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galeki

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2017, 01:58:52 pm »

Is that only me feel the old plan (50% Ignis distribute to NXT holders, and 50% keep by Devs) is good enough?  ???

The JLRDA thing confused me a lot at beginning and I think so does a lot other average users, and when I finally understand the process then I found I can't get any.
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nrgskill

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2017, 02:01:03 pm »

...peoples stops to trust to this.

At this point it's not trust (already gone), is the fear of having a lot of NXT, bought for the ICO, that soon will fall drastically in price (actually NXT price is already dropping).
Sorry for the OP, you may have good intentions, but you also have to realize how negatively your decision of "keep on going" is affecting our community.
I am right now in a very bad decision to take: if to sell NXT before it will be too late.
You can't do this to us.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2017, 02:08:23 pm by nrgskill »
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cromaclear

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2017, 02:03:13 pm »

the man controlling the bot is risking his own money!!!he wanted all the Ignis because he trusts this project. He studied how to buy all those Ignis....

it is absolutly fair what he did!!!!

let him risk his own money...if ignis go south becuase one person wants to bet all his money buying all, ok, perfect...i will buy all the Ignis at 0 coins...if not, i will receive the snapshot
« Last Edit: August 05, 2017, 02:07:57 pm by cromaclear »
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Riker

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2017, 02:04:52 pm »

Is this final or will there be any reconsiderations if whales continue eating up all cheap NXT?

This ICO has been planned for several month. One whale has bought 1% of the tokens. Should we scrap the whole thing?

i think that no. but if you cant stop it he can take 12% or 30%. do you think that this is a good when so big capital is in one hands? may be you can change somthing in buy terminal, set captcha or somthing like this, enter one deal limits. becouse if sales will continioues as in first sale this will be looks like a charade. and peoples stops to trust to this.

Let's follow your logic:
A whale buys few more rounds as a result people lose trust in the token sale and no longer want to buy, since no one wants to buy, small investors can now buy as much as they like, problem solved.
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Brangdon

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2017, 02:06:44 pm »

Thanks Riker for stepping forward for explaining,

Was it a bot that was listening the unconfirmed transactions? I don´t think so as there were phased transactions from that account starting on the 28th July in order to cover all possible blocks for the ICO time slot

This was the first transaction
https://nxtportal.org/nxt?requestType=getTransaction&transaction=9576724230702610082

The thing is that you tried to avoid this to happen and it did happen. I understand your struggle, as well as you understand how frustrating this was for potential investors.
It is ok to make mistakes, but it is too risky to keep on making them. It will happen in the next round, and in the next and finally a small chunk will be available to those who though not being whales they have enough technical knowledge to publish 45 phased transactions.

You know what it is going to be said from this ICO if it is not amended? Scam FUD, lack of experience from Jelurida to manage a company properly... I think we all don´t want to hear that, it was enough with the nxt launch in 2013

I agree the guy who bought the first batch did his home work for sure and practiced it a lot.
If we offer some chunks to small buyers what prevents a whale from separating his balance to smaller accounts and if band large balances why should we ban a whale that has 2M NXT which he bought yesterday for 300K$.
Either way someone will be unhappy about this.
If you prevent buy orders from being in the same block as the sell order, that will at least give everyone a chance. You can prevent phased transactions too, or at least ensure the "Ignis Token Sale" page also uses them. I don't think it's really acceptable to have an official "Ignis Token Sale" and encourage everyone to use it, when it puts buyers at a disadvantage and means they won't get any early tokens.

I think it will need a hard fork to change the NRS rules to prevent this happening again, but I don't see any technical or legal reason why that can't happen.
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Riker

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2017, 02:10:46 pm »

We believe he had a bot which listens to unconfirmed transactions, so when the buyer saw our approval transaction to our phased offer he quickly approved his phased buy either manually or automatically.
Since the matching of the offer and the buy occurred in the same block, users using the wallet UI did not even get a chance to see the offer.
There is no way we can block accounts from doing this. [...]
With transparent forging, can you predict which node will forge the next block, and send your transaction to that node directly so that bots listening to unconfirmed transactions won't see it? Perhaps modify the node so that it doesn't broadcast the transaction itself. (This wouldn't need a hard fork, but it would need a trusted node that will forge in the published window of time.)

