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Marc De Mesel

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I get the impression people are afraid to vote against Jean-Luc his 2.0 proposal as they fear if Jean-Luc leaves Nxt, which he has indeed threatened to do if his proposal is not approved, Nxt would be much worse off.

I challenge you to think more about this.


Do you really think Nxt will be unable to find another quality program lead?

Marc De Mesel

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2016, 08:51:48 am »

.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 09:00:51 am by Marc De Mesel »
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Sebastien256

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2016, 08:56:48 am »

I vote for 2.0 because I think it is a very nice and useful contribution to the field.
I don't understand why you don't want Nxt to be globally scalable by wanting people to vote against 2.0.
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Marc De Mesel

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2016, 09:02:03 am »

I vote for 2.0 because I think it is a very nice and useful contribution to the field.
I don't understand why you don't want Nxt to be globally scalable by wanting people to vote against 2.0.

For so many reasons.

Where do I start?

Do you think it's going well with Nxt?

Marc De Mesel

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2016, 09:05:01 am »

Is scaling Nxt going to solve our problems?

What's our problem?

Sebastien256

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2016, 09:36:33 am »

Scaling is a problem for all crypto. Having someone in Nxt dev team with a solution to this is great. I'm happy that a Nxt dev want to improve Nxt in that way.

Imo, a dev is free to do whatever it please him if he work for free, I won't blame a dev for that since the dev would owe nothing to anyone. It then to the community to accept or not the changes by the dev. So I see no reason at all to prevent JL to do the coding that he want to do, it not like what he is doing is bad.

Here a few problems:

- Nxt one problem in my opinion is that the devellopment is not completly open source and that prevent new devs from joining the team easily.
- I also think it would be ideal if JL would be publicly known. This would help to promote Nxt as he could participate lively, but I also understand the reason he do not want to.
- Funding is also a problem and this is why I agree with devlux preliminary proposition on a "pay on devlivery" system (I would need to see the whitepaper to be sure I agree with the complete concept tho). That would help Nxt devellopment for sure. To raise funding, I also think new feature could be sell in a ipo (https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/ipo-of-future-feature/).  Those two propositions are two way to get new funding without screwing the current Nxt holder, imo.

That is what comming to my mind at the moment.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 09:53:56 am by Sebastien256 »
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remix

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2016, 09:41:01 am »

How does Jean-Luc working on 2.0 prevent working on the other problems? The ones that I have seen mentioned, such as new clients, can be made by anyone.

Is the lack of alternative UIs the problem? We can have a competition for new clients with a prize for winner, or we can pay somebody to implement new clients. Somebody from the community can step up and start implementing. Useful would be discussion about what the clients should look like and do.
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Brangdon

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2016, 09:54:55 am »

I get the impression people are afraid to vote against Jean-Luc his 2.0 proposal as they fear if Jean-Luc leaves Nxt, which he has indeed threatened to do if his proposal is not approved, Nxt would be much worse off.
I certainly think we'd be worse off if Jean-Luc left. Whether he would leave, and whether the possibility should affect how people vote, are another matter. Technically, I think scalability is important and 2.0 looks a good way to improve it.

Quote
Do you really think Nxt will be unable to find another quality program lead?
That's a separate question. If you know of another quality programmer who can do crypto stuff, by all means hire them. They can work on other stuff while Jean-Luc does 2.0.

It's not like Jean-Luc leaving would free up resources that could be spent on someone else. As I understand it, he's not paid from community funds.
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Marc De Mesel

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2016, 09:55:16 am »

Scaling is a problem for all crypto. Having someone in Nxt dev team with a solution to this is great. I'm happy that a Nxt dev want to improve Nxt in that way.

Imo, a dev ishould be free to do whatever it please him if he work for free, I won't blame a dev for that since the dev would owe nothing to anyone. It then to the community to accept or not the changes by the dev. So I see no reason at all to prevent JL to do the coding that he want to do, it not like what he is doing is bad.

He's not working for free. He claimed the exclusive right to copy and sell the Nxt software under another license, while doing this he took our right to copy and sell it under another license, away. He's building valuable software for himself, for the most part, while we finance it, test it, promote it.

Bas and his Nxt Foundation, while funded by Nxt coinholders, is focused on selling this Nxt software to parties that want a private license, and the money from that will go to them.


That's the main business strategy here, very different from what benefits coinholders, which would be to find people that use the Nxt blockchain, not the Nxt software.

Sure they say they also do all this to give value to the Nxt blockchain, but talk is cheap, actions and results count, and the amount of users on our blockchain is not growing.

Howcome he is interested in scaling while we don't have the users to justify it? It looks to me he is primarily in the software business, not building our blockchain. 


Here a few problems:

- Nxt one problem in my opinion is that the devellopment is not completly open source and that prevent new devs from joining the team easily.

I wasn't aware of that, what parts are not open source?



- Funding is also a problem and this is why I agree with devlux preliminary proposition on a "pay on devlivery" system (I would need to see the whitepaper to be sure I agree with the complete concept tho). That would help Nxt devellopment for sure. To raise funding, I also think new feature could be sell in a ipo (https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/ipo-of-future-feature/).  Those two propositions are two way to get new funding without screwing the current Nxt holder, imo.

Good ideas indeed that I'm studying more.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 10:25:43 am by Marc De Mesel »
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Marc De Mesel

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2016, 10:04:50 am »

How does Jean-Luc working on 2.0 prevent working on the other problems? The ones that I have seen mentioned, such as new clients, can be made by anyone.

Because the decisions Jean-Luc makes chase away the users on our blockchain. People that build applications on top of it, people that issue assets, people that build websites, he changes the fees or the api's, and now even the properties of the currency, and with every update we lose users here, and win some others there, net result: no extra users, now for 2 years.

« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 10:08:13 am by Marc De Mesel »
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Sebastien256

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2016, 10:09:10 am »

Only the release code is open source, so any new devs have to work on the code version of the last release if he has no access to the private development branches. In Nxt, the code in devellopment are in private development branches. That is my understanding.

I advocate for a full public devellopment, and that would certainly help getting new devs more easilly.

Ps. for the license thing, are you not twisting fact a bit? All contributors the to the NXT code own the copyright of the server part only. But i agree it may have some truth in your statement. Would be great if core devs give rebutal to marc statement here or give further explanation.
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remix

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2016, 10:22:36 am »

He's not working for free. He claimed the exclusive right to copy and sell the Nxt software under another license, while doing this he took our right to copy and sell it under another license, away.

Under the GPL anyone can copy or sell the Nxt code. The GPL is considered legally valid. The stakeholders don't get rights to the software (they can modify or sell it just like anyone else), but to do so you would need to invent a new type of experimental license, and it would be difficult to know how it would hold up in court. Just using the GPL is much simpler.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 10:26:36 am by remix »
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bcdev

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2016, 10:25:34 am »

He's not working for free. He claimed the exclusive right to copy and sell the Nxt software under another license, while doing this he took our right to copy and sell it under another license, away. He's building valuable software for himself, for the most part, while we finance it, test it, promote it.
Not true.
Code: [Select]
4. Re-licensing.

[b]Re-licensing of the Nxt software under a different license requires the
agreement of all copyright holders whose work is being re-licensed.[/b] To
ensure that an unreachable copyright holder cannot prevent the active
development team from making licensing decisions, each copyright holder
who leaves the development team shall provide an Nxt account number in
the AUTHORS.txt file, at which he can be contacted to discuss such
decisions. Lack of such contact info, or lack of any type of response to
a re-licensing permission request after more than 28 days, as recorded
in the Nxt blockchain, shall be interpreted as an irrevocable permission
to the then active development team to perform the specific re-licensing
for which such a permission has been sought.

AUTHORS.txt lists 12 names. None of them can simply relicense NXT without agreement from other devs.
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bcdev

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2016, 10:34:20 am »

Do you really think Nxt will be unable to find another quality program lead?
The real question is: Do you really think Nxt will be unable to find another quality program lead for free?
I'm sure there are at least 20 people on this forum that could replace Jean-Luc. How many of them are willing to work for free is a different story.
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Marc De Mesel

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2016, 10:36:16 am »

He's not working for free. He claimed the exclusive right to copy and sell the Nxt software under another license, while doing this he took our right to copy and sell it under another license, away. He's building valuable software for himself, for the most part, while we finance it, test it, promote it.
Not true.
Code: [Select]
4. Re-licensing.

