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Nxt Discussion => Nxt General Discussion => Topic started by: bcdev on November 06, 2015, 04:14:03 pm

Title: Maybe it's time to open the NRS development?
Post by: bcdev on November 06, 2015, 04:14:03 pm
Maybe it's time to open NRS development? Right now it's completely opaque, it's impossible to audit changes to the core until a release comes out.
AFAIK the point of keeping development process closed was to prevent clones - I'd say it no longer applies, the clones are very small compared to NXT. Clones aren't a threat to Bitcoin, they won't be a threat to NXT.

The recent API compatibility fuckup may not be completely preventable by an open development model, but it'd surely allow someone to spot the disaster before the release.
Title: Re: Maybe it's time to open the NRS development?
Post by: yassin54 on November 06, 2015, 04:18:35 pm
Now I thought.  ::)
(http://img.imagesia.com/fichiers/12w/reflechir_imagesia-com_12w9a_small.jpg) (http://imagesia.com/reflechir_12w9a)
 :D
Title: Re: Maybe it's time to open the NRS development?
Post by: box1413 on November 06, 2015, 04:57:57 pm
i think an open model we'd have to factor in much longer delays on releases, which means less innovation over time. imagine if there were many other core devs with their hands in the cookie jar, it would take forever to release features.

at the moment, I feel nxt is in a good place with a small community as that helps with less bickering over core changes while integrating innovative features. can u imagine if nxt got even as big as ltc, the amount of bickering there would be on certain core changes. right now the innovative features nxt has is in a good place for us users to test and break now before it really gets big.
Title: Re: Maybe it's time to open the NRS development?
Post by: yassin54 on November 06, 2015, 05:05:55 pm
at the moment, I feel nxt is in a good place with a small community as that helps with less bickering over core changes while integrating innovative features
Good point.  ;)
Thanks for reply!  :)
Title: Re: Maybe it's time to open the NRS development?
Post by: box1413 on November 06, 2015, 05:24:23 pm
i think an open model we'd have to factor in much longer delays on releases, which means less innovation over time.
I fail to see this connection. Can you elaborate?

im taking it as comparing it to a gigantic corporation like Microsost of Google. They are big, but they can't move as fast as a startup business testing out new features.

Say for example if Google decided to change up how their internal systems are built by revamping the entire thing. They would really upset many stakeholders as so much has already been invested into the system. But if a startup was do something similar, its less of a push back from people that already invested into the system (supernet, secureae, voxelnauts, etc.), sure its going to be upsetting for the early integrator, but its less collateral damage on such a smaller scale. end result they will just have to update their code.


Title: Re: Maybe it's time to open the NRS development?
Post by: bcdev on November 06, 2015, 05:35:56 pm
Your comparison is wrong. Compare NXT to open-source projects like Linux, KDE, Gnome, GNU, Gimp.
It's very incorrect to say that these projects move slowly.

IMO opening development will speed it up because it'll eliminate one barrier for entry for new programmers.
Not everyone wants to become a full-fledged core developer, many programmers just "send a patch and go their own way".
Title: Re: Maybe it's time to open the NRS development?
Post by: barbierir on November 06, 2015, 06:59:43 pm
Yes development now is better open, clones are no longer an issue. If development were open this screw up would have been noticed in advance and prevented.
Title: Re: Maybe it's time to open the NRS development?
Post by: Tosch110 on November 06, 2015, 07:10:22 pm
If development were open this screw up would have been noticed in advance and prevented.

I do not think so. Problems about this have been raised by developers and ignored. Why should this change when development would be open?
Title: Re: Maybe it's time to open the NRS development?
Post by: barbierir on November 06, 2015, 08:35:28 pm
If development were open this screw up would have been noticed in advance and prevented.

I do not think so. Problems about this have been raised by developers and ignored. Why should this change when development would be open?

I'm not a dev but I have the impression that the api changes went unnoticed until 1.6.2 was released in the field, isn't it? Wouldn't an open development make it easier to track changes and to raise questions in advance about the controversial ones?

Title: Re: Maybe it's time to open the NRS development?
Post by: blackyblack1 on November 06, 2015, 09:22:20 pm
If development were open this screw up would have been noticed in advance and prevented.

I do not think so. Problems about this have been raised by developers and ignored. Why should this change when development would be open?

I'm not a dev but I have the impression that the api changes went unnoticed until 1.6.2 was released in the field, isn't it? Wouldn't an open development make it easier to track changes and to raise questions in advance about the controversial ones?
It is very hard to check every commit for changed API behaviour. So it is very unlikey somebody would notice API changes in open development process.
Title: Re: Maybe it's time to open the NRS development?
Post by: chanc3r on November 06, 2015, 09:31:22 pm
Your comparison is wrong. Compare NXT to open-source projects like Linux, KDE, Gnome, GNU, Gimp.
It's very incorrect to say that these projects move slowly.

