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Author Topic: Price speculation  (Read 4206562 times)

2Kool4Skewl

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #15860 on: December 22, 2014, 05:02:46 am »

it just happens to be Proof of Capacity instead.. which I figure basically has all the advantages of Proof of Stake, energy efficiency and ASIC-proof, without the extra security concerns/complexities.

This will cause Burst to centralize around those who can afford the most disks instead of processors.  Again, the corporations / governments will overtake the network because they have the economies of scale.  Any currency whose security can be taken away from the currency users will lead to centralization around malevolent actors.

The most important feature of a PoS currency is the fact that those who use the currency secure the chain and that power cannot be taken away from them by any means.
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Pilot

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #15861 on: December 22, 2014, 05:10:57 am »

You guys know how PayCoin does instant transactions?  It centralizes them so a single node is processing them at a time :)

Did you do a code review? Can you point to the relative source? I don't recall reading about this in the white paper.
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sparta_cuss

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #15862 on: December 22, 2014, 05:22:33 am »

Let's at least face that initial distribution is one of the hardest things to do.

I think it's the thing that engenders the most attacks on any starting coin.

The discussion álways deteriorates when someone brings in that useless benchmark "fair".


That's because the crypto world is filled by people who don't understand shit about what is a currency and it's characteristics, which is a shame for people working and investing in currencies.
To be good, a currency must:
- Be widely accepted
- Be a good store of value
- Be easily transportable
- Be divisible

If a subjective work like "fairness" is absent from this list, it is no surprise. It has nothing to do with a currency.

This may be, but if this is so, it's something that needs to be taken into account :)
Always work with the situation as is, not as you would wish it.

(I used to be a fortune cookie in my last life ;) )

Well, yes and no.
If you mean that we need to take those wrong ideas into account when presenting Nxt, I can say "yes", maybe.
But those who should take the situation as is are the ones who ask for fairness, because in the end, reality wins. People won't care, in a few years from now, if 21 persons got their share of Nxt, or if 1000 dudes got the first bitcoins. There are 7 billion people on Earth, so what's fair? Nobody will actually care.
People will care about that set of 4 rules, and that's it.

So what do I say to people who try to argue about fairness?
"Go teach yourself economics before you try to teach me. Till then, let me work."
We don't have time for that nonsense.
Imo.

Many of the people investing in cryptocurrencies are speculators. They are regarding Nxt and Btc as assets that will have value that they can then exchange for something else in the future.
Those who see Nxt and Btc as currencies are seeing them for what they can do or enable, and that is a totally different mindset.

If you see cryptocurrencies as assets for investing, then "fairness" means an equal opportunity to buy in at a low price (exchange rate for fiat or BTC).

If you see cryptocurrencies as true currencies, then "fairness" means an equivalent opportunity to participate and use the currency. This can happen at any price (exchange rate).

In the end, both types of people are looking to sell the currency at some point in the future. But they differ in why they are buying and how they are thinking of the selling. Asset buyers will buy in order to sell at a profit, and their goal is to accumulate value in fiat or some other currency.
Currency buyers will buy and then use the currency in exchange for goods and services, or to invest in some asset denominated in the new currency. When they "sell," they are using the currency as such, as a medium of exchange.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2014, 05:25:00 am by sparta_cuss »
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SwissAlps

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #15863 on: December 22, 2014, 05:56:47 am »

Let's at least face that initial distribution is one of the hardest things to do.

I think it's the thing that engenders the most attacks on any starting coin.

The discussion álways deteriorates when someone brings in that useless benchmark "fair".


That's because the crypto world is filled by people who don't understand shit about what is a currency and it's characteristics, which is a shame for people working and investing in currencies.
To be good, a currency must:
- Be widely accepted
- Be a good store of value
- Be easily transportable
- Be divisible

If a subjective work like "fairness" is absent from this list, it is no surprise. It has nothing to do with a currency.

This may be, but if this is so, it's something that needs to be taken into account :)
Always work with the situation as is, not as you would wish it.

