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Damelon

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Judging proposals
March 31, 2016, 06:39:12 pm

There are many proposals coming up at the moment, and to maintain at least a minimum of common ground, I want to put forward a small list of problems and facts that these proposals should address (not necessarily solve! It's perfectly fine if a proposal says it considers this problem either unsolvable or not important enough with arguments!)

My list of "Problems to solve" is this:

Problem #1: We lack adequate funding for our project, both for development (which is more than just devs) and operations (which is more than "just" marketing)

Problem #2: We cannot break trust with our investors, whether they have invested directly (ICO of sept-dec 2013) or bought in afterwards, by assets or coins.

Fact #1: We cannot force the devs to do what they honestly think is bad

Fact #2: We cannot arrive at a unified vision of what Nxt is that will satisfy everyone. There will always be people that disagree. We need to aim for a (comfortable) majority

Fact #3: We are a running project, not a new one.

I think all of these should be taken into account in some way or another in any viable proposal. There may be more to be included, so please add them if needed. I just want to have this up as a reference, so talking about proposals becomes less "I don't like it" and more "This doesn't solve #X".

I hope it will benefit our discussion which, even though irritating, are important :)
« Last Edit: March 31, 2016, 06:55:31 pm by Damelon »
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devlux

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Re: Judging proposals
March 31, 2016, 07:11:17 pm

There are many proposals coming up at the moment, and to maintain at least a minimum of common ground, I want to put forward a small list of problems and facts that these proposals should address (not necessarily solve! It's perfectly fine if a proposal says it considers this problem either unsolvable or not important enough with arguments!)

My list of "Problems to solve" is this:

Problem #1: We lack adequate funding for our project, both for development (which is more than just devs) and operations (which is more than "just" marketing)

Problem #2: We cannot break trust with our investors, whether they have invested directly (ICO of sept-dec 2013) or bought in afterwards, by assets or coins.

Fact #1: We cannot force the devs to do what they honestly think is bad

Fact #2: We cannot arrive at a unified vision of what Nxt is that will satisfy everyone. There will always be people that disagree. We need to aim for a (comfortable) majority

Fact #3: We are a running project, not a new one.

I think all of these should be taken into account in some way or another in any viable proposal. There may be more to be included, so please add them if needed. I just want to have this up as a reference, so talking about proposals becomes less "I don't like it" and more "This doesn't solve #X".

I hope it will benefit our discussion which, even though irritating, are important :)

Excellent post.  My proposal is to create a company on the NXT Asset exchange and sell shares of that instead of a new coin.
The company would not have any special privileges with NXT, but instead be tasked with marketing NXT to businesses and bringing them onto NXT.  Showing just how powerful NXT is.

Feedback from these actual customers would be used to direct new features, improvements etc.

This would have several effects.
Firstly no one would lose stake or value.  NXT is still NXT and nothing there changes.
Secondly, the company could issue as many shares as it wants and can sell those directly to the community.
Thirdly, because the only way to acquire those shares is via NXT, the price of NXT would rise as those outside the community take notice and decide to invest.
Fourthly, feature creep would slow down and the focus would turn to improvement of the user experience, for business.  Why business?  Because no one is creating a crypto coin meant for business to get business done.  One place NXT shines right now is in dividend payment.  No other coin even comes close in this ability.... "PIMP THAT!"
Fifthly, by using our existing tech we're showing the world that what we have is solid.  Solid enough we're willing to use it to establish a business who's sole purpose is to evangelize the tech because finally the tech is ready for primetime.
Sixthly, the company would have direct access to the devs and the devs could listen to the end user businesses and find what works and what doesn't.  The company would be tasked with paying for devs, marketing etc.

I have yet to see anyone make any compelling contra arguments to this idea. 
 
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Re: Judging proposals
March 31, 2016, 07:22:39 pm


Thirdly, because the only way to acquire those shares is via NXT, the price of NXT would rise as those outside the community take notice and decide to invest.


Why would investors, especially investors outside this community buy shares on this company which only goal is to promote NXT?

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Re: Judging proposals
March 31, 2016, 07:24:19 pm

@devlux - I like the concept of using the killer feature in Nxt to pump up the platform, but there's one thing I'd like to hear more about...

