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Author Topic: Ignis Token Sale Progress  (Read 37261 times)

nrgskill

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
August 05, 2017, 11:33:43 pm

this cannot be done without a fork and added code to the system that will need testing and delay everything by a noticeable amount.

is it right to say that developers were aware of this limitation before the beginning of the ICO?

JCol

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
August 05, 2017, 11:41:09 pm

Wow, lots of drama. I personally applaud NXT-MAAC-AZFN-MK6A-CE4N7, hell of a lot smarter then staring at a monitor and then crushing keys when the green light goes off. Wish I would of thought of that actually. Everyone stating it is an unfair advantage is dead wrong, everyone has the exact same capability. He / she just thought of it sooner, and executed better then everyone else. I'll buy in when they are done.

nrgskill

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
August 05, 2017, 11:47:21 pm

Wow, lots of drama. I personally applaud NXT-MAAC-AZFN-MK6A-CE4N7, hell of a lot smarter then staring at a monitor and then crushing keys when the green light goes off. Wish I would of thought of that actually. Everyone stating it is an unfair advantage is dead wrong, everyone has the exact same capability. He / she just thought of it sooner, and executed better then everyone else. I'll buy in when they are done.

you miss the point that he was the only one who got all the tokens twice. this may be possible by good skills, but considering we have also developers in the community it is very unlike that at the second period no one has been able to get in the second time, unless he had information not available to others

bpie

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
August 06, 2017, 12:37:30 am

I do not like these whale traders, if someone with this much influence can buy up big chunks they can also sale and crush it instantly.

Not sure how that is different then any other ICO though  ???
Whales can always buy big chunks, that's how they are defined :)

You are right, every ICO I have ever participated in has been bought by one trader before it hit the GUI.  Every ICO I have participated in has allowed grace periods for the seller to dump the underlining asset (causing prospective buyers to lose value with every whale purchase).  Every ICO I have ever participated in allowed one person to accumulate every share sold at a discount (again, causing prospective buyers to lose EV).  Every ICO I have ever participated in the distributors, when given time (and ToS) that allow for correcting the issue, has thrown their hands in the air and said who would'a guessed - this guys just really believes in us.  Every ICO I have ever participated in convinced people to purchase the underlying asset promising a snapshot distribution coinciding with the launch of the product itself (within a week or two is what I remember), to then later decide to sell a limited supply at 1/3 the price and force prospective buyers to hold bags for weeks on end.  Every ICO I have ever participated in, the distributor benefits from manipulating the value of the underlying asset (so manipulation incentives are the norm).

You add it up, this is just another standard ICO.  The developers and yourself are right to act incredulous to our complaints.  Heck, you guys saw it before during your last ICO.  According to Riker, they knew that this ICO would be just like that one (which it is because they are all exactly like this).

CryptoKitty

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
August 06, 2017, 01:30:46 am

Nxt's response is sad.  They admit that they were aware of this flaw, decided not to fix it because it would be too hard and are not going to do anything to correct it.  This means that ALL asset sales of any kind on the Nxt, Ardr, Ignis platform will be available to the best hackers/biggest whales only.  I get that they like their whales a/k/a dedicated nxt fans... but if the platform is going to grow it has to reach the little guy too.  Screwing the little guy out of an early buy opportunity and not disclosing this known bug before hand is a serious trust concern.  Simply limiting the buy amount in a single transaction would have at least attempted to make it fair.  I feel duped and based on the fact that this is not the first time Nxt has seriously disappointed its users, they'll never get a dime of my fake money again.

Gabriel

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
August 06, 2017, 02:22:26 am

Here is why I am mad about how the first 2 rounds of the ICO went:

- I wish I had not been so naïve, just trying to use the Ignis Token sale page, and actually researched better ways to purchase
- I wish I had more programming skills to have figured out a way to outsmart the MAAC account
- I wish I had bought into the original NXT ICO in 2013, instead of doing whatever else I was doing at the time
- I wish I had held that NXT throughout bad times during FOUR years so that I could invest it in IGNIS today

Since, I did none of that, I can only take my hat off to the guy who did! Well done, and thank you for believing in this project!
I would also like to congratulate the devs for running an ICO that attracted so much attention despite few marketing resources.

VanBreuk

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
August 06, 2017, 02:54:48 am

I cannot reply on behalf of the developers because I don't work for Jelurida, but this is not true:

This means that ALL asset sales of any kind on the Nxt, Ardr, Ignis platform will be available to the best hackers/biggest whales only.

