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Author Topic: IGNIS ICO  (Read 17275 times)

neofelis

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IGNIS ICO
July 19, 2017, 02:51:30 pm

Looking at the schedule on https://www.jelurida.com/ico, what prevents some whale from scooping up all the cheap IGNIS in one fell swoop?  I am reminded of trying to buy concert tickets when they all get sold out in the first 30 seconds after they go on sale. 

Oh, and by the way, Slack still sucks.  I can't follow any conversations, and I don't really see any advantage over this forum.

schnidl

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Re: IGNIS ICO
July 19, 2017, 03:46:06 pm

Hate Slack too, very confusing. Cant imagine majority likes this kind of conversation ^^
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Re: IGNIS ICO
July 19, 2017, 05:09:32 pm

Looking at the schedule on https://www.jelurida.com/ico, what prevents some whale from scooping up all the cheap IGNIS in one fell swoop?  I am reminded of trying to buy concert tickets when they all get sold out in the first 30 seconds after they go on sale. 

I don't know if you can really do anything to prevent this.  You could maybe try and limit the number of IGNIS per account, however a whale could just split up their account into smaller accounts

The only thing I see is at least they can't turn around right away and try to sell the IGNIS for more since the Currency will not be tradable
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neofelis

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Re: IGNIS ICO
July 19, 2017, 06:38:20 pm

I agree.  No easy solution.  Better just hope a person can get some if they want.  I imagine anybody who has decided to buy JLRDA tokens will want to get them in the first stage.  That means a mad rush to buy them.  Maybe a lottery???  Send Team Jelurida a request and pick names from a hat?  Seems a bit old school.  This conversation may be moot as Jelurida has already published how they will do it and aren't likely to change things.  Should be interesting.

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Re: IGNIS ICO
July 19, 2017, 08:28:11 pm

Oh, and by the way, Slack still sucks.  I can't follow any conversations, and I don't really see any advantage over this forum.

Ok? Some people like it for live conversations instead of having to hit refresh on a forum. Advantages also include being able to send direct messages quickly. Some people also like being able to access different channels quickly. If you don't like it, that's ok, no one's forcing you to, just like how we don't force people on Reddit to come here and vice-versa, or people from any of the other channels people from the Nxt community is in. But I don't see the need to bring it up in this topic. It's not like the people in Slack had some special announcement for it in advance.

Anyway, to the actual topic


Looking at the schedule on https://www.jelurida.com/ico, what prevents some whale from scooping up all the cheap IGNIS in one fell swoop?  I am reminded of trying to buy concert tickets when they all get sold out in the first 30 seconds after they go on sale. 


Nothing at the moment. This is one thing that they did consider though I'm sure. But it's the same for other ICOs with caps set at bonuses. But yeah, as you mentioned, there's no easy solution. The pick names from a hat suggestion is an interesting idea, but then I think a lot of people claiming that Jelurida picked "favorites" or something like that. Someone brought up the idea of letting the community have the first go at it, but choosing who gets in and who doesn't is bound to get a lot of complaints on top of figuring out the criteria.

Sebastien256

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Re: IGNIS ICO
July 19, 2017, 10:01:30 pm

Too avoid scooping up all the cheap IGNIS and be fair to everyone, jelurida has to announce the exact block height of the JLRDA offering. Otherwise it won't be fair.

I guess this block height will be announce as we get closer to the ICO starting date.
Please drop your ideas concerning Nxt and/or NRS in this topic -> List of feature request for Nxt and/or NRS (with the full list in OP).

danp123

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Re: IGNIS ICO
July 20, 2017, 04:19:01 am

Good thing is that a new ETH ICO hack every day will probably dominate the crypto news leading up to the offering.  I'm not sure how much demand there will be, maybe we should be quiet.  But I think we'd see a ton of NXT being bought if people wanted it so bad.

How about take request from people who held NXT the longest first.
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neofelis

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Re: IGNIS ICO
July 21, 2017, 03:46:58 pm

OK, so I've been crunching some numbers and have come up with some scary results.  First off I want to say that Team Jelurida own IGNIS and ARDOR and have the final say how they choose to do things. They have never disappointed us as both NXT and ARDOR have strong followings and their value has increased significantly on CMC.

Looking again at https://www.jelurida.com/ico.....

If the IGNIS sale is successful, Jelurida will receive 394M Nxt and would be the biggest whale NXT has ever seen.  I fear this will make the value of NXT plummet as there would be a small consortium (Jelurida) with a stake big enough to collapse the value or destroy the blockchain at will.  Not that I think they would ever do that, but it is certainly not in the spirit of blockchain tech to have anybody with that kind of power.

Also, that's a whole lot of Nxt and it is quite likely that they will not be able to sell all the tokens, leaving Jelurida again in control of a dangerous amount of IGNIS and the above argument applies.

So how to distribute that remaining 500M IGNIS......(again, this is just me brainstorming as Team Jelurida is free to do whatever they wish, it's their baby).  So how about a sale just like BCNext had in 2013?  Advertise and collect Bitcoin from as many investors as possible and then allocate the IGNIS proportionally to these investors.  Reserve a small number of IGNIS for use by Jelurida (50M, enough to use for funding and still not be a threat).  Those 50M IGNIS plus the bitcoin from the crowdsale will hopefully be enough to compensate the developers.  Not to mention that everybody on Team Jelurida are already NXT and ARDOR whales.

