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Latest Stable Nxt Client: Nxt 1.12.2

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KarlKarlsson

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #25620 on: November 14, 2015, 06:12:49 pm »


Hey guys!! What's the max number of transactions that could currently be included per block? Could you please update the wiki?

https://wiki.nxtcrypto.org/wiki/How_block_generation_works

It's exactly the first question...
It was 255 once, not sure if still up-to-date.
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Brangdon

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #25621 on: November 15, 2015, 11:03:42 am »

The formal vote on Nxt transaction fees is now open. See Jean-Luc's post at https://nxtforum.org/core-development-announcements/base-fee-poll/.

Please vote. This is important. It will affect the fees we pay to use Nxt.
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komputor

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #25622 on: November 15, 2015, 12:10:33 pm »

Voted. Also agree with JL that the blockchain is not meant to be storing service provider data but more an instrument to validate the integrity of their data. This, in my extremely humble opinion, seems to be a sustainable design philosophy that can still go hand in hand with long term principles of decentralization and trust reduction.

My 2 NXTs ;)
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Jimmy2011

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #25623 on: November 15, 2015, 03:30:35 pm »

Will Changelly (ShapeShift competitior) support Nxt?

https://changelly.com/
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TwinWinNerD

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #25624 on: November 15, 2015, 05:47:47 pm »

Reminder: You can sell NXT and receive a payout on PayPal/Neteller/SEPA on https://www.coinimal.com
=)

bidji29

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #25625 on: November 15, 2015, 08:31:52 pm »

Reminder: You can sell NXT and receive a payout on PayPal/Neteller/SEPA on https://www.coinimal.com
=)

Did getting on the frontpage of r/bitcoin increased your trafic?
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farl4bit

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #25626 on: November 15, 2015, 09:10:59 pm »

I think most people in crypto/bitcoin love the opportunity to make money, such as minen. Why would Litecoin, Dogecoin,etc.. have high marketcap's? They have nothing to more to offer.  Lot of people are here for the money. Nxt didn't had a big economic reason to join (because forging isnt really profitable) for a lot of people. I believe more rewards for forgers will attract more crypto users. I myself love every penny I get from forging. It like creating money out of the blue. Higher fees for securing the network and create a reason to join Nxt and to help make the blockchain smaller with prunable messages like Jean luc said is my choice.

The fiat costs of the fee is still really low, a year afo the fee in Nxt was about 10 times higher and still people traded, send messages etc.. And eventually JeanLuc can hardfork again if it doesnt work out or the price if NXT becomes real high. For now the best choice is to make the fees a bit higher IMHO.
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Ludom

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #25627 on: November 15, 2015, 10:18:26 pm »

I totally agree with you farl4bit about the need to give a real reward to forgers. It's also important to give reward to the Asset's investors.

But I don't see the growing of the reward as the result of the fees but the result of the transactions. The basis fee is 1 NXT since the begging of Nxt. Why should we change that now ?
My opinion is that 1 NXT is the best fee for the moment:
- No change (stability is a good thing when it's possible). It's easier/better to reduces as increase costs.
- It's very practical count reference

The volume of the fees increases naturally with the changes of NRS 1.7: the unprunable data costs more than 1 NXT. It's in my opinion enough for the moment.
(About the problem of jl777 multigateway, the problem is not for the costumer. Right now, the costumer don't pay the fees. The fees of multigateway are paied by James. The solution to this problem is to help James to pay the fees during the transition "unprunable to prunable messages". I'm a investor in James assets and I'm ok to see my future profit be lowered if Nxt's fees grows. The multigateway uses the Nxt's system and has to pay the price of the service. If SuperNET wants to make more profit, they need to use the cheapest solution (prunable messages). But we can find "financial solutions" during the transition.)

We really need James projects because it'll increase the volume of transactions. SuperNET is important for Nxt, it's the single project ready for launch that give good hope for forger's profitability.
AND we really need to attract other businesses to reduce the dependence of the SuperNET project.

I vote for a base fee of 1 NXT: right now there is a enough changes, if we choose stability for the basis fee, it's a good thing.
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farl4bit

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #25628 on: November 16, 2015, 08:21:44 am »

You have a good point there Ludom. I just try to figure out ways to make Nxt more popular. We could market these:

Nxt doubles the rewards for forgers!

Nxt keeps the same basis fee.

Transaction costs in Nxt are doubled. (but are still low in fiat)

First one sells better and could attract more people into Nxt and they need to buyin large in Nxt to forge (and that will rise the price). It's an incentive to join Nxt. The higher price will then reward the forgers more.