Can you have the account which forges the block, reject any buy orders for sell orders in the same block? This would best be done as an option on any sell order, that all nodes were bound to respect, rather than as a special case for this ICO. In that case it would need a hard fork.

Did you anticipate this happening? If so, didn't it bother you? Why didn't you take steps to prevent it? If you didn't anticipate it, then is this unanticipated event a good reason to suspend the ICO until the issue is dealt with?

My impression is that people are deeply upset about this. It calls into question the whole notion of using Nxt, and by implication Ardor, for ICOs and crowd-funding. There is a risk of major damage to the Nxt brand which it may not recover from. I think you seriously need to think about suspending the ICO until you can fix it. (And by "fix it" I mean make the ICO available to people who are not running bots.)

The risk of a single whale getting the whole price level was anticipated of course as well as the risk of using phased transactions. This all has been discussed. Think what would have happened if a single whale would have bought the whole 60M in one minute.

See https://nxtwiki.org/wiki/FAQ
6.6 Is there a risk that a single large investor will fully buy the first price level and not let anyone else participate?[edit]
This risk exists like in any other token sale, and we cannot fully prevent it. We will try to make it difficult for a large investor to do so, by separating the sale of each price level to several smaller exchange offers which will be published without announcement of a specific block height. Also please consider that if someone does buy a large portion of the IGNIS tokens at one price level, they cannot sell it on to the buyers of the next price level due to the limitations imposed by the controllable currency.
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cromaclear

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2017, 02:11:52 pm »

let people buy whatever they want using all the legal means they can use (let be bots, better analysis or whatever).

you still have the snapshot option...if prices drops because this nonsense, the better for you because you can buy cheaper nxt for the snapshot and everybody will be happy
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Logan

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2017, 02:15:02 pm »

We believe he had a bot which listens to unconfirmed transactions, so when the buyer saw our approval transaction to our phased offer he quickly approved his phased buy either manually or automatically.
Since the matching of the offer and the buy occurred in the same block, users using the wallet UI did not even get a chance to see the offer.
There is no way we can block accounts from doing this. [...]
With transparent forging, can you predict which node will forge the next block, and send your transaction to that node directly so that bots listening to unconfirmed transactions won't see it? Perhaps modify the node so that it doesn't broadcast the transaction itself. (This wouldn't need a hard fork, but it would need a trusted node that will forge in the published window of time.)

Can you have the account which forges the block, reject any buy orders for sell orders in the same block? This would best be done as an option on any sell order, that all nodes were bound to respect, rather than as a special case for this ICO. In that case it would need a hard fork.

Did you anticipate this happening? If so, didn't it bother you? Why didn't you take steps to prevent it? If you didn't anticipate it, then is this unanticipated event a good reason to suspend the ICO until the issue is dealt with?

My impression is that people are deeply upset about this. It calls into question the whole notion of using Nxt, and by implication Ardor, for ICOs and crowd-funding. There is a risk of major damage to the Nxt brand which it may not recover from. I think you seriously need to think about suspending the ICO until you can fix it. (And by "fix it" I mean make the ICO available to people who are not running bots.)

The risk of a single whale getting the whole price level was anticipated of course as well as the risk of using phased transactions. This all has been discussed. Think what would have happened if a single whale would have bought the whole 60M in one minute.

See https://nxtwiki.org/wiki/FAQ
6.6 Is there a risk that a single large investor will fully buy the first price level and not let anyone else participate?[edit]
This risk exists like in any other token sale, and we cannot fully prevent it. We will try to make it difficult for a large investor to do so, by separating the sale of each price level to several smaller exchange offers which will be published without announcement of a specific block height. Also please consider that if someone does buy a large portion of the IGNIS tokens at one price level, they cannot sell it on to the buyers of the next price level due to the limitations imposed by the controllable currency.

