Topic: Function of Ardor token (Read 9826 times)

m200 · « **Reply #20 on:** September 26, 2016, 07:10:29 am »

Hello. Where can I check Ardor development progress? GitHub link or something?

Thank you.

NxtSwe · « **Reply #21 on:** September 26, 2016, 09:19:23 am »

Quote from: m200 on September 26, 2016, 07:10:29 am

Hello. Where can I check Ardor development progress? GitHub link or something?

Thank you.

It would actually be nice with an update in this regard.
I suppose a lot of development is going on behind the scenes and progress have been made.
Have you discovered something new, that changes the original plan? Is there an update to the time table? Anything else?
I'm not requiring full source code as it looks today, but seeing how other crypto projects (komodo for example) post daily or at least weekly development progress on both steemit&btc, the total silence makes me a bit uneasy.
But I'm not paying the devs, so I have no right to require anything. I'm just voicing my opinion. I also realize that writing blogs/posts take away time from development..

lurker10 · « **Reply #22 on:** September 26, 2016, 10:18:41 am »

Monthly progress updates would be nice to have.

Brangdon · « **Reply #23 on:** September 26, 2016, 01:00:50 pm »

Quote from: blackyblack1 on September 25, 2016, 04:24:06 pm

For businesses it is easier to give some value to childchain tokens (eg by buying on the market) to make it attractive to Ardor forgers. Still no need for bundlers.

Raising the price of the child-chain tokens for the sake of forgers also raises it for everyone else. I imagine most child-chains will want cheap tokens to encourage use. It seems to me that the main benefit of running a child-chain, rather than just cloning the entire Nxt or Ardor system, is that it allows cheap tokens without compromising security or suffering from spam, and that's what I'd expect to see on child-chains.

Do you see bundlers as a problem? Would we be better off without them? If so, why?

blackyblack1 · « **Reply #24 on:** September 26, 2016, 01:23:30 pm »

Quote from: Brangdon on September 26, 2016, 01:00:50 pm

Quote from: blackyblack1 on September 25, 2016, 04:24:06 pm
For businesses it is easier to give some value to childchain tokens (eg by buying on the market) to make it attractive to Ardor forgers. Still no need for bundlers.
Raising the price of the child-chain tokens for the sake of forgers also raises it for everyone else. I imagine most child-chains will want cheap tokens to encourage use. It seems to me that the main benefit of running a child-chain, rather than just cloning the entire Nxt or Ardor system, is that it allows cheap tokens without compromising security or suffering from spam, and that's what I'd expect to see on child-chains.

I did not say we should raise the price of the childchain tokens for the sake of the forgers. Any value of the tokens will make bundlers obsolete.

Quote from: Brangdon on September 26, 2016, 01:00:50 pm

Do you see bundlers as a problem? Would we be better off without them? If so, why?

I do not see them as a problem. They are simply unneeded in the proposed system hence there won't be such a thing in Ardor.

abctc · « **Reply #25 on:** September 26, 2016, 04:51:41 pm »

Quote from: blackyblack1 on September 26, 2016, 01:23:30 pm

.. Any value of the tokens will make bundlers obsolete.

- even if the resulting value of the fee would be considered by forgers as inadequate? In this case the forgers will reject such childchain block, whereas the bundler (read "childchain creator") could sponsor transactions (block creation).

martismartis · « **Reply #26 on:** September 26, 2016, 04:55:05 pm »

I think if we'll have child chain with token pegged or backed by fiat (eur, usd, etc) and fees paid in this token, we will have a lot of bundlers for child chain

blackyblack1 · « **Reply #27 on:** September 26, 2016, 04:56:49 pm »

Quote from: abctc on September 26, 2016, 04:51:41 pm

Quote from: blackyblack1 on September 26, 2016, 01:23:30 pm
.. Any value of the tokens will make bundlers obsolete.
- even if the resulting value of the fee would be considered by forgers as inadequate? In this case the forgers will reject such childchain block, whereas the bundler (read "childchain creator") could sponsor transactions (block creation).

