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2Kool4Skewl

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #7160 on: July 28, 2014, 06:43:26 am »

OK, I am kind of excited about this, both from technical and marketing points.
You know how there is all this hoopla about Turing complete language?
For those who followed the NXTcoinsco "name change" to Tradebots, you will know I have been working on a tradebot language today, but first I thought just something simple, like >, < ==, but then I thought why not make it Turing complete?

I know you are saying that would take a long time to do, but I figured it was worth looking for a nice C interpreter.
...
So, I now have a Turing complete language for people to program their tradebots with!

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #7161 on: July 28, 2014, 06:53:25 am »

Are you saying these bots would augment themselves? Or people would just have to build more efficient bots?

The latter, we don't want to create SkyNet, do we?
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jl777

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #7162 on: July 28, 2014, 07:03:15 am »

Are you saying these bots would augment themselves? Or people would just have to build more efficient bots?

The latter, we don't want to create SkyNet, do we?
I implemented tradebot system where new bots can use the outputs from existing bots. So if there was an automated tracker of profitability (actually I have to implement that for Tradebots profit sharing), then new bots could automatically be spawned using the outputs of the best bots. It would actually be a perfect fit for the GAUL stuff that I have messed around with in the past. All it needs is a way to accurately backtest to prune out inferior mutants quickly.

With picoc as its scripting language and access to any external API, well they could do a lot more than trade :)

sorry sarah

James

P.S. The only thing saving the world is that each node is its own island and no replication (yet)
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Fatih87SK

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #7163 on: July 28, 2014, 07:05:31 am »

Are you saying these bots would augment themselves? Or people would just have to build more efficient bots?

The latter, we don't want to create SkyNet, do we?
I implemented tradebot system where new bots can use the outputs from existing bots. So if there was an automated tracker of profitability (actually I have to implement that for Tradebots profit sharing), then new bots could automatically be spawned using the outputs of the best bots. It would actually be a perfect fit for the GAUL stuff that I have messed around with in the past. All it needs is a way to accurately backtest to prune out inferior mutants quickly.

With picoc as its scripting language and access to any external API, well they could do a lot more than trade :)

sorry sarah

James

P.S. The only thing saving the world is that each node is its own island and no replication (yet)

Holy shit. I didn't understand 1 sentence, but it sounds cool.  :P
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jl777

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #7164 on: July 28, 2014, 07:19:32 am »

Are you saying these bots would augment themselves? Or people would just have to build more efficient bots?

The latter, we don't want to create SkyNet, do we?
I implemented tradebot system where new bots can use the outputs from existing bots. So if there was an automated tracker of profitability (actually I have to implement that for Tradebots profit sharing), then new bots could automatically be spawned using the outputs of the best bots. It would actually be a perfect fit for the GAUL stuff that I have messed around with in the past. All it needs is a way to accurately backtest to prune out inferior mutants quickly.

With picoc as its scripting language and access to any external API, well they could do a lot more than trade :)

sorry sarah

James

P.S. The only thing saving the world is that each node is its own island and no replication (yet)

Holy shit. I didn't understand 1 sentence, but it sounds cool.  :P
It means that within a week or so, people will be able to write tradebots in C, but without having to do any really complicated system/network stuff. All that will be encapsulated in functions or market signals.
I think it will be more powerful than MT4 as it will have built in access to all the exchanges and of course InstantDEX peer to peer trading

Setting up an arbitrage bot would be just a matter for specifying the input sources and a simple script written in C.
I need some help in data gathering so there will be data in the cloud for all the signals people will want. Just a matter of running my code in data gathering mode. Havent worked out how best to decentralize it, but I think just some random queries to various nodes for the same data and if it is all +/- small amount, then should be good enough to use. The design though is for people to be gathering their own data (which also happens to mean they can be forging all the time)

Also would be nice to get some C programmers to verify things, but I just took the existing picoc and made a few changes to the interfacing. In any case, the only thing a malicious program can blow up is its own node, so this has none of the dangers of a fully replicated Turing complete solution.

It solves a different goal, one where everyone wants to have a different (more profitable) result instead of everyone wanting the identical result. In some ways I think it is a lot more practical as the bottom line is people can write simple software and get access to realtime trading markets.

James
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TheWireMaster

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #7165 on: July 28, 2014, 07:31:18 am »

Are you saying these bots would augment themselves? Or people would just have to build more efficient bots?

The latter, we don't want to create SkyNet, do we?
I implemented tradebot system where new bots can use the outputs from existing bots. So if there was an automated tracker of profitability (actually I have to implement that for Tradebots profit sharing), then new bots could automatically be spawned using the outputs of the best bots. It would actually be a perfect fit for the GAUL stuff that I have messed around with in the past. All it needs is a way to accurately backtest to prune out inferior mutants quickly.

