, but from a user perspective it's just not clean and simple.

It's not from the 90s or anything, but it is a mess. Consider a switch over to Angular 2.0 with Typescript and use Angular materials for your design.  Every single person will look at NXT like it's the newest coolest thing evar!

Change the word "forging" to something people will understand like "enable earnings mode".  Don't ditch the market, but take all of that junk, not just the market, but the whole works on the left hand menu bar and disable it from the UI by default, then allow the UI to be pluggable or at least switchable and don't have the thing bitch about plugins are not enabled for the account, that just scares users for no good reason.. 
Make it clearer that they can enhance the UI by turning these things on. 

In otherwords, your UI sends the message that you care more about feature creep than user experience, sorry but there I said it.

Please leave off on "big changes".  Do a 2.0 for the UI, but leave API identical and consider doing a single large consolidation block that carries over everything still outstanding after a year or so.  This will keep the blockchain from bloating too much which gives you an edge.

I haven't checked the code to see, but smart contracts are all the rage these days and I don't see you supporting them.  Docs I've read don't make mention of it at any rate.  If they aren't there, remember that you're built on top of Java 8.  Consider Nashorn as a possible smart contracts platform.  It should be reasonably simple to put together a "drag and drop" smart contracts builder so people don't have to learn a programming language to build a contract and with the built in messaging it should be simple to pass a contract back and forth for signing then upload.

Doing this would literally take the wind out of ETH's sails.  FYI ETH won't build on the next version of Ubuntu at this moment in time.  NXT works out of the box, you should consider asking debian or ubuntu to put NXT in the repos.  If that happened then you could get some of that yummy "blockchain as a service" love from Azure which would attract even more people.

One other thing.  Please make a daily blockchain snapshot download the default on new installs.  It shouldn't take a week or more to download the friggin chain.  A snapshot is fine, we all trust you.  Host it in drop box or something.
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martismartis

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Re: Time for drastic measures - Nxt 2.0 – The Nxt Phoenix
« Reply #53 on: March 25, 2016, 10:14:54 am »

Here's an idea!  Don't do that. At all! 

Hi devlux, welcome to community. Well written thought provoking post.
The link you posted is for https://ivotingcenter.gop/utgop2016/vote/#/ right ?

I tend to agree with some of what you wrote and disagree with other statements.

I mean, we surely need to do something about the plugin warning but re-writing the client using cool tech XYZ is probably not gonna happen.
Starting the client in simple mode and then allow users to switch to advanced mode ? I'm afraid that most users won't find the advance switch and will just dismiss NXT as yet another clone.
Think about the client wallet as reference implementation of the server APIs.
You can always develop a domain specific client yourself based on this reference client which is provided under MIT license.

We do care about backward compatibility and will do everything we can to maintain it, but we do need to continue to innovate.

Why not to include some user manual or documentation with how to do this and what features are inside installation bundle?
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testdruif

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Re: Time for drastic measures - Nxt 2.0 – The Nxt Phoenix
« Reply #54 on: March 25, 2016, 10:23:15 am »

Starting the client in simple mode and then allow users to switch to advanced mode ? I'm afraid that most users won't find the advance switch and will just dismiss NXT as yet another clone.

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Peter2516

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Re: Time for drastic measures - Nxt 2.0 – The Nxt Phoenix
« Reply #55 on: March 25, 2016, 10:30:16 am »

Yeah, or the way SuperNET Lite client switches from simple to advanced interface, a big button.
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EvilDave

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Re: Time for drastic measures - Nxt 2.0 – The Nxt Phoenix
« Reply #56 on: March 25, 2016, 10:52:48 am »

Having read through the post, I vote devlux for president  :D

Good points, well made. Don't agree with everything, but I do agree with a lot, especially on simplifying the Nxt user experience.
I'll be coming back to this, got a meeting coming up.
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Re: Time for drastic measures - Nxt 2.0 – The Nxt Phoenix
« Reply #57 on: March 25, 2016, 11:11:13 am »

Having read through the post, I vote devlux for president  :D

Good points, well made. Don't agree with everything, but I do agree with a lot, especially on simplifying the Nxt user experience.
I'll be coming back to this, got a meeting coming up.
Thats the spirit
I hope we agree to drop the initiatives to change the name, it would be a shame to lose the coolest name ever: NXT
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Re: Time for drastic measures - Nxt 2.0 – The Nxt Phoenix
« Reply #58 on: March 25, 2016, 12:06:06 pm »

Starting the client in simple mode and then allow users to switch to advanced mode ? I'm afraid that most users won't find the advance switch and will just dismiss NXT as yet another clone.
Maybe offer two clients. One at http://localhost:7876/simple.html and one at http://localhost:7876/full.html. The people who are likely to be scared off will pick the simple one, and they'll be aware that a more complex one is available. The people who want to see all that Nxt has to offer will pick the full one.

(I think "full" is a better name than "advanced".)

This could also be done with two downloads, sticking with http://localhost:7876/, but having a single download is probably easier for the devs. Although http://localhost:7876/ is a nicer URL than something with an extra suffix, it's not discoverable so I don't think appending "simple" or "full" makes it much worse. Maybe the http://localhost:7876/ page should offer links to the other two pages.

Quote
You can always develop a domain specific client yourself based on this reference client which is provided under MIT license.
Sure. But we're discussing the default, out-of-the-box experience, not what might be done by someone else who wants to promote Nxt their own way.
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testdruif

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Re: Time for drastic measures - Nxt 2.0 – The Nxt Phoenix
« Reply #59 on: March 25, 2016, 01:18:41 pm »

Quickly put something together.

The "escape from where I am" is the big fat NXT logo top left (which will get you back to the dashboard)



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