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Author Topic: Protocol for new feature implementation and significant changes in NXT core.  (Read 13974 times)

Brangdon

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oh my god, coin shuffling... are you guys serious?
damn. the situation looks very sad to me at the moment.
Are you against coin shuffling? It's kinda ironic that that is the only feature that did get voted in for NXT.
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coinomat

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If the current API changes would have been announced in advance we wouldn't have Supernet leaving NXT.
Protocol would be:
- changes are announced
- if there are objections - there's voting, no objections - no voting. All interested parties have time to state their position.

I don't know why salaries is such a sensitive topic. TNNSSE has no issues discussing their salaries.
You're working for the community (at least I hope you perceive it this way) and the community has to give back to you.

TWO QUESTIONS to the devs once again:
1. Would you agree to announce features before the release? Would you let people vote on them and accept the voting result?
2. Do you want a community fund to pay you salaries?

two extremely simple questions. Please reply.

1. As far as I recall features are already announced well in advance. Are you are suggesting to bring each and every minor feature in the product roadmap for community vote ? can't promise that. We can certainly bring up certain decisions for community voting.
2. A community fund already pays devs salaries. I think this is not the place to discuss devs salaries. Let's take this offline. We can talk on skype or discuss by email. PM me.
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Riker

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If the current API changes would have been announced in advance we wouldn't have Supernet leaving NXT.

Not sure but we can't do much about it now anyway.

Quote
Protocol would be:
- changes are announced
- if there are objections - there's voting, no objections - no voting. All interested parties have time to state their position.

Sounds good, we can practice this for the 1.8.x release since 1.7.x is now pretty much feature complete.

Quote
I don't know why salaries is such a sensitive topic. TNNSSE has no issues discussing their salaries.
You're working for the community (at least I hope you perceive it this way) and the community has to give back to you.

Compensation is always a sensitive issue. I don't think this is the place to discuss it.
If you like to discuss salaries PM me, damelon or evildave.
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Arkh

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@Riker

( you posted an apology while I was typing this but I'll still post it for clarity )

Any chances that you guys publish an announcement in the name of the core team regarding this situation. With apologies to 3rd party devs to the already acknoledged issues, and an acknowledgement that you're commited to follow new guidelines as stated in this thread.

I know this has been done already with evildave's post but I think it is important that such things comes straight from the dev team and that it's made clear to public. I am sure that you'll do a great job as a project manager for the core dev team and you're not responsible for those issues. But I think such an announcement will be a good start to show to the community that you're driving the core dev team to the right direction and that you will be able to make them follow the new guidelines in the future using your management skills.

Regards,

Arkh
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Damelon

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Glad this is moving :)

In times like these it's enormously tempting to want to have solutions NOW.
I am glad we are building towards one.

Let's keep at it and figure out a way out of this mess. :)

If TNSSE can help, let us know.
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Cassius

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Good to see there is somewhere that constructive discussion is happening! Thanks coinomat for kicking it off. Riker, good to see you here too.

In passing - I think coinshuffling will be important in the future. Imagine if you could trace every payment between a competitor and their customers, clients, suppliers, consultants, employees... Hello Industrial Espionage. Equally, though, transparent payments where appropriate are also hugely important. So I very much like optional coinshuffling.

I don't know where the SuperNET / Nxt relationship will end up as a result of all this, and that is very sad, but I sincerely hope that the situation that blew up in the past few days can be avoided again.

And seriously, are the TNSSE guys supposed to work for nothing? Money was raised for their salaries, amongst other things. It didn't come as a surprise to anyone who read OP that they were going to 'pay themselves'.
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coinomat

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If the current API changes would have been announced in advance we wouldn't have Supernet leaving NXT.

Not sure but we can't do much about it now anyway.

Quote
Protocol would be:
- changes are announced
- if there are objections - there's voting, no objections - no voting. All interested parties have time to state their position.

Sounds good, we can practice this for the 1.8.x release since 1.7.x is now pretty much feature complete.

Quote
I don't know why salaries is such a sensitive topic. TNNSSE has no issues discussing their salaries.
You're working for the community (at least I hope you perceive it this way) and the community has to give back to you.

Compensation is always a sensitive issue. I don't think this is the place to discuss it.
If you like to discuss salaries PM me, damelon or evildave.
You know the salaries question and question about new releases are somehow connected. But of course let's discuss this privately. Somehow it will have to be made public though, at least the general outline.

If you could solve the current issue with James  it would show your good will and that you care about NXT ecosystem.
The timing of this FUD is very unfortunate.
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Damelon

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By the way, my thoughts regarding coinshuffling and any features that were decided in the past:

Let's make this about any future decisions.

