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So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
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EvilDave

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2016, 10:56:35 am »


He's not working for free. He claimed the exclusive right to copy and sell the Nxt software under another license, while doing this he took our right to copy and sell it under another license, away. He's building valuable software for himself, for the most part, while we finance it, test it, promote it.

Bas and his Nxt Foundation, while funded by Nxt coinholders, is focused on selling this Nxt software to parties that want a private license, and the money from that will go to them.


That's the main business strategy here, very different from what benefits coinholders, which would be to find people that use the Nxt blockchain, not the Nxt software.

Sure they say they also do all this to give value to the Nxt blockchain, but talk is cheap, actions and results count, and the amount of users on our blockchain is not growing.

Howcome he is interested in scaling while we don't have the users to justify it? It looks to me he is primarily in the software business, not building our blockchain. 



Hold on a moment, Marc. The copyright for Nxt rests with the Nxt core devs, not only J-L.
Intellectual Property rights (IP) on stuff like software, music or books belongs to the creators, unless specified otherwise.
In Nxt's case, the IP is licensed to pretty much anyone who wants to use it under the Open Source GPL v2 license.
https://opensource.org/licenses/GPL-2.0

This licensing system means that Nxt is open to anyone to use, provided that a few conditions are met, the most important of which is to re-distribute any modified versions of the Nxt software under GPL as well, so that any derivatives from Nxt are also Open Source.
Therefore, f you take Nxt, change it and then re-distribute it under another license form.....that will be in violation of the original Nxt GPL license.

This means that J-L is not building Nxt for himself, but for anyone who will use it following the GPL license.
If businesses want to have their own version of NXT (and a lot do) as a closed source system, they will (on Nxt 1.x) have to come to a licensing agreement with the Nxt devs to do so. Except......under the proposed Nxt 2.0, a lot of the need for businesses to license Nxt will be reduced.

In any case, there is a consensus among everyone involved that revenues from licensing (if it ever happens) will go to the community, via the Nxt Foundation, and not, as you claim, into the pockets of myself, Damelon and the core devs.

The Nxt Foundation is not focused on selling licensing, Marc, that's a daft accusation.
We are here for the community, and for the overall development of Nxt.
What we are doing is focusing on getting projects on-board Nxt, and that will benefit everyone.

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Marc De Mesel

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2016, 10:57:43 am »

Let's say a business buys a relicensed NXT software from core devs.
How does this situation diminish us? How does it hurt NXT as a whole?

Right now such situation suggests that developers are being paid, thus are willing to do more work without asking for donations. So it should be a good thing for coin holders.
Unless it's a sponsorship to implement evil features. AFAI understand 2.0 is evil in your opinion. I like 80% of Jean-Luc's vision of 2.0, so it's net positive IMO.

It hurts Nxt because core devs are not incentivized to give value to the nxt coin.

They are incentivized to sell the software.

And so they focus on building great software that they can sell, but not giving value to the nxt coin.


remix

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2016, 11:03:21 am »

He's not working for free. He claimed the exclusive right to copy and sell the Nxt software under another license, while doing this he took our right to copy and sell it under another license, away.

Under the GPL anyone can copy or sell the Nxt code. The GPL is considered legally valid. The stakeholders don't get rights to the software (they can modify or sell it just like anyone else), but to do so you would need to invent a new type of experimental license, and it would be difficult to know how it would hold up in court. Just using the GPL is much simpler.

Yes, but who can sell the Nxt code under a different license then GPL, a private license?

Only them.

Right?

Yes.

Under the current legal system the software creators automatically get rights to it. By using the GPL they gave up some of their rights. I don't know if there is a legal option for them to prevent themselves from selling the Nxt code under a different license than GPL. The GPL, on the other hand, is well understood legally.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 11:23:20 am by remix »
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Damelon

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2016, 11:10:31 am »

Marc, you DO realise that Nxt 2.0 is exactly solving what you are accusing Jean Luc and us right now?

The Nxt 2.0 project is a way to SOLVE this and let the money flow to you, by not having to sell a private license.

You seem to have missed that part, and that is sad indeed.

Furthermore, on a personal note:

Bas and his Nxt Foundation, while funded by Nxt coinholders, is focused on selling this Nxt software to parties that want a private license, and the money from that will go to them.