[b]Re-licensing of the Nxt software under a different license requires the
agreement of all copyright holders whose work is being re-licensed.[/b] To
ensure that an unreachable copyright holder cannot prevent the active
development team from making licensing decisions, each copyright holder
who leaves the development team shall provide an Nxt account number in
the AUTHORS.txt file, at which he can be contacted to discuss such
decisions. Lack of such contact info, or lack of any type of response to
a re-licensing permission request after more than 28 days, as recorded
in the Nxt blockchain, shall be interpreted as an irrevocable permission
to the then active development team to perform the specific re-licensing
for which such a permission has been sought.

AUTHORS.txt lists 12 names. None of them can simply relicense NXT without agreement from other devs.

Sure there are more copyright holders, and it is good to see approval is needed from all, but let's see how this would go.

So one of the companies they are currently talking to is ready and wants to pay a contract worth $100k of payments in return for a private license and some support.

So they contact the 12 copyright holders and propose a payment of $5k on average per person, some more, some less depending on how much copyright they hold. And $40k left for Bas to continue working on finding more clients.


You think they will disagree? Or say 'what about the coinholders'?

Also note that they have zero obligation to us coinholders to inform us about any dealing done or made, nor the amounts of money earned this way.


How could we have let this happen as coinholders? To be so completely cut out of the dealings and proceeds of the Nxt software?  :-[


« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 10:45:45 am by Marc De Mesel »
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Marc De Mesel

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2016, 10:37:02 am »

Do you really think Nxt will be unable to find another quality program lead?
The real question is: Do you really think Nxt will be unable to find another quality program lead for free?
I'm sure there are at least 20 people on this forum that could replace Jean-Luc. How many of them are willing to work for free is a different story.

He's not working for free bcdev.

Please, wake up.

Marc De Mesel

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2016, 10:40:49 am »

How does this situation diminish us, coinholders?
Do you know of any situation like that, or is it just speculation?

What do you mean?

You are aware Bas is currently negotiating with different companies about selling them a private license?

Damelon

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2016, 10:50:23 am »

How does this situation diminish us, coinholders?
Do you know of any situation like that, or is it just speculation?

What do you mean?

You are aware Bas is currently negotiating with different companies about selling them a private license?

This is wrong on so many levels I am preparing a more comprehensive post to rebut your accusations.

Sorry Marc, but this is so way off the mark I cannot just let it stand.
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bcdev

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2016, 10:50:52 am »

Let's say a business buys a relicensed NXT software from core devs.
How does this situation diminish us? How does it hurt NXT as a whole?

Right now such situation suggests that developers are being paid, thus are willing to do more work without asking for donations. So it should be a good thing for coin holders.
Unless it's a sponsorship to implement evil features. AFAI understand 2.0 is evil in your opinion. I like 80% of Jean-Luc's vision of 2.0, so it's net positive IMO.
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Marc De Mesel

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2016, 10:51:59 am »

He's not working for free. He claimed the exclusive right to copy and sell the Nxt software under another license, while doing this he took our right to copy and sell it under another license, away.

Under the GPL anyone can copy or sell the Nxt code. The GPL is considered legally valid. The stakeholders don't get rights to the software (they can modify or sell it just like anyone else), but to do so you would need to invent a new type of experimental license, and it would be difficult to know how it would hold up in court. Just using the GPL is much simpler.

Yes, but who can sell the Nxt code under a different license then GPL, a private license?

Only them.

Right?

EvilDave

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2016, 10:56:35 am »


He's not working for free. He claimed the exclusive right to copy and sell the Nxt software under another license, while doing this he took our right to copy and sell it under another license, away. He's building valuable software for himself, for the most part, while we finance it, test it, promote it.

Bas and his Nxt Foundation, while funded by Nxt coinholders, is focused on selling this Nxt software to parties that want a private license, and the money from that will go to them.


That's the main business strategy here, very different from what benefits coinholders, which would be to find people that use the Nxt blockchain, not the Nxt software.

Sure they say they also do all this to give value to the Nxt blockchain, but talk is cheap, actions and results count, and the amount of users on our blockchain is not growing.

Howcome he is interested in scaling while we don't have the users to justify it? It looks to me he is primarily in the software business, not building our blockchain. 



Hold on a moment, Marc. The copyright for Nxt rests with the Nxt core devs, not only J-L.
Intellectual Property rights (IP) on stuff like software, music or books belongs to the creators, unless specified otherwise.
In Nxt's case, the IP is licensed to pretty much anyone who wants to use it under the Open Source GPL v2 license.
https://opensource.org/licenses/GPL-2.0

This licensing system means that Nxt is open to anyone to use, provided that a few conditions are met, the most important of which is to re-distribute any modified versions of the Nxt software under GPL as well, so that any derivatives from Nxt are also Open Source.
Therefore, f you take Nxt, change it and then re-distribute it under another license form.....that will be in violation of the original Nxt GPL license.

This means that J-L is not building Nxt for himself, but for anyone who will use it following the GPL license.
If businesses want to have their own version of NXT (and a lot do) as a closed source system, they will (on Nxt 1.x) have to come to a licensing agreement with the Nxt devs to do so. Except......under the proposed Nxt 2.0, a lot of the need for businesses to license Nxt will be reduced.

In any case, there is a consensus among everyone involved that revenues from licensing (if it ever happens) will go to the community, via the Nxt Foundation, and not, as you claim, into the pockets of myself, Damelon and the core devs.

The Nxt Foundation is not focused on selling licensing, Marc, that's a daft accusation.
We are here for the community, and for the overall development of Nxt.
What we are doing is focusing on getting projects on-board Nxt, and that will benefit everyone.

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Marc De Mesel

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2016, 10:57:43 am »

Let's say a business buys a relicensed NXT software from core devs.
How does this situation diminish us? How does it hurt NXT as a whole?

Right now such situation suggests that developers are being paid, thus are willing to do more work without asking for donations. So it should be a good thing for coin holders.
Unless it's a sponsorship to implement evil features. AFAI understand 2.0 is evil in your opinion. I like 80% of Jean-Luc's vision of 2.0, so it's net positive IMO.

It hurts Nxt because core devs are not incentivized to give value to the nxt coin.

They are incentivized to sell the software.

And so they focus on building great software that they can sell, but not giving value to the nxt coin.


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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2016, 11:03:21 am »

He's not working for free. He claimed the exclusive right to copy and sell the Nxt software under another license, while doing this he took our right to copy and sell it under another license, away.

Under the GPL anyone can copy or sell the Nxt code. The GPL is considered legally valid. The stakeholders don't get rights to the software (they can modify or sell it just like anyone else), but to do so you would need to invent a new type of experimental license, and it would be difficult to know how it would hold up in court. Just using the GPL is much simpler.

Yes, but who can sell the Nxt code under a different license then GPL, a private license?

Only them.

Right?

Yes.

Under the current legal system the software creators automatically get rights to it. By using the GPL they gave up some of their rights. I don't know if there is a legal option for them to prevent themselves from selling the Nxt code under a different license than GPL. The GPL, on the other hand, is well understood legally.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 11:23:20 am by remix »
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Damelon

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2016, 11:10:31 am »

Marc, you DO realise that Nxt 2.0 is exactly solving what you are accusing Jean Luc and us right now?

The Nxt 2.0 project is a way to SOLVE this and let the money flow to you, by not having to sell a private license.

You seem to have missed that part, and that is sad indeed.

Furthermore, on a personal note:

Bas and his Nxt Foundation, while funded by Nxt coinholders, is focused on selling this Nxt software to parties that want a private license, and the money from that will go to them.

Bas and his Foundation? How dare you, Marc? How dare you not mention this is an organisation made by Tai Zen, chanc3r, Dave and LocoMB and disregard ALL of our work?!
How DARE you suggest that the money would go straight into our pockets?!

You are framing us as something we are not and you are framing me specifically. The Foundation is NOT me, and it's been set up for the good of all Nxters.
We've done our damnest best and are continuing to do this.

Look at the TNNSE update thread for our direct work. We got people jobs, we are educating people, we are working on devs.
https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/%28tnnse%29-tennessee-updates/

"Selling licenses and pocketing the money" indeed.

You couldn't have be more insulting if you tried.


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Marc De Mesel

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2016, 11:13:00 am »


He's not working for free. He claimed the exclusive right to copy and sell the Nxt software under another license, while doing this he took our right to copy and sell it under another license, away. He's building valuable software for himself, for the most part, while we finance it, test it, promote it.

