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Author Topic: Ignis Token Sale Progress  (Read 35944 times)

Riker

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Ignis Token Sale Progress
August 05, 2017, 01:12:26 pm

Dear NXT community members, we have analysed the first buy in the IGNIS ICO earlier and we want to report our findings to you.
We believe he had a bot which listens to unconfirmed transactions, so when the buyer saw our approval transaction to our phased offer he quickly approved his phased buy either manually or automatically.
Since the matching of the offer and the buy occurred in the same block, users using the wallet UI did not even get a chance to see the offer.
There is no way we can block accounts from doing this. Buyers can distribute their funds to other accounts, or already have them set up, as well as other users who have already planned this and don't have their accounts known.
We understand that this is upsetting to users, and it is one reason why we have multiple rounds; we cannot control this in a decentralized ecosystem. The IGNIS sold this morning represents 1% of all the funds available in the Token Sale.
Until August 10th UTC, there will be 11 more opportunities to buy at the price of 0.4 NXT and starting from August 26th, 80 M will be available, though at the price of 0.55 NXT.
After these rounds are completed, still less than a third of all IGNIS to be sold will have been sold.

I'm here to answer any questions, but please keep on topic and try to stick to the facts.
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Public Key: D8311651 Key fingerprint: 0560 443B 035C EE08 0EC0  D2DD 275E 94A7 D831 1651

GoEthereum

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
August 05, 2017, 01:24:18 pm

Quote
And the whale is unloading even more for the next rounds. Just look at the frenzy of "buy currency" phased transactions in his transaction history lol. His NXT balance is now down to 500k+.

Everything will be wiped out by Whale and the ICO is screwed.
Go Ethereum!

Riker

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
August 05, 2017, 01:27:32 pm

Quote
And the whale is unloading even more for the next rounds. Just look at the frenzy of "buy currency" phased transactions in his transaction history lol. His NXT balance is now down to 500k+.

Everything will be wiped out by Whale and the ICO is screwed.

Thanks for your insight. Predictions about the future are always difficult.
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Public Key: D8311651 Key fingerprint: 0560 443B 035C EE08 0EC0  D2DD 275E 94A7 D831 1651

Neomadra

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
August 05, 2017, 01:30:36 pm

Is this final or will there be any reconsiderations if whales continue eating up all cheap NXT?

Riker

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
August 05, 2017, 01:33:25 pm

Is this final or will there be any reconsiderations if whales continue eating up all cheap NXT?

This ICO has been planned for several month. One whale has bought 1% of the tokens. Should we scrap the whole thing?
NXT Core Dev
Account: NXT-HBFW-X8TE-WXPW-DZFAG
Public Key: D8311651 Key fingerprint: 0560 443B 035C EE08 0EC0  D2DD 275E 94A7 D831 1651

gcmartinelli

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
August 05, 2017, 01:36:16 pm

To me it seemed like the whale set up a series of phased transactions. Most went unfilled because there was no offer for JLRDA but one of them finally was filled.

If my assessment is correct this will lead to a "fees race" between whales. Those who pay the highest fees and can handle the pain of paying for high transaction fees on unfilled phased orders will accumulate most (if not all) IGNIS.

IMO this shows the ICO process is not "fair" to small stakeholders. If it is Jelurida's desire to have a broad ICO investor base I would suggest halting the ICO until it is figured out how to stop this type of "attack".

I'm not knowledgeable enought about Phased transaction and Currencies in NXT to give an opinion, but maybe there is a way to wall off JLRDA from these types of transactions (and from the API) leaving the ICO trully to luck for those using the GUI interface.

Kudo's to the smart whale that took advantage of NXT features... but for a small holder this was is disappointing.

napdude

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
August 05, 2017, 01:36:32 pm

Dear NXT community members, we have analysed the first buy in the IGNIS ICO earlier and we want to report our findings to you.
We believe he had a bot which listens to unconfirmed transactions, so when the buyer saw our approval transaction to our phased offer he quickly approved his phased buy either manually or automatically.
Since the matching of the offer and the buy occurred in the same block, users using the wallet UI did not even get a chance to see the offer.
There is no way we can block accounts from doing this. Buyers can distribute their funds to other accounts, or already have them set up, as well as other users who have already planned this and don't have their accounts known.
We understand that this is upsetting to users, and it is one reason why we have multiple rounds; we cannot control this in a decentralized ecosystem. The IGNIS sold this morning represents 1% of all the funds available in the Token Sale.
Until August 10th UTC, there will be 11 more opportunities to buy at the price of 0.4 NXT and starting from August 26th, 80 M will be available, though at the price of 0.55 NXT.
After these rounds are completed, still less than a third of all IGNIS to be sold will have been sold.

I'm here to answer any questions, but please keep on topic and try to stick to the facts.


I agree fully that there is nothing to do about the sale of JLRDA coin to people using phased transactions to get in front of ordinary buyers. This is just how it is. As long as the method is known, everyone can try to do the same, if they want to.