I would like to see IGNIS survive and thrive from the very beginning and if any one person or small group of persons control a massive amount of IGNIS, other people will be less willing to invest.

Riker

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Re: IGNIS ICO
July 21, 2017, 03:53:22 pm

As written in the ICO page https://www.jelurida.com/ico
"Jelurida will keep as NXT 20% (but not more than 40 M NXT) of the NXT coins collected in the crowdsale. Jelurida will convert the rest of the collected NXT to fiat or BTC, but reserves the right to do so in portions, or at a later time depending on market conditions, and in general in a way that will maximize the amount of funding the company will eventually receive when converted to fiat currencies."
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Riker

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Re: IGNIS ICO
July 21, 2017, 03:56:20 pm

Good thing is that a new ETH ICO hack every day will probably dominate the crypto news leading up to the offering.  I'm not sure how much demand there will be, maybe we should be quiet.  But I think we'd see a ton of NXT being bought if people wanted it so bad.

How about take request from people who held NXT the longest first.

Can't do that technically. But it also doesn't make sense from other reasons, for example what if I held NXT for years but recently created a new account after shuffling, why should I be penalized?
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Riker

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Re: IGNIS ICO
July 21, 2017, 03:59:47 pm

Too avoid scooping up all the cheap IGNIS and be fair to everyone, jelurida has to announce the exact block height of the JLRDA offering. Otherwise it won't be fair.

I guess this block height will be announce as we get closer to the ICO starting date.

On the contrary, if we announce the block height in advance we are giving unfair advantage to anyone who is very technical and understand phased transactions.
See https://nxtwiki.org/wiki/How_Tx_Processing_Works#Transactions_Order_within_a_Block
We are thinking to split at least the first 60M Ignis batch into several exchange offers released at a somewhat unpredictable block height.
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neofelis

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Re: IGNIS ICO
July 21, 2017, 04:30:06 pm

As written in the ICO page https://www.jelurida.com/ico
"Jelurida will keep as NXT 20% (but not more than 40 M NXT) of the NXT coins collected in the crowdsale. Jelurida will convert the rest of the collected NXT to fiat or BTC, but reserves the right to do so in portions, or at a later time depending on market conditions, and in general in a way that will maximize the amount of funding the company will eventually receive when converted to fiat currencies."

I really like being able to express my ideas directly to a lead developer and founder of Jelurida and appreciate everybody's patience.  I'm pretty smart and professionally successful but I'm not a coder and so if some my ideas are not feasible, please have patience and don't spank me too much. :)

I think Jelurida will be forced to keep most of the Nxt they collect or else they will collapse the market almost immediately after the sale.  This was the reason I suggested using a different cryptocurrency to accomplish the sale.

Muenzpraeger

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Re: IGNIS ICO
July 21, 2017, 05:29:40 pm

Too avoid scooping up all the cheap IGNIS and be fair to everyone, jelurida has to announce the exact block height of the JLRDA offering. Otherwise it won't be fair.

I guess this block height will be announce as we get closer to the ICO starting date.

On the contrary, if we announce the block height in advance we are giving unfair advantage to anyone who is very technical and understand phased transactions.
We are thinking to split at least the first 60M Ignis batch into several exchange offers released at a somewhat unpredictable block height.

Let me see if I understand you correctly. When the ICO starts there will be only a fraction of the first batch available to exchange on the NXT wallet so that no whale can scoop everything in the first second?
However, are we supposed to manually check every block after the ICO has started if there's more JLRDA availabe? That sounds extremely inconvenient.

Please correct me, if I got this wrong.

danp123

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Re: IGNIS ICO
July 21, 2017, 05:34:02 pm

Good thing is that a new ETH ICO hack every day will probably dominate the crypto news leading up to the offering.  I'm not sure how much demand there will be, maybe we should be quiet.  But I think we'd see a ton of NXT being bought if people wanted it so bad.

How about take request from people who held NXT the longest first.

Can't do that technically. But it also doesn't make sense from other reasons, for example what if I held NXT for years but recently created a new account after shuffling, why should I be penalized?
Technically you're probably right, you can do that automated, but in theory you would sell first to old accounts and limited each sale to say X number of NXT.  Do that for a few days and then open it up.  Yes, some people would have multiple old accounts, but you would have someone creating a ton of accounts.

I really don't know how things will go, but it sounds like I'm not going to be quick enough to get in on the first round.  I really have no clue though.  .4 to 1.4 is a very wide margin though.
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Muenzpraeger

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Re: IGNIS ICO
July 21, 2017, 05:59:07 pm

How about guaranteeing each account created before the ICO was announced to be able to exchange up to 10k/20k/100k/you name it NXT to JLRDA? It would be an option-to-buy and benefit those who have supported NXT in the past.

I fear that you'll either need a bot, the fastest fingers or enough time to manually check the blocks the way it is planned.

