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Protocol for new feature implementation and significant changes in NXT core.
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Author Topic: Protocol for new feature implementation and significant changes in NXT core.  (Read 13961 times)

Sebastien256

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They don't seem to listen to objections, this is the problem

Maybe they should appoint someone to listen to objection. Someone designate to manage objections.
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Brangdon

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Please read my proposal carefully
especially regarding payments
You think the devs should be paid, but you aren't going to provide all the cash needed yourself. Did you not see how hard it was for the Tennessee project to raise some funds? And at least 30% of what they did raise came from the devs themselves. They obviously love Nxt. Replacing that love with money won't work. More money would be good, of course, but you need to be careful how you adjust the internal and external motivations.

- They say: in 1.7.xx release we plan so-and-so
- there are objections
- a poll is set up
- people vote

what could be wrong about that?
The features are going to be a combination of (a) technical needs; and (b) what they feel like working on next. Neither is subject to a popular vote. Voting should be a last resort, for when even after extensive discussion there is no technical consensus. If you've been reading the threads, you'll appreciate how resistant the devs are to voting on the current issue. Jean-Luc clearly feels that the 1.6 changes were the right changes to make, even taking backwards compatibility needs into account. The mistakes were in how those changes were communicated. I'm pretty sure that by "communication" he means from the devs to us, not us telling him what changes we want.
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coinomat

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Please read my proposal carefully
especially regarding payments
You think the devs should be paid, but you aren't going to provide all the cash needed yourself. Did you not see how hard it was for the Tennessee project to raise some funds? And at least 30% of what they did raise came from the devs themselves. They obviously love Nxt. Replacing that love with money won't work. More money would be good, of course, but you need to be careful how you adjust the internal and external motivations.

- They say: in 1.7.xx release we plan so-and-so
- there are objections
- a poll is set up
- people vote

what could be wrong about that?
The features are going to be a combination of (a) technical needs; and (b) what they feel like working on next. Neither is subject to a popular vote. Voting should be a last resort, for when even after extensive discussion there is no technical consensus. If you've been reading the threads, you'll appreciate how resistant the devs are to voting on the current issue. Jean-Luc clearly feels that the 1.6 changes were the right changes to make, even taking backwards compatibility needs into account. The mistakes were in how those changes were communicated. I'm pretty sure that by "communication" he means from the devs to us, not us telling him what changes we want.
I will pledge a significant amount.
do you think there won't be any other businesses to help out?
Current changes in 1.6 would obviously break Supernet.
Is it really needed? are you sure ? :)
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Seccour

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Please read my proposal carefully
especially regarding payments
You think the devs should be paid, but you aren't going to provide all the cash needed yourself. Did you not see how hard it was for the Tennessee project to raise some funds? And at least 30% of what they did raise came from the devs themselves. They obviously love Nxt. Replacing that love with money won't work. More money would be good, of course, but you need to be careful how you adjust the internal and external motivations.

- They say: in 1.7.xx release we plan so-and-so
- there are objections
- a poll is set up
- people vote

what could be wrong about that?
The features are going to be a combination of (a) technical needs; and (b) what they feel like working on next. Neither is subject to a popular vote. Voting should be a last resort, for when even after extensive discussion there is no technical consensus. If you've been reading the threads, you'll appreciate how resistant the devs are to voting on the current issue. Jean-Luc clearly feels that the 1.6 changes were the right changes to make, even taking backwards compatibility needs into account. The mistakes were in how those changes were communicated. I'm pretty sure that by "communication" he means from the devs to us, not us telling him what changes we want.
I will pledge a significant amount.
do you think there won't be any other businesses to help out?
Current changes in 1.6 would obviously break Supernet.
Is it really needed? are you sure ? :)

Supernet can ignore 1.6.2 nodes. And they have time to deal with the changes until the 1.7 hard fork
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Damelon

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Guys, can you try to subscribe here: http://nxt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nrs-development

We think an oldskool mailing list might work, because it allows people not just from the forums, but also other places to have a look and connect, like exchanges etc.

The software is rather ugly, but a mailing list is mainly for the content, so we think it might be a good idea.

If there are better ideas on how to implement such, please let us know. The forums are not totally perfect for this, so we are looking for a solution that will enable us to have as broad a palette of stakeholders involved in the dev process. :)
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wesley

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I'd like to know how supernet can ignore fake data fed by fake nodes? How is data verified/trusted?
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saladin89

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It seems like the major issue here is changes to the core that effect businesses here: https://nxtforum.org/nrs-releases/nrs-v1-6-2/msg199227/#msg199227

I can now really understand why the business side of nxt wants more say in the process. the coredevs have to respect the userspace.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2015, 07:07:38 pm by saladin89 »
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Riker

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I'd like to know how supernet can ignore fake data fed by fake nodes? How is data verified/trusted?

Wesley ? I thought I've seen a ghost ...
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Brangdon

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I will pledge a significant amount.
do you think there won't be any other businesses to help out?
I think raising money is hard.

Quote
Current changes in 1.6 would obviously break Supernet.
Is it really needed? are you sure ? :)
It's not what I would have done, but I have read what Jean-Luc has written on the matter and his views seem pretty clear.

What's not clear at the moment is what jl777 now thinks, because I've not seen anything from him for a while.
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Riker

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Folks, if you like to ask me something I'm here for the next 90 minutes. Must admit I haven't read all this yet, from briefly looking at the messages, there are some interesting ideas.
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Arkh

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Folks, if you like to ask me something I'm here for the next 90 minutes. Must admit I haven't read all this yet, from briefly looking at the messages, there are some interesting ideas.