IMO opening development will speed it up because it'll eliminate one barrier for entry for new programmers.
Not everyone wants to become a full-fledged core developer, many programmers just "send a patch and go their own way".

Most of these projects start with a small core group of developers and while lots of people 'tinker' around the edges most of the core changes are still made by a small group..

Just because everyone is smarting from the 1.5 to 1.6 issues this does not need to widen into a religious debate on how NXT should be developed - the world is preciously short of good crypto developers and NXT is lucky to have the ones of the calibre that it does...

There is nothing to stop people submitting patches, this has happened in the past and some have been accepted, this can be done on the publicly released source...

Also as has been pointed out many times the source is not obfuscated so there is nothing stoping someone decompiling an experimental release in a few seconds and then using it as a basis.

Title: Re: Maybe it's time to open the NRS development?
Post by: neofelis on November 07, 2015, 05:18:37 am
Can't you use the voting system to settle core issues? Isn't that why we have it?
Title: Re: Maybe it's time to open the NRS development?
Post by: pianist on November 08, 2015, 01:03:36 am
NXT is PoS, no miners who can prevent ugly and strage updates.

Most users download version from "official website". In case of blockchain fork "core devs" will hardcode their version.

The is no way to do anything! NXT has owners — NXT Core team, which owns a domain nxt.org.
Title: Re: Maybe it's time to open the NRS development?
Post by: achim on November 08, 2015, 09:19:43 am
NXT is PoS, no miners who can prevent ugly and strage updates.

This is false. Forgers have the same power as bitcoin miners. If majority of stake chooses hardfork version A, then it will win over version B.

Why do you post this on bct without thinking about it?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1240987.0;topicseen

Looks to me like you're trolling.
Title: Re: Maybe it's time to open the NRS development?
Post by: Brangdon on November 08, 2015, 10:29:21 am
The recent API compatibility fuckup may not be completely preventable by an open development model, but it'd surely allow someone to spot the disaster before the release.
I don't think so. That issue could have been spotted had third party developers been paying more attention to TestNet releases. If they didn't do that, they won't pay attention to public commits in MainNet either. This is a red herring.
Title: Re: Maybe it's time to open the NRS development?
Post by: pianist on November 08, 2015, 11:46:49 am
This is false. Forgers have the same power as bitcoin miners. If majority of stake chooses hardfork version A, then it will win over version B.

Forger can run two clients and support both forks.

So, it will get profit from two chains. :)
Title: Re: Maybe it's time to open the NRS development?
Post by: bcdev on November 08, 2015, 12:04:05 pm
This is false. Forgers have the same power as bitcoin miners. If majority of stake chooses hardfork version A, then it will win over version B.

Forger can run two clients and support both forks.

So, it will get profit from two chains. :)
Supporting two forks at the same time is suicidal. You'd do that only if you want to destroy the currency, not to profit from it.
And biggest hodlers want to profit from NXT, not to destroy it.

-----------------------------

Personally I am content with current decisions regarding the case.
Events are outside of my sphere of influence anyway.
Title: Re: Maybe it's time to open the NRS development?
Post by: Arkh on November 08, 2015, 01:39:02 pm
We should not open the NRS development, I think we MUST open it, this doesn't make any sense anymore. I hope the dev team can realize that very soon, having the new code open on github or bitbucket or what ever would allow all the third party devs to identify issues, propose fixes, create pull request, ask questions etc...

We need this in order to NXT to become more profesionnal
Title: Re: Maybe it's time to open the NRS development?
Post by: chanc3r on November 08, 2015, 01:56:14 pm
We should not open the NRS development, I think we MUST open it, this doesn't make any sense anymore. I hope the dev team can realize that very soon, having the new code open on github or bitbucket or what ever would allow all the third party devs to identify issues, propose fixes, create pull request, ask questions etc...

We need this in order to NXT to become more profesionnal

I disagree... there are far more people out there that want to steal the advances in NXT than want to help it.
Also the people qualified to contribute to code like this are rare..
If those people arise then I am sure through the TNSSE team an inner circle of platform contribitors will arise..

Also we need the developers concentrating on development not answering questions, reviewing other peoples code - unless we were to employ a community member to assist with this and then who is going to pay them?

Like I said before the code is not obfuscated, anyone can decompile an experimental release, this has happen ed before and on rare occasions when NXT was much simpler than it is today code improvements were suggested...

