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Author Topic: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?  (Read 12382 times)

Brangdon

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #60 on: April 04, 2016, 10:49:46 am »

Example: A protocol is language agnostic, so there should be no reason why there should not be an NXT implementation in C++ or c.
But obviously, it is currently not really imaginable to have one, so there is still a long way for NXT to grow from API to Protocol...
Why do you think a C++ implementation of Nxt is not imaginable? It seems to me the only things preventing one are the rapid pace of change in Nxt, and the lack of demand.
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LocoMB

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #61 on: April 04, 2016, 12:10:31 pm »

Example: A protocol is language agnostic, so there should be no reason why there should not be an NXT implementation in C++ or c.
But obviously, it is currently not really imaginable to have one, so there is still a long way for NXT to grow from API to Protocol...
Why do you think a C++ implementation of Nxt is not imaginable? It seems to me the only things preventing one are the rapid pace of change in Nxt, and the lack of demand.

it is currently not imaginable because there is nobody in the world who could do it, including Jean-Luc.

That is my whole point. So if you grab some C++ books, then re-implement the NXT API from java into C++, you will have made it happen, but I am sure it will take longer than ...
I don't know, what would you say? 1 year? 2 years?

So yes, lack of demand and lack of resources also. Difference between API and Protocol, with a capital 'P'
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NxtSwe

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #62 on: April 04, 2016, 12:16:03 pm »

Example: A protocol is language agnostic, so there should be no reason why there should not be an NXT implementation in C++ or c.
But obviously, it is currently not really imaginable to have one, so there is still a long way for NXT to grow from API to Protocol...
Why do you think a C++ implementation of Nxt is not imaginable? It seems to me the only things preventing one are the rapid pace of change in Nxt, and the lack of demand.

it is currently not imaginable because there is nobody in the world who could do it, including Jean-Luc.

That is my whole point. So if you grab some C++ books, then re-implement the NXT API from java into C++, you will have made it happen, but I am sure it will take longer than ...
I don't know, what would you say? 1 year? 2 years?

So yes, lack of demand and lack of resources also. Difference between API and Protocol, with a capital 'P'
I once spent 2-3 months re-implementing NRS into C#. Java is quite similar to C# in many ways, but still the problem was that the core devs kept adding features faster than I could translate them into C#.
If the NRS code would just stand still for a few months or so I'm sure I could do it. I guess it's a nice problem to have in a way. :)
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LocoMB

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #63 on: April 04, 2016, 01:01:13 pm »


I once spent 2-3 months re-implementing NRS into C#. Java is quite similar to C# in many ways, but still the problem was that the core devs kept adding features faster than I could translate them into C#.
If the NRS code would just stand still for a few months or so I'm sure I could do it. I guess it's a nice problem to have in a way. :)

WOW! I am surprised, I was not aware that there are people around in the NXT community that have the ability to do this!

I assumed that the NRS java code is too dense to translate into another language without being an expert in java AND the other language used!
Good, so this shifts the problem to a slightly smaller one - enabling guys like you to keep up by putting a stabilization of the API evolution on the horizon!
 
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bcdev

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #64 on: April 04, 2016, 01:08:56 pm »

it is currently not imaginable because there is nobody in the world who could do it, including Jean-Luc.
I'm sure there are at least 20 people on this forum who have enough skill to do it.

That is my whole point. So if you grab some C++ books, then re-implement the NXT API from java into C++, you will have made it happen, but I am sure it will take longer than ...
I don't know, what would you say? 1 year? 2 years?
Once NXT gets big enough [$100 of millions, possibly more], people will start reimplementing it. Right now there is no business need to do it so nobody bothers.
Reimplementation is faster than initial implementation because you don't have to stumble around so much.
Bitcoin also had no alternative implementation before hitting $150mil, but bitcoind was much, much worse than NRS.
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Damelon

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #65 on: April 04, 2016, 01:09:40 pm »


I once spent 2-3 months re-implementing NRS into C#. Java is quite similar to C# in many ways, but still the problem was that the core devs kept adding features faster than I could translate them into C#.
If the NRS code would just stand still for a few months or so I'm sure I could do it. I guess it's a nice problem to have in a way. :)

WOW! I am surprised, I was not aware that there are people around in the NXT community that have the ability to do this!