There's been hundreds of asset sales in Nxt. If this sale allowed someone to outgun everyone else in the community it is not only due to the special interest arised to join the IGNIS ICO, but also because of the model of sale divided in relatively small chunks. In another model you could place the whole supply in dutch auction, at different price levels, so you would not run out of supply. Then you could also have in theory early birdwhales that take the cheaper bites faster, which would make people upset... although probably less upset, because they couldn't buy as cheap as they wanted but in the end they got their tokens. I hope this will be eventually the outcome of this ICO.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2017, 02:59:30 am by VanBreuk »
GPG Fingerprint: B020 D1C1 F289 3B2C 3577  9EAD 455D D175 5913 C7F1

nrgskill

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
August 06, 2017, 02:59:33 am

lol you realize something is wrong when missed out investors congratulate with the one who made it just as like it was an hackaton.   ;D

goodsignal

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
August 06, 2017, 03:12:26 am

Devs: Flip the ICO model on it's head.
  • Turn the JLRDA buying periods into a purchase request period.
  • At the end of the period, order all purchase requests from small to large.
  • Cumulatively sum all purchase request, from small to large, until the total equals 5 million JLRDA (or whatever the total sale is for the period).
  • Sell to that set of buyers.
  • Be heroes in the crypto world, make the majority happy, get tons of good press, and make all the money that was intended.

Centaurus

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
August 06, 2017, 03:24:35 am

Devs: Flip the ICO model on it's head.
  • Turn the JLRDA buying periods into a purchase request period.
  • At the end of the period, order all purchase requests from small to large.
  • Cumulatively sum all purchase request, from small to large, until the total equals 5 million JLRDA (or whatever the total sale is for the period).
  • Sell to that set of buyers.
  • Be heroes in the crypto world, make the majority happy, get tons of good press, and make all the money that was intended.

Sounds like a good idea to me. I set my alarm to wake up at 1 AM this morning to try buying some JRLDA tokens. After reading this thread, I just canceled the alarm gave up the idea of trying to buy some JLRDA tokens. I want to support NXT and ARDOR, but I am giving it up. What a sad experience!

nikhsub11

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
August 06, 2017, 04:09:38 am

You will keep coming and the staff will keep banning you and removing your insults.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2017, 04:31:21 am by VanBreuk »

forkedchain

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
August 06, 2017, 04:38:04 am

Can an expert on phasing answer a question for me?

Im trying to understand phasing, the way I though it works, is when you submit a phased transaction, say to buy a MS currency, whatever rate you are offering and the units you are buying determine the NXT you are putting a hold/bond on.  right?

But our whale here, has 33 pending phased transactions, all to buy JLRDA.  Ive done the math on them all and it all adds up to 31619222.35 worth of NXT?  how can that be, the whale's account doesnt have that much?

Am I doing the math right?  for example, here is 1 phased currency buy offer: one order was units: "490000",rateNQT: "10500".  This rate is much higher than would be required, but lets forget that for now.  wouldnt we just divide that 490000/10500 to see how much NXT is being exchanged for JLRDA?  if so then this transaction is 46.66666667 NXT, but if you add up all 33 transactions, its 31619222.35!  well more than in account

ok so best guess is i wasnt mathing right.  my best calcs now is the whale has 5223702.7 worth of NXT open in phased orders between those 33 transactions.  wonder why whale is doing it this way?

« Last Edit: August 06, 2017, 04:47:53 am by forkedchain »
NXT tips: 2319251 or NXT-8SWM-2224-YKWW-22222

schnidl

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
August 06, 2017, 05:53:13 am

I do understand that many believers and investors are dissapointed and sad because most had other expectations. Everyone wanna let of some steem and this infects lots of others. Me too.
But when i calmed down and thought about it without emotions, i understood, that everything's okay as it is.
Sure the whale has an huge advantage, but it's okay, it's part of the game, he's not doing something illegal. And in the end it wont be that much different if i buy a little bit more expensive, it still will be cheap and after some time the bad, negative mood will be gone. I'm sure the ICO will be a success, especially because many many people wont be scared by this situation (even i know lots of people who will invest, so i think there are plenty outside).
NXT-NBY7-VPLP-YGF9-BXF7Z

SwissAlps

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
August 06, 2017, 06:31:18 am

Hi guys,

I am ashamed.

After reading these posts, I am ashamed.

People swearing, talking about legal actions, making insults. What are you doing here ?  During the last three years, NXT was obtainable at a very low price, were have you been ? Yesterday morning, I too wanted to buy some JLRDA at .40, a low price, it's going to be 1 JLRDA for 2 NXT at distribution time, so 5 times more, so we could all be rich in 3 months, is it what we want ? Not at all !!!