This sponosrhip I mentioned before (as subsidation). But actually any value of the token will fit. Let's suppose you are Ardor forger and you have an option to include a block (for free since it is your turn to forge) and get some childchain tokens or do not include and miss those tokens. So it is an option to get some value VS an option to not get any value. Which one do you choose?

blackyblack1 · « **Reply #28 on:** September 26, 2016, 05:00:17 pm »

Quote from: martismartis on September 26, 2016, 04:55:05 pm

I think if we'll have child chain with token pegged or backed by fiat (eur, usd, etc) and fees paid in this token, we will have a lot of bundlers for child chain

I expect the opposite. Why should forger give away those pegged tokens to bundlers instead of taking them to himself?

martismartis · « **Reply #29 on:** September 26, 2016, 05:56:15 pm »

Quote from: blackyblack1 on September 26, 2016, 05:00:17 pm

Quote from: martismartis on September 26, 2016, 04:55:05 pm
I think if we'll have child chain with token pegged or backed by fiat (eur, usd, etc) and fees paid in this token, we will have a lot of bundlers for child chain
I expect the opposite. Why should forger give away those pegged tokens to bundlers instead of taking them to himself?

To forge/bundle on child chain will be able anybody.

blackyblack1 · « **Reply #30 on:** September 26, 2016, 06:00:50 pm »

Quote from: martismartis on September 26, 2016, 05:56:15 pm

Quote from: blackyblack1 on September 26, 2016, 05:00:17 pm
Quote from: martismartis on September 26, 2016, 04:55:05 pm
I think if we'll have child chain with token pegged or backed by fiat (eur, usd, etc) and fees paid in this token, we will have a lot of bundlers for child chain
I expect the opposite. Why should forger give away those pegged tokens to bundlers instead of taking them to himself?

To forge/bundle on child chain will be able anybody.

Yes but it is only up to the Ardor forgers which bundles to include. And I believe they will include only own bundles for maximum profit.

lurker10 · « **Reply #31 on:** September 26, 2016, 06:26:31 pm »

Quote from: blackyblack1 on September 26, 2016, 06:00:50 pm

Quote from: martismartis on September 26, 2016, 05:56:15 pm
Quote from: blackyblack1 on September 26, 2016, 05:00:17 pm
Quote from: martismartis on September 26, 2016, 04:55:05 pm
I think if we'll have child chain with token pegged or backed by fiat (eur, usd, etc) and fees paid in this token, we will have a lot of bundlers for child chain
I expect the opposite. Why should forger give away those pegged tokens to bundlers instead of taking them to himself?
, thank you for your offer but I don't have a coin
To forge/bundle on child chain will be able anybody.
Yes but it is only up to the Ardor forgers which bundles to include. And I believe they will include only own bundles for maximum profit.

How about if users transactions don't hit the network (offchain) but instead are submitted and fees paid directly to bundler because bundler packages some valuable service on top of transaction processing.
What if there is no technical possibility for an Ardor forger to collect child chain fees and he/she must use the middleman.

websioux · « **Reply #32 on:** September 26, 2016, 06:29:48 pm »

As a forger, what you want, most of the time is ARDOR tokens, not childchain tokens. Indeed, you might bundle the childchain transactions and get the childchain fees and have no Ardor if you value those more...

Even, if you want to promote valueless childchains, you will need ARDOR stake to forge as much as possible.

blackyblack1 · « **Reply #33 on:** September 26, 2016, 06:36:33 pm »

Quote from: lurker10 on September 26, 2016, 06:26:31 pm

Quote from: blackyblack1 on September 26, 2016, 06:00:50 pm
Quote from: martismartis on September 26, 2016, 05:56:15 pm
Quote from: blackyblack1 on September 26, 2016, 05:00:17 pm
Quote from: martismartis on September 26, 2016, 04:55:05 pm
I think if we'll have child chain with token pegged or backed by fiat (eur, usd, etc) and fees paid in this token, we will have a lot of bundlers for child chain
I expect the opposite. Why should forger give away those pegged tokens to bundlers instead of taking them to himself?
, thank you for your offer but I don't have a coin
To forge/bundle on child chain will be able anybody.
Yes but it is only up to the Ardor forgers which bundles to include. And I believe they will include only own bundles for maximum profit.

How about if users transactions don't hit the network (offchain) but instead are submitted and fees paid directly to bundler because bundler packages some valuable service on top of transaction processing.
What if there is no technical possibility for an Ardor forger to collect child chain fees and he/she must use the middleman.

