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maddy83

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #26520 on: February 10, 2016, 01:57:06 pm »

I don't see any proof that a "decentralized" community is a particularly efficient organization for developing and managing a crypto.

I also don't see that the market values a crypto very highly because it is "decentralized". I see the opposite (Ethereum and Ripple at the top of coinmarketcap).

The argument that "decentralized is better, but people are too stupid to realize it" has run its course. You can only go so long with idealistic arguments that no-one cares about in the real world.

Did you mean to say democracy doesn't work?

Well, now we are getting off-topic, but I am not a big advocate of democracy. I think it is a very bad system of government.
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lurker10

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #26521 on: February 10, 2016, 02:39:39 pm »

I don't see any proof that a "decentralized" community is a particularly efficient organization for developing and managing a crypto.

I also don't see that the market values a crypto very highly because it is "decentralized". I see the opposite (Ethereum and Ripple at the top of coinmarketcap).

The argument that "decentralized is better, but people are too stupid to realize it" has run its course. You can only go so long with idealistic arguments that no-one cares about in the real world.

Did you mean to say democracy doesn't work?

Well, now we are getting off-topic, but I am not a big advocate of democracy. I think it is a very bad system of government.

I tend to think that in the future you will have many opportunities to experience dictatorships, both in crypto and in real life, given how world events are unfolding, and many opportunities to compare what is better. I don't say that democracy is a perfect model without flaws, but to think that dictatorship is better, in crypto or real life? Thanks but no thanks. The best thing about crypto is diversity. We can make free choices about what we bet our fortunes on, and that's splendid.
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mcjavar

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #26522 on: February 10, 2016, 04:12:33 pm »

Just a few short questions:

Where is James?
Is the SuperNET project still up and running, developing, evolving?
Will all my assets become worthless with Nxt2.0?
Is there another site like nxtreporting.com has been?
CaI use Nxt without downloading the whole blockchain?

Thank you
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sadface

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #26523 on: February 10, 2016, 04:51:08 pm »

Just a few short questions:

Where is James?
Is the SuperNET project still up and running, developing, evolving?
Will all my assets become worthless with Nxt2.0?
Is there another site like nxtreporting.com has been?
CaI use Nxt without downloading the whole blockchain?

Thank you

nxtportal.org or mynxt.info

james doesnt come here anymore, hes probably on slack. what i know from him makes me think hes probably not going to like the changes.

supernet lite client or webwallet at mynxt.info
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yassin54

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #26524 on: February 10, 2016, 04:56:27 pm »

Just a few short questions:
Where is James?
in Slack Supernet, you can join here http://slackinvite.supernet.org/  ;)

Is the SuperNET project still up and running, developing, evolving?
Yes, you can check development in Channel #Iguana  :)

Will all my assets become worthless with Nxt2.0?
i dont Know!!  :P

Is there another site like nxtreporting.com has been?
Yes, look this https://www.mynxt.info/assets or this https://nxtportal.org/assets/  ;)

CaI use Nxt without downloading the whole blockchain?
Hmmm Maybe but i have not link!!  ::)
or you can use http://www.supernet.org/index.php
you are not need download blockchain  ;D

Brangdon

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #26525 on: February 10, 2016, 07:33:34 pm »

Organization-backed crypto is fiat money done in a convoluted inconvenient way. Why bother? Just use the old system, it's more convenient and faster.

The choice is binary: decentralization or the old system. Organization-backed crypto will be made censorship compliant.
They may not be bothered about censorship. One major thing some institutions want is transparency. They get that from having everything on a publicly visible block-chain. It makes various kinds of cheating impossible, for example.

I don't see any proof that a "decentralized" community is a particularly efficient organization for developing and managing a crypto.
Did anyone claim it was? We don't do it because it's more efficient. Similarly with the block-chain itself. Bitcoin is ludicrously inefficient. It currently costs around $250 to process each Bitcoin transaction.

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mikesbmw

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #26526 on: February 10, 2016, 09:43:19 pm »

Did anyone claim it was? We don't do it because it's more efficient. Similarly with the block-chain itself. Bitcoin is ludicrously inefficient. It currently costs around $250 to process each Bitcoin transaction.

