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Price speculation
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Author Topic: Price speculation  (Read 3069917 times)

box1413

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #29000 on: January 29, 2018, 05:12:56 am »

anyone has experience with hitbtc and withdrawal issues?
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Brangdon

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #29001 on: January 29, 2018, 11:36:42 am »

"So, you mean they are too high?" - no, I mean that decentralized blockchain is centrally managed by some company; otherwise fees table would be placed in configuration file, anybody would be able to modify it and network (nodes) would not reject transactions with a different fee (that this defined in node's configuration file).

You are correct.  Right now, Jelurida are the only people coding for Ardor and they have chosen to have the fees fixed.  I also agree that high fees will inhibit people from using the blockchain but I also know that they know that too.  I am certain (as I can be) that Jelurida will eventually code a change that allows each forger to set their own fee schedule.
The Ignis fees aren't high. They are 0.01 IGNIS, plus bundler rate. The ARDR fees are high for good reason - because Ardor transactions can't be pruned and we want to discourage people from using them. Allowing each forger to set their own fees doesn't make a lot of sense to me, because the transactions need to be broadcast, processed and stored by all full nodes, not just the node that forges the block. So everyone needs to agree on what the fees are. I think if Jelurida intended to allow a user-defined minimum fee, they would have done so long ago.

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The worst thing that I can see from that would be the malicious forger that deliberately sets their fees so high that no transactions are ever included in their blocks, essentially pausing the blockchain during those blocks.
The worst thing is someone setting the fees to zero, accepting bloat into the blockchain that every full node has to store forever.

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I'm no coder.  Is Ardor completely open sourced yet?
The source code of the current version is available under Jelurida's licence, which isn't technically open source but is close enough for what we want here. Source for future versions that Jelurida are still working on isn't made public in advance.

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If it is, then any motivated coder could modify the code to allow the setting of fees and offer the updated version to the community much in the same way Jelurida does.  I'm not even certain that would require a hard fork, but I think it wouldn't.
Lowering fees requires a hard fork. Other nodes will reject blocks with transactions that have a lower fee than they accept. The first such block makes a fork.
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ChuckOne

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #29002 on: January 29, 2018, 06:08:12 pm »

"So, you mean they are too high?" - no, I mean that decentralized blockchain is centrally managed by some company; otherwise fees table would be placed in configuration file, anybody would be able to modify it and network (nodes) would not reject transactions with a different fee (that this defined in node's configuration file).

Now, I see where you are coming from. Well, that's not exactly true. You're free to change the source code (instead of a config file) in order to change things if you don't like the default settings. However, the network still decides whether or not they reject your proposed fees.
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ChuckOne

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #29003 on: January 29, 2018, 06:09:12 pm »

anyone has experience with hitbtc and withdrawal issues?

worked fine in the past
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Pouncer

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #29004 on: January 29, 2018, 09:22:51 pm »

"So, you mean they are too high?" - no, I mean that decentralized blockchain is centrally managed by some company; otherwise fees table would be placed in configuration file, anybody would be able to modify it and network (nodes) would not reject transactions with a different fee (that this defined in node's configuration file).

Now, I see where you are coming from. Well, that's not exactly true. You're free to change the source code (instead of a config file) in order to change things if you don't like the default settings. However, the network still decides whether or not they reject your proposed fees.


Does this violate the JPL license? ie would this constitute a fork and whoever did that would have to allocate that 10% thing?
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ChuckOne

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #29005 on: January 29, 2018, 10:00:41 pm »

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Now, I see where you are coming from. Well, that's not exactly true. You're free to change the source code (instead of a config file) in order to change things if you don't like the default settings. However, the network still decides whether or not they reject your proposed fees.

Does this violate the JPL license? ie would this constitute a fork and whoever did that would have to allocate that 10% thing?

No.

In fact, black-hats do use modified blockchain clients in order to game the system. If the p2p system accepts blocks and transactions, there's no fork, but a system which has been gamed on and where users of non-modified clients might not have enjoyed some irregular benefits.

Soft forks must be resolved by the consensus otherwise the technology is worthless.

Besides, it's still the p2p network which decides to use which clients. And if the Jelurida client isn't good enought, if Jelurida fails their social contracts, if the Jelurida client is broken, the network might choose an alternative.


Jelurida cannot just say those few blocks of the blockchain we like it so much better.

It would reduce the Ardor PoS consensus to absurdity.

That's the very nature of cryptoplatforms. Anything else would be better served by a centrally managed webservice.


The only thing, Jelurida can do is to provide a better client with each release, to be full of integrity, to serve their social contracts, don't get compromised etc. If and only if that holds, the network will follow. Until now, and from what I can see, there were nothing that jeopardized the integrity and trustworthiness of any core developers so far. Be it Jean-Luc, Weasley, Riker, now Jelurida and whatever there will be in the future.