If we start making this about feature decisions that are already made and have been worked on hard for months now, we are opening a can of worms we don't want to.

Then we get a seperate debate about every feature that is being worked on for 1.7 and we can probably forget about it happening in the first place.

The logical thing to do when making a new procedure is to let the procedure be contingent on things in the future.

Just putting this in because the discussion is forking right now into these seperate issues.  :)
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coinomat

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By the way, my thoughts regarding coinshuffling and any features that were decided in the past:

Let's make this about any future decisions.

If we start making this about feature decisions that are already made and have been worked on hard for months now, we are opening a can of worms we don't want to.

Then we get a seperate debate about every feature that is being worked on for 1.7 and we can probably forget about it happening in the first place.

The logical thing to do when making a new procedure is to let the procedure be contingent on things in the future.

Just putting this in because the discussion is forking right now into these seperate issues.  :)
I think coinshuffling will damage NXT a great deal
But let's discuss it in another thread.
let's focus on current developments, shuffling is a matter of a rather distant future.
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Jean-Luc

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I think coinshuffling will damage NXT a great deal
But let's discuss it in another thread.
let's focus on current developments, shuffling is a matter of a rather distant future.
Coin shuffling is not distant future, it is in 1.7. And it is not even current development, for me it is already past development, I have no work to do on it anymore - the server side implementation of it is fully done, tested, and reviewed. We are only waiting for the UI to be completed.
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yassin54

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Thanks @Jean-Luc take the time to respond to our questions (Community)  ;)
I hope to see you more active  :D
despite your enormous work  ;)

coinomat

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I think coinshuffling will damage NXT a great deal
But let's discuss it in another thread.
let's focus on current developments, shuffling is a matter of a rather distant future.
Coin shuffling is not distant future, it is in 1.7. And it is not even current development, for me it is already past development, I have no work to do on it anymore - the server side implementation of it is fully done, tested, and reviewed. We are only waiting for the UI to be completed.

The sky is falling.
Thank you for this, indeed
current situation is an eye-opener for me.
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wesley

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btw, I do believe coin shuffling has been voted on before. Correct me if I'm wrong. So the sky is not falling. It's what the people want.
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Sebastien256

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btw, I do believe coin shuffling has been voted on before. Correct me if I'm wrong. So the sky is not falling. It's what the people want.
It has been vote:
https://nxtportal.org/polls/2751730409036026521

@coinomat
Why you say the sky is falling?
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coinomat

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btw, I do believe coin shuffling has been voted on before. Correct me if I'm wrong. So the sky is not falling. It's what the people want.
It has been vote:
https://nxtportal.org/polls/2751730409036026521

@coinomat
Why you say the sky is falling?
Coin shuffling will be the end of NXT as a legitimate (at least potentially) financial platform
have fun with Silkroads guys. If it's what you want.
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dude

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Coin shuffling will be the end of NXT as a legitimate (at least potentially) financial platform
have fun with Silkroads guys. If it's what you want.

Care to explain what do you mean by this?

Lack of fungibility is one of the problems Bitcoin has and Nxt is trying to solve it with coin shuffling. Fungibility is also one of the main properties of a proper currency.
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Sebastien256

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Coin shuffling will be the end of NXT as a legitimate (at least potentially) financial platform
have fun with Silkroads guys. If it's what you want.

Care to explain what do you mean by this?

Lack of fungibility is one of the problems Bitcoin has and Nxt is trying to solve it with coin shuffling. Fungibility is also one of the main properties of a proper currency.

What fungibility has to do with coinsuffling? I don't understand.
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coinomat

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Coin shuffling will be the end of NXT as a legitimate (at least potentially) financial platform
have fun with Silkroads guys. If it's what you want.

Care to explain what do you mean by this?

Lack of fungibility is one of the problems Bitcoin has and Nxt is trying to solve it with coin shuffling. Fungibility is also one of the main properties of a proper currency.

NXT is a smart property platform in the first place
smart property + coin shuffling = money laundering :)

People try to force all possible features onto NXT, instead of focusing on killer features (AE)

I can start another thread about this, let's discuss the NXT development process here
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lurker10

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smart property + coin shuffling = financial privacy.

there, fixed it for ya.
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MrCluster87

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Hi Audo,

I like your proposal. Can we use your post to write an article to be published on Nxter.org focused to developers (current or new) which are going to use Nxt as a platform? In order to explain the current issue.