(I used to be a fortune cookie in my last life ;) )

Well, yes and no.
If you mean that we need to take those wrong ideas into account when presenting Nxt, I can say "yes", maybe.
But those who should take the situation as is are the ones who ask for fairness, because in the end, reality wins. People won't care, in a few years from now, if 21 persons got their share of Nxt, or if 1000 dudes got the first bitcoins. There are 7 billion people on Earth, so what's fair? Nobody will actually care.
People will care about that set of 4 rules, and that's it.

So what do I say to people who try to argue about fairness?
"Go teach yourself economics before you try to teach me. Till then, let me work."
We don't have time for that nonsense.
Imo.

Many of the people investing in cryptocurrencies are speculators. They are regarding Nxt and Btc as assets that will have value that they can then exchange for something else in the future.
Those who see Nxt and Btc as currencies are seeing them for what they can do or enable, and that is a totally different mindset.

If you see cryptocurrencies as assets for investing, then "fairness" means an equal opportunity to buy in at a low price (exchange rate for fiat or BTC).

If you see cryptocurrencies as true currencies, then "fairness" means an equivalent opportunity to participate and use the currency. This can happen at any price (exchange rate).

In the end, both types of people are looking to sell the currency at some point in the future. But they differ in why they are buying and how they are thinking of the selling. Asset buyers will buy in order to sell at a profit, and their goal is to accumulate value in fiat or some other currency.
Currency buyers will buy and then use the currency in exchange for goods and services, or to invest in some asset denominated in the new currency. When they "sell," they are using the currency as such, as a medium of exchange.

The fact that NXT has been able to go so far until now is a proof enough that the initial distribution was right, therefore fair.

However, now we should find ways to increase the number of users, even if they own only small amounts.

When you own some NXT, you start to use them, then you see the advantages.

The current state is far from satisfactory. Getting NXT is a real pain, for regular people. Any ideas on how to make it easier ?
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Pilot

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #15864 on: December 22, 2014, 06:38:36 am »

Let's at least face that initial distribution is one of the hardest things to do.

I think it's the thing that engenders the most attacks on any starting coin.

The discussion álways deteriorates when someone brings in that useless benchmark "fair".


That's because the crypto world is filled by people who don't understand shit about what is a currency and it's characteristics, which is a shame for people working and investing in currencies.
To be good, a currency must:
- Be widely accepted
- Be a good store of value
- Be easily transportable
- Be divisible

If a subjective work like "fairness" is absent from this list, it is no surprise. It has nothing to do with a currency.

This may be, but if this is so, it's something that needs to be taken into account :)
Always work with the situation as is, not as you would wish it.

(I used to be a fortune cookie in my last life ;) )

Well, yes and no.
If you mean that we need to take those wrong ideas into account when presenting Nxt, I can say "yes", maybe.
But those who should take the situation as is are the ones who ask for fairness, because in the end, reality wins. People won't care, in a few years from now, if 21 persons got their share of Nxt, or if 1000 dudes got the first bitcoins. There are 7 billion people on Earth, so what's fair? Nobody will actually care.
People will care about that set of 4 rules, and that's it.

So what do I say to people who try to argue about fairness?
"Go teach yourself economics before you try to teach me. Till then, let me work."
We don't have time for that nonsense.
Imo.

Many of the people investing in cryptocurrencies are speculators. They are regarding Nxt and Btc as assets that will have value that they can then exchange for something else in the future.
Those who see Nxt and Btc as currencies are seeing them for what they can do or enable, and that is a totally different mindset.

If you see cryptocurrencies as assets for investing, then "fairness" means an equal opportunity to buy in at a low price (exchange rate for fiat or BTC).

If you see cryptocurrencies as true currencies, then "fairness" means an equivalent opportunity to participate and use the currency. This can happen at any price (exchange rate).

In the end, both types of people are looking to sell the currency at some point in the future. But they differ in why they are buying and how they are thinking of the selling. Asset buyers will buy in order to sell at a profit, and their goal is to accumulate value in fiat or some other currency.
Currency buyers will buy and then use the currency in exchange for goods and services, or to invest in some asset denominated in the new currency. When they "sell," they are using the currency as such, as a medium of exchange.

The fact that NXT has been able to go so far until now is a proof enough that the initial distribution was right, therefore fair.

However, now we should find ways to increase the number of users, even if they own only small amounts.