I assumed that the NRS java code is too dense to translate into another language without being an expert in java AND the other language used!
Good, so this shifts the problem to a slightly smaller one - enabling guys like you to keep up by putting a stabilization of the API evolution on the horizon!

There are many things that we don't share, which is part of the reason it seems not a lot is happening.

Share these things, people :)

I've created a #development channel on the Nxtchat Slack. Join us: https://nxtchat.herokuapp.com/
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NxtSwe

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #66 on: April 04, 2016, 01:58:47 pm »


I once spent 2-3 months re-implementing NRS into C#. Java is quite similar to C# in many ways, but still the problem was that the core devs kept adding features faster than I could translate them into C#.
If the NRS code would just stand still for a few months or so I'm sure I could do it. I guess it's a nice problem to have in a way. :)

WOW! I am surprised, I was not aware that there are people around in the NXT community that have the ability to do this!

I assumed that the NRS java code is too dense to translate into another language without being an expert in java AND the other language used!
Good, so this shifts the problem to a slightly smaller one - enabling guys like you to keep up by putting a stabilization of the API evolution on the horizon!
Please note that this was 2 years ago, while the code base was a lot smaller than today.
And I never finished it, since I could not keep up with the new development of the core devs.

I did put the code here for anyone interested: https://github.com/libertyswede/Nxt.NET/
According to the code, the NRS was on version 1.1.5 when I did this.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2016, 02:05:43 pm by NxtSwe »
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ScripterRon

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #67 on: April 04, 2016, 03:30:01 pm »

it is currently not imaginable because there is nobody in the world who could do it, including Jean-Luc.
I'm sure there are at least 20 people on this forum who have enough skill to do it.

That is my whole point. So if you grab some C++ books, then re-implement the NXT API from java into C++, you will have made it happen, but I am sure it will take longer than ...
I don't know, what would you say? 1 year? 2 years?
Once NXT gets big enough [$100 of millions, possibly more], people will start reimplementing it. Right now there is no business need to do it so nobody bothers.
Reimplementation is faster than initial implementation because you don't have to stumble around so much.
Bitcoin also had no alternative implementation before hitting $150mil, but bitcoind was much, much worse than NRS.
That is true.  I wrote a Java implementation of bitcoind (JavaBitcoin).  That was possible because the Bitcoin protocol is pretty static.  But I still had to crawl through the bitcoind C++ code due to the lack of protocol documentation (the bitcoind developers maintain that the code IS the documentation, which means the protocol potentially changes each time the code is updated).

The same is true for NRS.  You would have to crawl through the Java implementation to determine the protocol.  And you would have to precisely emulate the account processing to ensure the balances are correct after each block (this is not as simple as it sounds).  And Nxt is still evolving with new transaction types and API functions every release.  In effect, you would be chasing a moving target.
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maddy83

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #68 on: April 04, 2016, 06:06:11 pm »

I am late to the discussion, but I have to say that I share some of the concerns Marc was bringing up.

I have never been fully comfortable with the idea that a small group of insiders are having secret business meetings, and then claim that it somehow helps all NXT holders, or the value of NXT in general. The fact that you are having meetings with companies is great, but the secrecy makes it problematic for average NXT owner. It divides us clearly into insiders and outsiders, where only a small group of people know what is going on. Even if Damelon is being honest, and really working for the benefit of average NXT holder, we essentially have no way to verify that. I see there is a large potential for conflict of interest.

To make matters worse, the proposal of NXT 2.0 marked a clear shift in strategy, where the focus of making things more favorable for these companies became a priority. It was stated over and over again that the reason why we need NXT 2.0 and sidechains is that "businesses are asking for it". It certainly felt like doing what the businesses are asking became the first priority of certain people. Of course, you claim that it benefits all NXT holders, and you probably genuinely believe that, but it is a slippery slope.

Now on the topic of Jean-Luc, consider these quotes:

Without an IPO, NXT2.0 will still be developed. But if instead of being crowdfunded it ends up being financed by private investors, it will be those investors that decide where and how it gets deployed.

Such a business can and will be launched. It will serve the needs of customers paying for private blockchains. It will have zero incentive to release any code to be used for a public blockchain, and will likely be prohibited from doing so. This is how I see the future of NXT2.0 in the absence of crowdfunding. The developers will work for those who pay the bills.

