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Author Topic: Public key for fresh accounts - this is a wrong decision.  (Read 30114 times)

Eadeqa

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Re: Public key for fresh accounts - this is a wrong decision.
« Reply #180 on: August 28, 2014, 05:12:19 pm »

Continuing to generate a new account for every order is wrong and should be considered a temporary fix only. This has been suggested in the past when there was no way to attach messages to transactions, but now a much better way is to have the customer attach the order number or some other reference id (that you give them at the time they place the order) as a message to the transaction.

You  absolutely do not understand the problem. You can't rely on your users that they will remember to attach reference ID. '

Who will be paying for the support calls for large percentage of users who will keep forgetting to attach a reference ID?



« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 05:19:02 pm by Eadeqa »
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Sebastien256

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Re: Public key for fresh accounts - this is a wrong decision.
« Reply #181 on: August 28, 2014, 05:18:41 pm »

Continuing to generate a new account for every order is wrong and should be considered a temporary fix only. This has been suggested in the past when there was no way to attach messages to transactions, but now a much better way is to have the customer attach the order number or some other reference id (that you give them at the time they place the order) as a message to the transaction.

You  absolutely do not understand the problem. You can't rely on your users that they will remember to attach reference ID. '

Who will be paying for the support call for large percentage of people who keep forgetting to attach a message?

I have to agree that you can't rely on customer to do that. Process should be user friendly without any possible way of error.
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Squeaker

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Re: Public key for fresh accounts - this is a wrong decision.
« Reply #182 on: August 28, 2014, 05:21:53 pm »

You  absolutely do not understand the problem. You can't rely on your users that they will remember to attach reference ID. '

Who will be paying for the support call for large percentage of people who keep forgetting to attach a message?
This is where I thought my idea of being able to designate your address as a vendor address, so the client _requires_ the user to include a reference number along with the address to send coin to.

Then, when some lazy sender tries to send coin to the address, without filling the "Reference:" field with a number, the send button stays greyed out until they do.

Won't stop them from sending to the wrong reference #, but it should take care of all of those "oh, damn, maybe I should have sent a message saying what the payment was for? oh well, too late now... they'll figure it out..." dweebs...

=squeak=
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unchi

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Re: Public key for fresh accounts - this is a wrong decision.
« Reply #183 on: August 28, 2014, 05:26:38 pm »

Can I ask a noob question?  Does this change encourage people to secure cold storage with the security of 128-bit?  Is this the reason the change was implemented? 
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 05:39:46 pm by unchi »
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sv3n

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Re: Public key for fresh accounts - this is a wrong decision.
« Reply #184 on: August 28, 2014, 05:28:41 pm »

Continuing to generate a new account for every order is wrong and should be considered a temporary fix only. This has been suggested in the past when there was no way to attach messages to transactions, but now a much better way is to have the customer attach the order number or some other reference id (that you give them at the time they place the order) as a message to the transaction.

You  absolutely do not understand the problem. You can't rely on your users that they will remember to attach reference ID. '

Who will be paying for the support call for large percentage of people who keep forgetting to attach a message?

I have to agree that you can't rely on customer to do that. Process should be user friendly without any possible way of error.
Absolutely agree. Can the merchants not just post public keys and we allow the client to convert to a NXT account number, so no core changes, but we've effectively switched to 128 bit accounts? This would be a small change I believe, unless I'm missing how the RS is calculated.

Edited for grammar.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 05:40:45 pm by sv3n »
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Eadeqa

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Re: Public key for fresh accounts - this is a wrong decision.
« Reply #185 on: August 28, 2014, 05:32:58 pm »

You  absolutely do not understand the problem. You can't rely on your users that they will remember to attach reference ID. '

Who will be paying for the support call for large percentage of people who keep forgetting to attach a message?

This is where I thought my idea of being able to designate your address as a vendor address, so the client _requires_ the user to include a reference number along with the address to send coin to.


Yes, this  will solve the problem. Either that or allow attaching reference ID to the deposit address, like this:

NXT-THLJ-CYAL-JQST-6FNS5/123

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ChuckOne

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Re: Public key for fresh accounts - this is a wrong decision.
« Reply #186 on: August 28, 2014, 05:41:03 pm »

Continuing to generate a new account for every order is wrong and should be considered a temporary fix only. This has been suggested in the past when there was no way to attach messages to transactions, but now a much better way is to have the customer attach the order number or some other reference id (that you give them at the time they place the order) as a message to the transaction.

You  absolutely do not understand the problem. You can't rely on your users that they will remember to attach reference ID. '

Who will be paying for the support calls for large percentage of users who will keep forgetting to attach a reference ID?


