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Author Topic: Nxt is NOT for Stakeholders, its for Users.  (Read 9130 times)

websioux

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Nxt is NOT for Stakeholders, its for Users.
« on: April 08, 2016, 05:51:48 pm »

This is a provocative title to express my opinion that Nxt stakeholders are not share holders of a company.

Marc is now promoting a lot this idea : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ThZ3PAWuKg

I originally agreed but the more I look the more I convinced this is totally wrong.

BCNext did not created Nxt such that it becomes a return on investment medium for the original stakeholders.

Have a look if you don't trust me : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=303898.0

He needed stakeholders to distribute the original coins to people, such that his POS hypothesis and protocol could be live tested.
The fund collected were just an arbitrary way to decide how to distribute the coin. He judged this to be the best alternative available.
He originally wanted to have at least 4000 people to distribute to ! We know it didn't happent this way, the 4000 were finally only 73.

Then, off course, the consequence of a POS protocol is that the blockchain security level is caped to the cost for an attacker to acquire a 51% stake.
So the only way BCNext was interest in the coin price was that it defines the security level of the system.

BCNext created Nxt but he doesn't own the project anymore. So anyone can do what he wants, including suggesting others to pursue other goals than those of the original creator. It's ok if people acts like that.

But I'm trying to recall you, what I think the original goal was. It is my right as well, and I sum it up this way :

Why do you create a currency ?

...

... Please meditate a little bit ...

...

Money is, by essence, nothing else than the intimate value each user gives to an artificial medium. Therefore, there is no other valid reason to
create a money system than to provide a tool which existence equally benefit those who choose to use it for their business. If they
hold the coin or not, from the creator point of view, they are all equal.

...

... Are you a creator ? / Are you a speculator ?

...

If you buy to resell, or if you hold to increase your portfolio worth : you are speculator.
If you buy stuffs with Nxt (or plan to), Sell stuffs with Nxt (or plan to), use Nxt to speculate on assets, if you are a core or client developer, if you are talking out there about Nxt : your are a Nxt creator.

The only thing here, that creators have organized for those who hold the coin is the consensus about the forging fee to compensate for the cost of the technical infrastructure and to mitigate spam. The fact that the security of the coin (= the cost to acquire 51%) has, at start, benefited from the speculation about the future coin value, is only a chance, or perhaps the ultimate failure in the defense of the enemy that makes it possible that a POS coin can ever survive. But it must not make us loose the fundamental idea that the coin value is nothing else than the one users are willing to give when they use the tool.

What is a coin that is not used to do anything but still has a value on exchanges ? It's a collectible.. It has only value for collectors and speculators. By definition, it is dead !

So are you Ying or Yang ?

A coin is money when it is used to exchange things that have value .. now.., the more exchanges of this kind, the more it is a tool, the more it is money. The price given by speculation is not the price we want it to look at. We do not care about that price. We do not care about the valuation speculators give to our young creation, they are not at all our target. We only care because we are exploiting their cupidity for our security. The whole point of this cryptocurrency endeavor is too start it all over again. Not to profit from being first, but to build a system that is way more fair than the one humanity is currently jailed in.

Truth is that we are all both creators and speculators, their will always be both in human.

That is the POS ingenuity! It exploits both faces of humanity. However, every day, every hour, you choose how much energy you put on which side of your reality.

Marc, stop thinking Nxt stakeholders are shareholders of a company. Think Ying, less Yang. You have invested too much value in Nxt. Sell more, continue the work with us, build assets and be Ying again.
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wolffang

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Re: Nxt is NOT for Stakeholders, its for Users.
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2016, 06:00:50 pm »

Quote

Marc, stop thinking Nxt stakeholders are shareholders of a company. Think Ying, less Yang. You have invested too much value in Nxt. Sell more, continue the work with us, build assets and be Ying again.


I think NXT is ALSO for stakeholders to see it as an investment, next to the idea to make it work and have lot's of users do their stuff on it.

