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Marc De Mesel

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Re: Business Model For NXT: Smart Fees
« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2016, 04:54:47 pm »


There's a slight difference (if I undestood it correctly): DASH is POW, and not all the coins have been created, yet.
There are about 6,300,000 DASH right now and, in the end, there will be around 19,000,000 DASH
So, obviously, it's easy for someone to get revenues from there, at least as long as new DASH coins are been mined, inflation takes place and you can take advantadge of that new supply.
I wonder what will happen when all the coins are finally mined and nodes, devs, etc. have to rely just on transaction fees (like Nxt today) ::)

The idea could be good, we could use Nxt voting system to allocate those fees, but maybe the money collected is not enought at the moment.

Anyway, I think you can't take all the portion (not even the bigger portion) of the forging fees, specially now that we are planning to split the original coin and have fnxt only for forging. Interest in fnxt would decrease and maybe the security of the platform too if forger don't get some kind of revenue (eventhought nobody becomes rich by forging. I forge - with my limited stake- just to support the Nxt ecosystem ;) ).

In a previous message in this thread, I made some really rought calculations based on actual usage (I think that there's an average of 2transactions/min).
But the more transactions, the bigger the fee per block. And much more transactions per minute are expected in v2.0, aren't they? ;D

https://nxtforum.org/index.php?topic=10828.msg209810#msg209810
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1C2lgUpSLxUJma3KsJV-lTs0B5mANolZqQZiS8StwVtI/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=0

Fees can be jacked up a lot, $7 to issue an asset? Add 2 zero's ($1000) and it's still 3 zero's less than issuing an asset on the stock market ($100k). Then you can offer 'premium asset' with extra features, not for $1000 but for $10k (say with KYC interface), and also a 'discount asset' not for $1000 but for $100 (for example only long names, limited features). Just giving some examples. Same you can do with currencies, the aliases, shuffling etc. Also fees can be made recurring instead of 1 time, which brings in a lot more long term while easier to pay for the user.

Point is that the fees should not be based on how much data it takes, but what the competition is asking and just be competitive. This allows for huge margins as we are competing with the still very expensive financial industry. But it also requires focus on marketing, user friendliness and legal framework to be able to ask such fees.

websioux

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Re: Business Model For NXT: Smart Fees
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2016, 05:22:40 pm »

@devlux - Yes, pay on delivery is a very good option. Any option that makes business easier always looks good to me :)

Great post from you there : https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/(poll)-the-ipo-idea/msg214006/#msg214006
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devlux

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Re: Business Model For NXT: Smart Fees
« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2016, 05:24:12 pm »

@devlux - Yes, pay on delivery is a very good option. Any option that makes business easier always looks good to me :)

Great post from you there : https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/(poll)-the-ipo-idea/msg214006/#msg214006

Thanks!  Glad to know my voice is being heard.
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Marc De Mesel

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Re: Business Model For NXT: Smart Fees
« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2016, 05:38:36 pm »

Why people will pay our respectable fees is:

because we have a network effect going, what use is it to issue an asset on an exchange nobody uses?
because we are the most decentralised and secure network, no agressor can take down the network and so your assets and money can be fully owned by yourself and can always be transacted
because we are the only one with a currency with no inflation, a strong currency is the foundation of a strong economy

And I would add:
because we are stable, big changes like api changes, changes to fees, changes to currency supply, need to be approved by a big majority of stakeholders
because we are very user friendly, we are apple style products, interface designed from a stupid user perspective



What public cryptoplatform or private blockchain can offer what we can? What bank will be able to compete with us?

None, but by splitting nxt into 2 coins we risk losing these qualities, alienating our asset exchange users and turning forging into a specialization likely done by only a few. 



websioux

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Re: Business Model For NXT: Smart Fees
« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2016, 06:17:05 pm »

I'm not sure Marc where you want to add fees. I watched you videos.

Aside from the difficulty of a fair distribution of the gains, the artificial fee model reduces the scope of viable business applications. Even to pay the nodes, the fee are not fully legitimate because businesses can pay for them, like they pay for electricity and hosting. There are only legitimate to mitigate spam & abuse. Because without them, you have spam just for fun..
I think JL made a good job on the actual fee model, it looks well balanced to me (at current nxt price).

It means that artificially fee model 1. reduces the scope, and 2. opens the door for competiting models with cheaper fees.

If this economy was developed, then businesses not only would pay for nodes infrastructure but may fight to pay core devs too, just to let everyone know about it.
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farl4bit

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Re: Business Model For NXT: Smart Fees
« Reply #25 on: March 30, 2016, 06:20:32 pm »


None, but by splitting nxt into 2 coins we risk losing these qualities, alienating our asset exchange users and turning forging into a specialization likely done by only a few.

Maybe I misunderstood, but with Nxt 2.0 fNXT holders forge all the childchains, so they have more incentive to forge than people have now. They earn multiple times the amount as they do now, because they get fees from all the childchains. Right?  ???
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Brangdon

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Re: Business Model For NXT: Smart Fees
« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2016, 06:43:43 pm »


None, but by splitting nxt into 2 coins we risk losing these qualities, alienating our asset exchange users and turning forging into a specialization likely done by only a few.

Maybe I misunderstood, but with Nxt 2.0 fNXT holders forge all the childchains, so they have more incentive to forge than people have now. They earn multiple times the amount as they do now, because they get fees from all the childchains. Right?  ???
Not necessarily. It's true they forge all the chains, but we don't know if that will mean greater fee revenue. Nxt 2.0 is about scalability, and that means child chains need relatively few resources (since almost everything gets pruned), so spam is less of a problem. NXT fees could potentially be 1/50th of what they are now.

(This is assuming that ChildChainBlocks are created by forgers, so they get their fNXT fees back. If that doesn't happen, then the NXT fees depend on transaction volume. If each mother chain transaction costs 1 fNXT, and there is on average 1 child chain transaction per minute, then each child chain transaction has to cost the equivalent of 1 fNXT in NXT. It can only be 1/50th of that if there are 50 NXT transactions per minute. More likely the ChildChainBlocks will be created by forgers, in which case the fNXT fees don't apply and the NXT fees can go low.)

Basically, in the short term (12 months from Nxt 2.0 going live?) I wouldn't expect forging revenue to increase because of 2.0 and it might drop enormously. I expect people will still be forging fNXT either for altruistic reasons, or else to provide security for their NXT, assets etc. Unless we hike the fees for other reasons - but in the past the community has resisted that.

Also, it'll be a while (months?) before we create a second child chain.
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Joggy1986

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Re: Business Model For NXT: Smart Fees
« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2016, 08:47:19 pm »

Let's keep tapping into that momentum. But please don't touch 1:1 NXT:fNxt distribution. :P

Isn't the whole first distribution the thing that is bothering Nxt since the start? People who missed it are jealous and don't want to join, because they think the big stakeholders are running Nxt. I think that is one of the reasons Nxt isn't doing as good as it should.

When we do 1:1 NXT:fNxt distribution we keep the problem:
- Not many new people will join
- No new money get injected
- There will be no fund for developers

At current prices , its not difficult at all to build up a large share of NXT . I don't  think the problem lies with the relatively small ipo of NXT . We have beautiful futures on the NXT blockchain but that does not mean that we have created a reason for investors to invest in NXT at the moment . Only an event like an IPO, a mega crowdfund or NXT adoption by a large company will generate interest from investors.
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