So what's the advantage then?

<gloom and doom mode>

I've had several ideas (some are on this forum) but found it VERY hard to connect to the right people, find funding (never got any). Connected people and made stuff (paid out of my own pocket) only to find out later that other people were already working on similar stuff (and were ahead).
A lot of people were screaming for more marketing and more presence, but who will do that? Who's in charge?

The asset exchange: a lot of people got screwed because no one is in charge.
There were "initiatives" like Nxt inspect... But they didn't have the power to stop anyone from creating an asset (nobody does).

It's easy to make this list a lot longer.

</gloom and doom mode>

Is everything about Nxt gloom and doom?
Certainly not. A lot of good has come from Nxt, but that's mainly from a tech point of view. Not from a legitimate business stand point.
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lurker10

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #26527 on: February 10, 2016, 10:31:02 pm »

It's a chicken and egg problem. Market valuation of Nxt is low, it's difficult to fund projects with this price of Nxt. Market valuation will go higher if people see successful projects on the Nxt platform, they will buy Nxt to be part of these projects.

It's easy to turn gloomy over this fact, but remember that there is no choice. The financial system of the world is bankrupt and will be reset. Will Nxt be part of the future system we can't be sure. What we can be sure of is the change, change is coming, even mainstream media are seeing and reporting on how things are falling apart in the fiat system. The problem with the coming reset it's not going to be quick and unnoticed. A lot of people over time will lose trust for the centralized power to manage the monetary system and will get interested in alternative systems: barter, precious metals, crypto, p2p markets. Nxt will have an advantage of tested code base, examples of working projects, economic knowledge applied to the new crypto economy, this new NXT 2.0 architecture enabling more participation. It's easy to feel gloomy over the short term depressed price but don't be a short term thinker. The future is full of opportunities, the total valuation of crypto currencies is a mere $7 billion, 0.01% of the world are involved, it's the beginning.
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coretechs

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #26528 on: February 11, 2016, 02:57:19 am »

BigchainDB announced today, a scalable blockchain db with native assets.  https://www.bigchaindb.com/whitepaper/bigchaindb-whitepaper.pdf
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Piano-man

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #26529 on: February 11, 2016, 06:21:38 am »

It's a chicken and egg problem. Market valuation of Nxt is low, it's difficult to fund projects with this price of Nxt. Market valuation will go higher if people see successful projects on the Nxt platform, they will buy Nxt to be part of these projects.

It's easy to turn gloomy over this fact, but remember that there is no choice. The financial system of the world is bankrupt and will be reset. Will Nxt be part of the future system we can't be sure. What we can be sure of is the change, change is coming, even mainstream media are seeing and reporting on how things are falling apart in the fiat system. The problem with the coming reset it's not going to be quick and unnoticed. A lot of people over time will lose trust for the centralized power to manage the monetary system and will get interested in alternative systems: barter, precious metals, crypto, p2p markets. Nxt will have an advantage of tested code base, examples of working projects, economic knowledge applied to the new crypto economy, this new NXT 2.0 architecture enabling more participation. It's easy to feel gloomy over the short term depressed price but don't be a short term thinker. The future is full of opportunities, the total valuation of crypto currencies is a mere $7 billion, 0.01% of the world are involved, it's the beginning.

Couldn't have said it better myself ;)
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Kiomansk

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #26530 on: February 11, 2016, 06:37:53 am »

It's a chicken and egg problem. Market valuation of Nxt is low, it's difficult to fund projects with this price of Nxt. Market valuation will go higher if people see successful projects on the Nxt platform, they will buy Nxt to be part of these projects.