Benefits on both sides.
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websioux

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Re: Nxt is NOT for Stakeholders, its for Users.
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2016, 08:36:39 am »

I think you can not have permanently both sides. The more it looks like an investment the less it is good to be used as a token and reverse. But what is the ultimate goal ?

Holders already have the deflationary economical model that comes out of the strictly fixed supply. That is the maximum you can engineer for the system to still be designed as an exchange of value token.
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Marc De Mesel

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Re: Nxt is NOT for Stakeholders, its for Users.
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2016, 09:19:51 am »

Websioux, I really appreciate you try to let me see things from a different perspective.

I think you are right that you can build a cryptocurrency so that the users are not owners.



When you buy a product or service, you pay for it, but don't expect to have a say in it's development.

Sure, you may not like certain changes, but you recognize it's their call to make.

You just change product/service if you don't like it.


You can indeed apply the same logic to a coin.

That means for me, since I have the coin to see the value go up, and the amount of users expand, but I no longer believe the right decisions are made to get there, it's time for me to switch.



Something broke with me when NXT 2.0 was revealed.

My heart isn't in it anymore.

Logically I get the argument that scaling is the big theme in crypto, and that investors may value NXT a lot higher if NXT solves this.

I also get that childchains are a great service.



But the conflict of interest between Jean Luc, Bas and me as a coinholder is starting to show real bad.

With NXT 2.0 our biggest attraction, the NXT asset exchange, is nuked. Why does he not care?  ???



I'm starting to believe that Nxt has become a technology demo, and that JL is aiming to sell private licenses to companies, of which he cut me out as a coinholder.

Only then all his actions start to make sense for me, why he doesn't care about existing users, changes api's, fees for the sake of code quality. Launches unuserfriendly new features, just to be first.


I lost trust in him, and also in Bas.

I feel used.

saladin89

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Re: Nxt is NOT for Stakeholders, its for Users.
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2016, 09:47:31 am »

marc you are misinformed, nxt 2.0 will in fact help the asset exchange and make it even better, I am too tired to post the details hope someone else does.
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Marc De Mesel

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Re: Nxt is NOT for Stakeholders, its for Users.
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2016, 09:56:27 am »

marc you are misinformed, nxt 2.0 will in fact help the asset exchange and make it even better, I am too tired to post the details hope someone else does.

I know the arguments but I get the impression we lost more asset issuers than we gained, why is that?

Are these people also misinformed, or is NXT 2.0 actually not good for these asset issuers?



An investment is like a relationship, at first you love it, you try to make the best of it, and be positive, and constructive.

But if things are too negative for too long, suddenly there is a point where you switch, and say, that's it.

Either, you change, or I'm gone.

remix

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Re: Nxt is NOT for Stakeholders, its for Users.
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2016, 10:20:38 am »

marc you are misinformed, nxt 2.0 will in fact help the asset exchange and make it even better, I am too tired to post the details hope someone else does.

I know the arguments but I get the impression we lost more asset issuers than we gained, why is that?

Are these people also misinformed, or is NXT 2.0 actually not good for these asset issuers?


Trading assets with BTC was requested by asset issuers. Scalability is also a plus for the asset exchange.

Maybe Nxt 2.0 could market itself as a highly scalable asset trading platform, where assets are traded mainly with BTC. If it succeeds, the value of fNXT will go up, which would compensate for the fact that there is no reason to have NXT to buy assets.
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Hachoir

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Re: Nxt is NOT for Stakeholders, its for Users.
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2016, 11:04:51 am »

marc you are misinformed, nxt 2.0 will in fact help the asset exchange and make it even better, I am too tired to post the details hope someone else does.
Tell them yourself or shut up
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Marc De Mesel

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Re: Nxt is NOT for Stakeholders, its for Users.
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2016, 11:09:47 am »

Trading assets with BTC was requested by asset issuers. Scalability is also a plus for the asset exchange.