In short, which incentives would purchasing that token bring to holders, besides donating to an AE crowdfunding campaign? If that company is meant to distribute revenues through the token, which revenues are we talking here?
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Re: Judging proposals
March 31, 2016, 07:35:41 pm

Problem #1: We lack adequate funding for our project, both for development (which is more than just devs) and operations (which is more than "just" marketing)
Am I right in thinking this is not just a problem for the next year, but long term? It seems to me that if we had an IPO and raised enough money for, say, three years development and marketing, then when those three years are up we'll be having this crisis all over again. We can't just have another IPO every three years.
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devlux

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Re: Judging proposals
March 31, 2016, 07:39:50 pm

@devlux - I like the concept of using the killer feature in Nxt to pump up the platform, but there's one thing I'd like to hear more about...

In short, which incentives would purchasing that token bring to holders, besides donating to an AE crowdfunding campaign? If that company is meant to distribute revenues through the token, which revenues are we talking here?

Well it would be a business doing a crypto IPO, not a crowdfund.  Ergo it would distribute dividends from profits as declared on the ex-dividend date.  Profits are defined as earnings minus expenses, thus the entire business would pay itself first and then it's investors.

It should of course keep back some earnings for future lean times, but mostly it should be concerned with maintaining shareholder value, which means doing things that increase revenues so that dividends are more attractive.  The company would need a solid business plan and truthfully it should keep the bulk of it's own funds in NXT in order to pay expenses and dividends, but also to act as a liquidity mop. Doing this would drive the price of NXT upwards for all NXT holders, not just those who choose to buy stake in the new company.

The way I see it, the profits would be derived from consulting with companies and onboarding them onto the NXT platform.  There isn't any other sustainable business model.  Fees are just a race to the bottom and frankly no "company" should be getting a cut of every transaction anyways.

If the company is tasked solely with evangelizing the coin, they are less likely to push for major shifts and breaking changes.  The number one concern of any business looking at building anything on top of NXT or any other platform, is how long until they bust the API so we have to pay to have this work done again.  If you're not stable, no business will want you.  But making things easier for new business is a good thing and lessons learned from that can feed into future decisions instead of the current "keeping up with the joneses" that we're doing now.

Seriously, if you guys are doing an ICO anyways, why do it anywhere else, or any other way? 

You'll lose any credibility if you try to do an outside ICO and the ICO is more likely to fail than to succeed. 
NXT is sufficiently powerful and I would argue that it is ideal for exactly this. 
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devlux

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Re: Judging proposals
March 31, 2016, 07:42:24 pm

Problem #1: We lack adequate funding for our project, both for development (which is more than just devs) and operations (which is more than "just" marketing)
Am I right in thinking this is not just a problem for the next year, but long term? It seems to me that if we had an IPO and raised enough money for, say, three years development and marketing, then when those three years are up we'll be having this crisis all over again. We can't just have another IPO every three years.

This is also exactly what I'm saying.  Without a viable business model then this will fail.  Transaction fees and or a new coin are not a viable model because they are a race to the bottom.  It's better for the company to source it's long term income doing something no one else is doing...  Selling NXT as the powerful business tool that it is, not trying to solve problems that literally no one is having.
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devlux

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Re: Judging proposals
March 31, 2016, 07:59:41 pm


Thirdly, because the only way to acquire those shares is via NXT, the price of NXT would rise as those outside the community take notice and decide to invest.


Why would investors, especially investors outside this community buy shares on this company which only goal is to promote NXT?

Very good question.  The fact is that they wouldn't be there to "promote" NXT.  They would be there to consult with businesses mostly to get them to crowdfund their own company onto the NXT blockchain, but also to help them develop custom business applications that are powered by NXT.

They are selling NXT the technology, not NXT the coin.  They earn revenues in dollars, euros, pounds, rubles whatever and redistribute them back to share holders via dividends.
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Re: Judging proposals
March 31, 2016, 08:03:32 pm

The way I see it, the profits would be derived from consulting with companies and onboarding them onto the NXT platform.
Are we at the point where companies will pay for this?
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Re: Judging proposals
March 31, 2016, 08:04:24 pm

@devlux : If people buy share into a company, they want dividend/profits from it.
But how that company would earn money then?
I don't get how promoting NXT to business will bring in money into the company.



EDIT : yeah, so it's like a consulting company, that give advice to another company.
I don't see how that would be very profitable. Especially if we want to raise significant fundss from the IPO

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Re: Judging proposals
March 31, 2016, 08:17:42 pm

The way I see it, the profits would be derived from consulting with companies and onboarding them onto the NXT platform.
Are we at the point where companies will pay for this?