Sebastien256

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Re: IGNIS ICO
July 21, 2017, 06:42:11 pm

Too avoid scooping up all the cheap IGNIS and be fair to everyone, jelurida has to announce the exact block height of the JLRDA offering. Otherwise it won't be fair.

I guess this block height will be announce as we get closer to the ICO starting date.

On the contrary, if we announce the block height in advance we are giving unfair advantage to anyone who is very technical and understand phased transactions.
See https://nxtwiki.org/wiki/How_Tx_Processing_Works#Transactions_Order_within_a_Block
We are thinking to split at least the first 60M Ignis batch into several exchange offers released at a somewhat unpredictable block height.

OK then, I did not thought of the possibility of phase transaction...

But at least you should announce when august 5 start, as this is different for every time zone.

How do we know there is no "Insider trading" that will know when the offering will be made?

Good idea to split the batch in any case.
Please drop your ideas concerning Nxt and/or NRS in this topic -> List of feature request for Nxt and/or NRS (with the full list in OP).

Sebastien256

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Re: IGNIS ICO
July 21, 2017, 06:46:55 pm

@Riker
What about doing a new version of NRS that randomly make the new offering automatically, where the "randomness" of the offering announcement is digitally verifiable.

I know it is additional work, but that would certainly avoid "insider trading" accusation.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2017, 06:50:06 pm by Sebastien256 »
Please drop your ideas concerning Nxt and/or NRS in this topic -> List of feature request for Nxt and/or NRS (with the full list in OP).

Riker

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Re: IGNIS ICO
July 21, 2017, 07:36:18 pm

@Riker
What about doing a new version of NRS that randomly make the new offering automatically, where the "randomness" of the offering announcement is digitally verifiable.

I know it is additional work, but that would certainly avoid "insider trading" accusation.

We already discussed this option. This bot will submit transactions to the blockchain so it is not part of the consensus but a client side application as such people will have to trust us that we indeed run it and we won't be able to prove it.
We like to make it simple, the current plan is to release the first price level of 60M in 12 batches of 5M each separated by roughly 12 hours, each transaction will be submitted manually and without announcing block heights in advance.
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Riker

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Re: IGNIS ICO
July 21, 2017, 07:46:51 pm

As written in the ICO page https://www.jelurida.com/ico
"Jelurida will keep as NXT 20% (but not more than 40 M NXT) of the NXT coins collected in the crowdsale. Jelurida will convert the rest of the collected NXT to fiat or BTC, but reserves the right to do so in portions, or at a later time depending on market conditions, and in general in a way that will maximize the amount of funding the company will eventually receive when converted to fiat currencies."

I really like being able to express my ideas directly to a lead developer and founder of Jelurida and appreciate everybody's patience.  I'm pretty smart and professionally successful but I'm not a coder and so if some my ideas are not feasible, please have patience and don't spank me too much. :)

I think Jelurida will be forced to keep most of the Nxt they collect or else they will collapse the market almost immediately after the sale.  This was the reason I suggested using a different cryptocurrency to accomplish the sale.

Didn't mean to criticize, if it sounds like this, please accept my apology.
The only realistic alternative for fund raising in NXT was to use Bitcoin but this will force us to build a complex and centralized ICO web site which will not only accept Bitcoin but also help investors initialize an NXT account and claim their stake. This is a complex, risky and time consuming process. Besides as NXT devs we like to eat our own dog food.

The reason we separated the ICO into several price levels over several weeks apart is to allow us to sell the NXT raised in step X to investors buying NXT in order to participate in step X+1
This way we don't have to dump all the NXT at once and we can sell gradually without causing too much sell pressure. NXT has enough liquidity to support this.
Meanwhile we will use the funds raised in step X to market step X+1 to users outside of the NXT community and perhaps even outside of the crypto circles.
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Public Key: D8311651 Key fingerprint: 0560 443B 035C EE08 0EC0  D2DD 275E 94A7 D831 1651

Riker

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Re: IGNIS ICO
July 21, 2017, 07:48:43 pm

Too avoid scooping up all the cheap IGNIS and be fair to everyone, jelurida has to announce the exact block height of the JLRDA offering. Otherwise it won't be fair.

I guess this block height will be announce as we get closer to the ICO starting date.

On the contrary, if we announce the block height in advance we are giving unfair advantage to anyone who is very technical and understand phased transactions.
We are thinking to split at least the first 60M Ignis batch into several exchange offers released at a somewhat unpredictable block height.

Let me see if I understand you correctly. When the ICO starts there will be only a fraction of the first batch available to exchange on the NXT wallet so that no whale can scoop everything in the first second?
However, are we supposed to manually check every block after the ICO has started if there's more JLRDA availabe? That sounds extremely inconvenient.

Please correct me, if I got this wrong.

You'll probably need to check manually in order not to provide unfair advantage to anyone.
NXT Core Dev
Account: NXT-HBFW-X8TE-WXPW-DZFAG
Public Key: D8311651 Key fingerprint: 0560 443B 035C EE08 0EC0  D2DD 275E 94A7 D831 1651
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