However, there is the legal terms document that puts in rules for the exchange of JLRDA to IGNIS

Question : if an account controlled by someone who you know and can prove is an US citizien buys JLRDA and thus voids the terms, will you then use the option you have, to not give IGNIS tokens to that account, but instead refund the NXT and sell the IGNIS at a later time?



3.2 By participating in the crowdsale, You expressly declare, represent and warrant that:

(v) You are not a US citizen or resident;

nrgskill

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
August 05, 2017, 01:36:46 pm

in other words you are telling us that it will be of if whales take all the bonus (1/2.5 ratio).
if this is the case, please instruct us how to leverage this "hack" and play the same game whales are playing, otherwise fix it or shut it down.

Logan

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
August 05, 2017, 01:37:15 pm

In my opinion the ICO should be stopped. In the next rounds there will be more people trying to use a bot in any way. They have to, cant blame them.

So everyone who has not the technic skills, has a massive disadvantage. If thats going on, the shitstorm will be huge. NXT had to fight with bad reputation because of the ICO for many years. Now Ignis starts with the same problem..  :-[

rubenaco

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
August 05, 2017, 01:39:11 pm

Personally, as Nxt lover, I preferr to know that Ignis will have long term investors/members rather than pure speculators. It's well for me that someone will take care of 20.000.000 of Ignis. If I could have done it I would have done the same.
(now is time to spank me :D)

cromaclear

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
August 05, 2017, 01:40:44 pm

i see normal that big money get better prices...they are risking more capital...

if you go to invest into a seed capital project, you will have to throw big money.... small money can only go in an ipo which is more expensive than seed investment but less risky.

after this similarity, you could go to the snapshot and get ignis without problems with your nxt (just a little bit more expensive) but that is fair because you have got more information concernig how well or bad the ico went.

if the ico is bought by big pockets just in a second,well, that is the best signal one could get. Imagine,on the contray, that no one is backing Ignis.

it is a good signal, big money coming in. so the signal is buy for the snapshot. it wont be as cheaper as the Ico, but it is a good price taking into account the magnitude of the project

gcmartinelli

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
August 05, 2017, 01:42:41 pm

i see normal that big money get better prices...they are risking more capital...

if you go to invest into a seed capital project, you will have to throw big money.... small money can only go in an ipo which is more expensive than seed investment but less risky.

I agree with you in parts. Yes they are taking more risk. But is it in the interest of Jelurida/IGNIS to have a small shareholder base? Or is it better to have a broad base of holders and supporters? I believe the latter... And this whale showed the ICO will not allow this to happen.

Riker

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
August 05, 2017, 01:44:58 pm

To me it seemed like the whale set up a series of phased transactions. Most went unfilled because there was no offer for JLRDA but one of them finally was filled.

If my assessment is correct this will lead to a "fees race" between whales. Those who pay the highest fees and can handle the pain of paying for high transaction fees on unfilled phased orders will accumulate most (if not all) IGNIS.

IMO this shows the ICO process is not "fair" to small stakeholders. If it is Jelurida's desire to have a broad ICO investor base I would suggest halting the ICO until it is figured out how to stop this type of "attack".

I'm not knowledgeable enought about Phased transaction and Currencies in NXT to give an opinion, but maybe there is a way to wall off JLRDA from these types of transactions (and from the API) leaving the ICO trully to luck for those using the GUI interface.

Kudo's to the smart whale that took advantage of NXT features... but for a small holder this was is disappointing.

As far as we can tell the phased transaction is not what gave the whale advantage here, since the block wasn't full, phased transaction did not provide any priority over the rest of the transactions.
The whale identified our phased exchange offer, approval transaction, and submitted his own approval transaction for his phased buy. But he could have just submitted a regular currency buy with the same effect.
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Public Key: D8311651 Key fingerprint: 0560 443B 035C EE08 0EC0  D2DD 275E 94A7 D831 1651

mister

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
August 05, 2017, 01:46:37 pm

Thanks Riker for stepping forward for explaining,

Was it a bot that was listening the unconfirmed transactions? I don´t think so as there were phased transactions from that account starting on the 28th July in order to cover all possible blocks for the ICO time slot

This was the first transaction
https://nxtportal.org/nxt?requestType=getTransaction&transaction=9576724230702610082

The thing is that you tried to avoid this to happen and it did happen. I understand your struggle, as well as you understand how frustrating this was for potential investors.
It is ok to make mistakes, but it is too risky to keep on making them. It will happen in the next round, and in the next and finally a small chunk will be available to those who though not being whales they have enough technical knowledge to publish 45 phased transactions.