About hardforks with trademarks changes: well, that's a different thing especially when it's just a copycat and in that regard it see this 10% airdrop a good protection against this kind of personal gain. But still, if the majority of Ardors (literally the population of the p2p) decides to follow an alternative for very good reasons, the most likely one would be, Jelurida failed the most basic crypto standards (cf. above).
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rubenaco

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #29006 on: January 29, 2018, 10:19:32 pm »

Brangdon

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #29007 on: January 30, 2018, 08:05:34 pm »

"So, you mean they are too high?" - no, I mean that decentralized blockchain is centrally managed by some company; otherwise fees table would be placed in configuration file, anybody would be able to modify it and network (nodes) would not reject transactions with a different fee (that this defined in node's configuration file).

Now, I see where you are coming from. Well, that's not exactly true. You're free to change the source code (instead of a config file) in order to change things if you don't like the default settings. However, the network still decides whether or not they reject your proposed fees.


Does this violate the JPL license? ie would this constitute a fork and whoever did that would have to allocate that 10% thing?
In addition to what ChuckOne says, they'd effectively be allocating 100%, and that would satisfy the requirement to allocate 10%. Think about it. Everyone who held ARDR in Jelurida's fork would hold the same ARDR in the low-fees fork. Same with all the child chains. This is because both sides of the fork use the same account passphrases, have the same histories up to the fork and so the same balances. The 10% allocation is an issue when someone creates a whole new genesis block.
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Right.Here

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #29008 on: February 02, 2018, 12:23:31 am »

Hi all  :D

BTC, NXT, ARDR, IGNIS, seem in way to the trash lands  :(
some marketing actions and efforts are needed in times like this to counter the dumping...
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neofelis

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #29009 on: February 02, 2018, 01:24:16 am »

This was expected.  Time to start buying. The more people sell, the broader the distribution gets - which stabilizes the currency.
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rubenaco

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neofelis

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #29011 on: February 06, 2018, 02:18:12 am »

Ardor is falling along with all of crypto, but are there any flaws in Ardor's code?  Nope.  In fact, as more people discover crypto, they will learn about blockchain bloat and that will lead them to Ardor.  Now is the time to start buying, just a little every month.  Ardor will never die as long as people keep the blockchain alive and right now it is on the precipice ready to rise again.  It WILL rise again.  That is the nature of crypto.  I promise you that when it does, you will regret not buying more.  I remember buying Ardor when it was <$0.02.  I could get almost 5K Ardor for a $100 investment and I did this monthly. 
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SwissAlps

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #29012 on: February 06, 2018, 08:15:39 am »

Ardor is falling along with all of crypto, but are there any flaws in Ardor's code?  Nope.  In fact, as more people discover crypto, they will learn about blockchain bloat and that will lead them to Ardor.  Now is the time to start buying, just a little every month.  Ardor will never die as long as people keep the blockchain alive and right now it is on the precipice ready to rise again.  It WILL rise again.  That is the nature of crypto.  I promise you that when it does, you will regret not buying more.  I remember buying Ardor when it was <$0.02.  I could get almost 5K Ardor for a $100 investment and I did this monthly.
Very true, we are here since a few years now and we all know that it doesn't make sense to register a single transaction between two local Chinese friends into a single blockchain that has to be stored and processed by two SouthAfricans neighbours before they can do the same... (change the countries as you wish ;)...)

And we don't speak about the war between PoW and PoS... ;D   (what a waste!)
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ChuckOne

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #29013 on: February 09, 2018, 04:36:05 pm »

In fact, as more people discover crypto, they will learn about blockchain bloat and that will lead them to Ardor.

Not necessarily. Somebody needs to tell them first.

We need people to get out of their comfort-zone to do this; preferably now. (Going to do a talk including Ardor in March btw.)
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kermitas

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #29014 on: February 10, 2018, 10:19:21 am »

...but are there any flaws in Ardor's code?  Nope.
I didn't check Java code more in depth because after that (taken form my this post) I am afraid that I could discover more mess / bad practices / anti-patterns.
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neofelis

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #29015 on: February 10, 2018, 02:31:10 pm »

In fact, as more people discover crypto, they will learn about blockchain bloat and that will lead them to Ardor.

Not necessarily. Somebody needs to tell them first.

We need people to get out of their comfort-zone to do this; preferably now. (Going to do a talk including Ardor in March btw.)

Very true.  I'm doing my part and I suppose Jelurida is as well.  This platform is way more advanced (and valuable) than when Come-From-Beyond and BCNext were running the show, so I have to believe Jelurida has the long term health of Ardor in mind always. 

As with anything crypto, I am prepared to lose it all.  Wanna watch crypto nose dive big time?  Just have the US Government make it a crime to run a node or use crypto for any transaction.  One of these days some government somewhere is going to get scared and try that (Iceland?).  They'll tout it as a public health hazard like drugs and use that as an excuse.  Crypto threatens power.
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mthcl

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #29016 on: February 11, 2018, 12:32:27 am »

...  when Come-From-Beyond and BCNext were running the show ...

this "and" sounds interesting   ;)
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ron

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #29017 on: February 11, 2018, 09:04:33 am »

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rubenaco

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #29018 on: February 12, 2018, 11:07:18 pm »

neofelis

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #29019 on: February 14, 2018, 03:22:22 pm »

I use Poloniex but they are not allowing Ardor deposits or withdrawals right now, annoying.  Bittrex also works but they aren't accepting new accounts.  I think there are so many people getting into crypto that it is overloading the exchanges right now.  We'll have to wait things out for now.
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