With picoc as its scripting language and access to any external API, well they could do a lot more than trade :)

sorry sarah

James

P.S. The only thing saving the world is that each node is its own island and no replication (yet)

Holy shit. I didn't understand 1 sentence, but it sounds cool.  :P

+1 :)
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Come-from-Beyond

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #7166 on: July 28, 2014, 07:31:37 am »

I implemented tradebot system where new bots can use the outputs from existing bots.

Hm, that was idea behind SC...
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maddy83

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #7167 on: July 28, 2014, 07:34:50 am »

people will be able to write tradebots in C

What is the reasoning for selecting C as the scripting language vs something else (like Lua for example)?

Looks very nice overall, should be fun making bots with it.
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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #7168 on: July 28, 2014, 07:45:06 am »

OK, I am kind of excited about this, both from technical and marketing points.
You know how there is all this hoopla about Turing complete language?
For those who followed the NXTcoinsco "name change" to Tradebots, you will know I have been working on a tradebot language today, but first I thought just something simple, like >, < ==, but then I thought why not make it Turing complete?

I know you are saying that would take a long time to do, but I figured it was worth looking for a nice C interpreter.
...
So, I now have a Turing complete language for people to program their tradebots with!

In the .conf file, I look for dynamically loaded libraries to support custom languages
With the language compiler loaded into the system, you can then send it JSON string that is the program:

{'lang':'ptl','botname':'testbot','inputs':[{'exchange':'bter','base':'NXT','rel':'BTC'}],'signals':[{'name':'buy','size':4},{'name':'sell','size':8}],'picoc':'double main(int argc,char **argv){ double val = 1.234567890123456; val = *(double *)argv[0]; return(val);}'}

program output:
bot returns 13383.935580646748349 event.1 Jul_27_14 06:56:36 PM bot.(testbot) id.0 BTC NXT

The bots are called in dependency order for all price changes and once per minute. It was a bit tricky to make sure the order of calling the bots are done so all the data is ready for each bot, this is determined by order the tradebots are added to the system to create the tradebot topology.

The above is just a small test program in 'JSON' where " -> ' to deal with the stringification of strings through all the layers.
lang: ptl is just for pico tradebot language
botname: testbot is how other bots can get the output signals of this bot
inputs: is an array of external data sources (all the major exchanges and contract pairs) and I will also add some basic signal processing, like smoothing, moving averages, noise filtering, etc.
signals: these are the named outputs of this bot and the size, so the output can be more than just a single number, it could be an entire data structure
picoc: this is the Turing complete part, I was able to integrate in the picoc interpreter and verify that I can pass data in and out of the tradebot code. I even changed it so by default it outputs a double for easier connecting to other things needing floating point inputs. I will be able to give access to the picoc programs the entire dataset that my data gathering is doing. In fact, I can let it access external functions, so it would be possible to make NXT API calls from within the picoc, or bitcoind, or basically anything.

Now the reason I was able to add Turing complete language support into my tradebot language in less than a day is that I care not about synchronizing all nodes. Tradebots design is for each node to run a different set of tradebots to come up with customized trading decisions.

Now that I have the pico tradebot language and the realtime data gathering and the realtime bitmap display and the atomic exchange and a hub and spoke network, InstantDEX is very close to initial release. First I will make a auto NXT -> BTC converter that will allow payment in NXT to all places that accept BTC. With what is in place, well, that is pretty much enough to allow this.

So, NXT has Turing complete language via Tradebots (formerly NXTcoinsco) service!
People who make tradebots can let others use it and then share trading profits, but only if they are profitable. I have accelerated deploying SVM enabled tradebots as all this is coming together very nicely. With SVM creation ability, I expect people will be able to make nicely profitable tradebots.

James
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TheWireMaster

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #7169 on: July 28, 2014, 07:53:48 am »

OK, I am kind of excited about this, both from technical and marketing points.
You know how there is all this hoopla about Turing complete language?
For those who followed the NXTcoinsco "name change" to Tradebots, you will know I have been working on a tradebot language today, but first I thought just something simple, like >, < ==, but then I thought why not make it Turing complete?

I know you are saying that would take a long time to do, but I figured it was worth looking for a nice C interpreter.
...
So, I now have a Turing complete language for people to program their tradebots with!