You know what it is going to be said from this ICO if it is not amended? Scam FUD, lack of experience from Jelurida to manage a company properly... I think we all don´t want to hear that, it was enough with the nxt launch in 2013


NXT-JP7J-U5DW-4LYF-3BAYB

Brangdon

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
August 05, 2017, 01:46:57 pm

We believe he had a bot which listens to unconfirmed transactions, so when the buyer saw our approval transaction to our phased offer he quickly approved his phased buy either manually or automatically.
Since the matching of the offer and the buy occurred in the same block, users using the wallet UI did not even get a chance to see the offer.
There is no way we can block accounts from doing this. [...]
With transparent forging, can you predict which node will forge the next block, and send your transaction to that node directly so that bots listening to unconfirmed transactions won't see it? Perhaps modify the node so that it doesn't broadcast the transaction itself. (This wouldn't need a hard fork, but it would need a trusted node that will forge in the published window of time.)

Can you have the account which forges the block, reject any buy orders for sell orders in the same block? This would best be done as an option on any sell order, that all nodes were bound to respect, rather than as a special case for this ICO. In that case it would need a hard fork.

Did you anticipate this happening? If so, didn't it bother you? Why didn't you take steps to prevent it? If you didn't anticipate it, then is this unanticipated event a good reason to suspend the ICO until the issue is dealt with?

My impression is that people are deeply upset about this. It calls into question the whole notion of using Nxt, and by implication Ardor, for ICOs and crowd-funding. There is a risk of major damage to the Nxt brand which it may not recover from. I think you seriously need to think about suspending the ICO until you can fix it. (And by "fix it" I mean make the ICO available to people who are not running bots.)

Riker

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
August 05, 2017, 01:48:20 pm

in other words you are telling us that it will be of if whales take all the bonus (1/2.5 ratio).
if this is the case, please instruct us how to leverage this "hack" and play the same game whales are playing, otherwise fix it or shut it down.

You need to look for unconfirmed transaction which approves the exchange offer we publish and when you see it submit your buy currency transaction.
You cannot do that using the IGNIS ICO page though since it will only allow to buy after the approval transaction is confirmed.
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Public Key: D8311651 Key fingerprint: 0560 443B 035C EE08 0EC0  D2DD 275E 94A7 D831 1651

nrgskill

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
August 05, 2017, 01:49:09 pm

Please anyone who has the knowledge share a tutorial on how to process this phased transaction, so anyone can have the right to participate.

I agree it may end up with a gas race.
Sorry about this attitude from Jelurida, it is not ethic and good for the community.

Neomadra

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
August 05, 2017, 01:49:13 pm

Is this final or will there be any reconsiderations if whales continue eating up all cheap NXT?

This ICO has been planned for several month. One whale has bought 1% of the tokens. Should we scrap the whole thing?

I see that Jelurida is in a very difficult position now but I was hoping that you would come up with some solution. Probably there is just no solution otherwise you would have suggested it.

If this continues, this will lead to a very bad distribution and much frustration. The history of Nxt somehow repeats.  :-\

I'm thinking about writing my own bot but I'm still considering if it's worth the effort.^^

Riker

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
August 05, 2017, 01:55:26 pm

Thanks Riker for stepping forward for explaining,

Was it a bot that was listening the unconfirmed transactions? I don´t think so as there were phased transactions from that account starting on the 28th July in order to cover all possible blocks for the ICO time slot

This was the first transaction
https://nxtportal.org/nxt?requestType=getTransaction&transaction=9576724230702610082

The thing is that you tried to avoid this to happen and it did happen. I understand your struggle, as well as you understand how frustrating this was for potential investors.
It is ok to make mistakes, but it is too risky to keep on making them. It will happen in the next round, and in the next and finally a small chunk will be available to those who though not being whales they have enough technical knowledge to publish 45 phased transactions.

You know what it is going to be said from this ICO if it is not amended? Scam FUD, lack of experience from Jelurida to manage a company properly... I think we all don´t want to hear that, it was enough with the nxt launch in 2013

I agree the guy who bought the first batch did his home work for sure and practiced it a lot.
If we offer some chunks to small buyers what prevents a whale from separating his balance to smaller accounts and if band large balances why should we ban a whale that has 2M NXT which he bought yesterday for 300K$.
Either way someone will be unhappy about this.
NXT Core Dev
Account: NXT-HBFW-X8TE-WXPW-DZFAG
Public Key: D8311651 Key fingerprint: 0560 443B 035C EE08 0EC0  D2DD 275E 94A7 D831 1651

rihard1980@inbox.lv

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
August 05, 2017, 01:57:43 pm

Is this final or will there be any reconsiderations if whales continue eating up all cheap NXT?

This ICO has been planned for several month. One whale has bought 1% of the tokens. Should we scrap the whole thing?

i think that no. but if you cant stop it he can take 12% or 30%. do you think that this is a good when so big capital is in one hands? may be you can change somthing in buy terminal, set captcha or somthing like this, enter one deal limits. becouse if sales will continioues as in first sale this will be looks like a charade. and peoples stops to trust to this.
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