Still. What is the problem?

People had to fill the reference field long before Bitcoin came into existence. What is the damn difference to payments in the real world?
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ChuckOne

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Re: Public key for fresh accounts - this is a wrong decision.
« Reply #187 on: August 28, 2014, 05:41:54 pm »

You  absolutely do not understand the problem. You can't rely on your users that they will remember to attach reference ID. '

Who will be paying for the support call for large percentage of people who keep forgetting to attach a message?

This is where I thought my idea of being able to designate your address as a vendor address, so the client _requires_ the user to include a reference number along with the address to send coin to.


Yes, this  will solve the problem. Either that or allow attaching reference ID to the deposit address, like this:

NXT-THLJ-CYAL-JQST-6FNS5/123

Still this can be done in clients and should not be moved to the core. If client developers implement it because they find it useful, why not?
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Eadeqa

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Re: Public key for fresh accounts - this is a wrong decision.
« Reply #188 on: August 28, 2014, 05:51:43 pm »

Still. What is the problem?

People had to fill the reference field long before Bitcoin came into existence. What is the damn difference to payments in the real world?

People do not have to fill reference field when shopping online (ebay, amazon, bitcoin). It's not a paper where you fill some kind of form and have time to reflect,  and even then merchant has plenty of info from name and address to  deduce who made the payment.

The problem isn't only that people have to fill reference field. The problem is that you as a merchant can't rely on a system that requires your buyer to remember that they fill some field, or else you don't know who paid you and can't ship the item. Large percentage (I would say the percentage would be as high as 50% some weeks) will forget to enter reference field before clicking on "send".

Who the fuck will want to deal with that nonsense as a merchant? Have you ever been a merchant who sold things with crypto?  It's pain in the ass dealing with user errors. A system that relies on users to remember to enter reference field is worthless piece of shit.

Please stop posting stupid things.

« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 05:53:45 pm by Eadeqa »
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wesley

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Re: Public key for fresh accounts - this is a wrong decision.
« Reply #189 on: August 28, 2014, 05:52:10 pm »

You  absolutely do not understand the problem. You can't rely on your users that they will remember to attach reference ID. '

Who will be paying for the support call for large percentage of people who keep forgetting to attach a message?
This is where I thought my idea of being able to designate your address as a vendor address, so the client _requires_ the user to include a reference number along with the address to send coin to.

I like this idea too. In the mean time, the service provider should simply send back the money (minus the transaction fee) to the user, and include a message that he / she must add their order id.
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websioux

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Re: Public key for fresh accounts - this is a wrong decision.
« Reply #190 on: August 28, 2014, 05:55:29 pm »

From a business perspective, its better to have

"Please pay 125 nxt to NXT-DGML-DIN8-SSD9-SQ3DU#2625" or even better "to NXT-DGML-DIN8-SSD9-SQ3DU-2625"

than

"Please pay 125 nxt to NXT-DGML-DIN8-SSD9-SQ3DU
AND add 2625 as a message of the transaction."

Because it's only one easy copy and paste for the customer instead of two (address + reference).

The more you ask the lower your success rate, it's always like this, they have two chances to make a mistake instead of one
+ the faster the paiement the best because paiement is most of the time an impulsiv decision. It's really important to make it the easiest possible to limit business friction (=marketing costs).

Asking for sending the reference as a message is the same as doing a wire transfer thought the website of your bank account, can't we make it more fun as bitcoin does ?

Relying only on client software would be a solution if we could be sure that every client works the same !

So what is the real problem with implementing:
NXT-DGML-DIN8-SSD9-SQ3DUwhatever_comes_here_is_ignored_for_processing_but_available_for_merchant_who_watch_the_blockchain ?

an extra field in the database ?

Can't it be planned for the futur ?

I'm not in the hurry since I don't have a business runing with nxt right now, but I do care about Nxt futur.

So I'd like this to be discussed by core devs

I can understand core dev don't like it, but I hope they can understand how cool it would be for business owners.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 06:02:42 pm by websioux »
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Sebastien256

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Re: Public key for fresh accounts - this is a wrong decision.
« Reply #191 on: August 28, 2014, 05:57:21 pm »

that seem pragmatic as a solution ,the previosu post.
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valarmg

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Re: Public key for fresh accounts - this is a wrong decision.
« Reply #192 on: August 28, 2014, 06:03:57 pm »

Have to agree that Eadeqa is talking a lot of sense, and I've no idea why the devs won't consider it. It will make things easier for both users+businesses. Plus it will limit the need for new addresses. I've yet to see a disadvantage.