When you own some NXT, you start to use them, then you see the advantages.

The current state is far from satisfactory. Getting NXT is a real pain, for regular people. Any ideas on how to make it easier ?

Sure, a light weight wallet that isn't called "MoFo" and has a one click installer and puts a shortcut on your start menu/screen for windows or puts an icon in your doc for Macs. Option for brain wallet or wallet.dat version. Self-updating is a bonus.

A faucet that gives you more than 1-4 NXT.
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SwissAlps

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #15865 on: December 22, 2014, 06:45:44 am »


Sure, a light weight wallet that isn't called "MoFo" and has a one click installer and puts a shortcut on your start menu/screen for windows or puts an icon in your doc for Macs. Option for brain wallet or wallet.dat version. Self-updating is a bonus.

A faucet that gives you more than 1-4 NXT.

Yes.

How do we motivate the right people to think about this and start implementing this ?
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achim

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #15866 on: December 22, 2014, 07:16:28 am »


Sure, a light weight wallet that isn't called "MoFo" and has a one click installer and puts a shortcut on your start menu/screen for windows or puts an icon in your doc for Macs. Option for brain wallet or wallet.dat version. Self-updating is a bonus.

A faucet that gives you more than 1-4 NXT.

Yes.

How do we motivate the right people to think about this and start implementing this ?

Probably by setting up a bounty.

What we need in my eyes is:

1. The lightweight client Pilot described (this is so important for adoption!)

2. A wrapper around the NRS, with installation wizard, Desktop icon and start up splash screen instead of command line. Sadly, dummy users really do get scared by that run.bat and black box
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jones

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #15867 on: December 22, 2014, 07:16:58 am »


Sure, a light weight wallet that isn't called "MoFo" and has a one click installer and puts a shortcut on your start menu/screen for windows or puts an icon in your doc for Macs. Option for brain wallet or wallet.dat version. Self-updating is a bonus.

A faucet that gives you more than 1-4 NXT.

Yes.

How do we motivate the right people to think about this and start implementing this ?

Working on #1 (light wallet) currently https://nxtforum.org/jay-framework/
#2 (one click install) would be great if someone could inherit Wesley's client packaging setup and keep that running, I'm sure bounties could be collected for that
#3, as soon as 1.4 drops to mainnet, and the public key is optional again, I will start to convert my public key announcer to a full fledged faucet, have some ideas about spam stopping I need to work out, plus I believe there's another faucet in beta right now, would be great to put that to a good domain name.

Lowing the entry barrier is at the utmost of importance right now, nxt is amazing once you get inside it, but right now our shell is too thick for most.

2015 will be the year of Nxt, whether the world wants it or not :)
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SwissAlps

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #15868 on: December 22, 2014, 07:33:09 am »


Sure, a light weight wallet that isn't called "MoFo" and has a one click installer and puts a shortcut on your start menu/screen for windows or puts an icon in your doc for Macs. Option for brain wallet or wallet.dat version. Self-updating is a bonus.

A faucet that gives you more than 1-4 NXT.

Yes.

How do we motivate the right people to think about this and start implementing this ?

Working on #1 (light wallet) currently https://nxtforum.org/jay-framework/
#2 (one click install) would be great if someone could inherit Wesley's client packaging setup and keep that running, I'm sure bounties could be collected for that
#3, as soon as 1.4 drops to mainnet, and the public key is optional again, I will start to convert my public key announcer to a full fledged faucet, have some ideas about spam stopping I need to work out, plus I believe there's another faucet in beta right now, would be great to put that to a good domain name.

Lowing the entry barrier is at the utmost of importance right now, nxt is amazing once you get inside it, but right now our shell is too thick for most.

2015 will be the year of Nxt, whether the world wants it or not :)

Hi Jones,

Do you thing you could you start a thread somewhere dedicated to this ?  Here, the discussion is little bit shortlived. I think it is really important matters that need some visibility...

Of course we will succeed in 2015  ;D ;D ;D
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Come-from-Beyond

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #15869 on: December 22, 2014, 07:38:32 am »

What about one person with five accounts?