It's easy to turn gloomy over this fact, but remember that there is no choice. The financial system of the world is bankrupt and will be reset. Will Nxt be part of the future system we can't be sure. What we can be sure of is the change, change is coming, even mainstream media are seeing and reporting on how things are falling apart in the fiat system. The problem with the coming reset it's not going to be quick and unnoticed. A lot of people over time will lose trust for the centralized power to manage the monetary system and will get interested in alternative systems: barter, precious metals, crypto, p2p markets. Nxt will have an advantage of tested code base, examples of working projects, economic knowledge applied to the new crypto economy, this new NXT 2.0 architecture enabling more participation. It's easy to feel gloomy over the short term depressed price but don't be a short term thinker. The future is full of opportunities, the total valuation of crypto currencies is a mere $7 billion, 0.01% of the world are involved, it's the beginning.

This is what I've actually been proposing for over a year now. Glad to see someone else shares a similar vision. (Or notices similar trends.)

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Peter2516

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #26531 on: February 11, 2016, 06:44:01 am »

Quote
While developers are vital to NXT, they do not “lead“ the project. The NXT project is not led in any conventional sense, but rather functions by virtue of individuals starting initiatives which are either successful or fail. This process is not nearly as hit and miss as you might think. Instead, it favours innovation and creates an ever-open field where anyone can try and only the people with the requisite business and organisation skills will flourish.

This explains why people looking in on the NXT community from the outside often get the impression of a disjointed, disorganised group of people talking at cross purposes. Some may find this off-putting, especially those who take the view that progress can only be made in a linear way where the dots are clearly marked out in advance and always joined by straight lines.

However, a more accurate way of looking at a project like NXT, and for instance also Linux, is that people independently of each other put down their dots and then afterwards look round to see if it’s possible to connect them to other dots which have been put down by others. This means that the picture of what is possible is emerging and growing, instead of being predefined and limited.

[..]

The core developers propose or code NXT to behave in certain ways. In response users and 3rd party developers can and do, often vigorously, voice their assent or displeasure with these changes through various channels including the NXT Forums, Slack, or by publishing articles. Normally, these changes are made via patches, or it is explained why these will not be made or must be postponed.

If such decisions are not accepted, the process usually becomes heated. This is where decentralised decision making can be confusing to people who are used to centralised processes. Decentralised processes are by their nature vocal and not everyone involved is necessarily skilled at expressing themselves. This part of the process can therefore be long and arduous, but the flipside of it is that a lot of knowledge and viewpoints are exchanged, which in turn provide nourishment for future developments. Due to the skill and merit-based nature of decentralised processes, this is usually the time where individuals with negotiating skills come into their own.

A decentralised organisation often looks like pure chaos when looked at from the outside. Rule-like conformity and sticking to a coherent plan are often seen to be ignored or even absent.

Still, it would be a profound mistake to think that decentralisation is equal to chaos, because while there may not be a concrete blueprint to get from A to B, the fact that decentralised organisations do get the work done, and often quicker than centrally led ones, is proof that the- re must be some kind of process going on.

Some snippets from Damelon's article on decentralised systems: http://nxter.org/nxt-2nd-birthday/#p=18
« Last Edit: February 11, 2016, 06:49:41 am by Peter2516 »
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maddy83

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #26532 on: February 11, 2016, 06:48:26 am »

It's easy to turn gloomy over this fact, but remember that there is no choice. The financial system of the world is bankrupt and will be reset. Will Nxt be part of the future system we can't be sure. What we can be sure of is the change, change is coming, even mainstream media are seeing and reporting on how things are falling apart in the fiat system. The problem with the coming reset it's not going to be quick and unnoticed. A lot of people over time will lose trust for the centralized power to manage the monetary system and will get interested in alternative systems: barter, precious metals, crypto, p2p markets. Nxt will have an advantage of tested code base, examples of working projects, economic knowledge applied to the new crypto economy, this new NXT 2.0 architecture enabling more participation. It's easy to feel gloomy over the short term depressed price but don't be a short term thinker. The future is full of opportunities, the total valuation of crypto currencies is a mere $7 billion, 0.01% of the world are involved, it's the beginning.

You are speaking as if it's a foregone conclusion that this "reset" will happen. You are confusing your own beliefs with facts. The financial system was not reset in the 2008 crisis, and there's no indication it will be now.