Getting users to enter reference numbers and sending the money back if they use the wrong reference is just creating an annoying workaround. Shouldn't making Nxt easy for businesses and users be a priority if we want Nxt to succeed?

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ChuckOne

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Re: Public key for fresh accounts - this is a wrong decision.
« Reply #193 on: August 28, 2014, 06:06:35 pm »

Damn, guys. What is so hard to understand about that? It is not required to be in the core.

Tell our fellow client developers to implement it and that is it.
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ChuckOne

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Re: Public key for fresh accounts - this is a wrong decision.
« Reply #194 on: August 28, 2014, 06:10:37 pm »

Have to agree that Eadeqa is talking a lot of sense, and I've no idea why the devs won't consider it. It will make things easier for both users+businesses. Plus it will limit the need for new addresses. I've yet to see a disadvantage.

Getting users to enter reference numbers and sending the money back if they use the wrong reference is just creating an annoying workaround. Shouldn't making Nxt easy for businesses and users be a priority if we want Nxt to succeed?

It is not an annoying workaround. It has worked 100 years or more before. (not sure if 100 is correct, but you get the point)
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_mr_e

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Re: Public key for fresh accounts - this is a wrong decision.
« Reply #195 on: August 28, 2014, 06:13:45 pm »

Have to agree that Eadeqa is talking a lot of sense, and I've no idea why the devs won't consider it. It will make things easier for both users+businesses. Plus it will limit the need for new addresses. I've yet to see a disadvantage.

Getting users to enter reference numbers and sending the money back if they use the wrong reference is just creating an annoying workaround. Shouldn't making Nxt easy for businesses and users be a priority if we want Nxt to succeed?

It is not an annoying workaround. It has worked 100 years or more before. (not sure if 100 is correct, but you get the point)

Well fiat has worked for even longer, maybe we should just all use that.
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ChuckOne

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Re: Public key for fresh accounts - this is a wrong decision.
« Reply #196 on: August 28, 2014, 06:15:14 pm »

Well fiat has worked for even longer, maybe we should just all use that.

Why?
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Eadeqa

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Re: Public key for fresh accounts - this is a wrong decision.
« Reply #197 on: August 28, 2014, 06:17:15 pm »

Have to agree that Eadeqa is talking a lot of sense, and I've no idea why the devs won't consider it. It will make things easier for both users+businesses. Plus it will limit the need for new addresses. I've yet to see a disadvantage.

Getting users to enter reference numbers and sending the money back if they use the wrong reference is just creating an annoying workaround. Shouldn't making Nxt easy for businesses and users be a priority if we want Nxt to succeed?

It is not an annoying workaround. It has worked 100 years or more before. (not sure if 100 is correct, but you get the point)

My problem isn't that it's annoying . My problem is that it's error-prone as it requires the user to remember to do something, or else you as a merchant has to deal with customer support.

I would be happy if it was just  annoying but error-proof.
 

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ChuckOne

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Re: Public key for fresh accounts - this is a wrong decision.
« Reply #198 on: August 28, 2014, 06:18:49 pm »

Have to agree that Eadeqa is talking a lot of sense, and I've no idea why the devs won't consider it. It will make things easier for both users+businesses. Plus it will limit the need for new addresses. I've yet to see a disadvantage.

Getting users to enter reference numbers and sending the money back if they use the wrong reference is just creating an annoying workaround. Shouldn't making Nxt easy for businesses and users be a priority if we want Nxt to succeed?

It is not an annoying workaround. It has worked 100 years or more before. (not sure if 100 is correct, but you get the point)

My problem isn't that it's annoying . My problem is that it's error-prone as it requires the user to remember to do something, or else you as a merchant has to deal with customer support.

I would be happy if it was just  annoying but error-proof.

Good. The solution is here.

Damn, guys. What is so hard to understand about that? It is not required to be in the core.

Tell our fellow client developers to implement it and that is it.

Reach out to them and let us get started here.
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toenu

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Re: Public key for fresh accounts - this is a wrong decision.
« Reply #199 on: August 28, 2014, 06:20:41 pm »


Why not implement nxt:// URI scheme so any exchange or seller etc can create URIs like this:

nxt://send?account=NXT-DGML-DIN8-SSD9-SQ3DU&amount=1&message=<orderid>

This solves the usability issue and does not need any core change.
The client can prefill the form with values from URI, the user only needs to enter passphrase and hit send. It doesn't get easier than clicking a link and entering a passphrase to perform a transaction.
If it can be implemented for windows, linux and mac users will be happy.

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