This is an unstable situation which will be transformed into 20/80 after a while.
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jones

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #15870 on: December 22, 2014, 07:47:25 am »


Sure, a light weight wallet that isn't called "MoFo" and has a one click installer and puts a shortcut on your start menu/screen for windows or puts an icon in your doc for Macs. Option for brain wallet or wallet.dat version. Self-updating is a bonus.

A faucet that gives you more than 1-4 NXT.

Yes.

How do we motivate the right people to think about this and start implementing this ?

Working on #1 (light wallet) currently https://nxtforum.org/jay-framework/
#2 (one click install) would be great if someone could inherit Wesley's client packaging setup and keep that running, I'm sure bounties could be collected for that
#3, as soon as 1.4 drops to mainnet, and the public key is optional again, I will start to convert my public key announcer to a full fledged faucet, have some ideas about spam stopping I need to work out, plus I believe there's another faucet in beta right now, would be great to put that to a good domain name.

Lowing the entry barrier is at the utmost of importance right now, nxt is amazing once you get inside it, but right now our shell is too thick for most.

2015 will be the year of Nxt, whether the world wants it or not :)

Hi Jones,

Do you thing you could you start a thread somewhere dedicated to this ?  Here, the discussion is little bit shortlived. I think it is really important matters that need some visibility...

Of course we will succeed in 2015  ;D ;D ;D

probably a good idea, to make a sort of Lowering the entry barrier checklist and bounties. I'll write it up right now.
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LeChatNoir

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #15871 on: December 22, 2014, 07:53:19 am »

Yes. And also having a very liquid market in a reliable, safe, professional exchange (not BTER) which also accepts FIAT.
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Come-from-Beyond

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #15872 on: December 22, 2014, 07:54:08 am »

someone tried Nxt:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/comments/2pz138/not_bitcoin_for_laughs_i_tried_out_another/

now i just got a headache! can't downvote that thread too!

Such threads are a measurement of success. I recall old articles (~1997-200) about Windows (it was criticised like Nxt). Since those days number of copies sold per annum increased 100-fold.
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jones

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #15873 on: December 22, 2014, 08:11:41 am »

Lowering the entry barrier checklist:
https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/lowering-the-entry-barrier-checklist-and-bounties/

Always a good thing to be reminded of
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achim

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #15874 on: December 22, 2014, 08:43:14 am »

someone tried Nxt:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/comments/2pz138/not_bitcoin_for_laughs_i_tried_out_another/

now i just got a headache! can't downvote that thread too!

Such threads are a measurement of success. I recall old articles (~1997-200) about Windows (it was criticised like Nxt). Since those days number of copies sold per annum increased 100-fold.

You mean it's a form of emule effect?
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Come-from-Beyond

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #15875 on: December 22, 2014, 08:56:22 am »

You mean it's a form of emule effect?

I mean that without losers posting how bad X is that X should be considered dead. If losers are posting then it means that X is alive and kicking.
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bitcoinpaul

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #15876 on: December 22, 2014, 09:21:12 am »

I have messaged Wesley on Skype to see if someone can take this client over from him.
It is likely he just doesn't have time to invest in it anymore, so if we could do something similar like with the faucet, that would probably be best.

The standalone client was always very nice to have. Hopefully we'll have an answer soon.

Well, it should be no problem, right?

Nxt.org shouldn't redirect to old versions. What now?

I'll try out wesleys wallet and look for myself if it auto updates.

bitcoinpaul, I tried it out. If the Nxt Version is outdated you can install the newest client automatically and directly in the client. So the given version is never outdated. :)
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wesley

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #15877 on: December 22, 2014, 09:35:43 am »

Yes that is right, it will continue auto-updating. Nevertheless, it's always best if the version available for download is the newest, for obvious reasons. Mrv777 will actually take over the packaging of these update releases. I just haven't had the time yet to describe to him the process of packaging it, which I will do today.
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bitcoinpaul

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #15878 on: December 22, 2014, 09:38:48 am »

Yes that is right, it will continue auto-updating. Nevertheless, it's always best if the version available for download is the newest, for obvious reasons. Mrv777 will actually take over the packaging of these update releases. I just haven't had the time yet to describe to him the process of packaging it, which I will do today.

Great, thanks!
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EvilDave

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #15879 on: December 22, 2014, 09:45:16 am »

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