Just some brainstorm thoughts..

But on the other hand, the fees for unprunable data is already rising as you said. And 1 NXT fee is just very nice and psychological better.
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XIII

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #25629 on: November 16, 2015, 08:47:53 am »

Psychologically, even better to have a fractions of a nxt. 0.5, 0.512, 0.75 - whatever, good current step would be a less than 1 nxt. We may consider, that we had 1 nxt fee for a two years, so lowering fee could mean that NXT has a progress. And lets forget about f***ng fiat, we are building a new civilization without fiat and banks.
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Jean-Luc

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #25630 on: November 16, 2015, 08:51:28 am »

Low fees are a security risk. Forgers need a motivation to forge, and run nodes. Not sure about number of forgers, but number of nodes is slowly dropping.

The fact that the price has dropped 10 times, but the fee has not increased, opens the possibility for attacks or abuse that was previously considered too expensive. For example, since yesterday account NXT-2TQP-DBF8-L5WU-9L3D9 has been systematically buying all 4-digit alias names. At 1 NXT each, 10000 NXT for all of them is $62 at current prices. I don't know if this is a speculative investment, obscure business plan, or just abuse to keep them permanently unavailable for anyone else, but what was previously considered too expensive as an attack vector is now affordable because of the low fees.
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farl4bit

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #25631 on: November 16, 2015, 09:01:15 am »

Low fees are a security risk. Forgers need a motivation to forge, and run nodes. Not sure about number of forgers, but number of nodes is slowly dropping.

The fact that the price has dropped 10 times, but the fee has not increased, opens the possibility for attacks or abuse that was previously considered too expensive. For example, since yesterday account NXT-2TQP-DBF8-L5WU-9L3D9 has been systematically buying all 4-digit alias names. At 1 NXT each, 10000 NXT for all of them is $62 at current prices. I don't know if this is a speculative investment, obscure business plan, or just abuse to keep them permanently unavailable for anyone else, but what was previously considered too expensive as an attack vector is now affordable because of the low fees.

I noticed it too. What is your opinion on the base fee? Is 1 NXT base and extra costs for non-prunable data enough?
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farl4bit

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #25632 on: November 16, 2015, 09:08:08 am »

For psychologically reasons doubling the fees to 2 NXT is a big step. Mostly because in the Nxt client the fees are very visible:



vs 



My suggestion is to make the column "Fee" not visible in the client on the splash screen. People would still see the fee when they do transactions and when they dive deeper in the transactions (My Transactions), but make it invisible on the splash screen. The impact would be less and Nxt will be more about transferring NXT, assets, etc.. and less about the height of the fees.

Idea?  ::)
« Last Edit: November 16, 2015, 09:12:57 am by farl4bit »
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Jean-Luc

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #25633 on: November 16, 2015, 09:20:10 am »

I noticed it too. What is your opinion on the base fee? Is 1 NXT base and extra costs for non-prunable data enough?
I think base fee should increase. The psychological factor is indeed the only reason I see against that. But with fees becoming more diverse, based on specific transaction size, users would see a variety of fees in the Fee column anyway, and with the server-side fee calculation the fees can be made even less visible when submitting a transaction.
For aliases, as you see in the 1.7 changelog I had planned a fee of 2x the base fee, plus 2x the base fee for each 32 bytes after the first, for name+description length. For a short alias that would be just 2 NXT, maybe we should think of increasing that further, but then this would discourage alias use.
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XIII

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #25634 on: November 16, 2015, 09:50:22 am »

I honestly respect points of both of you Jean-Luc, farl4bit.

But objective reality is sometime different to our mind. First question, who is a real average users of cryptos (and also nxt) - ok, that was discussed before, that mostly traders and investors, but what else? Schoolchildren, for sure. Players mmo, gamblers, faucet adv clickers. They are those who start use crypto earlier than others. So, from this objective our primary goal needs to be to increase the user base. Other benefits will come after increasing a user base. And when I start to use NXT (it was in the end of 2013, it was significantly to me, that 1 nxt base fee - is not good, and psychologically I would like to have something like BTC fee - a fraction of main token).

Don't mind about price of the attack. This is not very cily I say, cause right now attack on nxt is not very expensive and what? NXT is not very popular and very expensive for now, so it is not interesting to attack it at all. Yesterday squatting of aliases is market answer to all, a price, a popularity, an investment value. I think it is a bad way to behave like a US FED, or european bank regulator, let it be objective. The price of BTC is a result of its nonregulational policy that are going in its community for now. Not sure, that it always be so free and democratic.