I agree that people are losing trust with central banks, and I am one of them. But crypto, in its current form, is not a viable replacement. A decentralized crypto where no-one is in charge is a broken system, as the bitcoin block size problem demonstrated.
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Kiomansk

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #26533 on: February 11, 2016, 07:34:35 am »

It's easy to turn gloomy over this fact, but remember that there is no choice. The financial system of the world is bankrupt and will be reset. Will Nxt be part of the future system we can't be sure. What we can be sure of is the change, change is coming, even mainstream media are seeing and reporting on how things are falling apart in the fiat system. The problem with the coming reset it's not going to be quick and unnoticed. A lot of people over time will lose trust for the centralized power to manage the monetary system and will get interested in alternative systems: barter, precious metals, crypto, p2p markets. Nxt will have an advantage of tested code base, examples of working projects, economic knowledge applied to the new crypto economy, this new NXT 2.0 architecture enabling more participation. It's easy to feel gloomy over the short term depressed price but don't be a short term thinker. The future is full of opportunities, the total valuation of crypto currencies is a mere $7 billion, 0.01% of the world are involved, it's the beginning.

You are speaking as if it's a foregone conclusion that this "reset" will happen. You are confusing your own beliefs with facts. The financial system was not reset in the 2008 crisis, and there's no indication it will be now.

I agree that people are losing trust with central banks, and I am one of them. But crypto, in its current form, is not a viable replacement. A decentralized crypto where no-one is in charge is a broken system, as the bitcoin block size problem demonstrated.
What makes you so sure that represents a broken system though?

Are you not confusing your own belief to be a fact in this case?

After all, the decision was up to a group of people. Remember, even a CEO answers to a board of directors and share holders. If the people developing Bitcoin had disagreements about where this new and innovative technology will go I hardly see this as a failing of the crypto realm.

Instead, those who disagree with how the majority of the bitcoin core handled the issue were free to leave and start a direct competitor to the old Bitcoin core, thus allowing us, the users, to deice which suits our needs the most.
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komputor

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #26534 on: February 11, 2016, 07:45:34 am »

Sometimes we all talk about decentralization without understand it's implications. Decentralization also implies giving in to a sort of order within perceived chaos. Decentralization is a direct imitation of nature itself - Leaderless, self sufficient and highly adaptable. We are trying to judge the success or failure of decentralized systems with a mindset coming from a world of centralized decision makers.

In my opinion, the majority of the world's problems today are being created by centralized mindsets and centralized organizations that are intoxicated by their own power. To advocate a centralized leadership of any sorts to a decentralized system is not any better.
The goal of decentralized systems is not a one-track growth mantra. It is to adapt and to find the path of least resistance towards achieving a goal. Decentralized systems should welcome competition, diversity and experimentation. Create a thousand forks if you need to, at least one will prove to be beneficial to further build upon.
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lurker10

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #26535 on: February 11, 2016, 08:24:43 am »

It's easy to turn gloomy over this fact, but remember that there is no choice. The financial system of the world is bankrupt and will be reset. Will Nxt be part of the future system we can't be sure. What we can be sure of is the change, change is coming, even mainstream media are seeing and reporting on how things are falling apart in the fiat system. The problem with the coming reset it's not going to be quick and unnoticed. A lot of people over time will lose trust for the centralized power to manage the monetary system and will get interested in alternative systems: barter, precious metals, crypto, p2p markets. Nxt will have an advantage of tested code base, examples of working projects, economic knowledge applied to the new crypto economy, this new NXT 2.0 architecture enabling more participation. It's easy to feel gloomy over the short term depressed price but don't be a short term thinker. The future is full of opportunities, the total valuation of crypto currencies is a mere $7 billion, 0.01% of the world are involved, it's the beginning.

You are speaking as if it's a foregone conclusion that this "reset" will happen. You are confusing your own beliefs with facts. The financial system was not reset in the 2008 crisis, and there's no indication it will be now.

I agree that people are losing trust with central banks, and I am one of them. But crypto, in its current form, is not a viable replacement. A decentralized crypto where no-one is in charge is a broken system, as the bitcoin block size problem demonstrated.

