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So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
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Author Topic: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?  (Read 12586 times)

Marc De Mesel

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I get the impression people are afraid to vote against Jean-Luc his 2.0 proposal as they fear if Jean-Luc leaves Nxt, which he has indeed threatened to do if his proposal is not approved, Nxt would be much worse off.

I challenge you to think more about this.


Do you really think Nxt will be unable to find another quality program lead?

Marc De Mesel

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2016, 08:51:48 am »

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« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 09:00:51 am by Marc De Mesel »
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Sebastien256

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2016, 08:56:48 am »

I vote for 2.0 because I think it is a very nice and useful contribution to the field.
I don't understand why you don't want Nxt to be globally scalable by wanting people to vote against 2.0.
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Marc De Mesel

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2016, 09:02:03 am »

I vote for 2.0 because I think it is a very nice and useful contribution to the field.
I don't understand why you don't want Nxt to be globally scalable by wanting people to vote against 2.0.

For so many reasons.

Where do I start?

Do you think it's going well with Nxt?

Marc De Mesel

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2016, 09:05:01 am »

Is scaling Nxt going to solve our problems?

What's our problem?

Sebastien256

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2016, 09:36:33 am »

Scaling is a problem for all crypto. Having someone in Nxt dev team with a solution to this is great. I'm happy that a Nxt dev want to improve Nxt in that way.

Imo, a dev is free to do whatever it please him if he work for free, I won't blame a dev for that since the dev would owe nothing to anyone. It then to the community to accept or not the changes by the dev. So I see no reason at all to prevent JL to do the coding that he want to do, it not like what he is doing is bad.

Here a few problems:

- Nxt one problem in my opinion is that the devellopment is not completly open source and that prevent new devs from joining the team easily.
- I also think it would be ideal if JL would be publicly known. This would help to promote Nxt as he could participate lively, but I also understand the reason he do not want to.
- Funding is also a problem and this is why I agree with devlux preliminary proposition on a "pay on devlivery" system (I would need to see the whitepaper to be sure I agree with the complete concept tho). That would help Nxt devellopment for sure. To raise funding, I also think new feature could be sell in a ipo (https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/ipo-of-future-feature/).  Those two propositions are two way to get new funding without screwing the current Nxt holder, imo.

That is what comming to my mind at the moment.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 09:53:56 am by Sebastien256 »
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remix

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2016, 09:41:01 am »

How does Jean-Luc working on 2.0 prevent working on the other problems? The ones that I have seen mentioned, such as new clients, can be made by anyone.

Is the lack of alternative UIs the problem? We can have a competition for new clients with a prize for winner, or we can pay somebody to implement new clients. Somebody from the community can step up and start implementing. Useful would be discussion about what the clients should look like and do.
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Brangdon

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2016, 09:54:55 am »

I get the impression people are afraid to vote against Jean-Luc his 2.0 proposal as they fear if Jean-Luc leaves Nxt, which he has indeed threatened to do if his proposal is not approved, Nxt would be much worse off.
I certainly think we'd be worse off if Jean-Luc left. Whether he would leave, and whether the possibility should affect how people vote, are another matter. Technically, I think scalability is important and 2.0 looks a good way to improve it.

Quote
Do you really think Nxt will be unable to find another quality program lead?
That's a separate question. If you know of another quality programmer who can do crypto stuff, by all means hire them. They can work on other stuff while Jean-Luc does 2.0.

It's not like Jean-Luc leaving would free up resources that could be spent on someone else. As I understand it, he's not paid from community funds.
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Marc De Mesel

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2016, 09:55:16 am »

Scaling is a problem for all crypto. Having someone in Nxt dev team with a solution to this is great. I'm happy that a Nxt dev want to improve Nxt in that way.

Imo, a dev ishould be free to do whatever it please him if he work for free, I won't blame a dev for that since the dev would owe nothing to anyone. It then to the community to accept or not the changes by the dev. So I see no reason at all to prevent JL to do the coding that he want to do, it not like what he is doing is bad.