Now we have 220 hallmarked nodes, this number is quite stable.

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hash

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #25635 on: November 16, 2015, 10:08:36 am »

Interesting article by Vitalik Buterin on the topic of [Ethereum] base fees:

https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/02/01/on-transaction-fees-and-the-fallacy-of-market-based-solutions/

Brangdon

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #25636 on: November 16, 2015, 10:38:23 am »

Low fees are a security risk. Forgers need a motivation to forge, and run nodes. Not sure about number of forgers, but number of nodes is slowly dropping.
Currently around 44% of NXT is forging. I think its been roughly that level for a long time. Don't think it's ever been as high as 50%, for example. I figure the missing 56% is a mixture of whales who don't want to reveal their IP addresses by forging, or can't be bothered to keep a node up to date after forks; and minnows whose chance to forge is so low they don't bother to run a node themselves, and can't be bothered to renew their lease every 32k blocks. I don't think increasing the fees would make enough difference to them.

Spam protect is another matter, and does concern me. I'd be happy if acquiring a new alias costing 10 NXT or more. I doubt anyone needs them in bulk. On the other hand, changing the content of an alias you already own ought to be cheap (for short strings), so they can be used economically as oracles, to inject information into the blockchain. The difference is that acquiring a new alias consumes part of a global name space, and changing one's content doesn't.
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Cassius

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #25637 on: November 16, 2015, 11:02:00 am »

Low fees are a security risk. Forgers need a motivation to forge, and run nodes. Not sure about number of forgers, but number of nodes is slowly dropping.
Currently around 44% of NXT is forging. I think its been roughly that level for a long time. Don't think it's ever been as high as 50%, for example. I figure the missing 56% is a mixture of whales who don't want to reveal their IP addresses by forging, or can't be bothered to keep a node up to date after forks; and minnows whose chance to forge is so low they don't bother to run a node themselves, and can't be bothered to renew their lease every 32k blocks. I don't think increasing the fees would make enough difference to them.

Spam protect is another matter, and does concern me. I'd be happy if acquiring a new alias costing 10 NXT or more. I doubt anyone needs them in bulk. On the other hand, changing the content of an alias you already own ought to be cheap (for short strings), so they can be used economically as oracles, to inject information into the blockchain. The difference is that acquiring a new alias consumes part of a global name space, and changing one's content doesn't.

I probably have enough NXT to make forging worthwhile, but I don't. One reason is that I don't have a computer I'm happy leaving on 24/7 (and it needs to be on for 1440 blocks before I get a chance to forge). Another is the low rewards. Bottom line, if it's more lucrative and at least pays for power costs, I'll figure something out.

However, I also don't want to raise profitability in a short-sighted way. Sure we can put fees up, but right now that will just mean fewer transactions. In the long run, keeping fees competitive and increasing tx volumes is absolutely the way to go. If businesses aren't getting on board, Nxt just becomes a techie's plaything anyway. If we're serious about business adoption, then it makes sense to sound out businesses to learn what they want and what they value.
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farl4bit

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #25638 on: November 16, 2015, 11:09:37 am »

Currently around 44% of NXT is forging. I think its been roughly that level for a long time. Don't think it's ever been as high as 50%, for example. I figure the missing 56% is a mixture of whales who don't want to reveal their IP addresses by forging, or can't be bothered to keep a node up to date after forks; and minnows whose chance to forge is so low they don't bother to run a node themselves, and can't be bothered to renew their lease every 32k blocks. I don't think increasing the fees would make enough difference to them.

Are the ip-adresses revealed? Where? How?

Spam protect is another matter, and does concern me. I'd be happy if acquiring a new alias costing 10 NXT or more. I doubt anyone needs them in bulk. On the other hand, changing the content of an alias you already own ought to be cheap (for short strings), so they can be used economically as oracles, to inject information into the blockchain. The difference is that acquiring a new alias consumes part of a global name space, and changing one's content doesn't.

10 NXT for a alias is fine by me too. And in the MS there a low fees too, that's why all the popular names are set in coins already.
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Jean-Luc

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Re: Price speculation
« Reply #25639 on: November 16, 2015, 11:32:18 am »

Are the ip-adresses revealed? Where? How?
They are not revealed, a peer receiving a new block from your node will not know who generated it, the block may have originated from another node. Somebody listening to all your traffic will be able to tell that though, to protect from your ISP you can use Tor, or a combination of VPN and Tor. DNS queries are still sent out outside the Tor socks proxy, this is a known issue, it might be used to reveal your IP but with the rest of your traffic going over Tor it is still not easy to tell where the new block originated from.
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