Thanks

Disclaimer: I'm by no means an expert nor a dev. After following the discussion I have learned a thing or two, and through Coinomat's idea got the inspiration to write this post.

As I have understood this issue, there are two general interests that are clashing:

1) The Development side [development is the priority]
"We want to continue to develop this platform further in order to gain competitive adventage. Thus we must be able to push the development forward by breaking the backward compatability from time to time. We are still a small scale project, and we must agressively innovate. Mass adoption will come later once we have a truly superior product."

2) The Business side [adoption is the priority]
"Adoption is key for the success of the platform, thus we need to maintain backward compatability and accept slower development cycle. We already have the most developed platform, it's time to get organic growth from external businesses migrating into NXT. If we don't move now, we might be left to dust by less developed, but more business friendly platform. We need to create a network effect."

At the end of the day, we need adoption. We won't be seen as a leading crypto platform unless there are people using it. There has to be a plan about how we transfrom from early stage experimental technology into a stable business platform.



We all want NXT to become a stable and established platform. We want NXT to be seen as the leading 2.0 crypto. At this point we need both, 1) to continue NXT core development, 2) to maintain a stable business adaptation.

For businesses to come and stay in NXT, they need a stable environment and clear expectations. In order to provide that we need to estamblish written guidelines and protocols. We must communicate to the businesses, that this platform is still being developed, and there will be possibler API changes. However, the NXT development team also aknowledges that we are moving towards more stable development phase, and the business interest need to be taken into account. We need to reach a consensus how those major updates are published.

The more time passes, the slower the development will get. The more carefull the NXT core develoment must be. Making assumptions is seen as unprofessinal.
  - BTS assumed that exchanges were aware about the 2.0 transofrmation – UNPROFESSIONAL
  - NXT assumed that businesses knew that API might break in new version and that they will carefully go through change logs – UNPROFESSIONAL

For NXT to be seen as professional, we must aknowledge some things.

We are going through a crisis and this crisis is an opportunity for NXT to be seen as a professional platform. There will always be crisis, the question is, can we solve them? If we cannot solve this problem, then how could we solve any future problems? If we fail now, the conclusion will be that NXT is unable to survive any future crisis either. We would be seen as a immature amateurs. However, if we go through this, aknowledge the problems, and fix them, we will be born again from the ashes like the Fenix bird!

We need a long term roadmap to become a estamblished and stable financial platform. In that roadmap, the NXT core devs need to aknowledge, that the development is going to slow down in the coming years. The old days of rapid development are over, and we are moving forwards. It doesn't mean that there will be no development, but rather that it will be bound by new guidelines and protocols.

We must take adoption as our number one goal. Adoption has always been the end goal, but today we must aknowledge that it has become our primary goal. That goal goes hand in hand with the Tennessee project as well. NXT devs have to include major businesses to the decision making.

We must rethink how the devs get paid. We are a decentralized platform, but our developers get paid from one source. The money streams must be decentralized! Thus we should set up a Business Fund Committee (BFC) like Coinomat has proposed.



CFC – Protects the interests of community
BFC – Protects the interests of businesses

DEV Fund should have
 - Open communication channel to businesses (CFC)
 - Open communication channel to community (BFC)
 - Email list for updates
 - Detailed API documentation, etc.
 - Written guildelines / protocol for development, that is accepted by both CFC and BFC.

The NXT developers are building a product, the NXT platform… Businesses are the clients who are using that product. It's natural that the money flows from clients to the business development, in this case from BFC to DEV Fund. The money stream is a feedback mechanism itself. If a business is unhappy that their needs are not being met they can make a cut to the donations.

CFC looks to the interest of ordinary individuals, who are using the platform. As as end user, they don't want businesses to be able to dictate what is being developed. Privacy and security  is the primary concern for them. Community has the option to use voting in order to come to consensus.

As we are a decentralized platform, the funding should be more decentralized as well. There should be absolute transparancy in funding, development roadmap, and development guidelines.

I think no party should be able to dictate another. Perhaps its the best to keep the development independend. CFC, BFC and DEV Fund would have equal say, consensus is archieved through discussion among the parties. Discussions and resolutions should be always documented. However, the NXT devs can never go against something that has already been agreed on! If there is a written contract, that no new API for 6 months, then they cannot do it. By not breaking their own rules, they will generate trust.

I'm sure this thing can be developed further. Hopefully this long essay gives some inspiration to find a solution. I ask everyone to really take a step back and think about the long term plan.

This crisis is an opportunity and maybe the best thing that has happened. In the future this could be seen as a major break through and a turning point.
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