Bas and his Nxt Foundation, while funded by Nxt coinholders, is focused on selling this Nxt software to parties that want a private license, and the money from that will go to them.


That's the main business strategy here, very different from what benefits coinholders, which would be to find people that use the Nxt blockchain, not the Nxt software.

Sure they say they also do all this to give value to the Nxt blockchain, but talk is cheap, actions and results count, and the amount of users on our blockchain is not growing.

Howcome he is interested in scaling while we don't have the users to justify it? It looks to me he is primarily in the software business, not building our blockchain. 



Hold on a moment, Marc. The copyright for Nxt rests with the Nxt core devs, not only J-L.
Intellectual Property rights (IP) on stuff like software, music or books belongs to the creators, unless specified otherwise.
In Nxt's case, the IP is licensed to pretty much anyone who wants to use it under the Open Source GPL v2 license.
https://opensource.org/licenses/GPL-2.0

This licensing system means that Nxt is open to anyone to use, provided that a few conditions are met, the most important of which is to re-distribute any modified versions of the Nxt software under GPL as well, so that any derivatives from Nxt are also Open Source.
Therefore, f you take Nxt, change it and then re-distribute it under another license form.....that will be in violation of the original Nxt GPL license.

This means that J-L is not building Nxt for himself, but for anyone who will use it following the GPL license.
If businesses want to have their own version of NXT (and a lot do) as a closed source system, they will (on Nxt 1.x) have to come to a licensing agreement with the Nxt devs to do so. Except......under the proposed Nxt 2.0, a lot of the need for businesses to license Nxt will be reduced.

In any case, there is a consensus among everyone involved that revenues from licensing (if it ever happens) will go to the community, via the Nxt Foundation, and not, as you claim, into the pockets of myself, Damelon and the core devs.

The Nxt Foundation is not focused on selling licensing, Marc, that's a daft accusation.
We are here for the community, and for the overall development of Nxt.
What we are doing is focusing on getting projects on-board Nxt, and that will benefit everyone.

Dave, so coinholders will get maybe a cut, but more likely not and it will be invested in more people that work for Nxt foundation, or more developers, or more marketing, whatever you guys decide.

This is not ok.

This whole copyright thing is not ok.

With the MIT license we all had the right to copy and sell the Nxt software, also under private license, right?

Now, only you guys have it.

That's the source of the problem, that's how our rights have been violated and you guys took something that belonged to us as well.

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2016, 11:16:46 am »

Dave, so coinholders will get maybe a cut, but more likely not and it will be invested in more people that work for Nxt foundation, or more developers, or more marketing, whatever you guys decide.

This is not ok.

This whole copyright thing is not ok.

With the MIT license we all had the right to copy and sell the Nxt software, with a private license, right?

Now, only you guys have it.

That's the source of the problem, that's how our rights have been violated and you guys took something that belonged to us as well.

You still have every right to sell the Nxt Software. The only thing the GPL v2 enforces is that it needs to be under GPL v2, too.

I've explained this before:

With MIT, anyone can close source the software and run with it. MIT allows people to just use it and run. Exactly what you are against.

*We* do not have anything else but you, if you mean Dave and I. The Foundation has no rights to the license, we do not have the copyright, and neither do you.

In fact, in no other project in crypto is this situation different.
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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2016, 11:20:18 am »

With the MIT license we all had the right to copy and sell the Nxt software, also under private license, right?

The difference:
MIT: $100bil bank takes NXT software and hires a programmer to redeploy it. NXT core devs get $0, NXT community gets nothing.
GPL: $100bil bank asks the developers to relicense NXT software for $1mil and hires a programmer to redeploy it. NXT core devs get $1mil, NXT community get free core devs.

GPL is better from a business standpoint. IMO GPL is better also for coin holders.

Also, AFAIK jean-luc has quite a big stash of NXT, so he is personally interested in NXT value.
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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2016, 11:20:56 am »

Do you really think Nxt will be unable to find another quality program lead?
The real question is: Do you really think Nxt will be unable to find another quality program lead for free?
I'm sure there are at least 20 people on this forum that could replace Jean-Luc. How many of them are willing to work for free is a different story.

He's not working for free bcdev.
The point remains. If J-L were to leave and we had to replace him, we'd be offering no payment. We'd just be allowing them to keep the copyright on their own work, that would be hopelessly entangled with the rights of 12 other people (one of whom would be Jean-Luc, who might not be feeling cooperative). No decent programmer is going to accept those terms unless they really believed in Nxt for its own sake. I think you are massively underestimating how hard it would be to find such a person.
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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2016, 11:23:51 am »

With the MIT license we all had the right to copy and sell the Nxt software, also under private license, right?

The difference:
MIT: $100bil bank takes NXT software and hires a programmer to redeploy it. NXT core devs get $0, NXT community gets nothing.
GPL: $100bil bank asks the developers to relicense NXT software for $1mil and hires a programmer to redeploy it. NXT core devs get $1mil, NXT community get free core devs.

GPL is better from a business standpoint. IMO GPL is better also for coin holders.

Also, AFAIK jean-luc has quite a big stash of NXT, so he is personally interested in NXT value.

I'd like to add:

Nxt 2.0: company wants to have their cake and sell it. Couldn't do that before, but can now. Onboards onto the system, adds all transactions to the main network, fees go to stakeholders.
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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2016, 11:28:23 am »

The only criticism I have on 2.0 is: Make fNXT pegged to NXT.
Otherwise it's a pretty cool system, definitely worth implementing.
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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2016, 11:30:18 am »

With the MIT license we all had the right to copy and sell the Nxt software, also under private license, right?

The difference:
MIT: $100bil bank takes NXT software and hires a programmer to redeploy it. NXT core devs get $0, NXT community gets nothing.
GPL: $100bil bank asks the developers to relicense NXT software for $1mil and hires a programmer to redeploy it. NXT core devs get $1mil, NXT community get free core devs.

GPL is better from a business standpoint. IMO GPL is better also for coin holders.

Also, AFAIK jean-luc has quite a big stash of NXT, so he is personally interested in NXT value.

Nice example, maybe it's now more clear for Marc. Thx.  :)
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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2016, 11:30:58 am »

The only criticism I have on 2.0 is: Make fNXT pegged to NXT.
Otherwise it's a pretty cool system, definitely worth implementing.

And that's what keeps getting conflated and causing confusion, which is infinitely regrettable.

If the systems were completely independent, we would not be having this conversation.
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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2016, 11:33:27 am »

With the MIT license we all had the right to copy and sell the Nxt software, also under private license, right?

No, we (the stakeholders) didn't have the right to sell the software under our own license, even with MIT. And as has been said, anyone can change MIT code, even without publishing the code, so there is no reason for anyone to buy a license with MIT.
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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2016, 11:35:53 am »

No, nobody is afraid of anything and vote what they want even if it goes against you
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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2016, 11:37:43 am »

Marc, you DO realise that Nxt 2.0 is exactly solving what you are accusing Jean Luc and us right now?

The Nxt 2.0 project is a way to SOLVE this and let the money flow to you, by not having to sell a private license.

You seem to have missed that part, and that is sad indeed.

Furthermore, on a personal note:

Bas and his Nxt Foundation, while funded by Nxt coinholders, is focused on selling this Nxt software to parties that want a private license, and the money from that will go to them.

Bas and his Foundation? How dare you, Marc? How dare you not mention this is an organisation made by Tai Zen, chanc3r, Dave and LocoMB and disregard ALL of our work?!
How DARE you suggest that the money would go straight into our pockets?!

You are framing us as something we are not and you are framing me specifically. The Foundation is NOT me, and it's been set up for the good of all Nxters.
We've done our damnest best and are continuing to do this.

Look at the TNNSE update thread for our direct work. We got people jobs, we are educating people, we are working on devs.
https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/%28tnnse%29-tennessee-updates/

"Selling licenses and pocketing the money" indeed.

You couldn't have be more insulting if you tried.


The legal reality is that the Nxt foundation is setup by you and a few other people, most of which have left for some reason. You have never been approved by the stakeholders to setup a foundation, nor do stakeholders have any say or ownership in it.