Its not the problem, that one user got the whole chunk. The problem is, that for normal NRS users there is no way to participate, although this is the official distribution platform.
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Brangdon

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2017, 02:15:22 pm »

We believe he had a bot which listens to unconfirmed transactions, so when the buyer saw our approval transaction to our phased offer he quickly approved his phased buy either manually or automatically.
Since the matching of the offer and the buy occurred in the same block, users using the wallet UI did not even get a chance to see the offer.
There is no way we can block accounts from doing this. [...]
With transparent forging, can you predict which node will forge the next block, and send your transaction to that node directly so that bots listening to unconfirmed transactions won't see it? Perhaps modify the node so that it doesn't broadcast the transaction itself. (This wouldn't need a hard fork, but it would need a trusted node that will forge in the published window of time.)

Can you have the account which forges the block, reject any buy orders for sell orders in the same block? This would best be done as an option on any sell order, that all nodes were bound to respect, rather than as a special case for this ICO. In that case it would need a hard fork.

Did you anticipate this happening? If so, didn't it bother you? Why didn't you take steps to prevent it? If you didn't anticipate it, then is this unanticipated event a good reason to suspend the ICO until the issue is dealt with?

My impression is that people are deeply upset about this. It calls into question the whole notion of using Nxt, and by implication Ardor, for ICOs and crowd-funding. There is a risk of major damage to the Nxt brand which it may not recover from. I think you seriously need to think about suspending the ICO until you can fix it. (And by "fix it" I mean make the ICO available to people who are not running bots.)

The risk of a single whale getting the whole price level was anticipated of course as well as the risk of using phased transactions. This all has been discussed. Think what would have happened if a single whale would have bought the whole 60M in one minute.
But did you consider that they might use a bot to monitor unbroadcast transactions? If so, why didn't you do something about it? I've suggested two ways of preventing it.
[Edit] A third way would be to build the same facility into the "Ignis Token Sale" page. The important thing is that users of that page be on a level playing field with everyone else. At the moment, that page puts us at a disadvantage.
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Riker

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2017, 02:15:52 pm »

the man controlling the bot is risking his own money!!!he wanted all the Ignis because he trusts this project. He studied how to buy all those Ignis....

it is absolutly fair what he did!!!!

let him risk his own money...if ignis go south becuase one person wants to bet all his money buying all, ok, perfect...i will buy all the Ignis at 0 coins...if not, i will receive the snapshot

Indeed the buyer of the first round has risked NXT worth 300K$ because he trusts the community and Jelurida to deliver on their promises.
To put this in perspective, the whole funding raised by the NXT foundation in the last 3 years was less than 100K$ and the last donation campaign by the NXT foundation has raised less than 10K$ out of which 2.5K$ was donated by Jelurida and over 100$ by myself.

Bare in mind that we are competing with blockchain projects which raised dozens of millions.
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rihard1980@inbox.lv

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2017, 02:17:12 pm »

the man controlling the bot is risking his own money!!!he wanted all the Ignis because he trusts this project. He studied how to buy all those Ignis....

it is absolutly fair what he did!!!!

let him risk his own money...if ignis go south becuase one person wants to bet all his money buying all, ok, perfect...i will buy all the Ignis at 0 coins...if not, i will receive the snapshot

FAIR will be if he will buy this coins in real sale without cheating. but how he does it this NOT fair deal
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mister

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2017, 02:20:47 pm »

Thanks Riker for stepping forward for explaining,

Was it a bot that was listening the unconfirmed transactions? I don´t think so as there were phased transactions from that account starting on the 28th July in order to cover all possible blocks for the ICO time slot

This was the first transaction
https://nxtportal.org/nxt?requestType=getTransaction&transaction=9576724230702610082

The thing is that you tried to avoid this to happen and it did happen. I understand your struggle, as well as you understand how frustrating this was for potential investors.
It is ok to make mistakes, but it is too risky to keep on making them. It will happen in the next round, and in the next and finally a small chunk will be available to those who though not being whales they have enough technical knowledge to publish 45 phased transactions.