Why do we make an ICO ? Can you not see the real reason for the ICO ?  These guys, the devs, they have been working without funds during a very long time, the market capitalisation was poor, only 10M USD...but our devs stayed (well, some could not, they needed a job), and implemented a very impressive roadmap, child chains and a lot more. They would like now to extract 50M USD from this ICO, and build with it a stable and effective sale force. Don't you see that all current Nxters will profit a lot of this (I seem to have read about expropriation, could not believe it) ? THANKS to them for what they have done, ARDR and NXT are now at 300M USD, great !

And during these years, most of us left the forum, left the boat so to say; only a few words of support from time to time but not much more. We should have bring more support to our devs.

For that, I am ashamed.
ArdorExchange...a small DEX for NXT ARDOR IGNIS BTC :
www.NxtTracker.com/ArdorExchange.html

forkedchain

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
August 06, 2017, 07:30:25 am

thanks for that.  Riker, JLP, and others, you guys have worked hard for years here.  i do appreciate it.  its been quite the ride
NXT tips: 2319251 or NXT-8SWM-2224-YKWW-22222

Gabriel

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
August 06, 2017, 07:36:06 am

Why do we make an ICO ? Can you not see the real reason for the ICO ?  These guys, the devs, they have been working without funds during a very long time, the market capitalisation was poor, only 10M USD...but our devs stayed (well, some could not, they needed a job), and implemented a very impressive roadmap, child chains and a lot more.

Fully agree with this. The devs are doing a great job and not getting enough appreciation for it!!
I was shocked by the swearing and insults yesterday. Such people definitely have no place in this community.

cromaclear

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
August 06, 2017, 08:33:57 am

this is not about the hard work of jelurida, which is amazing. it is about how to develop an ico.

this ico sounds more to a private placement than an ipo.
what the bot did is legal but it is not the best way to develop an ico.

in the LinkedIn, facebook, etc...everybody had opportunity to participate in the ico. it was not the first bidder takes all...it was a prorate basis auction

Brangdon

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
August 06, 2017, 09:08:36 am

Devs: Flip the ICO model on it's head.
  • Turn the JLRDA buying periods into a purchase request period.
  • At the end of the period, order all purchase requests from small to large.
  • Cumulatively sum all purchase request, from small to large, until the total equals 5 million JLRDA (or whatever the total sale is for the period).
  • Sell to that set of buyers.
  • Be heroes in the crypto world, make the majority happy, get tons of good press, and make all the money that was intended.
The usual answer to these kind of proposals is that the whale can split their account into many smaller ones, and make multiple buy requests.

Brangdon

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
August 06, 2017, 09:20:28 am

ok so best guess is i wasnt mathing right.  my best calcs now is the whale has 5223702.7 worth of NXT open in phased orders between those 33 transactions.  wonder why whale is doing it this way?
Is each transaction for a different block height? Maybe the whale isn't sniffing unconfirmed transactions at all. Maybe they just attempted to buy in each block in the 30 minutes window, so whichever block the sell order appeared in they were sure to hit the same block.

The devs split the sale over 30 minute windows in an attempt to randomise who won, thinking this would make it harder for a single whale to get the lot. In fact it has had the opposite effect. To be sure of hitting the right block in each window, you need Nxt for 30 times your buy order. Only whales can manage that. And even whales wouldn't manage it if the entire tranche was sold in a single offering. They would need 24M * 30 NXT.

Only a whale has enough Nxt to try to hit all 30 blocks.

Neomadra

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
August 06, 2017, 10:19:05 am

ok so best guess is i wasnt mathing right.  my best calcs now is the whale has 5223702.7 worth of NXT open in phased orders between those 33 transactions.  wonder why whale is doing it this way?

I'm wondering as well. Yesterday I tried to grab some JLRDA by looking if there are JLRDA available and then immediately buy. This didn't work out, because the amount of available JLRDA is only seen using the api when the transaction is included in the blockchain, i.e. I can only execute my transaction one block later. Now I tryto execute the buy order in the same block by looking for unconfirmed transactions und then immediately post a buy order. Unfortunately, the buy order is just ignored doing it this way. I don't use any phased transactions and I only post one buy order because I don't have the NXT to fill several buy orders. But probably therein lies the trick but I don't understand it yet.

« Last Edit: August 06, 2017, 10:24:23 am by Neomadra »
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