He's not working for free. He claimed the exclusive right to copy and sell the Nxt software under another license, while doing this he took our right to copy and sell it under another license, away. He's building valuable software for himself, for the most part, while we finance it, test it, promote it.

Bas and his Nxt Foundation, while funded by Nxt coinholders, is focused on selling this Nxt software to parties that want a private license, and the money from that will go to them.


That's the main business strategy here, very different from what benefits coinholders, which would be to find people that use the Nxt blockchain, not the Nxt software.

Sure they say they also do all this to give value to the Nxt blockchain, but talk is cheap, actions and results count, and the amount of users on our blockchain is not growing.

Howcome he is interested in scaling while we don't have the users to justify it? It looks to me he is primarily in the software business, not building our blockchain. 


Here a few problems:

- Nxt one problem in my opinion is that the devellopment is not completly open source and that prevent new devs from joining the team easily.

I wasn't aware of that, what parts are not open source?



- Funding is also a problem and this is why I agree with devlux preliminary proposition on a "pay on devlivery" system (I would need to see the whitepaper to be sure I agree with the complete concept tho). That would help Nxt devellopment for sure. To raise funding, I also think new feature could be sell in a ipo (https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/ipo-of-future-feature/).  Those two propositions are two way to get new funding without screwing the current Nxt holder, imo.

Good ideas indeed that I'm studying more.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 10:25:43 am by Marc De Mesel »
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Marc De Mesel

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2016, 10:04:50 am »

How does Jean-Luc working on 2.0 prevent working on the other problems? The ones that I have seen mentioned, such as new clients, can be made by anyone.

Because the decisions Jean-Luc makes chase away the users on our blockchain. People that build applications on top of it, people that issue assets, people that build websites, he changes the fees or the api's, and now even the properties of the currency, and with every update we lose users here, and win some others there, net result: no extra users, now for 2 years.

« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 10:08:13 am by Marc De Mesel »
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Sebastien256

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2016, 10:09:10 am »

Only the release code is open source, so any new devs have to work on the code version of the last release if he has no access to the private development branches. In Nxt, the code in devellopment are in private development branches. That is my understanding.

I advocate for a full public devellopment, and that would certainly help getting new devs more easilly.

Ps. for the license thing, are you not twisting fact a bit? All contributors the to the NXT code own the copyright of the server part only. But i agree it may have some truth in your statement. Would be great if core devs give rebutal to marc statement here or give further explanation.
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remix

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2016, 10:22:36 am »

He's not working for free. He claimed the exclusive right to copy and sell the Nxt software under another license, while doing this he took our right to copy and sell it under another license, away.

Under the GPL anyone can copy or sell the Nxt code. The GPL is considered legally valid. The stakeholders don't get rights to the software (they can modify or sell it just like anyone else), but to do so you would need to invent a new type of experimental license, and it would be difficult to know how it would hold up in court. Just using the GPL is much simpler.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 10:26:36 am by remix »
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bcdev

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2016, 10:25:34 am »

He's not working for free. He claimed the exclusive right to copy and sell the Nxt software under another license, while doing this he took our right to copy and sell it under another license, away. He's building valuable software for himself, for the most part, while we finance it, test it, promote it.
Not true.
Code: [Select]
4. Re-licensing.

[b]Re-licensing of the Nxt software under a different license requires the
agreement of all copyright holders whose work is being re-licensed.[/b] To
ensure that an unreachable copyright holder cannot prevent the active
development team from making licensing decisions, each copyright holder
who leaves the development team shall provide an Nxt account number in
the AUTHORS.txt file, at which he can be contacted to discuss such
decisions. Lack of such contact info, or lack of any type of response to
a re-licensing permission request after more than 28 days, as recorded
in the Nxt blockchain, shall be interpreted as an irrevocable permission
to the then active development team to perform the specific re-licensing
for which such a permission has been sought.