I have given you the benefit of the doubt for 2 years. But last we met on bitcoin Wednesday you did not show up on the place we had agreed to meet. When I arrived on the conference, you chased me away from a meeting you had in name of Nxt with some business man, failing to introduce me. Later you interrupted the interview I was doing with Riker, then when we were sitting together with some nxt'ers you said to us you would 'check (if it's time to go to the restaurant)' but never came back. We discovered an hour later everybody left the conference, including you and we had no idea where the restaurant was. Your phone, you did not pick up. When we finally found the restaurant you were not even aware you had abandoned us when we told you. Clearly you don't value me.


But I wouldn't bring all this up if the results were there, however all the work you (and I) have been doing for Nxt failed completely in gaining more users on our blockchain, or giving value to our coin.

That is why it's finished the way things have been going.

You have been by far the biggest receiver of donations from the Nxt community. Millions you have received the past 2 years. And it didn't work.

Something needs to change here.


« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 11:47:37 am by Marc De Mesel »
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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2016, 11:39:57 am »

Marc, i know you care a lot about NXT, but i think you're getting a bit ahead of yourself by throwing accusation like that.
They are not founded, only based on assumption.

You're injecting toxicity into the current debate and in the end it will not help anyone.
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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #36 on: April 02, 2016, 11:42:57 am »

Marc, i know you care a lot about NXT, but i think you're getting a bit ahead of yourself by throwing accusation like that.
They are not founded, only based on assumption.

You're injecting toxicity into the current debate and in the end it will not help anyone.

I'm pissed, and I have every right to be.

If I have my facts wrong, I will correct them.

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #37 on: April 02, 2016, 11:51:54 am »

Marc, you DO realise that Nxt 2.0 is exactly solving what you are accusing Jean Luc and us right now?

The Nxt 2.0 project is a way to SOLVE this and let the money flow to you, by not having to sell a private license.

You seem to have missed that part, and that is sad indeed.

Furthermore, on a personal note:

Bas and his Nxt Foundation, while funded by Nxt coinholders, is focused on selling this Nxt software to parties that want a private license, and the money from that will go to them.

Bas and his Foundation? How dare you, Marc? How dare you not mention this is an organisation made by Tai Zen, chanc3r, Dave and LocoMB and disregard ALL of our work?!
How DARE you suggest that the money would go straight into our pockets?!

You are framing us as something we are not and you are framing me specifically. The Foundation is NOT me, and it's been set up for the good of all Nxters.
We've done our damnest best and are continuing to do this.

Look at the TNNSE update thread for our direct work. We got people jobs, we are educating people, we are working on devs.
https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/%28tnnse%29-tennessee-updates/

"Selling licenses and pocketing the money" indeed.

You couldn't have be more insulting if you tried.

I have given you the benefit of the doubt for 2 years. But last we met on bitcoin Wednesday you did not show up on the place we had agreed to meet. When I arrived on the conference, you chased me away from a private meeting you had in name of Nxt with some business man, failing to introduce me. Later you interrupted the interview I was doing with Riker, then when we were sitting together with some nxt'ers you said to us you would 'check (if it's time to go to the restaurant)' but never came back. We discovered an hour later everybody left the conference, including you and we had no idea where the restaurant was. Your phone, you did not pick up. When we finally found the restaurant you were not even aware you had abandoned us when we told you. Clearly you don't value me.

Wtf, Marc!! I was there with you on Bitcoin Wednesday, together with Michiel, Testdruif, Riker and you. We were drinking in the bar and suddenly we noticed everone was gone. Damelon said later that he thought we already left to the restaurant. Why is this simple miscommunication relevant for this discussion? A bit childish if you ask me. You are not the center of everything here because you have a fat stake!! >:(

Damelon is working hard for Nxt and got a fundraising for that. He volunteerd that inniative for the sake of Nxt. Please, please respect that!

Start your own Nxt Foundation and try to it better.
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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #38 on: April 02, 2016, 11:54:53 am »

The legal reality is that the Nxt foundation is setup by you and a few other people, most of which have left for some reason. You have never been approved by the stakeholders to setup a foundation, nor do stakeholders have any say or ownership in it.

I have given you the benefit of the doubt for 2 years. But last we met on bitcoin Wednesday you did not show up on the place we had agreed to meet. When I found you on the conference, you chased me away from a private meeting you had in name of Nxt with some business man, failing to introduce me. Later you interrupted the interview I was doing with Riker, then when we were sitting together with some nxt'ers you said to us you would 'check (if it's time to go to the restaurant)' but never came back. We discovered an hour later everybody left the conference, including you and we had no idea where the restaurant was. Your phone, you did not pick up. When we finally found the restaurant you were not even aware you had abandoned us when we told you. Clearly you don't value me.


But I wouldn't bring all this up if the results were there, however all the work you have been doing for Nxt failed completely in gaining more users on our blockchain, or giving value to our coin.

That is why it's finished the way things have been going.

You have been by far the biggest receiver of donations from the Nxt community. Millions you have received the past 2 years. And it didn't work.

Marc, I am sorry if you feel unappreciated, I do.

I also think you have completely the wrong idea about what the Foundation is, why it was set up and have a selective memory.

You can ask many people in the community what they think of us, and I doubt they will have bad experiences with us. Some will, but the majority doesn't.

You also do not seem to understand that for up to October last year, we were not funded AT ALL.

You are making a judgement over two years, of which 1,5 years were completely unfunded. No external funding at all, apart from the few nice whales who gave us their trust and continue to do so up till now.

When you showed up at the business meeting, I did introduce you as Marc de Mesel, but no, not as a business associate, for the simple reason that these talks had nothing to do with you. You are not a part of the Foundation and to be honest, you ALWAYS said you were against such an entity anyway. And then you want us to let you sit at the table? As what? You were not the one who was asked to do those talks.

When I showed up at the interview, you welcomed me. You could have just waved me away. I was just happy you guys were there.

I apologise once more for leaving you guys, but I was under the impression you would check the rest of the group. Dave and I were there organising an event!

My phone, as anyone at the meeting can attest was out of battery. I have even sat on the bloody toilet for 30 minutes to be able to charge it.

You are once again twisting facts, and I resent that!

We received 10 million 6 months ago. Those are the facts. We have been extremely careful with these funds. We will continue to be. I personally have cashed out only 600,000 of them. We even placed our salaries in an escrow with another party, so we couldn't run with them! Please explain to me how that is being irresponsible with MILLIONS.
Check the accounts yourself: https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/%28tnnse%29-accounts/

Marc, you are making this personal in a very ugly way.

You have crossed the line by spreading lies. I advise you not to let your anger get the best of you by misrepresenting facts about me or anyone else.
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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #39 on: April 02, 2016, 11:58:23 am »

But last we met on bitcoin Wednesday you did not show up on the place we had agreed to meet. When I arrived on the conference, you chased me away from a meeting you had in name of Nxt with some business man, failing to introduce me. Later you interrupted the interview I was doing with Riker, then when we were sitting together with some nxt'ers you said to us you would 'check (if it's time to go to the restaurant)' but never came back. We discovered an hour later everybody left the conference, including you and we had no idea where the restaurant was. Your phone, you did not pick up. When we finally found the restaurant you were not even aware you had abandoned us when we told you. Clearly you don't value me.
I'm unable to interpret this situation in any malicious way.
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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #40 on: April 02, 2016, 11:59:56 am »

Please guys chill off a bit....you all are valuable to our community.
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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #41 on: April 02, 2016, 01:29:45 pm »

Few points:
1. The accusation of Bas about mistreating us during the Bitcoin Wednesday meetup is completely out of place. Sure there was some misunderstanding regarding the restaurant but I can personally testify that Bas performed beautifully under immense pressure during this day.

2. Replacing jean-luc, are you real ? There is not a single person on this community including myself which can replace him even for 1M$/Year.

3. Regarding private blockchain solution, I can confirm that there is demand for such product. If NXT does not deliver it, rest assured ETH, BTS, NEM and others will.
As far as I can tell the ETH Azure template effectively spawns a new blockchain, I didn't see how this hurts the ETH value.
The value of NEM jumped 1200% since they announced a single partnership with a single Japanese bank.
My prediction is that if such a deal is ever announced, the value of the public chain will jump 3 fold the same day.
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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #42 on: April 02, 2016, 01:51:37 pm »

Do you really think Nxt will be unable to find another quality program lead?

yes.

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #43 on: April 02, 2016, 02:35:29 pm »

Marc, we all are aware of the many things you've done to give Nxt exposure and to contribute to the community, and you know everyone appreciates them a lot. But as a personal note, reading this topic made me feel awkward. It is normal that the current uncertainty about some crucial issues puts pressure on everyone, and makes patience grow thin, but for a few moments I think you flipped out here.