I think we are yes.  It's more a matter of visibility.  I really don't want to hijack this thread, but in the USA for a company to do an equity crowdfund they have 2 choices.  Partner with a crowdfunding partner portal, or run it themselves.

The process in either case is a $500 fee to the SEC and some forms.  You then get a filing ID.  You have to file a business plan a prospectus and depending on the tier of funding you are trying to receive and how long you've been in business you may need audited financials.  All of that is filed with the SEC.

Where NXT comes in is that it allows the company to sell their shares directly without involving a broker dealer, so their cut of their funding is much higher.
The reason there are no equity crowdfunding partner portals is because to be a "portal" you have to meet certain requirements that at the moment limit these portals to ONLY registered broker dealers, which means for kickstarter to do it they would need to be bought by a broker dealer.

However NXT bypasses that completely.  The business can sell direct to the investor and then NXT functions as the official share transfer registry for the company.

A business onboarding a company would take a fee upfront to set them up properly on the exchange and set the whole thing up for them, then walk them through things like shareholder voting and dividend payments.  After that they would of course have to walk away because if you take an investors money and trade them for shares by law you either need to be the business itself, or a registered broker dealer.

Once they are already listed on the NXT exchange, then it becomes a matter of finding ways that NXT can help them in other business aspects.  Purchasing supplies, renting labor, acquiring cpu time (should DAPPS become a thing).  Basically any subject where having an absolute auditable record of events is the order of the day is a suitable task that can be built on top of NXT, as Riker commented in another thread.  I agree with him on that.
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Damelon

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Re: Judging proposals
March 31, 2016, 08:20:48 pm

Problem #1: We lack adequate funding for our project, both for development (which is more than just devs) and operations (which is more than "just" marketing)
Am I right in thinking this is not just a problem for the next year, but long term? It seems to me that if we had an IPO and raised enough money for, say, three years development and marketing, then when those three years are up we'll be having this crisis all over again. We can't just have another IPO every three years.

This is not just a problem that can be solved by raising money, no.
Unless we make it sustainable, it is just a stop gap, as in any enterprise.
But let us be honest here and see that there is little money to bootstrap in general, although we are not completely helpless.
The money raised for TNSSE is being put to good use, and we are spending it as strategically as possible, which is important anyway.

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devlux

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Re: Judging proposals
March 31, 2016, 08:21:01 pm

@devlux : If people buy share into a company, they want dividend/profits from it.
But how that company would earn money then?
I don't get how promoting NXT to business will bring in money into the company.



EDIT : yeah, so it's like a consulting company, that give advice to another company.
I don't see how that would be very profitable. Especially if we want to raise significant fundss from the IPO

B2B services is a multi trillion dollar a year market.  NXT is absolutely suitable for any situation where perfect tracking of something is required whether that's asset ownership, or financials etc.  Even just getting companies to crowdfund their own IPOs directly onto the NXT blockchain is a HUGE market, worth billions.

Why not sell NXT as the thing you launch your equity crowdfunding campaign under?
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Damelon

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Re: Judging proposals
March 31, 2016, 08:28:41 pm

@devlux : If people buy share into a company, they want dividend/profits from it.
But how that company would earn money then?
I don't get how promoting NXT to business will bring in money into the company.

EDIT : yeah, so it's like a consulting company, that give advice to another company.
I don't see how that would be very profitable. Especially if we want to raise significant fundss from the IPO

IMO, the whole "dividends per week" thing that is done on the AE these days is ludicrous.
Starting to send out dividends when bootstrapping such a business is corporate suicide, probably.
It hemorrhages capital in the period when you most need it.
Dividends can be paid out at a time when the company is stable. This is at least my view on that.

As devlux says, B2B is HUGE.

The way I see it, the profits would be derived from consulting with companies and onboarding them onto the NXT platform.
Are we at the point where companies will pay for this?

Most definitely. But you need the sales force to go get them.
We've been working hard to get a few and are getting good responses.
It's just a question of getting them to the point where they want to pilot/test with you.
But the corporate will is definitely there.
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Re: Judging proposals
April 01, 2016, 02:08:36 pm

Ignition is hard.

We need many businesses around NXT. Because their side effects will fund core developments.

Devlux suggested business facilitates businesses to build original proposals thanks to specific Nxt possibilities.
It helps them goes faster. It helps new ones to get attached faster.
It helps employed devs to get involved in real case scenario, not only potential projects from "good contacts" but real business contRacts !
Quite a lot of difference. This helps find the best directions, understand the true needs (the ones that outsiders are willing to pay for).