Bas and his Foundation? How dare you, Marc? How dare you not mention this is an organisation made by Tai Zen, chanc3r, Dave and LocoMB and disregard ALL of our work?!
How DARE you suggest that the money would go straight into our pockets?!

You are framing us as something we are not and you are framing me specifically. The Foundation is NOT me, and it's been set up for the good of all Nxters.
We've done our damnest best and are continuing to do this.

Look at the TNNSE update thread for our direct work. We got people jobs, we are educating people, we are working on devs.
https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/%28tnnse%29-tennessee-updates/

"Selling licenses and pocketing the money" indeed.

You couldn't have be more insulting if you tried.


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Marc De Mesel

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2016, 11:13:00 am »


He's not working for free. He claimed the exclusive right to copy and sell the Nxt software under another license, while doing this he took our right to copy and sell it under another license, away. He's building valuable software for himself, for the most part, while we finance it, test it, promote it.

Bas and his Nxt Foundation, while funded by Nxt coinholders, is focused on selling this Nxt software to parties that want a private license, and the money from that will go to them.


That's the main business strategy here, very different from what benefits coinholders, which would be to find people that use the Nxt blockchain, not the Nxt software.

Sure they say they also do all this to give value to the Nxt blockchain, but talk is cheap, actions and results count, and the amount of users on our blockchain is not growing.

Howcome he is interested in scaling while we don't have the users to justify it? It looks to me he is primarily in the software business, not building our blockchain. 



Hold on a moment, Marc. The copyright for Nxt rests with the Nxt core devs, not only J-L.
Intellectual Property rights (IP) on stuff like software, music or books belongs to the creators, unless specified otherwise.
In Nxt's case, the IP is licensed to pretty much anyone who wants to use it under the Open Source GPL v2 license.
https://opensource.org/licenses/GPL-2.0

This licensing system means that Nxt is open to anyone to use, provided that a few conditions are met, the most important of which is to re-distribute any modified versions of the Nxt software under GPL as well, so that any derivatives from Nxt are also Open Source.
Therefore, f you take Nxt, change it and then re-distribute it under another license form.....that will be in violation of the original Nxt GPL license.

This means that J-L is not building Nxt for himself, but for anyone who will use it following the GPL license.
If businesses want to have their own version of NXT (and a lot do) as a closed source system, they will (on Nxt 1.x) have to come to a licensing agreement with the Nxt devs to do so. Except......under the proposed Nxt 2.0, a lot of the need for businesses to license Nxt will be reduced.

In any case, there is a consensus among everyone involved that revenues from licensing (if it ever happens) will go to the community, via the Nxt Foundation, and not, as you claim, into the pockets of myself, Damelon and the core devs.

The Nxt Foundation is not focused on selling licensing, Marc, that's a daft accusation.
We are here for the community, and for the overall development of Nxt.
What we are doing is focusing on getting projects on-board Nxt, and that will benefit everyone.

Dave, so coinholders will get maybe a cut, but more likely not and it will be invested in more people that work for Nxt foundation, or more developers, or more marketing, whatever you guys decide.

This is not ok.

This whole copyright thing is not ok.

With the MIT license we all had the right to copy and sell the Nxt software, also under private license, right?

Now, only you guys have it.

That's the source of the problem, that's how our rights have been violated and you guys took something that belonged to us as well.

Damelon

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2016, 11:16:46 am »

Dave, so coinholders will get maybe a cut, but more likely not and it will be invested in more people that work for Nxt foundation, or more developers, or more marketing, whatever you guys decide.

This is not ok.

This whole copyright thing is not ok.

With the MIT license we all had the right to copy and sell the Nxt software, with a private license, right?

Now, only you guys have it.

That's the source of the problem, that's how our rights have been violated and you guys took something that belonged to us as well.

You still have every right to sell the Nxt Software. The only thing the GPL v2 enforces is that it needs to be under GPL v2, too.

I've explained this before:

With MIT, anyone can close source the software and run with it. MIT allows people to just use it and run. Exactly what you are against.

*We* do not have anything else but you, if you mean Dave and I. The Foundation has no rights to the license, we do not have the copyright, and neither do you.