Maybe Nxt 2.0 could market itself as a highly scalable asset trading platform, where assets are traded mainly with BTC. If it succeeds, the value of fNXT will go up, which would compensate for the fact that there is no reason to have NXT to buy assets.

I think that's very good part indeed of NXT 2.0

But why are people like coinomat who want exactly that not embracing NXT 2.0 but instead leaving?

Sure, part of it is probably the ICO money Waves will get but it's also because Coinomat no longer trusts JL to take the right decision that are in his interests, as he said literally on this forum.


Where are the people that talk in the media or on bitcointalk about NXT 2.0, like they did when Ethereum announced stuff they plan to make?

Talk about NXT dropped to almost zero if you haven't noticed.


Where are we going to get the money to attract all these people to NXT 2.0?

Will Bas and Jean Luc, when they dilute coinholders for a million or so from the ICO, succeed in this?


Because that's the plan with the ICO. To give them $1 million from us and let them spend at their will.

Did they prove in the past that they succeeded in attracting more users?



Statements that no money was spend in the past on marketing, is not true.

We have had serious momentum with NXT, all kinds of people and wales throwing money, energy and time at marketing NXT.


But Jean-Luc with every new update failed to capitalize on this, as he always succeeded in chasing away some existing users, and the new features were not user friendly enough to retain new users.

This dynamic needs to change.

Please.

« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 11:14:12 am by Marc De Mesel »
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websioux

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Re: Nxt is NOT for Stakeholders, its for Users.
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2016, 11:35:42 am »

You are still thinking as if it was a company. All you say is correct if this was a company.
Companies also have to make sometimes difficult choices that kicks out customers that were not on the same wavelength  :D and only there, investors can argue based on profit reasoning.
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Marc De Mesel

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Re: Nxt is NOT for Stakeholders, its for Users.
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2016, 12:32:09 pm »

You are still thinking as if it was a company. All you say is correct if this was a company.
Companies also have to make sometimes difficult choices that kicks out customers that were not on the same wavelength  :D and only there, investors can argue based on profit reasoning.

Even if I accept I am a user, and not an owner, and have no say in development, I'm still owning the coin for a certain kind of usage.

Since the coin has monetary value, I obviously want it to go up as a user, even if it is only to better secure the network. Is this not a valid user expectation?


I also want to be able to do more with it over time as a user. Like have more people accept it, or have more quality assets I can buy with it.

If the amount of other users and assets goes down, which is the case, than even as just a user I can be unhappy and conclude that whatever the decision makers are doing, is not working, right?


« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 12:45:11 pm by Marc De Mesel »
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wolffang

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Re: Nxt is NOT for Stakeholders, its for Users.
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2016, 12:39:04 pm »

I also invested to get profit out of it, why else invest?

And I chose NXT for the technique features and community.
But now there is no clear view which direction to go and divided community makes the future of nxt very uncertain.

Why not combine the good things like a win win situation? There is alot of discussion But i still see no ending and agreements on which we all can focus on.
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Marc De Mesel

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Re: Nxt is NOT for Stakeholders, its for Users.
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2016, 12:43:49 pm »

I also invested to get profit out of it, why else invest?

And I chose NXT for the technique features and community.
But now there is no clear view which direction to go and divided community makes the future of nxt very uncertain.

Why not combine the good things like a win win situation? There is alot of discussion But i still see no ending and agreements on which we all can focus on.

Yes, the total lack of response of Jean-Luc is very notable.

I have yet to see the first proposal of Jean-Luc or Riker to start doing things different somehow.


« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 12:52:03 pm by Marc De Mesel »
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Joseph123

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Re: Nxt is NOT for Stakeholders, its for Users.
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2016, 01:14:31 pm »

yes i would like to see NXT big again, we need to reach 20m$ fast
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websioux

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Re: Nxt is NOT for Stakeholders, its for Users.
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2016, 01:19:29 pm »

I also invested to get profit out of it, why else invest?
Me too but,

Why else invest : to make it happen or to be able to do things where you typically need Nxt for.

