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The Reorg: Postmortem
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Author Topic: The Reorg: Postmortem  (Read 6455 times)

Come-from-Beyond

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The Reorg: Postmortem
« on: August 16, 2014, 07:23:27 am »

Well, the rollback have not happened, now it's a good moment to explain some details...

First of all that was not a rollback attempt from technical point of view. Nxt protocol allows to reorganizate last 720 blocks, so let's call it "The Blockchain Reorganization" for the sake of truth (trolls and haters are free to call it "rollback", I don't mind).

The reorg was safe for the network coz would not cancel legit transactions, all of them would be confirmed into the first blocks (not surprising, that why magic numbers of 24h deadline and 720 allowed chain reorg depth were chosen by BCNext).

Majority of the forgers (measured in controlled stake) decided not to bother with the reorg. I would say less than 1/3 of the active stake (including 50M controlled by BTER), this assessment is based on average base target of the new branch (~1500%, usually it's below 500%).

If the new branch outpaced the old one then all other nodes, that didn't update software, would accept the new branch without any problems.

In the future even 720-block window will be removed coz of 90% attack protection, so later we won't be able to enjoy such a show.

That's it, thank u for ur attention.
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bitcoinpaul

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Re: The Reorg: Postmortem
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2014, 07:29:13 am »

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Fatih87SK

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Re: The Reorg: Postmortem
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2014, 07:30:04 am »

If we build a better security into NXT we would minimize the chance for these kind of shows.

Thanks for the explanation.
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Evan

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Re: The Reorg: Postmortem
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2014, 07:35:26 am »

If we build a better security into NXT we would minimize the chance for these kind of shows.

We need Account Control
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wesley

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Re: The Reorg: Postmortem
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2014, 07:39:57 am »

If we build a better security into NXT we would minimize the chance for these kind of shows.

We need Account Control

Tech Committee was asked for bounty on account control feature on august 7th. But apparently they want more info before deciding on size of bounty. http://wiki.nxtcrypto.org/wiki/Account_Control is not enough.
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Fatih87SK

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Re: The Reorg: Postmortem
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2014, 07:43:29 am »

Also I think you should made this topic yesterday, because everyone was lost. Even the media.

You opened a topic called; forgers stands with a choice. And today you explain what the choices really were and what the new release of JLP really does.

I bet you enjoyed the show =)

JLP also was cryptic about what his release did. And you know him. After a new release he vanishes from the forum and get to work again.

Once again. Terrible organization =)

We need to get this 'Organization' thing done as well.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2014, 07:45:38 am by Fatih87SK »
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Peter2516

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Re: The Reorg: Postmortem
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2014, 07:44:58 am »

Why was a 'Reorganization' option built into the code?
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jl777

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Re: The Reorg: Postmortem
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2014, 07:49:20 am »

If we build a better security into NXT we would minimize the chance for these kind of shows.

We need Account Control

Tech Committee was asked for bounty on account control feature on august 7th. But apparently they want more info before deciding on size of bounty. http://wiki.nxtcrypto.org/wiki/Account_Control is not enough.
how much is needed to get this done?
If we have a dev that can do it and it is not started for lack of funds, I will put up the funds from NXTcommunityfunds if the price is affordable
I have wanted this for many months
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Valtiel

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Re: The Reorg: Postmortem
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2014, 07:49:43 am »

well. soemthing relevant here is. that not was a nxt native problem based on a bug backdoor or anything like. the 50m robbery was cause by the same issue every crypto and fiat suffer. dumb/naive/clueless people doing something stupid.
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Jacinto

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Re: The Reorg: Postmortem
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2014, 07:51:00 am »

Why was a 'Reorganization' option built into the code?

I suppose, to repair possible fatal bugs in the code.
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neofelis

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Re: The Reorg: Postmortem
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2014, 07:51:14 am »

We need a blacklist of accounts. Any NXT that gets sent to an account from a blacklisted acct causes that other acct to be placed on the blacklist as well UNLESS that acct forwards the stolen funds to the original theft victim.  That would be the only way to get off the blacklist. That would be a strong incentive to not do business with the thieves account if it would taint all your legitimate NXT's.

It seems like this sort of protocol could easily be coded into the core software and run without human input.

The only question I haven't solved is how an acct get placed on the blacklist to begin with.   

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wesley

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Re: The Reorg: Postmortem
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2014, 07:51:41 am »

If we build a better security into NXT we would minimize the chance for these kind of shows.