In fact, in no other project in crypto is this situation different.
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bcdev

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2016, 11:20:18 am »

With the MIT license we all had the right to copy and sell the Nxt software, also under private license, right?

The difference:
MIT: $100bil bank takes NXT software and hires a programmer to redeploy it. NXT core devs get $0, NXT community gets nothing.
GPL: $100bil bank asks the developers to relicense NXT software for $1mil and hires a programmer to redeploy it. NXT core devs get $1mil, NXT community get free core devs.

GPL is better from a business standpoint. IMO GPL is better also for coin holders.

Also, AFAIK jean-luc has quite a big stash of NXT, so he is personally interested in NXT value.
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Brangdon

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2016, 11:20:56 am »

Do you really think Nxt will be unable to find another quality program lead?
The real question is: Do you really think Nxt will be unable to find another quality program lead for free?
I'm sure there are at least 20 people on this forum that could replace Jean-Luc. How many of them are willing to work for free is a different story.

He's not working for free bcdev.
The point remains. If J-L were to leave and we had to replace him, we'd be offering no payment. We'd just be allowing them to keep the copyright on their own work, that would be hopelessly entangled with the rights of 12 other people (one of whom would be Jean-Luc, who might not be feeling cooperative). No decent programmer is going to accept those terms unless they really believed in Nxt for its own sake. I think you are massively underestimating how hard it would be to find such a person.
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Damelon

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2016, 11:23:51 am »

With the MIT license we all had the right to copy and sell the Nxt software, also under private license, right?

The difference:
MIT: $100bil bank takes NXT software and hires a programmer to redeploy it. NXT core devs get $0, NXT community gets nothing.
GPL: $100bil bank asks the developers to relicense NXT software for $1mil and hires a programmer to redeploy it. NXT core devs get $1mil, NXT community get free core devs.

GPL is better from a business standpoint. IMO GPL is better also for coin holders.

Also, AFAIK jean-luc has quite a big stash of NXT, so he is personally interested in NXT value.

I'd like to add:

Nxt 2.0: company wants to have their cake and sell it. Couldn't do that before, but can now. Onboards onto the system, adds all transactions to the main network, fees go to stakeholders.
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bcdev

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2016, 11:28:23 am »

The only criticism I have on 2.0 is: Make fNXT pegged to NXT.
Otherwise it's a pretty cool system, definitely worth implementing.
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farl4bit

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2016, 11:30:18 am »

With the MIT license we all had the right to copy and sell the Nxt software, also under private license, right?

The difference:
MIT: $100bil bank takes NXT software and hires a programmer to redeploy it. NXT core devs get $0, NXT community gets nothing.
GPL: $100bil bank asks the developers to relicense NXT software for $1mil and hires a programmer to redeploy it. NXT core devs get $1mil, NXT community get free core devs.

GPL is better from a business standpoint. IMO GPL is better also for coin holders.

Also, AFAIK jean-luc has quite a big stash of NXT, so he is personally interested in NXT value.

Nice example, maybe it's now more clear for Marc. Thx.  :)
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Damelon

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2016, 11:30:58 am »

The only criticism I have on 2.0 is: Make fNXT pegged to NXT.
Otherwise it's a pretty cool system, definitely worth implementing.

And that's what keeps getting conflated and causing confusion, which is infinitely regrettable.

If the systems were completely independent, we would not be having this conversation.
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remix

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2016, 11:33:27 am »

With the MIT license we all had the right to copy and sell the Nxt software, also under private license, right?

No, we (the stakeholders) didn't have the right to sell the software under our own license, even with MIT. And as has been said, anyone can change MIT code, even without publishing the code, so there is no reason for anyone to buy a license with MIT.
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Hachoir

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2016, 11:35:53 am »

No, nobody is afraid of anything and vote what they want even if it goes against you
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Marc De Mesel

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2016, 11:37:43 am »

Marc, you DO realise that Nxt 2.0 is exactly solving what you are accusing Jean Luc and us right now?

The Nxt 2.0 project is a way to SOLVE this and let the money flow to you, by not having to sell a private license.

You seem to have missed that part, and that is sad indeed.