It's not easy money, but it is solid one.

Once this concept survive, you will suddenly have a competing one that pops up... and then another one, and then.. the problem is definitively solved.

Look at wordpress: only 5 lead full time devs sponsored by companies all the others part time hobbyist or heratic contributions (code) from companies selling wordpress products/plugin/services. Not more.. that's not much.. but we have a generic crypto so we can do much better...

Like Brangdon said, we must not solve a temporary funding problem, we must set up a stable system ! I don't believe anyone can engineer that. We can only facilitate things such that the components of such system get easier to exist and survive. NXT is already that but it is never enough.

Where are real world use cases explained for others to grap? I'm searching for them every day, but in my mind.. Because so far we only have software features explained. Even at a conceptual level, we do not have much. We have some cool features created by hobbyist and some general concepts but without real clear matches cases in the business world.

This is going to be longer than I thought (as always...) but I feel now obliged to give a real example :

Yesterday, a friend of mine, an insurer agent who was a business partner when he had is own agency, (I was doing web marketing for him for a 30% commission), calls me because he changed company and discovers the new insurance company now have very competitive offers and he think I could helps them sell more with little effort. But, while before he was running is own agency and was the only one I had to trust for my partner commission, this is not the case anymore, now he is an employee. Usually insurance are renewed so when you get a commission you want to have it renewed too. Now he is not sure he will stay in this company for ever and then he can not guarantee me that I will always be paid. I could sign a contract with the company that engage them to pay me but how do I check they are not cheating me about the sales made and the cancelation rate?

I could randomly call some lead to check if what they say corresponds to what the company tells me. But what if it doesn't ?

How will I prove that they are cheating me ?

How do you prove that the excel sheet (yes they often use that!) that you claim contains false data has not been modified by me ? Is DKIM signature in email sufficient ? Let's suppose it is, what if I succeed to generate enough such that email is not the right protocol to exchange informations anymore and that instead we want our respective CRMs to communicate direcly ? How can I prove anything ?
That is the main reason why I have been involved in selling phone numbers for 12 years more than be paid with commissions. While from a adverstiing tracking point of view, commission gives a much accurate return of information than just the sell of a lead.

So I started to think at NXT, and may have found something :
Lets communicate with AM. I send them leads and they send back the lead state when it changes. If they cheat, I have a proof they did ! This will be encrypted so it will not be very satisfying to give my password to the judge if I need to. So I thought I should look at account control. Can I give a temporary access to the judge to my account at a later time ? Should the partner company download/install NXT too or can they use any SSL node somewhere ? The coupling with their CRM can somebody help ? Yes I can, but shouldn't it be somebody else, at least on their side ?

This is just to illustrate how there seems to be incredible things that can be done thanks to NXT, but they are hidden in "boring" details of real business. But they requires, information, consultancy and often yields to some development needs. But I see no one explaining it. I think because we have not worked it yet. Each time I approach these questions, I sometimes got some very short reply, à la CfB that point to the right direction but so much work remain.

This work must be done, documented and given for other to.. profit from!

Now, what if, I, someone, solve this case in the general sense ? And helps make it easy to implement ?
We are enabling web affiliate marketing in offline sales without the need for anyone to trust everyone. This is a lot of economical friction removed !
Ask a fair amount to maintain custom nxt gateway within CRMs and you have a business that will permanently advertise this possibility.
When this business has customers, they start advertising their partnership offer.
Competitor notice and suddenly wants it too..

Ignition is hard but then scalability rapidly matter.

Bonus: There are all potential investors and issuers for AE and stakers of xian coin (did I wrote xian  :o)



 
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Jean-Luc

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Re: Judging proposals
April 01, 2016, 07:46:42 pm

So I started to think at NXT, and may have found something :
Lets communicate with AM. I send them leads and they send back the lead state when it changes. If they cheat, I have a proof they did ! This will be encrypted so it will not be very satisfying to give my password to the judge if I need to.
Just a technical comment: You don't need to disclose your password in such case. Each encrypted message is using a new AES key that can be safely disclosed, without compromising your secret phrase, or any other encrypted messages (to the same or other recipients). I will add APIs to get this shared key and to be able to use it to decrypt messages.
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Re: Judging proposals
April 01, 2016, 08:13:28 pm

So I started to think at NXT, and may have found something :
Lets communicate with AM. I send them leads and they send back the lead state when it changes. If they cheat, I have a proof they did ! This will be encrypted so it will not be very satisfying to give my password to the judge if I need to.
Just a technical comment: You don't need to disclose your password in such case. Each encrypted message is using a new AES key that can be safely disclosed, without compromising your secret phrase, or any other encrypted messages (to the same or other recipients). I will add APIs to get this shared key and to be able to use it to decrypt messages.