AUTHORS.txt lists 12 names. None of them can simply relicense NXT without agreement from other devs.
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bcdev

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2016, 10:34:20 am »

Do you really think Nxt will be unable to find another quality program lead?
The real question is: Do you really think Nxt will be unable to find another quality program lead for free?
I'm sure there are at least 20 people on this forum that could replace Jean-Luc. How many of them are willing to work for free is a different story.
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Marc De Mesel

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2016, 10:36:16 am »

He's not working for free. He claimed the exclusive right to copy and sell the Nxt software under another license, while doing this he took our right to copy and sell it under another license, away. He's building valuable software for himself, for the most part, while we finance it, test it, promote it.
Not true.
Code: [Select]
4. Re-licensing.

[b]Re-licensing of the Nxt software under a different license requires the
agreement of all copyright holders whose work is being re-licensed.[/b] To
ensure that an unreachable copyright holder cannot prevent the active
development team from making licensing decisions, each copyright holder
who leaves the development team shall provide an Nxt account number in
the AUTHORS.txt file, at which he can be contacted to discuss such
decisions. Lack of such contact info, or lack of any type of response to
a re-licensing permission request after more than 28 days, as recorded
in the Nxt blockchain, shall be interpreted as an irrevocable permission
to the then active development team to perform the specific re-licensing
for which such a permission has been sought.

AUTHORS.txt lists 12 names. None of them can simply relicense NXT without agreement from other devs.

Sure there are more copyright holders, and it is good to see approval is needed from all, but let's see how this would go.

So one of the companies they are currently talking to is ready and wants to pay a contract worth $100k of payments in return for a private license and some support.

So they contact the 12 copyright holders and propose a payment of $5k on average per person, some more, some less depending on how much copyright they hold. And $40k left for Bas to continue working on finding more clients.


You think they will disagree? Or say 'what about the coinholders'?

Also note that they have zero obligation to us coinholders to inform us about any dealing done or made, nor the amounts of money earned this way.


How could we have let this happen as coinholders? To be so completely cut out of the dealings and proceeds of the Nxt software?  :-[


« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 10:45:45 am by Marc De Mesel »
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Marc De Mesel

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2016, 10:37:02 am »

Do you really think Nxt will be unable to find another quality program lead?
The real question is: Do you really think Nxt will be unable to find another quality program lead for free?
I'm sure there are at least 20 people on this forum that could replace Jean-Luc. How many of them are willing to work for free is a different story.

He's not working for free bcdev.

Please, wake up.

Marc De Mesel

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2016, 10:40:49 am »

How does this situation diminish us, coinholders?
Do you know of any situation like that, or is it just speculation?

What do you mean?

You are aware Bas is currently negotiating with different companies about selling them a private license?

Damelon

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2016, 10:50:23 am »

How does this situation diminish us, coinholders?
Do you know of any situation like that, or is it just speculation?

What do you mean?

You are aware Bas is currently negotiating with different companies about selling them a private license?

This is wrong on so many levels I am preparing a more comprehensive post to rebut your accusations.

Sorry Marc, but this is so way off the mark I cannot just let it stand.
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bcdev

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2016, 10:50:52 am »

Let's say a business buys a relicensed NXT software from core devs.
How does this situation diminish us? How does it hurt NXT as a whole?

Right now such situation suggests that developers are being paid, thus are willing to do more work without asking for donations. So it should be a good thing for coin holders.
Unless it's a sponsorship to implement evil features. AFAI understand 2.0 is evil in your opinion. I like 80% of Jean-Luc's vision of 2.0, so it's net positive IMO.
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Marc De Mesel

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Re: So you are afraid Jean-Luc would leave if you go against him?
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2016, 10:51:59 am »

He's not working for free. He claimed the exclusive right to copy and sell the Nxt software under another license, while doing this he took our right to copy and sell it under another license, away.

Under the GPL anyone can copy or sell the Nxt code. The GPL is considered legally valid. The stakeholders don't get rights to the software (they can modify or sell it just like anyone else), but to do so you would need to invent a new type of experimental license, and it would be difficult to know how it would hold up in court. Just using the GPL is much simpler.

Yes, but who can sell the Nxt code under a different license then GPL, a private license?

Only them.

Right?
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