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Nxt energy efficiency is insignifiant
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Author Topic: Nxt energy efficiency is insignifiant  (Read 5917 times)

websioux

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Nxt energy efficiency is insignifiant
« on: March 10, 2015, 12:30:13 pm »

Of course Nxt (PoS) is far more efficient than Bitcoin (PoW) : https://nxtforum.org/infrastructure-committee/nxt-energy-and-cost-efficiency-paper-update/
But this is an insignifiant argument in favor of Nxt regarding mass adoption because even the energy cost of Bitcoin is in the end very small.

Bitcoin energy consomption is high if you consider it today per transaction or per user because only few people use Bitcoin.

But Bitcoin is meant to be used by the 7 billion humans, and if it would, the cost would be roughly the same than the one of today (cost ~= cost of PoW)

Even if you take 1W/GH and the today level of 340 000 000 GH/s, you end up with  0.048 W per human, or 1.16 Wh per human per day. 1.16 Wh = 172.8 J.
So if you take 60kg as an average human weight, Bitcoin is only using for its PoW the enegy it takes for each human to travel 28 cm every day.

Can every human devotes a 30 cm move, each day, for their ability to use a decentralized world money ? Considering all the freedom and equality improvements it brings with it, I'm sure the answer is "Yes of course".
So with NXT it's only a move of 0.15 mm, ok, it's far much much better but who cares ? This is not this argument that can turn out some Bitcoin network effect in favor of NXT.

I just thought about it and wanted to let you know.

 
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achim

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Re: Nxt energy efficiency is insignifiant
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2015, 12:45:56 pm »

You divide  energy consumption of Bitcoin today (few users) by every human.
It doesn't make sense.
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KarlKarlsson

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Re: Nxt energy efficiency is insignifiant
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2015, 12:52:23 pm »

And now divide Nxt's energy consumption by the amount of human on the earth and you will see that Nxt is still more efficient than Bitcoin  :)
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McFly

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Re: Nxt energy efficiency is insignifiant
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2015, 12:56:40 pm »

Quote
ok, it's far much much better but who cares ?

Well, I care - and I hope a lot more people do!  From an environmental point of view every single watt of wasted energy matters.
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achim

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Re: Nxt energy efficiency is insignifiant
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2015, 12:59:19 pm »

And 340MW is A LOT
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jones

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Re: Nxt energy efficiency is insignifiant
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2015, 01:18:43 pm »

340 MW is close to whats being produced by the Hoover dam, and that's powering three states over here in America, that's quite a bit.

Plus if bitcoin gets bigger reach, mining competition will most likely scale too, so there would be many times more than that already huge 340 MW.

Now take nxt, which barely uses any more energy than it takes to run a computer normally and that's a pretty big difference in the long run.
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dude

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Re: Nxt energy efficiency is insignifiant
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2015, 01:35:35 pm »

The way I see it, Nxt efficiency is just coincidence of using PoS to avoid mining power centralization, it surely is a great plus, but it's not the main feature.

With generalization about "everyone in the world" using or doing something you can come up with crazy numbers for anything, even if that's ever going to happen, it's a very long way away.
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v39453

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Re: Nxt energy efficiency is insignifiant
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2015, 01:37:10 pm »

But Bitcoin is meant to be used by the 7 billion humans, and if it would, the cost would be roughly the same than the one of today (cost ~= cost of PoW)

Mining costs are not constant. Bitcoin with 100 times the current market cap and the same mining costs would be 100 times easier to attack.
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petar87

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Re: Nxt energy efficiency is insignifiant
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2015, 01:39:49 pm »

25btc * 6 * 24h * 300$ = 1 080 000$
This is how much new money needs to enter bitcoin every day (without any holder selling) just to keep price at 300$, at 3000$ would be x10 etc... If inflation would suddenly stop price would be a lot higher I think. At nxt because we don't have inflation to pay for concensus I expect for price to hold better over time
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bizz

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Re: Nxt energy efficiency is insignifiant
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2015, 01:46:29 pm »

Bitcoin energy consomption is high if you consider it today per transaction or per user because only few people use Bitcoin.

But Bitcoin is meant to be used by the 7 billion humans, and if it would, the cost would be roughly the same than the one of today (cost ~= cost of PoW)


Why would you think that? I imagine if Bitcoin is used by 7 billion people price & diff & energy used would skyrocket.

Mining hardware will never be more efficient than a simple NXT node doing the same job for a lot less.

And since we are looking into the future (where the whole world is using BTC/NXT) it's not insignificant. It's drastically significant.
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TheCoinWizard

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Re: Nxt energy efficiency is insignifiant
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2015, 02:23:45 pm »

I agree with the argument bizz brings up... +1

Of course Nxt (PoS) is far more efficient than Bitcoin (PoW) : https://nxtforum.org/infrastructure-committee/nxt-energy-and-cost-efficiency-paper-update/

it's far much much better but who cares ?

I care as an investor that my cryptocurrency isn't being inflated.
I care as a human that I don't leave a nuclear wasteland to the next generations.
I care as a freedom lover as POW, due to mass production, leads to centralization, whereas POS leads to decentralization.


So I care3  ;)
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websioux

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Re: Nxt energy efficiency is insignifiant
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2015, 02:46:53 pm »

Mining costs are not constant. Bitcoin with 100 times the current market cap and the same mining costs would be 100 times easier to attack.