As in every community there's been good and not so good decisions, and if you remember the Starfish paradigm, there's been the need to have catalysts to bridge with the outside. Among several initiatives, the Nxt Foundation and TNSSE project managed to get the biggest support for several reasons, and this is a fact. I cannot really see many questioning it now.

Now, reality check: the game has changed. The market position of Nxt is clearly below expectations and that makes things more difficult. Speculating about why it happened (bear market, massive cash flow out due to assets, trends and platforms seen as competition, community conflicts and reorgs, etc) is inevitable but often not constructive. Let us please focus on the current scenario.

The asset ecosystem remains a big Nxt feature, extremely usable, but initiatives pushed by james and coinomat are bringing specific developments for that (Iguana, Waves). We're seeing other platforms aim for other 2.0 grails like smart contracts (ETH), micropayments and IoT (IOTA), marketplace (SYS), dapps (LISK), anonymity (cryptonote forks), etc.

Right now the ace up Nxt sleeve seems a huge potential for development -of course providing core developers do their best to give stability to third parties- and specially the custom-blockchain-in-a-box magic trick, which is pretty unique. And all the TNSSE work I've seen is well aware of this. The long term goals of core dev team also seem well aware of this.

Whether this is so because the core devs moved one way, or the core devs moved one way because this is so, it's a chicken and egg question.

But regardless of important issues that need to be clarified (terms of Nxt 2.0 fork, funding) questioning both the direction Nxt development and the Nxt foundation are heading seems out of touch with reality. At least I cannot see an alternate reality that makes sense.
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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #44 on: April 02, 2016, 02:50:30 pm »

If you guys (devs) sell private licences, it is only you selling your IP rights, it is not going to hurt NXT. Do it if you can !

Will you be less interested in NXT ? Why would you ?

Your position in the NXT community would be your "unique selling proposition" that would be responsible of the business you generate! You wouldn't want to lose that!

So it won't hurt at all, like it won't hurt at all that you sell your knowledge/expertise in any other way. The only thing it changes is that it may, at first, reduces the time you devote exclusively to NXT. So speed of pure NXT development could be reduced. But considering what has been done without proper funding, I can not believe that all the side effects of being involved in related activities can not compensate. At worth other devs would pop up. Anyway, quantity of pure NXT development is not a guarantee that the stakes are gaining more value.

So Do it! Be free ! Sell you IP & talent. That's the beauty of what has been done here from the start. Let's not over engineer. No master !

JL is wise to stay anonymous until he represents some single point of failure and/or if he believe there is any risk of not doing so. Let's not underestimate the financial threat that NXT represents to the crypto mining industry. It is a blasphemy. But I'd hope that humanity has enough ressources for great ideas not to die if one of the best element stops to contribute. Satochi & BCNext disappeared and what they created remained.. still it may be luck, lets not underestimate the ressource out-there.

I'm not afraid of JL because he is clever.
But it seems he is human too, he may even be a she  :) So lets remain diplomate in every circonstances.

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #45 on: April 02, 2016, 03:30:59 pm »

Thanks for your reactions guys, I have to let it sink in a bit.

I appreciate you took the time to give your opinion where you think I'm wrong.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 03:35:13 pm by Marc De Mesel »
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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #46 on: April 02, 2016, 04:16:45 pm »

Thanks for your reactions guys, I have to let it sink in a bit.

I appreciate you took the time to give your opinion where you think I'm wrong.

Thanks for your nice reaction. Please do not underestimate the work Jean Luc is doing for Nxt. Even in a decentralized nature, there happen hick-ups in the network, hardcoded nodes, the code itself, bugs and a lot of stuff needs to be maintained. We can be lucky to have someone here with experience in this work, there are not many people around. And then doing it mostly for free just to take care of the network (well, I am sure Jean Luc has some NXT he can sell but never took a wage).

I am sure Jean-Luc would not offend if he got more help from more developers that can work on some tasks, so he can concentrate more on the things he likes most (if it's coding or network analysis). I would say instead of going against Jean-Luc, let us improve on the things we have and not think about getting rid of old structures, rather improve on them and hire (or attract) more developers.

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #47 on: April 02, 2016, 05:21:24 pm »

Thanks for your reactions guys, I have to let it sink in a bit.

I appreciate you took the time to give your opinion where you think I'm wrong.
Take it easy with the drinks in the future Marc.
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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #48 on: April 02, 2016, 05:40:47 pm »

How does Jean-Luc working on 2.0 prevent working on the other problems? The ones that I have seen mentioned, such as new clients, can be made by anyone.

Is the lack of alternative UIs the problem? We can have a competition for new clients with a prize for winner, or we can pay somebody to implement new clients. Somebody from the community can step up and start implementing. Useful would be discussion about what the clients should look like and do.

Hell, you tell me what you want to see, acquire funding to do it and I'll step up to the plate and bring in some other folks to work on it too!
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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #49 on: April 02, 2016, 05:45:47 pm »

Only the release code is open source, so any new devs have to work on the code version of the last release if he has no access to the private development branches. In Nxt, the code in devellopment are in private development branches. That is my understanding.

I advocate for a full public devellopment, and that would certainly help getting new devs more easilly.

Sabastien, there is literally no way to accomplish this.  The design of git is decentralized meaning that everyone works in a private local branch and then pushes the change deltas to a public branch.  This change set is then pulled and merged into the existing branch on the public repo.

If everyone published every brain fart they had the main branch would be a mess.  However control of the main repo should in fact change.  I have a proposal to move NXT to self hosting model where the main repo is hosted in the blockchain or data cloud and the community votes on pull requests into it.

White paper coming soon, just need to do some more revisions.
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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #50 on: April 02, 2016, 06:28:17 pm »

3 things are of concern to me here.

#1 Jean Luc leaving if the community took a no vote on 2.0.
Personally I don't see where he has ever made that threat.  He HAS said that without an ICO then there won't be funds to continue development and NXT could be in the same situation as bitcoin where a company comes in like blockstream who's business model does not reflect the better interests of the coin holders.
This is an absolutely legitimate concern.

I agree we need a 2.0 but it needs to have a longterm plan in place with clear goals, it needs to not break existing shit, it needs to not dilute existing stakeholder value and I don't think we need an ICO or a coin split to do it.  There are alternatives.  Alternatives which would compensate devs for the work they do while allowing the community to accept or reject changes to core.

#2 Relicensing the software.
I write code for a living, this impacts me.  If you don't write code for a living this has no impact on you. 
Before anyone gets their panties in a knot over this, let me explain what GPL is.
I've been releasing my code under the GPL since Junior High.
The GPL is licensing, not copyright.  Licensing and copyright are two completely separate ballgames.
Copyright belongs defacto to the person who wrote it or the person or company who paid to have it wrote.

The GPL is a specific license that allows you to not only see the source code of the application you're running, but also copy it, modify it, change it, even repackage and sell it as your own.  As long as you acknowledge that the original source is under the GPL and all changes you make to the code are GPL licensed code and that those changes are published. 

This makes it viral and prevents company A from claiming person B's work as their own while still allowing company A to use it without asking for specific consent.

The MIT license is similar in most regards, but the move to GPL from MIT made it harder to sell private copies because the MIT license is not viral, changes do not have to be published.

Here is the truth.  If I want to fork NXT, swap out the default UI with my very own custom souped up UI and sell it, I can still absolutely do that.
I can even call it Devlux NXT!  Although personally I like Evolution NXT :)
I know it sounds astonishing, but it's the truth.
RedHat made $2 Billion USD last year doing exactly that.
Whats loads of fun, is that this also allows anyone to take RedHat's changes, strip the branding off and sell it or give it away as their own product. 
Behold CentOS.
Zend does it with PHP and I think you'll find that it's the norm, not the exception.

However, if I want to do that without releasing my changes, then I have to pay the developers a licensing fee.
This is par for the course and a valuable revenue stream in nearly all open source projects of note.
This is exactly  how "community" vs "enterprise" versions come to be.  There is nothing wrong with it guys.  Any developer who wants to  can make their own choice whether or not this is something they want.  But frankly, I don't know any developer who would care or even think twice.  In fact any developer in their right mind would support this.  If they become key to development even if they aren't compensated by the company directly, there is a very good chance that lucrative consulting gigs will follow.  That's how I got my start as a professional freelance developer, eventually working my way to Systems Architect for shit you've never heard of, but does really important stuff like ensuring you don't buy spoiled milk or orange juice.