Hi,

I posted my opinion on the 1st page of this thread,

what do you think about it ?

Any chances you can convince the core dev team to allow the old calls to coexist with the new ones until 1.7 ?

Regards,

Arkh
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farl4bit

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Guys, can you try to subscribe here: http://nxt.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nrs-development

We think an oldskool mailing list might work, because it allows people not just from the forums, but also other places to have a look and connect, like exchanges etc.

The software is rather ugly, but a mailing list is mainly for the content, so we think it might be a good idea.

That software is so ugly, that it is cool again.  :o
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Riker

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This crisis is an opportunity and maybe the best thing that has happened. In the future this could be seen as a major break through and a turning point.

@Audo - very nice post.
@coinomat - thanks for kicking off this discussion

Set aside recent events (please don't get back to the 1.6.3 issue please ...)

We are indeed in the process of moving towards a more business friendly platform. We had a lot of discussions about it, out of these discussions came the Tennessee project and following the success of the fund raising, I accepted the role of a project manager.
In my view, we have now a strong dev team (jean-luc, myself and others) and an excellent business team (Damelon, EvilDave and many others) working closely together and consulting frequently.
In a couple of month, touch wood, we will release version 1.7 which would address some of the fundamental problems of the existing platform (block time stability, forgers bias) and will introduce innovative features, which are light years ahead of any other protocol, like coin shuffling which is an extremely important building block for any crypto protocol, account control and properties (see roadmap).
In addition we are constantly working based on your feedback, see: https://nxtforum.org/general/list-of-feature-request-for-nrs/ and we will continue to do so.
Can we do better ? Sure
Are we willing to learn ? Of course
Should we all work together ? Absolutely
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Riker

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About API changes :

Here is how it SHOULD work (that's almost a convention between devs... )

If it is needed to change an API call ( except for a security breach ) you DEPRECATE the old call, which means that it can still be used but will display a warning that it is gonna be deleted soon. Then you ADD the new call so both can co-exist for a while.

The purpose of that is to satisfy everybody : 1. the API devs can go forward and improve the API as they will 2. The API won't break for 3rd party devs and will provide them with warnings on soon to be deleted calls.

For the timeframe of that proposition, I would propose that for example for an API call change, introduced in 1.6.X the call will be deprecated until 1.7 hard fork then it will be deleted.  Letting 3rd party enough time to adapt.

In general the process you describe is the appropriate process for API changes and we will do our best to follow it in the future.
However there is no way to turn the wheel now, and these API changes that triggered all the mayhem are minimal.
See posts from jean-luc which explains the issue in the 1.6.2 thread and judge for yourself.
In retrospect, when faced with the same problem of adapting the NXT wallet to these API changes the work took a short time and no regression problems were observed.

Quote
I am also volunteer to help fixing this operational issue.

Great PM me and let's see how we can put your skills to work

Quote
I also kinda agree with coinomat's idea about voting on the features before they are realized but I am worried about that it will slow down the dev processes and that a very few people have a sufficient technical knowledge to be able to vote.

Regards,

Arkh

Going forward we intend to open important design decisions for community feedback, when it makes sense and after we workout an appropriate procedure for this.
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Hachoir

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Folks, if you like to ask me something I'm here for the next 90 minutes. Must admit I haven't read all this yet, from briefly looking at the messages, there are some interesting ideas.

Hi,

I posted my opinion on the 1st page of this thread,

what do you think about it ?

Any chances you can convince the core dev team to allow the old calls to coexist with the new ones until 1.7 ?

Regards,

Arkh

No, this was answered already. Jean-Luc made a mistake by not making clear enough what would be the consequences of the changes in the latest version, measures have been taken so that it won't happen again. Now why would projects not update ? What do developers do when a major android version is released, don't they update their app to make it compatible ? Too many fuss has been made about it, mainly caused by jl777 whining. Update and move on. That case is closed.
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coinomat

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oh my god, coin shuffling... are you guys serious?
damn. the situation looks very sad to me at the moment.
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Sebastien256

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oh my god, coin shuffling... are you guys serious?
damn. the situation looks very sad to me at the moment.

coinsuffling is optional.
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coinomat

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TWO QUESTIONS to the devs once again:
1. Would you agree to announce features before the release? Would you let people vote on them and accept the voting result?
2. Do you want a community fund to pay you salaries?

two extremely simple questions. Please reply.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2015, 12:35:22 am by coinomat »
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Riker

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TWO QUESTIONS to the devs once again:
1. Would you agree to announce features before the release? Would you let people vote on them and accept the voting result?
2. Do you want a community fund to pay you salaries?

two extremely simple questions. Please reply.

1. As far as I recall features are already announced well in advance. Are you are suggesting to bring each and every minor feature in the product roadmap for community vote ? can't promise that. We can certainly bring up certain decisions for community voting.
2. A community fund already pays devs salaries. I think this is not the place to discuss devs salaries. Let's take this offline. We can talk on skype or discuss by email. PM me.
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Riker

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oh my god, coin shuffling... are you guys serious?
damn. the situation looks very sad to me at the moment.

Coin Shuffling has been partially implemented on November last year, since we did not consider it critical at this time, it waited almost a year to get into an official release.
Do not underestimate the importance of this feature. 10 years from now, when businesses pay employees and suppliers in Crypto this would be a mandatory tool, working silently under the hoods to annonymize payments. In the short term it can attract security driven users. Being the first to implement this feature on a decentralized network is a huge technical achievement and a proof of the superiority of the NXT technology.
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