You know what it is going to be said from this ICO if it is not amended? Scam FUD, lack of experience from Jelurida to manage a company properly... I think we all don´t want to hear that, it was enough with the nxt launch in 2013

I agree the guy who bought the first batch did his home work for sure and practiced it a lot.
If we offer some chunks to small buyers what prevents a whale from separating his balance to smaller accounts and if band large balances why should we ban a whale that has 2M NXT which he bought yesterday for 300K$.
Either way someone will be unhappy about this.

Could be, but I believe that in crypto the more the merrier. The more distributed the harder for a whale to plunk the price. 5000 users will take care of their 1000 JLRDA funds better than 1 whale that historically sold most of their NXT (though he regrets about it).

It would be sad that this ICO turns into a whale hackaton
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Riker

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2017, 02:21:22 pm »

We believe he had a bot which listens to unconfirmed transactions, so when the buyer saw our approval transaction to our phased offer he quickly approved his phased buy either manually or automatically.
Since the matching of the offer and the buy occurred in the same block, users using the wallet UI did not even get a chance to see the offer.
There is no way we can block accounts from doing this. [...]
With transparent forging, can you predict which node will forge the next block, and send your transaction to that node directly so that bots listening to unconfirmed transactions won't see it? Perhaps modify the node so that it doesn't broadcast the transaction itself. (This wouldn't need a hard fork, but it would need a trusted node that will forge in the published window of time.)

Can you have the account which forges the block, reject any buy orders for sell orders in the same block? This would best be done as an option on any sell order, that all nodes were bound to respect, rather than as a special case for this ICO. In that case it would need a hard fork.

Did you anticipate this happening? If so, didn't it bother you? Why didn't you take steps to prevent it? If you didn't anticipate it, then is this unanticipated event a good reason to suspend the ICO until the issue is dealt with?

My impression is that people are deeply upset about this. It calls into question the whole notion of using Nxt, and by implication Ardor, for ICOs and crowd-funding. There is a risk of major damage to the Nxt brand which it may not recover from. I think you seriously need to think about suspending the ICO until you can fix it. (And by "fix it" I mean make the ICO available to people who are not running bots.)

The risk of a single whale getting the whole price level was anticipated of course as well as the risk of using phased transactions. This all has been discussed. Think what would have happened if a single whale would have bought the whole 60M in one minute.
But did you consider that they might use a bot to monitor unbroadcast transactions? If so, why didn't you do something about it? I've suggested two ways of preventing it.

Have to admit, for me the technique of listening to unconfirmed transactions and acting immediately wasn't on my list of concerns.
Frankly if we are looking at batches which go up in seconds there is no way to make them fare. Nodes with stronger CPU and better network connection and users with better tech skills will always have advantage in such a short time race.
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Riker

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2017, 02:25:36 pm »

As to the ICO page, it was designed to be user friendly for newbies, not as a launch pad for buying JLRDA in split second.
You have to realize that when designing it we had no idea if we are going to sell a single coin quickly or if had to beg users to buy it (like we had to do in previous fund raising campaigns)
So in a sense having a batch that is sold "too fast" is a good problem.
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Riker

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2017, 02:27:14 pm »

the man controlling the bot is risking his own money!!!he wanted all the Ignis because he trusts this project. He studied how to buy all those Ignis....

it is absolutly fair what he did!!!!

let him risk his own money...if ignis go south becuase one person wants to bet all his money buying all, ok, perfect...i will buy all the Ignis at 0 coins...if not, i will receive the snapshot

FAIR will be if he will buy this coins in real sale without cheating. but how he does it this NOT fair deal

Running a bot is not cheating, probably 80% of trades on crypto exchanges and fiat stock exchanges are performed by bots.
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Riker

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
« Reply #35 on: August 05, 2017, 02:28:56 pm »

Thanks Riker for stepping forward for explaining,

Was it a bot that was listening the unconfirmed transactions? I don´t think so as there were phased transactions from that account starting on the 28th July in order to cover all possible blocks for the ICO time slot

This was the first transaction
https://nxtportal.org/nxt?requestType=getTransaction&transaction=9576724230702610082

The thing is that you tried to avoid this to happen and it did happen. I understand your struggle, as well as you understand how frustrating this was for potential investors.
It is ok to make mistakes, but it is too risky to keep on making them. It will happen in the next round, and in the next and finally a small chunk will be available to those who though not being whales they have enough technical knowledge to publish 45 phased transactions.