Of course there are use cases for external bundlers. But we will likely not see them until NXT 3.0

blackyblack1 · « **Reply #34 on:** September 26, 2016, 06:42:33 pm »

Quote from: websioux on September 26, 2016, 06:29:48 pm

As a forger, what you want, most of the time is ARDOR tokens, not childchain tokens.

Are you sure? As a forger I already have a lot of Ardor so I will likely want not more Ardor but more profit to ROI faster.

Quote from: websioux on September 26, 2016, 06:29:48 pm

Even, if you want to promote valueless childchains, you will need ARDOR stake to forge as much as possible.

I will likely just buy a necessary stake of Ardor on the market to pay the fees in this case. However valueless childchain sounds a bit weird. If it is valueless why should I create such a chain? There is a use case with feeless chilchains but it is another topic...

lurker10 · « **Reply #35 on:** September 26, 2016, 06:49:54 pm »

Well, it's not profitable to forge right now. Many forgers do it anyway. It's not always about maximum profits.
There is delayed profit - you do charity work including unprofitable transactions for some community and they help spread the word about the platform, and this brings new users who may be able to afford to pay much more. You don't always know which connection can bring a nice reward in the end.
Generally yes, the system should take into good consideration economic incentives as one of the main drivers but it is not an exclusive driver.

blackyblack1 · « **Reply #36 on:** September 26, 2016, 07:00:02 pm »

Quote from: lurker10 on September 26, 2016, 06:49:54 pm

Well, it's not profitable to forge right now. Many forgers do it anyway. It's not always about maximum profits.
There is delayed profit - you do charity work including unprofitable transactions for some community and they help spread the word about the platform, and this brings new users who may be able to afford to pay much more. You don't always know which connection can bring a nice reward in the end.
Generally yes, the system should take into good consideration economic incentives as one of the main drivers but it is not an exclusive driver.

You are right but I do not see what could this add to the topic. So we have enthusiastic forgers. What does it change?

lurker10 · « **Reply #37 on:** September 26, 2016, 07:10:23 pm »

Quote from: blackyblack1 on September 26, 2016, 07:00:02 pm

Quote from: lurker10 on September 26, 2016, 06:49:54 pm
Well, it's not profitable to forge right now. Many forgers do it anyway. It's not always about maximum profits.
There is delayed profit - you do charity work including unprofitable transactions for some community and they help spread the word about the platform, and this brings new users who may be able to afford to pay much more. You don't always know which connection can bring a nice reward in the end.
Generally yes, the system should take into good consideration economic incentives as one of the main drivers but it is not an exclusive driver.
You are right but I do not see what could this add to the topic. So we have enthusiastic forgers. What does it change?

The difference is a functioning system VS no system when motivated by instant gratification only.

Perhaps I misunderstood and your question is about use cases for bundlers. I think it can be extrapolated to that of use cases for blockchains in general. A lot of smart people in the world are in search of good answers to this question. If such answers are found hopefully by then Nxt will be able to accommodate these use cases having solved the scalability issue. I mean what is the choice?

Brangdon · « **Reply #38 on:** September 27, 2016, 07:55:29 pm »

Quote from: blackyblack1 on September 26, 2016, 04:56:49 pm

Let's suppose you are Ardor forger and you have an option to include a block (for free since it is your turn to forge) and get some childchain tokens or do not include and miss those tokens. So it is an option to get some value VS an option to not get any value. Which one do you choose?

It depends on the cost of processing those transactions. I don't know what that will be. You'll have to receive and store them eventually regardless, when someone else includes them, but presumably there will be some overhead in doing it in advance. You may not want to devote resources to this, especially if you are in a race with other forgers, or if you are on a device with limited processing power, memory, or bandwidth. Also, block-chain space may become a limited resource, in which case you'd rather include high-paying transactions than ones from low value child-chains.

Also, I think child-chains will be sponsored one way or another quite often. Although some may function as private currencies, more will treat their tokens merely as fuel for the network, and all the attention will be on things like property rights and voting rights that are represented in the network. A business will probably want low fees, so their users aren't struggling to fund transactions, even if it means paying all the Ardor themselves. Also, if space in blocks becomes contended, then then may want to pay higher Ardor fees to get their transactions verified quickly, without their users having to think about it. In general, the value of the child-chain to the owner is not the market capitalisation of its tokens.

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Author Topic: Function of Ardor token (Read 9826 times)