The Tennessee fund of 10M NXT is worth 78k USD. This is not enough to hire even a single developer at market rates.

He could not be more clear on this subject. If we don't have an IPO (where he presumably gets a lot of money), he will work for the interests of private investors who pay him, not for the benefit of the NXT community or NXT owners. Please let that sink in for a minute, before you continue to claim that there is no conflict of interests.

And don't get me wrong, I am all for Jean-Luc being paid for his work. I just want to know, since he has apparently worked for free until now, what caused this sudden shift where money is now everything?
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EvilDave

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #69 on: April 04, 2016, 08:36:06 pm »

Quick interjection: as one of the guys having 'secret' business meetings (one today and two tomorrow, fyi  ;D ) I need to point out out a couple of things:

We simply can't publicise every possible meeting that we have. Many lead to nothing very much immediately  (but obviously could develop into projects over the long term) and some lead to ongoing projects......but if we publicise any of this stuff on the forum (or even on Slack) many businesses will get very unhappy with us. We have to conduct a lot of this stuff by mainstream rules, or we simply won't get anywhere.

Sorry, guys and girls. I have a real problem keeping this stuff under my hat, btw, so I can understand how frustrating it is to simply hear "We had a meeting" from myself or Damelon....but, yeah, that's how it goes. Trust us... or at least trust me  ;) a bit.

If you have any serious doubts about how the Foundation is rolling, get in touch with us directly, and we'll explain as much as we can about what we are currently working on. Or come along to a meetup, if you can.....or send one of your mates to check us out:

http://www.meetup.com/BitcoinWednesday/events/224454212/?comment_table_id=243864188&comment_table_name=reply
http://www.bitcoinwednesday.com/event/bitcoin-wednesday-34/

Edit: on the subject of Jean-Luc. In the above quotes, he's simply explaining the situation that he is in. Nxt 2.0 will take a lot of time to create, and it would be a lot easier (and more certain to succeed) if there was a substantial development fund. That's just how it is. Ethereum is succeeding, not because of their tech right now, but because they do have access to a big pile of cash for extra devs and marketing.
Nxt can achieve miracles on not much cash, but we could achieve miracles faster with some serious financial backing.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2016, 08:41:21 pm by EvilDave »
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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #70 on: April 04, 2016, 11:21:02 pm »

Yes we -- could -- So nothing tells us it's worth. Secret informations are no information. "Interested business" means nothing else than hope until they buy. And you do not invest seriously based on hopes and beliefs.


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Damelon

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #71 on: April 04, 2016, 11:41:46 pm »

Yes we -- could -- So nothing tells us it's worth. Secret informations are no information. "Interested business" means nothing else than hope until they buy. And you do not invest seriously based on hopes and beliefs.


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Which is exactly the reason we are mostly just not saying anything.

I've seen too many ANNs, pre-ANNs etc for my taste. Unless there is something solid, we cannot say, but sometimes we at least need to say there's something, because people donated to us and we need to at least say we are busy and on the job.

As to "secret business meetings", I personally see nothing wrong with us trying to on-board businesses onto Nxt. That in itself affects no one and is no different from when they'd eventually found out on their own. The "secret business meetings" could just as well be called "private business meetings", because that is what they are. What we want, because we think it's needed, are businesses to drive the Nxt economy. There is widespread concern over the network needing activity, and we are trying to provide that in our own way.

I agree that once it is about the IP and direction that Nxt is taking that it becomes important and the community should be a part of this. In fact, at this moment it is.
It is definitely true that we are sharing input we get from our talks, and again, I also see nothing weird there. We are sharing with you what we share with the devs.
I am sure that I've put up more than enough posts about trademarking, MS Coins, businesses that have questions etc to sound like a stuck record at times.

However, we will get this issue anyway. Once businesses and an economy comes to Nxt (and I think we all want that) we will all have to deal with the reality that you have new stakeholders that will demand things. At the moment, we are just relaying things directly from the market.

I think that this

Quote
To make matters worse, the proposal of NXT 2.0 marked a clear shift in strategy, where the focus of making things more favorable for these companies became a priority. It was stated over and over again that the reason why we need NXT 2.0 and sidechains is that "businesses are asking for it". It certainly felt like doing what the businesses are asking became the first priority of certain people.

Is a misinterpretation, though.