In the .conf file, I look for dynamically loaded libraries to support custom languages
With the language compiler loaded into the system, you can then send it JSON string that is the program:

{'lang':'ptl','botname':'testbot','inputs':[{'exchange':'bter','base':'NXT','rel':'BTC'}],'signals':[{'name':'buy','size':4},{'name':'sell','size':8}],'picoc':'double main(int argc,char **argv){ double val = 1.234567890123456; val = *(double *)argv[0]; return(val);}'}

program output:
bot returns 13383.935580646748349 event.1 Jul_27_14 06:56:36 PM bot.(testbot) id.0 BTC NXT

The bots are called in dependency order for all price changes and once per minute. It was a bit tricky to make sure the order of calling the bots are done so all the data is ready for each bot, this is determined by order the tradebots are added to the system to create the tradebot topology.

The above is just a small test program in 'JSON' where " -> ' to deal with the stringification of strings through all the layers.
lang: ptl is just for pico tradebot language
botname: testbot is how other bots can get the output signals of this bot
inputs: is an array of external data sources (all the major exchanges and contract pairs) and I will also add some basic signal processing, like smoothing, moving averages, noise filtering, etc.
signals: these are the named outputs of this bot and the size, so the output can be more than just a single number, it could be an entire data structure
picoc: this is the Turing complete part, I was able to integrate in the picoc interpreter and verify that I can pass data in and out of the tradebot code. I even changed it so by default it outputs a double for easier connecting to other things needing floating point inputs. I will be able to give access to the picoc programs the entire dataset that my data gathering is doing. In fact, I can let it access external functions, so it would be possible to make NXT API calls from within the picoc, or bitcoind, or basically anything.

Now the reason I was able to add Turing complete language support into my tradebot language in less than a day is that I care not about synchronizing all nodes. Tradebots design is for each node to run a different set of tradebots to come up with customized trading decisions.

Now that I have the pico tradebot language and the realtime data gathering and the realtime bitmap display and the atomic exchange and a hub and spoke network, InstantDEX is very close to initial release. First I will make a auto NXT -> BTC converter that will allow payment in NXT to all places that accept BTC. With what is in place, well, that is pretty much enough to allow this.

So, NXT has Turing complete language via Tradebots (formerly NXTcoinsco) service!
People who make tradebots can let others use it and then share trading profits, but only if they are profitable. I have accelerated deploying SVM enabled tradebots as all this is coming together very nicely. With SVM creation ability, I expect people will be able to make nicely profitable tradebots.

James

Can you please keep this on hold for a couple of days until I convert my euros into NXT? 3/4 days should be enough... ;)
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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #7170 on: July 28, 2014, 08:08:00 am »

@AEcharts
I just read some of your posting history, and in all the posts I read, you do say that you are wondering if there is interest in these charts, your service, and the eventual asset. I can't explain why there has been so little response.

I will say that I am curious, but I don't know that I would buy assets that you offer. I am sure that some would. I just don't know how to calculate asset value for a revenue stream that relies upon ad revenue, as I think your proposal for the asset does. I am not saying that it has no value. i am sure it does. I am just saying that I have no idea how to calculate what that value might be. Perhaps others here think similarly.

The eventual revenue stream could end up being more than just the ad revenue I mentioned in the post. There could also be some types of premium services that could be offered over an HTTP/HTTPS API. For a simple example you could have a trade bot that buys when the MACD(12,26,9) crosses above the signal line and a service like mine could provide these current and historical values to a trade bot when it request them. I would offer a large selection of user configurable indicators and make available both current and historical data of these indicators to trade bots. The trade bots could be written in any programming language that provides a library or built in means for communicating over HTTP/HTTPS.

More complex data that I could also provide involve correlations, covariances, etc over a moving window between 2 different trade instruments or exchange pairs. I have more plans I would also like to implement after those I have mentioned, but what I have mentioned I think could be a useful start.
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superresistant

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #7171 on: July 28, 2014, 09:33:30 am »

OK, I am kind of excited about this, both from technical and marketing points.
You know how there is all this hoopla about Turing complete language?
For those who followed the NXTcoinsco "name change" to Tradebots, you will know I have been working on a tradebot language today, but first I thought just something simple, like >, < ==, but then I thought why not make it Turing complete?

I know you are saying that would take a long time to do, but I figured it was worth looking for a nice C interpreter.
...
So, I now have a Turing complete language for people to program their tradebots with!



lmao

Anyway, Ethereum is a scam remember ?
They take your money but have no obligation of delivering anything, ever. It was written in bold during the IPO.

ThomasVeil

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #7172 on: July 28, 2014, 09:43:17 am »

I'm getting a bit confused by the Smart Contracts and Ethereum stuff.
Isn't the following true: The Smart Contracts CfB and James are talking about are off-blockchain. But Ethereum wants to do them on-blockchain. Which is quite different. Turing complete and all this other stuff is much harder on-blockchain. Since one bad script can put the whole chain into an infinite loop. Secondly, getting data on the blockchain is a problem, since all forgers have to exactly get the same results from running those scripts at different times (i.e. getting random numbers is tough, but apparently the Ethereum team has found a solution recently).