I didn't say the reset would be now. The reset has been happening since 2008, Bitcoin was invented, mindsets have been changing, this is the reset. I've said it's not going to be quick. The reset will take years, decades perhaps; a series of many events, not one big event. Change will be the only constant, get used to it. Crypto cannot be the only replacement, and the current form of crypto is not final. Crypto is code, it is morphing into various forms. These forms can be a replacement of a part of the old system.

Bitcoin is the first crypto project, it has flaws, it can be perfected as Bitcoin, as an alternative crypto, it can be forked, it can and will become many things. People use it every day in its current design, it's good enough to them. If it fails beyond repair, there are others waiting in line to take its spot. Engineers often disassemble their first design and make a new one, sometimes they repeat this several times over before a viable form is created. These are not just hopes and beliefs, these are facts. Cheer up and grab the future by the tail :)
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MrCluster87

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #26536 on: February 11, 2016, 11:18:16 am »

maddy83

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #26537 on: February 11, 2016, 01:54:20 pm »

It's easy to turn gloomy over this fact, but remember that there is no choice. The financial system of the world is bankrupt and will be reset. Will Nxt be part of the future system we can't be sure. What we can be sure of is the change, change is coming, even mainstream media are seeing and reporting on how things are falling apart in the fiat system. The problem with the coming reset it's not going to be quick and unnoticed. A lot of people over time will lose trust for the centralized power to manage the monetary system and will get interested in alternative systems: barter, precious metals, crypto, p2p markets. Nxt will have an advantage of tested code base, examples of working projects, economic knowledge applied to the new crypto economy, this new NXT 2.0 architecture enabling more participation. It's easy to feel gloomy over the short term depressed price but don't be a short term thinker. The future is full of opportunities, the total valuation of crypto currencies is a mere $7 billion, 0.01% of the world are involved, it's the beginning.

You are speaking as if it's a foregone conclusion that this "reset" will happen. You are confusing your own beliefs with facts. The financial system was not reset in the 2008 crisis, and there's no indication it will be now.

I agree that people are losing trust with central banks, and I am one of them. But crypto, in its current form, is not a viable replacement. A decentralized crypto where no-one is in charge is a broken system, as the bitcoin block size problem demonstrated.

I didn't say the reset would be now. The reset has been happening since 2008, Bitcoin was invented, mindsets have been changing, this is the reset. I've said it's not going to be quick. The reset will take years, decades perhaps; a series of many events, not one big event. Change will be the only constant, get used to it. Crypto cannot be the only replacement, and the current form of crypto is not final. Crypto is code, it is morphing into various forms. These forms can be a replacement of a part of the old system.

Bitcoin is the first crypto project, it has flaws, it can be perfected as Bitcoin, as an alternative crypto, it can be forked, it can and will become many things. People use it every day in its current design, it's good enough to them. If it fails beyond repair, there are others waiting in line to take its spot. Engineers often disassemble their first design and make a new one, sometimes they repeat this several times over before a viable form is created. These are not just hopes and beliefs, these are facts. Cheer up and grab the future by the tail :)

I appreciate your positive attitude. I welcome the day when crypto will be a serious alternative to the current financial system.
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lurker10

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #26538 on: February 11, 2016, 06:03:17 pm »

A lot of people over time will lose trust for the centralized power to manage the monetary system and will get interested in alternative systems: barter, precious metals, crypto, p2p markets.

Lines Around The Block To Buy Gold In London; Banks Placing "Unusually Large Orders For Physical"

Faith in the centralized monetary system is gradually eroded.
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Brangdon

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #26539 on: February 11, 2016, 09:46:08 pm »

Did anyone claim it was? We don't do it because it's more efficient. Similarly with the block-chain itself. Bitcoin is ludicrously inefficient. It currently costs around $250 to process each Bitcoin transaction.

So what's the advantage then?
Dis-organisation is kinda the default. It's what you have until someone makes the effort to organise, to form a company or institution. If it has an advantage, it's avoiding the problems of such. Centralisation invariably leads to power becoming concentrated in the centre. Then, power corrupts. Not quickly, but surely.
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