True, somewhere mining cost depends on market cap, and its not much different to the mining reward.
Cost in Wh ~= what the mining reward permits to buy in Wh.
So it will go to a pic (hopefully) and will decrease since in the end mining reward goes to zero (I don't know if the pic is in the past or in the future).
I do not know also if this pic cost will ever be 10, 100 or 1000 time bigger than it is now.
If it goes to 1000 times then, yes it energy might become an argument. but we already are at 1BTC = 300 000 $ !

Why would you think that? I imagine if Bitcoin is used by 7 billion people price & diff & energy used would skyrocket.

It's not because it has 100x more users that it's priced 100x more.. It depends how much units the new ones want to store.

And since we are looking into the future (where the whole world is using BTC/NXT) it's not insignificant. It's drastically significant.

I'm not looking at it from a "God point of view" but from a "new user point of view" and also from the point of view that you already have a solution used by 1000 times more people.
Why should I care about your technology ?
When know one that cost 10 times less than my modem and you'd like me to use yours because it's 2000 time energy more efficient ?
"oh Shit... Bitcoin "cost me" 365 Wh per year (3 cents / year !)" 
"Hey I have a solution, you should use NXT is will cost you 2000 times less..!! "

To be environmentally friendly, you'd better shut down your modem one night per year instead of spending time to learn how to use NXT instead of Bitcoin.

NXT attractivity strength is not in the energy field exept for idealists or simply said "very logical minds".
But mass people are not idealists and not at all very logic minded. They'll just think "can somone tells me if it is good or bad".
Who will then say that its bad in term of energy if it represents a waste of 3cents or even 3$ per year per human ?

These crypto stuffs once adopted will affect every one life, economy, politics etc... it so big, that the predicted costs remain irrelevant even with the technic of PoW.
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petar87

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Re: Nxt energy efficiency is insignifiant
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2015, 02:55:44 pm »

If people would use mining for home heating and such you might be right.
But still there will be huge difference at who controls mining power. At bitcoin that would be people with heating devices who don't have to hold bitcoins and as such they could "vote" for e.g. removing hard cap or bigger inflation or some other decisions that don't benefit long term holders and bitcoin.
And at nxt mining power would be only among holders and they would vote in best interest of their investment.
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bcdev

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Re: Nxt energy efficiency is insignifiant
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2015, 02:58:26 pm »

If people would use mining for home heating and such you might be right.
It's much more efficient to heat a home with electricity by using a heat pump. Unfortunately it cannot be used as a PoW.
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petar87

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Re: Nxt energy efficiency is insignifiant
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2015, 02:58:47 pm »

I care as a human that I don't leave a nuclear wasteland to the next generations.
I don't care about next generations, polution etc... just saying
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petar87

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Re: Nxt energy efficiency is insignifiant
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2015, 03:00:35 pm »

If people would use mining for home heating and such you might be right.
It's much more efficient to heat a home with electricity by using a heat pump. Unfortunately it cannot be used as a PoW.
At the moment yes, but if there is real need for something like this it is possible to produce.
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bcdev

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Re: Nxt energy efficiency is insignifiant
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2015, 03:08:34 pm »

If people would use mining for home heating and such you might be right.
It's much more efficient to heat a home with electricity by using a heat pump. Unfortunately it cannot be used as a PoW.
At the moment yes, but if there is real need for something like this it is possible to produce.
No, it's not. Computer transforms almost 100% power into heat, creating a byproduct called computations.
A heat pump is more efficient than a computer in converting power into heat, but does not create computations as a byproduct. Hence it cannot be used as a PoW, no matter how many engineers start working on this problem. ;)
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petar87

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Re: Nxt energy efficiency is insignifiant
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2015, 03:16:42 pm »

If people would use mining for home heating and such you might be right.
It's much more efficient to heat a home with electricity by using a heat pump. Unfortunately it cannot be used as a PoW.
At the moment yes, but if there is real need for something like this it is possible to produce.
No, it's not. Computer transforms almost 100% power into heat, creating a byproduct called computations.
A heat pump is more efficient than a computer in converting power into heat, but does not create computations as a byproduct. Hence it cannot be used as a PoW, no matter how many engineers start working on this problem. ;)
I am not sure how do you think almost 100% into heat? I am not electrical engineer but all power is directly translated to heat no matter if there is some computations or not...
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lcharles123

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Re: Nxt energy efficiency is insignifiant
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2015, 03:26:33 pm »

If you want an argument in favor of NXT: it is a great financial tool for anyone looking to start a business. It is a way to get secure funding and pay investors.
https://nxtforum.org/index.php?topic=8240.msg165592#msg165592

She is far ahead of his time, like the bitcoin was when the network had no 1 TH.
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bcdev

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Re: Nxt energy efficiency is insignifiant
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2015, 04:39:52 pm »

I am not sure how do you think almost 100% into heat? I am not electrical engineer but all power is directly translated to heat no matter if there is some computations or not...
I agree with you.
"Almost 100%" is 99,99% is because there is always some slight loss due to radiation, sound, ethernet... "Almost" is just me being too precise.
I agree that computations are free when it comes to thermodynamics.
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