The danger of course is when the enterprise version becomes the only version and the community is effectively locked out of getting upgrades unless they pay a license fee.  This is what I think Marc is objecting to.  If it's not, then it is what he should be objecting to.  That hasn't happened yet though and it doesn't have to happen.  If it did happen it could happen tomorrow or 10 years from tomorrow, the stakeholders would not have the final say.  This also is what I believe Marc is really objecting to.  So the answer here is to extract an enforcable agreement that no matter what, the community will define what is and is not the NXT coin.  No breaking changes go into enterprise that would force everyone to upgrade and pay a license fee.

#3  You all have meetups?  Without me?
Seriously guys, where and when is this going on?  Any chance of coming to Cancun for it?  :)
 
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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #51 on: April 02, 2016, 07:47:39 pm »

Ummm.....if you really insist, devlux, we'll come to Cancun.  :D
Or you could come to boring, not very sunny Amsterdam:
http://www.bitcoinwednesday.com/event/bitcoin-wednesday-34/

Much +1 on the post below. This is a core point about decentralised, open source projects: if you don't like how things are going, or if you think you can do better, or do something new.....step up to the plate and do it. No-one can stop you.
There are a zillion things (i may exaggerate slightly  :D ) that Nxt can be used for, and plenty of ways that Nxt can be promoted or marketed that haven't yet been tried, so there is no shortage of opportunities. There's a whole world out there, waiting to be assimilated...... ;)

How does Jean-Luc working on 2.0 prevent working on the other problems? The ones that I have seen mentioned, such as new clients, can be made by anyone.

Is the lack of alternative UIs the problem? We can have a competition for new clients with a prize for winner, or we can pay somebody to implement new clients. Somebody from the community can step up and start implementing. Useful would be discussion about what the clients should look like and do.

Hell, you tell me what you want to see, acquire funding to do it and I'll step up to the plate and bring in some other folks to work on it too!
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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #52 on: April 02, 2016, 08:44:16 pm »

  I have a proposal to move NXT to self hosting model where the main repo is hosted in the blockchain or data cloud and the community votes on pull requests into it.

White paper coming soon, just need to do some more revisions.

That sound interesting!
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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #53 on: April 03, 2016, 03:33:29 am »

Thanks for your reactions guys, I have to let it sink in a bit.

I appreciate you took the time to give your opinion where you think I'm wrong.

You've got a lot of skin in the game Marc! I'm worried & stressed too that the crypto world (and markets) seem to ignore how amazing NXT could be, and I'm just an anonymous minnow, but you're a very public 'whale'. I can imagine the last 12-18 months has been very difficult for you. I really appreciate your passion and honesty in this debate, even when I disagree with you, which isn't that much. Good on you for holding fire while you take stock and think things over. We need you!!

The current issues are complex, but at the end of the day the NXT community is extremely lucky to have Jean-Luc and Riker at the helm, working for nothing (or is it peanuts?). I think they would be impossible to replace given the past & present situation we find ourselves in as a community with little funding options.  Thanks J-L and Riker (and other guys I know less about)
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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #54 on: April 03, 2016, 06:51:44 am »

Marc, we have to deal with the fact that the crypto world is converting from the biggest speculation event probably ever (Bitcoin) up to Mt. Gox to less speculative world, as the blockchain is no more only the currency but the technology around it.
Play with Google trends a bit: https://www.google.com/trends/
Look at ethereum, besides the amazing hype, it's what, 5/10 times its initial price? Volumes have gone down now and price will also go down as I doubt that the business model there is to make money out of the value of the coin itself.
And as that happens, the vision of JL and the other core devs for nxt, as far as I understood, is to build a financial toolkit so that someone that wants to use the toolkit for making a business and profit with it can do that for free (almost) by building their own child chain.
I can understand your frustration to see the value of NXT in terms of value of the coin, but that JL&co vision is very exciting and can be revolutionary as it could grow (theoretically) forever!
And who know... Probably also the nxt coin will gain in value as a consequence of the successful implementation of that idea.
I think we should all be kissing the a** of JL, Riker & co...
My morning thoughts...
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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #55 on: April 03, 2016, 11:44:36 am »

Only the release code is open source, so any new devs have to work on the code version of the last release if he has no access to the private development branches. In Nxt, the code in devellopment are in private development branches. That is my understanding.

I advocate for a full public devellopment, and that would certainly help getting new devs more easilly.

Sabastien, there is literally no way to accomplish this.  The design of git is decentralized meaning that everyone works in a private local branch and then pushes the change deltas to a public branch.  This change set is then pulled and merged into the existing branch on the public repo.

If everyone published every brain fart they had the main branch would be a mess.  However control of the main repo should in fact change.  I have a proposal to move NXT to self hosting model where the main repo is hosted in the blockchain or data cloud and the community votes on pull requests into it.

White paper coming soon, just need to do some more revisions.
At the moment the public repository is updated several times a year. There's no technical reason it couldn't be updated several times a day. I'm a programmer, my employer uses Git, and that's what we do. I don't understand your point about the the main branch getting messy. It already gets messy. If you look at https://bitbucket.org/JeanLucPicard/nxt/commits/, you can see the daily commits in all their dubious glory. They already get published. They just don't get published until the release is final.

As I understand it the reason Nxt doesn't publish daily is not technical. It's because of fear of clones. If they pull the source of half-completed features that haven't even appeared on TestNet yet, then two things could happen. The first is that they could get a jump on us and release a feature in their clone before we've got it onto MainNet. The second is that their version of the feature might not work, because it's half-baked and hasn't been tested on TestNet yet, and that could lead to huge screw-ups that might give the feature a bad reputation which would reflect back on Nxt.

Whether those are real problems I can't say. I also can't say whether not releasing half-baked source is a real problem. If someone wants to see the 1.8 source, they have to ask permission, but is it that hard to get permission? How often is it that someone seriously wants to put the work into developing Nxt, but isn't prepared to jump through whatever hoops are needed to get the latest source? And if someone outside the core devs does base a new feature on old published source, how much more effort is it to merge it back onto the latest private source? I suspect these issues are academic in practice.
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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #56 on: April 03, 2016, 11:50:24 am »

If someone wants to see the 1.8 source, they have to ask permission
The source is actually included in the 1.8.0e zip file.
Although that is usually not the case, so I'm not sure if this was a change in policy or a mistake.
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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #57 on: April 03, 2016, 12:29:12 pm »

If someone wants to see the 1.8 source, they have to ask permission
The source is actually included in the 1.8.0e zip file.
Although that is usually not the case, so I'm not sure if this was a change in policy or a mistake.

In the past we always obfuscated the class file of the 'e' releases and did not provide the source code.
This was mainly done to give us a head start on clones, but the obfuscation itself adds complexity to the build and if not tested carefully can break the runtime.
This time we decided the risk of clones is minimal so we did not obfuscate and released the source code with 1.8.0e.

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #58 on: April 03, 2016, 12:37:10 pm »

If someone wants to see the 1.8 source, they have to ask permission, but is it that hard to get permission?

Not at all, if you implement one or two features using the previous version of the source on bitbucket and we see that you are reliable contributor we'll give you permission.

Quote
And if someone outside the core devs does base a new feature on old published source, how much more effort is it to merge it back onto the latest private source?

In most cases it's not difficult.

Quote
I suspect these issues are academic in practice.

That's also my view.
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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #59 on: April 04, 2016, 09:20:11 am »

Few points:
 
2. Replacing jean-luc, are you real ? There is not a single person on this community including myself which can replace him even for 1M$/Year.
 

Apart from everything else, there seems to me to be a general issue: 
The difference between a 'company' as in run by a small group of people and a protocol as Bitcoin, where boatloads of developers are working on the specifications of the protocol.

Bitcoin may have forks, as we see with core vs. classic, or the past XT vs. regular, but NXT has clones.
I think that is a very fundamental difference, and for NXT to grow means growing into that direction.

NXT is (just) an API, Bitcoin is a protocol - and the first step to getting to being a protocol is try to attract more developers.

Example: A protocol is language agnostic, so there should be no reason why there should not be an NXT implementation in C++ or c.
But obviously, it is currently not really imaginable to have one, so there is still a long way for NXT to grow from API to Protocol...