Furthermore, on a personal note:

Bas and his Nxt Foundation, while funded by Nxt coinholders, is focused on selling this Nxt software to parties that want a private license, and the money from that will go to them.

Bas and his Foundation? How dare you, Marc? How dare you not mention this is an organisation made by Tai Zen, chanc3r, Dave and LocoMB and disregard ALL of our work?!
How DARE you suggest that the money would go straight into our pockets?!

You are framing us as something we are not and you are framing me specifically. The Foundation is NOT me, and it's been set up for the good of all Nxters.
We've done our damnest best and are continuing to do this.

Look at the TNNSE update thread for our direct work. We got people jobs, we are educating people, we are working on devs.
https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/%28tnnse%29-tennessee-updates/

"Selling licenses and pocketing the money" indeed.

You couldn't have be more insulting if you tried.


The legal reality is that the Nxt foundation is setup by you and a few other people, most of which have left for some reason. You have never been approved by the stakeholders to setup a foundation, nor do stakeholders have any say or ownership in it.

I have given you the benefit of the doubt for 2 years. But last we met on bitcoin Wednesday you did not show up on the place we had agreed to meet. When I arrived on the conference, you chased me away from a meeting you had in name of Nxt with some business man, failing to introduce me. Later you interrupted the interview I was doing with Riker, then when we were sitting together with some nxt'ers you said to us you would 'check (if it's time to go to the restaurant)' but never came back. We discovered an hour later everybody left the conference, including you and we had no idea where the restaurant was. Your phone, you did not pick up. When we finally found the restaurant you were not even aware you had abandoned us when we told you. Clearly you don't value me.


But I wouldn't bring all this up if the results were there, however all the work you (and I) have been doing for Nxt failed completely in gaining more users on our blockchain, or giving value to our coin.

That is why it's finished the way things have been going.

You have been by far the biggest receiver of donations from the Nxt community. Millions you have received the past 2 years. And it didn't work.

Something needs to change here.


« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 11:47:37 am by Marc De Mesel »
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bidji29

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2016, 11:39:57 am »

Marc, i know you care a lot about NXT, but i think you're getting a bit ahead of yourself by throwing accusation like that.
They are not founded, only based on assumption.

You're injecting toxicity into the current debate and in the end it will not help anyone.
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Marc De Mesel

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #36 on: April 02, 2016, 11:42:57 am »

Marc, i know you care a lot about NXT, but i think you're getting a bit ahead of yourself by throwing accusation like that.
They are not founded, only based on assumption.

You're injecting toxicity into the current debate and in the end it will not help anyone.

I'm pissed, and I have every right to be.

If I have my facts wrong, I will correct them.

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #37 on: April 02, 2016, 11:51:54 am »

Marc, you DO realise that Nxt 2.0 is exactly solving what you are accusing Jean Luc and us right now?

The Nxt 2.0 project is a way to SOLVE this and let the money flow to you, by not having to sell a private license.

You seem to have missed that part, and that is sad indeed.

Furthermore, on a personal note:

Bas and his Nxt Foundation, while funded by Nxt coinholders, is focused on selling this Nxt software to parties that want a private license, and the money from that will go to them.

Bas and his Foundation? How dare you, Marc? How dare you not mention this is an organisation made by Tai Zen, chanc3r, Dave and LocoMB and disregard ALL of our work?!
How DARE you suggest that the money would go straight into our pockets?!

You are framing us as something we are not and you are framing me specifically. The Foundation is NOT me, and it's been set up for the good of all Nxters.
We've done our damnest best and are continuing to do this.

Look at the TNNSE update thread for our direct work. We got people jobs, we are educating people, we are working on devs.
https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/%28tnnse%29-tennessee-updates/

"Selling licenses and pocketing the money" indeed.

You couldn't have be more insulting if you tried.

I have given you the benefit of the doubt for 2 years. But last we met on bitcoin Wednesday you did not show up on the place we had agreed to meet. When I arrived on the conference, you chased me away from a private meeting you had in name of Nxt with some business man, failing to introduce me. Later you interrupted the interview I was doing with Riker, then when we were sitting together with some nxt'ers you said to us you would 'check (if it's time to go to the restaurant)' but never came back. We discovered an hour later everybody left the conference, including you and we had no idea where the restaurant was. Your phone, you did not pick up. When we finally found the restaurant you were not even aware you had abandoned us when we told you. Clearly you don't value me.