While off chain SC's are great and useful (and I think that's also roughly what Ripple and BlackCoin are trying), it is not trustless. Since some single machine is running the script - and the script can be changed. You have to trust the scripter, and who's running it - or run it yourself.
NXT AT was the project that matched Ether's ideas: Once a script is verified to work, anyone can use it. And the chain is running it. That's why I hope this keeps going too.

Secondly: I'm pretty sure sites where Bitcoin tradingBots compete do exist, no? And they can copy each others ideas and "mutate" on them. Heck, I'm sure there are bots out there that mutate by themselves.
It would create interesting dynamics though: One successful script will just be copied by everybody, and then usually stops working, because not everyone can profit from the same trading tactic. So then bots would come up that prey on the tactics of the most used bots. Would be cool to see - for all I know though it has been very tough to make successful bots - even with the most complex bots that find their own patterns with Bayesian learning algos.

look this.
http://dotp2p.io/

Uh, nice ideas in there.
Since I'm just seeing that they (it's by bitshares) also collected 6000BTC as starting fund, like Ether did: Isn't it funny how NXT get's criticized for the IPO where the creator got 21BTC? And the few investors got some more money by selling. Well - Ether is at least 300 times worse. One single entity get's all the wealth - as if they instamined 100%. And everyone loves it.
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Come-from-Beyond

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #7173 on: July 28, 2014, 09:52:16 am »

Isn't the following true: The Smart Contracts CfB and James are talking about are off-blockchain.

No. Smart Contracts will work on-chain.
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bitcoinpaul

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #7174 on: July 28, 2014, 09:54:01 am »

Isn't the following true: The Smart Contracts CfB and James are talking about are off-blockchain.

No. Smart Contracts will work on-chain.

This. Don't confuse CfB's crazy ideas with James' crazy ideas.
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ThomasVeil

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #7175 on: July 28, 2014, 10:09:43 am »

Uh, ok I see. Confusion indeed. Someone mentioned Ether on the Turing-complete story.

So there were other off-chain projects about Smart Contracts, no?
What is the difference of CfB's project to NXT AT? Could we maybe pick a working-title for it?


Edit: Also just thinking about my "Ether is the 100% premine everyone loves" idea. If they use any of the funds to buy Ether themselves, isn't it a pyramid scheme then?
« Last Edit: July 28, 2014, 10:12:14 am by ThomasVeil »
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Berzerk

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #7176 on: July 28, 2014, 10:15:05 am »

Uh, ok I see. Confusion indeed. Someone mentioned Ether on the Turing-complete story.

So there were other off-chain projects about Smart Contracts, no?
What is the difference of CfB's project to NXT AT? Could we maybe pick a working-title for it?


Edit: Also just thinking about my "Ether is the 100% premine everyone loves" idea. If they use any of the funds to buy Ether themselves, isn't it a pyramid scheme then?

I don't understand everything myself;

AT: on-blockchain, in core, (nearly) everything you want
SC: on-blockchain, in core, specific types of transactions which are hardcoded into the core
Tradebots: off-blockchain, not in core, only for bots but you can do everything you want
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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #7177 on: July 28, 2014, 10:17:39 am »


What is the difference of CfB's project to NXT AT? Could we maybe pick a working-title for it?


https://nxtforum.org/nxt-promotion/catchy-name-for-smart-contracts-language/

More details on Smart Contracts: https://nxtforum.org/smart-contracts/express-your-wish-(smart-contracts)/
Also kushti is working on something somewhere between Smart Contracts and AT (as I understand it), which he is now calling Strict Agreements: https://nxtforum.org/automated-transactions/semi-automated-transactions/
« Last Edit: July 28, 2014, 10:27:14 am by valarmg »
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Berzerk

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #7178 on: July 28, 2014, 10:55:06 am »

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #7179 on: July 28, 2014, 12:06:05 pm »

What is the difference of CfB's project to NXT AT?
As I understand it, Smart Contracts won't be Turing Complete. It'll be simpler, more declarative/functional, more predictable in its resource needs, and possibly more efficient.

Also kushti is working on something somewhere between Smart Contracts and AT (as I understand it), which he is now calling Strict Agreements: https://nxtforum.org/automated-transactions/semi-automated-transactions/
I argued against having three different ways of doing the same thing in the core. I lost that battle, but I hope these three separate projects are at least communicating with each other. For example, if we add a new transaction  (eg for selling Aliases), and we want it to be automatable, will we have to update SC, AT and SA separately, or will there be a common module that connects the core Java with the various scripting languages? If basic error checking has to be replicated three times, that would seem to create a greater surface area for bugs.
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