You can not engineer a currency to make profit from, or if you do, expect me to tell anyone I can that you are engineering a ponzi.
Do you understand that? You can not have in your design a set up meant to drive profit to the earliest at the detriment of those you are trying to attract.
Your design must be neutral and only focus on the largest adoption of the system.

The fact that some may profit from the transition is not of your business.

POS & POW exploits the greed of people, they nicely call it market incentive... whatever... but the goal of the coin is not to make you rich. It is to be used instead of fiat.
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wolffang

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Re: Nxt is NOT for Stakeholders, its for Users.
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2016, 01:31:02 pm »

Quote
Me too but,

Why else invest : to make it happen or to be able to do things where you typically need Nxt for.

You need users and marketing for that. There You need investments and every investor wants to make profit. Oherwise no investors will help and NXT will become a hobby project instead of worldwide used.
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Riker

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Re: Nxt is NOT for Stakeholders, its for Users.
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2016, 02:00:14 pm »

I also invested to get profit out of it, why else invest?

And I chose NXT for the technique features and community.
But now there is no clear view which direction to go and divided community makes the future of nxt very uncertain.

Why not combine the good things like a win win situation? There is alot of discussion But i still see no ending and agreements on which we all can focus on.

Yes, the total lack of response of Jean-Luc is very notable.

I have yet to see the first proposal of Jean-Luc or Riker to start doing things different somehow.

Marc, how about we setup a Skype session where the core devs will perform harakiri in front of the camera ?
Do you consider this as "doing thing different somehow" ?
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Riker

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Re: Nxt is NOT for Stakeholders, its for Users.
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2016, 02:09:37 pm »

I also invested to get profit out of it, why else invest?

And I chose NXT for the technique features and community.
But now there is no clear view which direction to go and divided community makes the future of nxt very uncertain.

Why not combine the good things like a win win situation? There is alot of discussion But i still see no ending and agreements on which we all can focus on.

Yes, the total lack of response of Jean-Luc is very notable.

I have yet to see the first proposal of Jean-Luc or Riker to start doing things different somehow.

Marc, how about we setup a Skype session where the core devs will perform harakiri in front of the camera ?
Do you consider this as "doing thing different somehow" ?

Or alternatively how about using this technique: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aV2DLkDPwM8&feature=youtu.be#t=44s 
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blackyblack1

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Re: Nxt is NOT for Stakeholders, its for Users.
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2016, 02:24:19 pm »

marc you are misinformed, nxt 2.0 will in fact help the asset exchange and make it even better, I am too tired to post the details hope someone else does.

I know the arguments but I get the impression we lost more asset issuers than we gained, why is that?

Are these people also misinformed, or is NXT 2.0 actually not good for these asset issuers?


Trading assets with BTC was requested by asset issuers. Scalability is also a plus for the asset exchange.

Maybe Nxt 2.0 could market itself as a highly scalable asset trading platform, where assets are traded mainly with BTC. If it succeeds, the value of fNXT will go up, which would compensate for the fact that there is no reason to have NXT to buy assets.
Please let me know how do you think BTC sidechain will work? I do not see a good way to make it.
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bcdev

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Re: Nxt is NOT for Stakeholders, its for Users.
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2016, 02:32:36 pm »

Please let me know how do you think BTC sidechain will work? I do not see a good way to make it.
There are many possibilities:
1) This algorithm: https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/what-if-i-told-you-nxt-could-go-to-eur-parity-within-90-days/
2) This algorithm: https://nubits.com/about/white-paper
3) This algorithm: https://bitshares.org/technology/price-stable-cryptocurrencies/
4) This algorithm: https://github.com/jl777/SuperNET/tree/master/peggy
5) Physical centralized pegging
...

It's just a question of choosing the right solution. :)
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