"Businesses" in this context, at least when I am talking about it, doesn't mean "large corporations", which seems implied in this sentence.
It means ANY business, and that can also be a small business or a single entrepeneur.

Nxt has a few quirks that definitely are making it more difficult for them to come aboard.
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LocoMB

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #72 on: April 05, 2016, 08:32:25 am »


That is true.  I wrote a Java implementation of bitcoind (JavaBitcoin).  That was possible because the Bitcoin protocol is pretty static.  But I still had to crawl through the bitcoind C++ code due to the lack of protocol documentation (the bitcoind developers maintain that the code IS the documentation, which means the protocol potentially changes each time the code is updated).

The same is true for NRS.  You would have to crawl through the Java implementation to determine the protocol.  And you would have to precisely emulate the account processing to ensure the balances are correct after each block (this is not as simple as it sounds).  And Nxt is still evolving with new transaction types and API functions every release.  In effect, you would be chasing a moving target.

Well thanks, that is what I wanted to express but failed to put into words.

Right now, the NXT protocol spec *is* the source code, and nothing else.
Getting through a source code in order to implement a protocol is an extremely arduous task, if possible at all, and such an MO is simply not on par wih a proper definition of a protocol.
In order to take it to another level, a language agnostic protocol spec is needed.

As I see it, doing an IPO for NXT2.0 would be very helpful, especially in light of the apparent deadlock NXT seems to be in currently.
Of course, ICO mania is high, and the question will be when/if the market is saturated- but probably there is plenty of room for ICOs so why not.

But- it will certainly be a discontinuity. In fact, I would see it as a complete reboot of NXT as NXT 2.0 - am I completely off there?

In any case, having business interest using such a platform will be very beneficial for all parties involved, but having it run as a community and not as a purely private venture will be much better, also for the businesses involved.

SO an ICO seems to be the way to go, but it is quite a big thing.

 
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LocoMB

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #73 on: April 05, 2016, 08:35:59 am »


"Businesses" in this context, at least when I am talking about it, doesn't mean "large corporations", which seems implied in this sentence.
It means ANY business, and that can also be a small business or a single entrepeneur.

Nxt has a few quirks that definitely are making it more difficult for them to come aboard.

NXT2.0 will have the potential to offer services for thousands of small and medium businesses- that can become a very powerful thing.
It is a bit of a fallacy to assoicate 'business' always with names like Siemens or General Motors.

Farl4bit is a nice example- and ther ehave been at least half a dozen small businesses that tried to do business on NXT.
Wasn't there a bakery, and NXT-Cafe?
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maddy83

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #74 on: April 05, 2016, 03:46:09 pm »

And you do not invest seriously based on hopes and beliefs.

Hard to see how you can invest in NXT then. If there's ever an "investment" which is based on hope and belief (e.g. pure speculation), it's this.

Quote
To make matters worse, the proposal of NXT 2.0 marked a clear shift in strategy, where the focus of making things more favorable for these companies became a priority. It was stated over and over again that the reason why we need NXT 2.0 and sidechains is that "businesses are asking for it". It certainly felt like doing what the businesses are asking became the first priority of certain people.

Is a misinterpretation, though.

"Businesses" in this context, at least when I am talking about it, doesn't mean "large corporations", which seems implied in this sentence.
It means ANY business, and that can also be a small business or a single entrepeneur.

Nxt has a few quirks that definitely are making it more difficult for them to come aboard.

Thanks for the response. "Large corporations" was never implied in my sentence, I was talking about all size of businesses, and more specifically the businesses which you have been in contact with. Large corporations can afford their own technology, so I think they are less relevant to NXT.
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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #75 on: April 06, 2016, 12:17:49 am »



And you do not invest seriously based on hopes and beliefs.

Hard to see how you can invest in NXT then. If there's ever an "investment" which is based on hope and belief (e.g. pure speculation), it's this.


it's sad that you do not see the difference.
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Jimmy2011

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #76 on: April 06, 2016, 02:30:54 am »

I'm sorry that I lost so many information on Nxt 2.0 and those debates.

On the ICO for Nxt 2.0, is it possible that we distribute fNxt as 50:50(or other proportions) to the present Nxt holders and the additional ICO participants? AFAIK, B&C Exchanges distribute part to the Nushares holders and part to the buyers so that they can raise some cash funds.

« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 02:34:54 am by Jimmy2011 »
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