We need Account Control

Tech Committee was asked for bounty on account control feature on august 7th. But apparently they want more info before deciding on size of bounty. http://wiki.nxtcrypto.org/wiki/Account_Control is not enough.
how much is needed to get this done?
If we have a dev that can do it and it is not started for lack of funds, I will put up the funds from NXTcommunityfunds if the price is affordable
I have wanted this for many months

We have a dev (outsider) for it recommended by another dev. Now obviously we do not know what the price of NXT will be when the dust has settled so it's hard to give an estimate. Just think, community, how much this feature would be worth to you. Maybe we can do a collective bounty on this?

Account control would for example allow to set a rule to only withdraw 5% max of your total NXT per day, which would have stopped this attack.

Kushti is starting to work on phasing by the way. He recieves NXT monthly but I believe this specific work also deserves a bounty for it's usefulness.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2014, 07:53:47 am by wesleyh »
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Eadeqa

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Re: The Reorg: Postmortem
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2014, 08:09:28 am »

Well, the rollback have not happened, now it's a good moment to explain some details...

First of all that was not a rollback attempt from technical point of view. Nxt protocol allows to reorganizate last 720 blocks, so let's call it "The Blockchain Reorganization" for the sake of truth (trolls and haters are free to call it "rollback", I don't mind).


There was a lot of confusion about what "rollback" means.  If "Reorg" part was made clear, more people would have run the "Reorg" version. Even the link was removed for hours. Bter themselves weren't forging with the new version (now that's stupid -- or they didn't know? That account had 50 million, would have made big difference).

Why do people keep that much money on the exchange? We even have lightweight clients (trade.secure, nxtblocks, mynxtinfo).

Everyone who lost Nxt, list it:
 
(1) Zero for me.



« Last Edit: August 16, 2014, 08:15:35 am by Eadeqa »
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Valtiel

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Re: The Reorg: Postmortem
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2014, 08:11:41 am »

We need a blacklist of accounts. Any NXT that gets sent to an account from a blacklisted acct causes that other acct to be placed on the blacklist as well UNLESS that acct forwards the stolen funds to the original theft victim.  That would be the only way to get off the blacklist. That would be a strong incentive to not do business with the thieves account if it would taint all your legitimate NXT's.

It seems like this sort of protocol could easily be coded into the core software and run without human input.

The only question I haven't solved is how an acct get placed on the blacklist to begin with.
+1440
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Come-from-Beyond

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Re: The Reorg: Postmortem
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2014, 08:17:05 am »

Why was a 'Reorganization' option built into the code?

This is how distributed consensus via blockchain technology works.
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Peter2516

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Re: The Reorg: Postmortem
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2014, 08:18:31 am »

Why was a 'Reorganization' option built into the code?

This is how distributed consensus via blockchain technology works.

Then why remove it?

Quote
In the future even 720-block window will be removed coz of 90% attack protection, so later we won't be able to enjoy such a show.

Or has the removal always been seen as the optimal situation, but just not technically possible yet?
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Come-from-Beyond

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Re: The Reorg: Postmortem
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2014, 08:27:37 am »

We can't remove it completely but 720 blocks will become ~10. It's only 10 minute frame for a reorg.
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nxtperceval

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Re: The Reorg: Postmortem
« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2014, 08:33:38 am »

We have survive.
We did the right decision.
We are stronger now.
We are better.

NXT will be the choosen one.
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LiQio

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Re: The Reorg: Postmortem
« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2014, 08:37:32 am »

Those were a couple of really interesting hours. Some conclusions:

Personal loss
more than 20k Nxt (I still expect to get it back btw)

bter
always liked the exchange, but they behaved bloody weird: why paying full amount upfront? why asking to cancel the reorg-attempts and not forging with 50mio on the fork? why no new messages for like 20 hours?

Community
community is key and community did great, lot's of opinions and discussions and most importantly everyone of us had a choice. The choice was provided by the core devs and I think this was the right way (so thanks for the overtime hours)

Come-from-Beyond:
the mysterious conductor as always - love it

Jacinto

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Re: The Reorg: Postmortem
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2014, 08:40:08 am »

We have survive.
We did the right decision. (doubtful)
We are stronger now.
We are better. (doubtful)

NXT will be the choosen one.

FTFY

Stronger? You must be kidding. We are much weaker than 2days ago. What if the hacker starts messing with his 46M stake?
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BCNext son.
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