You know what it is going to be said from this ICO if it is not amended? Scam FUD, lack of experience from Jelurida to manage a company properly... I think we all don´t want to hear that, it was enough with the nxt launch in 2013

I agree the guy who bought the first batch did his home work for sure and practiced it a lot.
If we offer some chunks to small buyers what prevents a whale from separating his balance to smaller accounts and if band large balances why should we ban a whale that has 2M NXT which he bought yesterday for 300K$.
Either way someone will be unhappy about this.

Could be, but I believe that in crypto the more the merrier. The more distributed the harder for a whale to plunk the price. 5000 users will take care of their 1000 JLRDA funds better than 1 whale that historically sold most of their NXT (though he regrets about it).

It would be sad that this ICO turns into a whale hackaton

I still predict this crowdsale will be sold to 1000's of users and the 500M distributed to existing NXT users will surely reach 1000's of users.
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Brangdon

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
« Reply #36 on: August 05, 2017, 02:28:56 pm »

We believe he had a bot which listens to unconfirmed transactions, so when the buyer saw our approval transaction to our phased offer he quickly approved his phased buy either manually or automatically.
Since the matching of the offer and the buy occurred in the same block, users using the wallet UI did not even get a chance to see the offer.
There is no way we can block accounts from doing this. [...]
With transparent forging, can you predict which node will forge the next block, and send your transaction to that node directly so that bots listening to unconfirmed transactions won't see it? Perhaps modify the node so that it doesn't broadcast the transaction itself. (This wouldn't need a hard fork, but it would need a trusted node that will forge in the published window of time.)

Can you have the account which forges the block, reject any buy orders for sell orders in the same block? This would best be done as an option on any sell order, that all nodes were bound to respect, rather than as a special case for this ICO. In that case it would need a hard fork.

Did you anticipate this happening? If so, didn't it bother you? Why didn't you take steps to prevent it? If you didn't anticipate it, then is this unanticipated event a good reason to suspend the ICO until the issue is dealt with?

My impression is that people are deeply upset about this. It calls into question the whole notion of using Nxt, and by implication Ardor, for ICOs and crowd-funding. There is a risk of major damage to the Nxt brand which it may not recover from. I think you seriously need to think about suspending the ICO until you can fix it. (And by "fix it" I mean make the ICO available to people who are not running bots.)

The risk of a single whale getting the whole price level was anticipated of course as well as the risk of using phased transactions. This all has been discussed. Think what would have happened if a single whale would have bought the whole 60M in one minute.
But did you consider that they might use a bot to monitor unbroadcast transactions? If so, why didn't you do something about it? I've suggested two ways of preventing it.

Have to admit, for me the technique of listening to unconfirmed transactions and acting immediately wasn't on my list of concerns.
Frankly if we are looking at batches which go up in seconds there is no way to make them fare. Nodes with stronger CPU and better network connection and users with better tech skills will always have advantage in such a short time race.
If you do as I suggest, and require that the buy order be in the next block, that would give everyone 60 seconds to respond and get order in. That should be long enough for most people, with reasonable CPU and network connections. We'll then be competing mainly on transaction fees.
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cromaclear

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
« Reply #37 on: August 05, 2017, 02:29:14 pm »

the man controlling the bot is risking his own money!!!he wanted all the Ignis because he trusts this project. He studied how to buy all those Ignis....

it is absolutly fair what he did!!!!

let him risk his own money...if ignis go south becuase one person wants to bet all his money buying all, ok, perfect...i will buy all the Ignis at 0 coins...if not, i will receive the snapshot

FAIR will be if he will buy this coins in real sale without cheating. but how he does it this NOT fair deal

there is no cheat because you could have done the same thing. he just was more clever than the rest of us.