Anyone could have suggested improvements on 1.5.x code line which has been around for a while, to my knowledge no one has and there are in a public repository.

No the only people this kind of thing helps are the thieves and scammers as we saw before.
Title: Re: Maybe it's time to open the NRS development?
Post by: lurker10 on November 08, 2015, 02:04:13 pm
We should not open the NRS development, I think we MUST open it, this doesn't make any sense anymore. I hope the dev team can realize that very soon, having the new code open on github or bitbucket or what ever would allow all the third party devs to identify issues, propose fixes, create pull request, ask questions etc...

We need this in order to NXT to become more profesionnal

I disagree... there are far more people out there that want to steal the advances in NXT than want to help it.
Also the people qualified to contribute to code like this are rare..
If those people arise then I am sure through the TNSSE team an inner circle of platform contribitors will arise..

Also we need the developers concentrating on development not answering questions, reviewing other peoples code - unless we were to employ a community member to assist with this and then who is going to pay them?

Like I said before the code is not obfuscated, anyone can decompile an experimental release, this has happen ed before and on rare occasions when NXT was much simpler than it is today code improvements were suggested...

Anyone could have suggested improvements on 1.5.x code line which has been around for a while, to my knowledge no one has and there are in a public repository.

No the only people this kind of thing helps are the thieves and scammers as we saw before.

+1 for keeping it as is.
Title: Re: Maybe it's time to open the NRS development?
Post by: Arkh on November 08, 2015, 02:06:23 pm
We should not open the NRS development, I think we MUST open it, this doesn't make any sense anymore. I hope the dev team can realize that very soon, having the new code open on github or bitbucket or what ever would allow all the third party devs to identify issues, propose fixes, create pull request, ask questions etc...

We need this in order to NXT to become more profesionnal

I disagree... there are far more people out there that want to steal the advances in NXT than want to help it.
Also the people qualified to contribute to code like this are rare..
If those people arise then I am sure through the TNSSE team an inner circle of platform contribitors will arise..

Also we need the developers concentrating on development not answering questions, reviewing other peoples code - unless we were to employ a community member to assist with this and then who is going to pay them?

Like I said before the code is not obfuscated, anyone can decompile an experimental release, this has happen ed before and on rare occasions when NXT was much simpler than it is today code improvements were suggested...

Anyone could have suggested improvements on 1.5.x code line which has been around for a while, to my knowledge no one has and there are in a public repository.

No the only people this kind of thing helps are the thieves and scammers as we saw before.

I believe that thieves and scammers can decompile an experimental release anyway, so is the point not to make it convenient for them ?

I do understand what you say about devs answering questions and reviewing other people code, in the current setup it is complicated as they have to focus on new features but this might be something to consider in the future, especialy if businesses running on AE starts to finance the devs ( as coinomat proposed today ).

I also agree that only a few people have the technical expertise to contribute, so why not add main 3rd parties developers to the NRS dev repo as watchers ? or give them the power to create pull requests ?  That could be done after a request from the 3rd party dev and the approval of the NRS dev, like when you request an API key on private API's ;)
Title: Re: Maybe it's time to open the NRS development?
Post by: farl4bit on November 08, 2015, 08:57:29 pm
NXT has owners — NXT Core team, which owns a domain nxt.org.

Not true, they don't own the domain. Stop posting lies and FUD!
Title: Re: Maybe it's time to open the NRS development?
Post by: Riker on November 08, 2015, 09:56:41 pm
In fact the 'e' releases are currently obfuscated so de-compiling them is not enough.
For 1.7.0e we are considering to open the source code for review immediately instead of waiting for a stable release.
Would this help ?
Title: Re: Maybe it's time to open the NRS development?
Post by: bcdev on November 08, 2015, 10:00:42 pm
For 1.7.0e we are considering to open the source code for review immediately instead of waiting for a stable release.
Would this help ?
Will "git log" work on this release?
Title: Re: Maybe it's time to open the NRS development?
Post by: Riker on November 08, 2015, 10:04:41 pm
For 1.7.0e we are considering to open the source code for review immediately instead of waiting for a stable release.
Would this help ?
Will "git log" work on this release?

Sure
Title: Re: Maybe it's time to open the NRS development?
Post by: Arkh on November 08, 2015, 10:14:06 pm
In fact the 'e' releases are currently obfuscated so de-compiling them is not enough.
For 1.7.0e we are considering to open the source code for review immediately instead of waiting for a stable release.
Would this help ?

This is a step in the right direction, thanks, does it mean we would have access to the code of the experimental versions on the repo ?
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