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #60 on: April 04, 2016, 10:49:46 am »

Example: A protocol is language agnostic, so there should be no reason why there should not be an NXT implementation in C++ or c.
But obviously, it is currently not really imaginable to have one, so there is still a long way for NXT to grow from API to Protocol...
Why do you think a C++ implementation of Nxt is not imaginable? It seems to me the only things preventing one are the rapid pace of change in Nxt, and the lack of demand.
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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #61 on: April 04, 2016, 12:10:31 pm »

Example: A protocol is language agnostic, so there should be no reason why there should not be an NXT implementation in C++ or c.
But obviously, it is currently not really imaginable to have one, so there is still a long way for NXT to grow from API to Protocol...
Why do you think a C++ implementation of Nxt is not imaginable? It seems to me the only things preventing one are the rapid pace of change in Nxt, and the lack of demand.

it is currently not imaginable because there is nobody in the world who could do it, including Jean-Luc.

That is my whole point. So if you grab some C++ books, then re-implement the NXT API from java into C++, you will have made it happen, but I am sure it will take longer than ...
I don't know, what would you say? 1 year? 2 years?

So yes, lack of demand and lack of resources also. Difference between API and Protocol, with a capital 'P'
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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #62 on: April 04, 2016, 12:16:03 pm »

Example: A protocol is language agnostic, so there should be no reason why there should not be an NXT implementation in C++ or c.
But obviously, it is currently not really imaginable to have one, so there is still a long way for NXT to grow from API to Protocol...
Why do you think a C++ implementation of Nxt is not imaginable? It seems to me the only things preventing one are the rapid pace of change in Nxt, and the lack of demand.

it is currently not imaginable because there is nobody in the world who could do it, including Jean-Luc.

That is my whole point. So if you grab some C++ books, then re-implement the NXT API from java into C++, you will have made it happen, but I am sure it will take longer than ...
I don't know, what would you say? 1 year? 2 years?

So yes, lack of demand and lack of resources also. Difference between API and Protocol, with a capital 'P'
I once spent 2-3 months re-implementing NRS into C#. Java is quite similar to C# in many ways, but still the problem was that the core devs kept adding features faster than I could translate them into C#.
If the NRS code would just stand still for a few months or so I'm sure I could do it. I guess it's a nice problem to have in a way. :)
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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #63 on: April 04, 2016, 01:01:13 pm »


I once spent 2-3 months re-implementing NRS into C#. Java is quite similar to C# in many ways, but still the problem was that the core devs kept adding features faster than I could translate them into C#.
If the NRS code would just stand still for a few months or so I'm sure I could do it. I guess it's a nice problem to have in a way. :)

WOW! I am surprised, I was not aware that there are people around in the NXT community that have the ability to do this!

I assumed that the NRS java code is too dense to translate into another language without being an expert in java AND the other language used!
Good, so this shifts the problem to a slightly smaller one - enabling guys like you to keep up by putting a stabilization of the API evolution on the horizon!
 
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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #64 on: April 04, 2016, 01:08:56 pm »

it is currently not imaginable because there is nobody in the world who could do it, including Jean-Luc.
I'm sure there are at least 20 people on this forum who have enough skill to do it.

That is my whole point. So if you grab some C++ books, then re-implement the NXT API from java into C++, you will have made it happen, but I am sure it will take longer than ...
I don't know, what would you say? 1 year? 2 years?
Once NXT gets big enough [$100 of millions, possibly more], people will start reimplementing it. Right now there is no business need to do it so nobody bothers.
Reimplementation is faster than initial implementation because you don't have to stumble around so much.
Bitcoin also had no alternative implementation before hitting $150mil, but bitcoind was much, much worse than NRS.
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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #65 on: April 04, 2016, 01:09:40 pm »


I once spent 2-3 months re-implementing NRS into C#. Java is quite similar to C# in many ways, but still the problem was that the core devs kept adding features faster than I could translate them into C#.
If the NRS code would just stand still for a few months or so I'm sure I could do it. I guess it's a nice problem to have in a way. :)

WOW! I am surprised, I was not aware that there are people around in the NXT community that have the ability to do this!

I assumed that the NRS java code is too dense to translate into another language without being an expert in java AND the other language used!
Good, so this shifts the problem to a slightly smaller one - enabling guys like you to keep up by putting a stabilization of the API evolution on the horizon!

There are many things that we don't share, which is part of the reason it seems not a lot is happening.

Share these things, people :)

I've created a #development channel on the Nxtchat Slack. Join us: https://nxtchat.herokuapp.com/
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NxtSwe

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #66 on: April 04, 2016, 01:58:47 pm »


I once spent 2-3 months re-implementing NRS into C#. Java is quite similar to C# in many ways, but still the problem was that the core devs kept adding features faster than I could translate them into C#.
If the NRS code would just stand still for a few months or so I'm sure I could do it. I guess it's a nice problem to have in a way. :)

WOW! I am surprised, I was not aware that there are people around in the NXT community that have the ability to do this!

I assumed that the NRS java code is too dense to translate into another language without being an expert in java AND the other language used!
Good, so this shifts the problem to a slightly smaller one - enabling guys like you to keep up by putting a stabilization of the API evolution on the horizon!
Please note that this was 2 years ago, while the code base was a lot smaller than today.
And I never finished it, since I could not keep up with the new development of the core devs.

I did put the code here for anyone interested: https://github.com/libertyswede/Nxt.NET/
According to the code, the NRS was on version 1.1.5 when I did this.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2016, 02:05:43 pm by NxtSwe »
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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #67 on: April 04, 2016, 03:30:01 pm »

it is currently not imaginable because there is nobody in the world who could do it, including Jean-Luc.
I'm sure there are at least 20 people on this forum who have enough skill to do it.

That is my whole point. So if you grab some C++ books, then re-implement the NXT API from java into C++, you will have made it happen, but I am sure it will take longer than ...
I don't know, what would you say? 1 year? 2 years?
Once NXT gets big enough [$100 of millions, possibly more], people will start reimplementing it. Right now there is no business need to do it so nobody bothers.
Reimplementation is faster than initial implementation because you don't have to stumble around so much.
Bitcoin also had no alternative implementation before hitting $150mil, but bitcoind was much, much worse than NRS.
That is true.  I wrote a Java implementation of bitcoind (JavaBitcoin).  That was possible because the Bitcoin protocol is pretty static.  But I still had to crawl through the bitcoind C++ code due to the lack of protocol documentation (the bitcoind developers maintain that the code IS the documentation, which means the protocol potentially changes each time the code is updated).

The same is true for NRS.  You would have to crawl through the Java implementation to determine the protocol.  And you would have to precisely emulate the account processing to ensure the balances are correct after each block (this is not as simple as it sounds).  And Nxt is still evolving with new transaction types and API functions every release.  In effect, you would be chasing a moving target.
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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #68 on: April 04, 2016, 06:06:11 pm »

I am late to the discussion, but I have to say that I share some of the concerns Marc was bringing up.

I have never been fully comfortable with the idea that a small group of insiders are having secret business meetings, and then claim that it somehow helps all NXT holders, or the value of NXT in general. The fact that you are having meetings with companies is great, but the secrecy makes it problematic for average NXT owner. It divides us clearly into insiders and outsiders, where only a small group of people know what is going on. Even if Damelon is being honest, and really working for the benefit of average NXT holder, we essentially have no way to verify that. I see there is a large potential for conflict of interest.

To make matters worse, the proposal of NXT 2.0 marked a clear shift in strategy, where the focus of making things more favorable for these companies became a priority. It was stated over and over again that the reason why we need NXT 2.0 and sidechains is that "businesses are asking for it". It certainly felt like doing what the businesses are asking became the first priority of certain people. Of course, you claim that it benefits all NXT holders, and you probably genuinely believe that, but it is a slippery slope.

Now on the topic of Jean-Luc, consider these quotes:

Without an IPO, NXT2.0 will still be developed. But if instead of being crowdfunded it ends up being financed by private investors, it will be those investors that decide where and how it gets deployed.

Such a business can and will be launched. It will serve the needs of customers paying for private blockchains. It will have zero incentive to release any code to be used for a public blockchain, and will likely be prohibited from doing so. This is how I see the future of NXT2.0 in the absence of crowdfunding. The developers will work for those who pay the bills.

The Tennessee fund of 10M NXT is worth 78k USD. This is not enough to hire even a single developer at market rates.