SOLUTION: let's create a pool (like nxt leased to forge) in order to exploit this issue a compite with him....ignis will be distributed in accordance with nxt investment in this pool
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Riker

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
« Reply #38 on: August 05, 2017, 02:31:18 pm »

We believe he had a bot which listens to unconfirmed transactions, so when the buyer saw our approval transaction to our phased offer he quickly approved his phased buy either manually or automatically.
Since the matching of the offer and the buy occurred in the same block, users using the wallet UI did not even get a chance to see the offer.
There is no way we can block accounts from doing this. [...]
With transparent forging, can you predict which node will forge the next block, and send your transaction to that node directly so that bots listening to unconfirmed transactions won't see it? Perhaps modify the node so that it doesn't broadcast the transaction itself. (This wouldn't need a hard fork, but it would need a trusted node that will forge in the published window of time.)

Can you have the account which forges the block, reject any buy orders for sell orders in the same block? This would best be done as an option on any sell order, that all nodes were bound to respect, rather than as a special case for this ICO. In that case it would need a hard fork.

Did you anticipate this happening? If so, didn't it bother you? Why didn't you take steps to prevent it? If you didn't anticipate it, then is this unanticipated event a good reason to suspend the ICO until the issue is dealt with?

My impression is that people are deeply upset about this. It calls into question the whole notion of using Nxt, and by implication Ardor, for ICOs and crowd-funding. There is a risk of major damage to the Nxt brand which it may not recover from. I think you seriously need to think about suspending the ICO until you can fix it. (And by "fix it" I mean make the ICO available to people who are not running bots.)

The risk of a single whale getting the whole price level was anticipated of course as well as the risk of using phased transactions. This all has been discussed. Think what would have happened if a single whale would have bought the whole 60M in one minute.
But did you consider that they might use a bot to monitor unbroadcast transactions? If so, why didn't you do something about it? I've suggested two ways of preventing it.

Have to admit, for me the technique of listening to unconfirmed transactions and acting immediately wasn't on my list of concerns.
Frankly if we are looking at batches which go up in seconds there is no way to make them fare. Nodes with stronger CPU and better network connection and users with better tech skills will always have advantage in such a short time race.
If you do as I suggest, and require that the buy order be in the next block, that would give everyone 60 seconds to respond and get order in. That should be long enough for most people, with reasonable CPU and network connections. We'll then be competing mainly on transaction fees.

Fine, but what would prevent a whale from paying 2000 NXT transaction fee and buy the whole batch? This would still be just 0.1% fee for this whale.
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rihard1980@inbox.lv

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Re: Ignis Token Sale Progress
« Reply #39 on: August 05, 2017, 02:32:28 pm »

Is this final or will there be any reconsiderations if whales continue eating up all cheap NXT?

This ICO has been planned for several month. One whale has bought 1% of the tokens. Should we scrap the whole thing?

i think that no. but if you cant stop it he can take 12% or 30%. do you think that this is a good when so big capital is in one hands? may be you can change somthing in buy terminal, set captcha or somthing like this, enter one deal limits. becouse if sales will continioues as in first sale this will be looks like a charade. and peoples stops to trust to this.

Let's follow your logic:
A whale buys few more rounds as a result people lose trust in the token sale and no longer want to buy, since no one wants to buy, small investors can now buy as much as they like, problem solved.

to continue your logic: you dont want or cant do something for fair sale. then you can stop the sale and change the rules
-for 60m coins price 0.4 if you buy in one deal size is 2m or more
- for 80m coins price is 0.55 if you buy in one deal 100k to 2m ....

im not versus whales how many money they invest this is they problem. im for fair coin selling, without cheating, bots etc. for all comunity have a chance to get coins for lower price . but dont eat remains from whales table

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