Wtf, Marc!! I was there with you on Bitcoin Wednesday, together with Michiel, Testdruif, Riker and you. We were drinking in the bar and suddenly we noticed everone was gone. Damelon said later that he thought we already left to the restaurant. Why is this simple miscommunication relevant for this discussion? A bit childish if you ask me. You are not the center of everything here because you have a fat stake!! >:(

Damelon is working hard for Nxt and got a fundraising for that. He volunteerd that inniative for the sake of Nxt. Please, please respect that!

Start your own Nxt Foundation and try to it better.
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Damelon

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #38 on: April 02, 2016, 11:54:53 am »

The legal reality is that the Nxt foundation is setup by you and a few other people, most of which have left for some reason. You have never been approved by the stakeholders to setup a foundation, nor do stakeholders have any say or ownership in it.

I have given you the benefit of the doubt for 2 years. But last we met on bitcoin Wednesday you did not show up on the place we had agreed to meet. When I found you on the conference, you chased me away from a private meeting you had in name of Nxt with some business man, failing to introduce me. Later you interrupted the interview I was doing with Riker, then when we were sitting together with some nxt'ers you said to us you would 'check (if it's time to go to the restaurant)' but never came back. We discovered an hour later everybody left the conference, including you and we had no idea where the restaurant was. Your phone, you did not pick up. When we finally found the restaurant you were not even aware you had abandoned us when we told you. Clearly you don't value me.


But I wouldn't bring all this up if the results were there, however all the work you have been doing for Nxt failed completely in gaining more users on our blockchain, or giving value to our coin.

That is why it's finished the way things have been going.

You have been by far the biggest receiver of donations from the Nxt community. Millions you have received the past 2 years. And it didn't work.

Marc, I am sorry if you feel unappreciated, I do.

I also think you have completely the wrong idea about what the Foundation is, why it was set up and have a selective memory.

You can ask many people in the community what they think of us, and I doubt they will have bad experiences with us. Some will, but the majority doesn't.

You also do not seem to understand that for up to October last year, we were not funded AT ALL.

You are making a judgement over two years, of which 1,5 years were completely unfunded. No external funding at all, apart from the few nice whales who gave us their trust and continue to do so up till now.

When you showed up at the business meeting, I did introduce you as Marc de Mesel, but no, not as a business associate, for the simple reason that these talks had nothing to do with you. You are not a part of the Foundation and to be honest, you ALWAYS said you were against such an entity anyway. And then you want us to let you sit at the table? As what? You were not the one who was asked to do those talks.

When I showed up at the interview, you welcomed me. You could have just waved me away. I was just happy you guys were there.

I apologise once more for leaving you guys, but I was under the impression you would check the rest of the group. Dave and I were there organising an event!

My phone, as anyone at the meeting can attest was out of battery. I have even sat on the bloody toilet for 30 minutes to be able to charge it.

You are once again twisting facts, and I resent that!

We received 10 million 6 months ago. Those are the facts. We have been extremely careful with these funds. We will continue to be. I personally have cashed out only 600,000 of them. We even placed our salaries in an escrow with another party, so we couldn't run with them! Please explain to me how that is being irresponsible with MILLIONS.
Check the accounts yourself: https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/%28tnnse%29-accounts/

Marc, you are making this personal in a very ugly way.

You have crossed the line by spreading lies. I advise you not to let your anger get the best of you by misrepresenting facts about me or anyone else.
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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #39 on: April 02, 2016, 11:58:23 am »

But last we met on bitcoin Wednesday you did not show up on the place we had agreed to meet. When I arrived on the conference, you chased me away from a meeting you had in name of Nxt with some business man, failing to introduce me. Later you interrupted the interview I was doing with Riker, then when we were sitting together with some nxt'ers you said to us you would 'check (if it's time to go to the restaurant)' but never came back. We discovered an hour later everybody left the conference, including you and we had no idea where the restaurant was. Your phone, you did not pick up. When we finally found the restaurant you were not even aware you had abandoned us when we told you. Clearly you don't value me.
I'm unable to interpret this situation in any malicious way.
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