He could not be more clear on this subject. If we don't have an IPO (where he presumably gets a lot of money), he will work for the interests of private investors who pay him, not for the benefit of the NXT community or NXT owners. Please let that sink in for a minute, before you continue to claim that there is no conflict of interests.

And don't get me wrong, I am all for Jean-Luc being paid for his work. I just want to know, since he has apparently worked for free until now, what caused this sudden shift where money is now everything?
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EvilDave

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #69 on: April 04, 2016, 08:36:06 pm »

Quick interjection: as one of the guys having 'secret' business meetings (one today and two tomorrow, fyi  ;D ) I need to point out out a couple of things:

We simply can't publicise every possible meeting that we have. Many lead to nothing very much immediately  (but obviously could develop into projects over the long term) and some lead to ongoing projects......but if we publicise any of this stuff on the forum (or even on Slack) many businesses will get very unhappy with us. We have to conduct a lot of this stuff by mainstream rules, or we simply won't get anywhere.

Sorry, guys and girls. I have a real problem keeping this stuff under my hat, btw, so I can understand how frustrating it is to simply hear "We had a meeting" from myself or Damelon....but, yeah, that's how it goes. Trust us... or at least trust me  ;) a bit.

If you have any serious doubts about how the Foundation is rolling, get in touch with us directly, and we'll explain as much as we can about what we are currently working on. Or come along to a meetup, if you can.....or send one of your mates to check us out:

http://www.meetup.com/BitcoinWednesday/events/224454212/?comment_table_id=243864188&comment_table_name=reply
http://www.bitcoinwednesday.com/event/bitcoin-wednesday-34/

Edit: on the subject of Jean-Luc. In the above quotes, he's simply explaining the situation that he is in. Nxt 2.0 will take a lot of time to create, and it would be a lot easier (and more certain to succeed) if there was a substantial development fund. That's just how it is. Ethereum is succeeding, not because of their tech right now, but because they do have access to a big pile of cash for extra devs and marketing.
Nxt can achieve miracles on not much cash, but we could achieve miracles faster with some serious financial backing.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2016, 08:41:21 pm by EvilDave »
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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #70 on: April 04, 2016, 11:21:02 pm »

Yes we -- could -- So nothing tells us it's worth. Secret informations are no information. "Interested business" means nothing else than hope until they buy. And you do not invest seriously based on hopes and beliefs.


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Damelon

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #71 on: April 04, 2016, 11:41:46 pm »

Yes we -- could -- So nothing tells us it's worth. Secret informations are no information. "Interested business" means nothing else than hope until they buy. And you do not invest seriously based on hopes and beliefs.


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Which is exactly the reason we are mostly just not saying anything.

I've seen too many ANNs, pre-ANNs etc for my taste. Unless there is something solid, we cannot say, but sometimes we at least need to say there's something, because people donated to us and we need to at least say we are busy and on the job.

As to "secret business meetings", I personally see nothing wrong with us trying to on-board businesses onto Nxt. That in itself affects no one and is no different from when they'd eventually found out on their own. The "secret business meetings" could just as well be called "private business meetings", because that is what they are. What we want, because we think it's needed, are businesses to drive the Nxt economy. There is widespread concern over the network needing activity, and we are trying to provide that in our own way.

I agree that once it is about the IP and direction that Nxt is taking that it becomes important and the community should be a part of this. In fact, at this moment it is.
It is definitely true that we are sharing input we get from our talks, and again, I also see nothing weird there. We are sharing with you what we share with the devs.
I am sure that I've put up more than enough posts about trademarking, MS Coins, businesses that have questions etc to sound like a stuck record at times.

However, we will get this issue anyway. Once businesses and an economy comes to Nxt (and I think we all want that) we will all have to deal with the reality that you have new stakeholders that will demand things. At the moment, we are just relaying things directly from the market.

I think that this

Quote
To make matters worse, the proposal of NXT 2.0 marked a clear shift in strategy, where the focus of making things more favorable for these companies became a priority. It was stated over and over again that the reason why we need NXT 2.0 and sidechains is that "businesses are asking for it". It certainly felt like doing what the businesses are asking became the first priority of certain people.

Is a misinterpretation, though.

"Businesses" in this context, at least when I am talking about it, doesn't mean "large corporations", which seems implied in this sentence.
It means ANY business, and that can also be a small business or a single entrepeneur.

Nxt has a few quirks that definitely are making it more difficult for them to come aboard.
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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #72 on: April 05, 2016, 08:32:25 am »


That is true.  I wrote a Java implementation of bitcoind (JavaBitcoin).  That was possible because the Bitcoin protocol is pretty static.  But I still had to crawl through the bitcoind C++ code due to the lack of protocol documentation (the bitcoind developers maintain that the code IS the documentation, which means the protocol potentially changes each time the code is updated).

The same is true for NRS.  You would have to crawl through the Java implementation to determine the protocol.  And you would have to precisely emulate the account processing to ensure the balances are correct after each block (this is not as simple as it sounds).  And Nxt is still evolving with new transaction types and API functions every release.  In effect, you would be chasing a moving target.

Well thanks, that is what I wanted to express but failed to put into words.

Right now, the NXT protocol spec *is* the source code, and nothing else.
Getting through a source code in order to implement a protocol is an extremely arduous task, if possible at all, and such an MO is simply not on par wih a proper definition of a protocol.
In order to take it to another level, a language agnostic protocol spec is needed.

As I see it, doing an IPO for NXT2.0 would be very helpful, especially in light of the apparent deadlock NXT seems to be in currently.
Of course, ICO mania is high, and the question will be when/if the market is saturated- but probably there is plenty of room for ICOs so why not.

But- it will certainly be a discontinuity. In fact, I would see it as a complete reboot of NXT as NXT 2.0 - am I completely off there?

In any case, having business interest using such a platform will be very beneficial for all parties involved, but having it run as a community and not as a purely private venture will be much better, also for the businesses involved.

SO an ICO seems to be the way to go, but it is quite a big thing.

 
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LocoMB

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #73 on: April 05, 2016, 08:35:59 am »


"Businesses" in this context, at least when I am talking about it, doesn't mean "large corporations", which seems implied in this sentence.
It means ANY business, and that can also be a small business or a single entrepeneur.

Nxt has a few quirks that definitely are making it more difficult for them to come aboard.

NXT2.0 will have the potential to offer services for thousands of small and medium businesses- that can become a very powerful thing.
It is a bit of a fallacy to assoicate 'business' always with names like Siemens or General Motors.

Farl4bit is a nice example- and ther ehave been at least half a dozen small businesses that tried to do business on NXT.
Wasn't there a bakery, and NXT-Cafe?
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maddy83

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #74 on: April 05, 2016, 03:46:09 pm »

And you do not invest seriously based on hopes and beliefs.

Hard to see how you can invest in NXT then. If there's ever an "investment" which is based on hope and belief (e.g. pure speculation), it's this.

Quote
To make matters worse, the proposal of NXT 2.0 marked a clear shift in strategy, where the focus of making things more favorable for these companies became a priority. It was stated over and over again that the reason why we need NXT 2.0 and sidechains is that "businesses are asking for it". It certainly felt like doing what the businesses are asking became the first priority of certain people.

Is a misinterpretation, though.

"Businesses" in this context, at least when I am talking about it, doesn't mean "large corporations", which seems implied in this sentence.
It means ANY business, and that can also be a small business or a single entrepeneur.

Nxt has a few quirks that definitely are making it more difficult for them to come aboard.

Thanks for the response. "Large corporations" was never implied in my sentence, I was talking about all size of businesses, and more specifically the businesses which you have been in contact with. Large corporations can afford their own technology, so I think they are less relevant to NXT.
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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #75 on: April 06, 2016, 12:17:49 am »



And you do not invest seriously based on hopes and beliefs.

Hard to see how you can invest in NXT then. If there's ever an "investment" which is based on hope and belief (e.g. pure speculation), it's this.


it's sad that you do not see the difference.
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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #76 on: April 06, 2016, 02:30:54 am »

I'm sorry that I lost so many information on Nxt 2.0 and those debates.

On the ICO for Nxt 2.0, is it possible that we distribute fNxt as 50:50(or other proportions) to the present Nxt holders and the additional ICO participants? AFAIK, B&C Exchanges distribute part to the Nushares holders and part to the buyers so that they can raise some cash funds.

« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 02:34:54 am by Jimmy2011 »
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