This is awesome.  One problem I can see this solving is the "digital contracts" of the more regular variety (i.e. a digital version of an agreement between me and you, not the smartcontract type).  Digital signatures are considered legally binding on a formal contract in the USA and have been since 1996 , but no one uses them hardly because of the difficulties of longterm key management.

This solves a huge problem for business.
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Re: Judging proposals
April 01, 2016, 09:41:06 pm

Just a technical comment: You don't need to disclose your password in such case. Each encrypted message is using a new AES key that can be safely disclosed, without compromising your secret phrase, or any other encrypted messages (to the same or other recipients). I will add APIs to get this shared key and to be able to use it to decrypt messages.

Wow, Crypto rocks! and JL with it !
This proves your security expertise and tech vision to anticipate user needs! Thank you this is great. This aspect of AM closed doors when I started to think at NotBot, now I can think more again...

I'm probably going to make an offer to the company of my friend that will force them to use NXT. The fun thing is that they are resellers of AXA contracts, AXA who participated via "AXA strategic ventures" in a pool, few weeks ago, to fund the startup Blockstream (Bitcoin focussed) with 55 milions ! Axa Strategic Ventures Citation : "We are convinced that blockchain technology has the ability to transform not only financial services but also other industries" oh yes really ?  ;)

What are they going to do with all that money that we can not already do ? Play golf ? So I doubt this was very "strategic" from them and start to find this frenzy quite suspicious : hey 50 x 100k people during 10 years !

Digital signatures are considered legally binding on a formal contract in the USA and have been since 1996 , but no one uses them hardly because of the difficulties of longterm key management.

It looks likes AM could easily be set up as true legal communication channel between parties... isn't this.. one more time : R E V O L U T I O N A R Y ?

Sorry to slightly disperse the thread but.. I though it was important.. And is this anarchy or not ?   :P
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Re: Judging proposals
April 01, 2016, 10:06:53 pm

Just a technical comment: You don't need to disclose your password in such case. Each encrypted message is using a new AES key that can be safely disclosed, without compromising your secret phrase, or any other encrypted messages (to the same or other recipients). I will add APIs to get this shared key and to be able to use it to decrypt messages.

Wow, Crypto rocks! and JL with it !
This proves your security expertise and tech vision to anticipate user needs! Thank you this is great. This aspect of AM closed doors when I started to think at NotBot, now I can think more again...

I'm probably going to make an offer to the company of my friend that will force them to use NXT. The fun thing is that they are resellers of AXA contracts, AXA who participated via "AXA strategic ventures" in a pool, few weeks ago, to fund the startup Blockstream (Bitcoin focussed) with 55 milions ! Axa Strategic Ventures Citation : "We are convinced that blockchain technology has the ability to transform not only financial services but also other industries" oh yes really ?  ;)

What are they going to do with all that money that we can not already do ? Play golf ? So I doubt this was very "strategic" from them and start to find this frenzy quite suspicious : hey 50 x 100k people during 10 years !

Digital signatures are considered legally binding on a formal contract in the USA and have been since 1996 , but no one uses them hardly because of the difficulties of longterm key management.

It looks likes AM could easily be set up as true legal communication channel between parties... isn't this.. one more time : R E V O L U T I O N A R Y ?

Sorry to slightly disperse the thread but.. I though it was important.. And is this anarchy or not ?   :P

Yep, it's awesomesauce!  We just need to spread the word a bit.
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Re: Judging proposals
April 01, 2016, 10:15:34 pm

Out of chaos...comes some very good ideas.
Go for it.....and make NotBot happen, while you're at it. Blockchain based notary service makes a lot of sense, and finding some funding should be pretty easy, given the way blockchain is getting interest these days. Everything seems to be in place to make this happen, so: business plan, funding, go.... ;D

I think we are starting to see the emergence of a mature market, where people are losing interest in speculating on crypto-currency and blockchain systems themselves, but are starting to focus on projects that use the blockchain to solve specific problems, like Factom, (or NotBot, or the lead generation/tracking proposal. ;D)
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